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***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by fred c dobbs on 15.08.14 23:25

@PeterMac wrote:{quote]When I was young my father said
'Son I have something to say'
And what he told me I'll never forget
Until my dying days

[Chorus:]
He said son you are a bachelor boy
And that's the way to stay
Son you'll be a bachelor boy
Until your dying days

When I was 16 I fell in love
With a girl as sweet as can be
But I remembered just in time
What my daddy said to me

[Chorus]

As time goes by I probably will
Meet a girl and fall in love
Then I'll get married have a wife and a child
And they'll be my turtle doves

But until then I'll be a bachelor boy
And that's the way I'll stay
Happy to be a bachelor boy
Until my dying days
[/quote]What are you saying ?that this song is some kind of evidence?Is being a Bachelor  now considered as something sinister?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by plebgate on 16.08.14 0:29

He's a born again Christian, we have heard it for years.

What I don't understand is how a Born Again Christian would be prepared to pose for those calenders every year.   My opinion, not bothered what anyone else thinks before I get the posts saying that it has nothing to do with Christianity blah blah.

I posted a few months back that the latest one was seen by me in the reduced section for 50p I think, could be £1.   Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Guest on 16.08.14 0:47

@Hicks wrote:At work today, during conversations about this topic, quite a few people said that they didn't believe the allegations against Cliff Richards. Moreover, the general opinion was that people who come forward laying claims of abuse do so hoping for financial gain. I have to say that it made me cross.

Imagine being sexually abused/raped as a child by a multi-millionaire, a celebrity who is well known, and adored by millions of fans. Not only that, the pervert can get the best legal representation money can buy. Would you dare come forward and speak out? I doubt it.

I think the police have played a blinder on this one. They made sure that the press were briefed, ready to get the news out. All they have to do is sit back and wait for the victims to come forward, and I gather some have already.

Yes, sad isn't it. People choose to wear industrial strength blindfolds rather than admit that someone whose records they listen to might be a perv. Fact is, many childhood heroes of mine are now zeros. I danced along to Gary Glitter records at birthday parties screaming 'Wanna be in my gang?', Rolf Harris shocked me to the core. But I had no surprise with Jimmy Saville, cos twenty years ago when I was 17 my Mum finally confessed that she never posted any of my Jim'll Fix It letters (I desperately wanted to do the flying trapeze) not because she thought I might be killed but because she'd always thought he was a dirty wrong un!! Anyway, my point being, anyone out there who was a diehard fan of anyone could bang on that these men were innocent because they were famous and successful, so they couldn't have done it. But bearing in mind, there is a little hurdle called EVIDENCE, it'd be (a) stupid and (b) swimming in that big wide river in Egypt, much like I reckon many diehard Cliff fans will paddling away right now. No smoke without fire, and there have been smoke signals coming from his direction for donkeys' years.

Bring on the justice.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aiyoyo on 16.08.14 0:48

I never understand the term 'born again' christian.
To me you are either a christian or you are not.
When you stopped believing, you stopped believing.
When you believed, you are a Christian.
Where does this born again derive from?

It's funny how you cannot become a born-again in anything except in Christianity.




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George Michael vs Cliff Richard back in 1999...

Post by missbeetle on 16.08.14 1:48



I've never understood the appeal of Cliff Richard - I've just checked out his calendars - they are so cheesy -

Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris - thankfully I did not grow up with their songs or television shows...

Michael Barrymore had largely escaped my notice, too - except when he slid off to Palmerston North under a cloud.

(I remember his leather Ralph Lauren sofas being up for sale when he scuttled back to the UK)


I've always had a soft spot for George Michael, though. He seems a kind man, and he is human.

Interesting choice of words regarding Cliff in the article above - 'heinous' and 'vile'.

'Singing hamsters threaten Sir Cliff' - crikey!

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Claire25 on 16.08.14 8:30

Police admit working with press...

http://news.sky.com/story/1319369/police-admission-over-cliff-richard-home-search

South Yorkshire Police have admitted working with the media before searching Sir Cliff Richard's home in Berkshire.
They said when they were contacted by BBC journalists with information about an investigation, they decided to "work with them in order to protect the integrity" of that probe.
They added: "Since the search took place a number of people have contacted the police to provide information and we must acknowledge that the media played a part in that, for which we are grateful".
Sir Cliff, 73, has said he did not know officers were planning to search his penthouse apartment on the Charters Estate in Sunningdale and only learnt about it through media reports.

Unmarked police cars leaving the Charters Estate
A search warrant was granted after a historical claim of sex assault was made involving a boy who was under the age of 16 at the time.
The accusation, which Sir Cliff has dismissed as "completely false", relates to an event held by American evangelist preacher Billy Graham in Sheffield in 1985.

Play video
Video: Police Statement On Cliff Richard
A total of eight officers from South Yorkshire and Thames Valley police forces spent about five hours at Sir Cliff's home on Thursday, leaving with a number of items at around 3.30pm.
No one was arrested and police stressed the investigation was in its "really early stages".
Detectives said a number of people had contacted them with information following the search.
In a statement issued on Thursday, Sir Cliff, who is in Portugal, said: "For many months I have been aware of allegations against me of historic impropriety which have been circulating online. The allegations are completely false.
"Up until now I have chosen not to dignify the false allegations with a response, as it would just give them more oxygen.
"However, the police attended my apartment in Berkshire today without notice, except, it would appear, to the press.
"I am not presently in the UK but it goes without saying that I will co-operate fully should the police wish to speak to me."
Sky's Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said the inquiry is not part of Operation Yewtree, Scotland Yard's investigation into historical sex crimes launched after the Jimmy Savile scandal.
Conservative MP Nigel Evans said "questions have got to be answered" over Sir Cliff's claims the press had been notified about the search.
Mr Evans, who was cleared of a string of alleged sex offences at a trial earlier this year, told Good Morning Britain: "It appears the press knew what was happening before he did.
"A press helicopter was up before the police even arrived - he is quite right to be angry about that. Questions have got to be answered."
Born Harry Webb in Lucknow, India, in 1940, Sir Cliff has become one of the most enduring pop stars of his era, with hits including Devil Woman, Living Doll and The Young Ones. He was knighted in 1995.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by canada12 on 16.08.14 8:39

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-way-the-police-have-treated-cliff-richard-is-completely-unacceptable-9672367.html

The way the police have treated Cliff Richard is completely unacceptable

Due process has been subverted in a case that raises urgent questions on civil liberties


Saturday 16 August 2014

People believe that where there’s smoke there’s fire, but sometimes there is just a smoke machine.

By treating Cliff Richard as though he were a bank robber or a mass murderer, the police from Thames Valley and South Yorkshire, aided and abetted by the BBC and a Sheffield lay justice, have blasted his reputation around the world without giving him the first and most basic right to refute the allegation.

Last year, apparently, a complaint was made to police that the singer had indecently assaulted a youth in Sheffield a quarter of a century ago. The police had a duty to investigate, seek any corroborating evidence, and then – and only if they had reasonable grounds to suspect him of committing an offence – to give him the opportunity to refute those suspicions before a decision to charge is made.

But here, police subverted due process by waiting until Richard had left for vacation, and then orchestrating massive publicity for the raid on his house, before making any request for interview and before any question could arise of arresting or charging him.

Police initially denied “leaking” the raid, but South Yorkshire Police finally confirmed yesterday afternoon that they had been “working with a media outlet” – presumably the BBC – about the investigation. They also claimed “a number of people” had come forward with more information after seeing coverage of the operation – which leads one to suspect that this was the improper purpose behind leaking the operation in the first place. This alone calls for an independent inquiry.

The BBC and others were present when the five police cars arrived at Richard’s home, and helicopters were already clattering overhead. Police codes require that “searches must be conducted with due consideration for the property and privacy of the occupier and with no more disturbance than necessary” – here, the media were tipped off well ahead of time, and a smug officer read to the cameras a prepared press statement while the search was going on.

The police, by choosing to raid the property in broad daylight where they must have known its occupant was away, deliberately chose to defame him. Police codes also insist that “the officer in charge of the search shall first try to communicate with the occupier” but of course no such attempt was made – Richard first heard of the search when his lawyers called him after watching it on television.

Why was a search warrant granted? The law (the 1984 Police and Criminal Evidence Act) requires police to satisfy a justice of the peace not only that there are reasonable grounds for believing an offence has been committed (if so, why had he not already been arrested?), but that there is material on the premises both relevant and of substantial value (to prove an indecent assault 25 years ago?).

Moreover, the warrant should only be issued if it is “not practicable to communicate” with the owner of the premises – and it would be a very dumb police force indeed that could find no way of contacting Cliff Richard. The police Codes exude concern that powers of search “be used fairly, responsibly, with respect for occupiers of premises being searched” – this search was conducted without any fairness or respect at all, other than for the media who were given every opportunity to film the bags of “evidence” being taken away.

This in itself is an interesting example of how historic English liberties – the rule against “general search warrants” achieved by John Wilkes in the 18th century – are now ignored. Although there is a section of the law headed “Search warrants – Safeguards” and a provision which requires police when applying for a warrant to actually identify the article they are looking for, this is routinely ignored. Here the police searched for five hours and took whatever they wanted.

This behaviour is unacceptable. The lay justice system has long been the Achilles heel of our civil liberties: many of these amateurs simply rubber stamp police requests. It is not known who issued this warrant (although the High Court has held that the identities of JPs should be made public).

What qualifications did he or she have and what steps were taken to protect the occupier’s privacy? What justification did the police give for this general search, with world-wide publicity? Was there any questioning of the police, so as to ensure that they could identify what they were looking for, and that it had “substantial value” for a prosecution? How was the Justice of the Peace satisfied that this whole exercise was not an improper means to publicise an uncorroborated allegation against the singer, in the hope of “shaking the tree” to attract further allegations which might give it some credibility? It is time that police were required, other than in emergencies, to obtain search warrants from circuit judges, who are alert to civil liberties.

What will happen now? If the outrageous treatment of Paul Gambuccini and Jimmy Tarbuck is any guide, Cliff Richard will remain in a cruel limbo for 18 months or so until the police and the CPS decide whether to charge him. This has been one of the most intolerable features of other high-profile arrests for "historic" offences, namely the inability of police and prosecutors to deliver Magna Carta’s truly historic promise that justice will not be delayed.

The CPS has taken up to 2 years to tell journalists like Patrick Foster that they will not be prosecuted, after unnecessary dawn raids, and publicity every time they are bailed. This lack of care for their liberty is amoral, because it subjects them to drawn-out psychological cruelty. If the CPS cannot decide whether to prosecute 3 months after receiving the police file, it should not prosecute at all.

A case like that of Cliff Richard could not happen in most European countries, where time limits prevent prosecutions of most sexual offences after a lapse of 10 years. Certainly after 25 years, fair trial becomes very difficult, as memories dim, alibi witnesses die and records disappear.

That does not necessarily mean that a prosecution is unjustified, especially in the case of those in positions of authority (priests, teachers, politicians etc) but it does require extra vigilance by law enforcement authorities to ensure that those under investigation do not have their names prematurely besmirched, and that they be given a fair opportunity to refute allegations before they are brought to court.

The police behaviour is also in plain breach of the privacy provisions of article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights. But this case involves good old English civil liberties, laid down not 25 years but 250 years ago, in the course of a battle between John Wilkes and the government of Geroge III. The Chief Justice then declared that an Englishman’s home was his castle – which must come as news to the South Yorkshire and Thames Valley police.

It is clear from their behaviour that an Englishman’s home is no longer a castle – even when, in Cliff Richard’s case, it is.

Geoffrey Robertson QC’s latest book is Stephen Ward was Innocent, OK

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aquila on 16.08.14 9:11

The article in the Independent really is food for thought.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aiyoyo on 16.08.14 9:21


He would have preferred the Police to have warned him first. Priceless!
So that he could get rid of evidence first ?

This is what happened when the man is wealthy, can afford to hire the best lawyer and PR publicist to become their mouthpiece.
They do moan a lot, it's their money talking now.

The article is full of heavy criticism of the Police.
He is not the first and wont be the last that Police keep to their practice of raiding owner-absent property.

Michael Jackson's home was raided when he wasn't there.


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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aiyoyo on 16.08.14 9:35

@aquila wrote:The article in the Independent really is food for thought.

Moreover, the warrant should only be issued if it is “not practicable to communicate” with the owner of the premises – and it would be a very dumb police force indeed that could find no way of contacting Cliff Richard. The police Codes exude concern that powers of search “be used fairly, responsibly, with respect for occupiers of premises being searched” – this search was conducted without any fairness or respect at all, other than for the media who were given every opportunity to film the bags of “evidence” being taken away.

This in itself is an interesting example of how historic English liberties – the rule against “general search warrants” achieved by John Wilkes in the 18th century – are now ignored. Although there is a section of the law headed “Search warrants – Safeguards” and a provision which requires police when applying for a warrant to actually identify the article they are looking for, this is routinely ignored. Here the police searched for five hours and took whatever they wanted.

This behaviour is unacceptable. The lay justice system has long been the Achilles heel of our civil liberties: many of these amateurs simply rubber stamp police requests. It is not known who issued this warrant (although the High Court has held that the identities of JPs should be made public).

It really is?
If not carefully handled this could result in a turn of power play here.

It's clear CR uses his wealth and celebrity status to optimise his complaint - criticising the Police, the Press and the CPS. Going even further to say that the name of the JPs who granted the warrant should be made public. Priceless! What did he want to do with this knowledge?

Pull connection/pull string somewhere and get it obstructed or rescinded?




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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aquila on 16.08.14 9:35

Well it's certainly going to be interesting to see it discussed in Westminster (that institute we know is the model of morality  titter ).

MP's are already crying 'questions must be asked'.

There is much more to the actions of the police to involve the media than meets the eye. Who knows, even Hacked Off might get a little platform.

Pea soup anyone?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Woofer on 16.08.14 9:37

Martin Brunt said it`s not part of Operation Yewtree.
 
Could it be part of Operation Fernbridge which I believe is the Elm House investigation?

I`m sure Cliff won`t want Nigel Evans speaking up for him - that`ll stir up suspicions even more.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aiyoyo on 16.08.14 9:40

.........in the hope of “shaking the tree” to attract further allegations which might give it some credibility?

Revelation moment.

Attack is best defence.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by PeterMac on 16.08.14 9:49

What justification did the police give for this general search, with world-wide publicity?
Was there any questioning of the police, so as to ensure that they could identify what they were looking for, and that it had “substantial value” for a prosecution?
How was the Justice of the Peace satisfied that this whole exercise was not an improper means to publicise an uncorroborated allegation against the singer, in the hope of “shaking the tree” to attract further allegations which might give it some credibility?

Very dangerous questions to ask
He may find there was a full answer to every one, an answer so complete as to make a successful or even credible defence almost impossible.
Does he really think the most junior member of the Bench would be asked to sign this ?
Does he not understand that two police Forces were involved and that planing must have been going on for months ?
Does he not know how the police liaise with the CPS before many of these operations.
Why does he not think it possible that some of the information came FROM the BBC, or other news media.

Methinks he protesteth too much - at this stage.


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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aiyoyo on 16.08.14 9:55

@Woofer wrote:Martin Brunt said it`s not part of Operation Yewtree.
 
Could it be part of Operation Fernbridge which I believe is the Elm House investigation?

I`m sure Cliff won`t want Nigel Evans speaking up for him - that`ll stir up suspicions even more.


Enlighten me please.
What is the different between Op Yewtree and Op Fernbridge?

I thought those are operation code names Police pulled out of Harry Potter's type of sorting hat.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aquila on 16.08.14 9:58

It must also be a bit tricky when a person holds a passport for a country with no extradition treaty. I wonder how this will pan out in the future when interviews are necessary.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by aiyoyo on 16.08.14 10:02

@PeterMac wrote:
What justification did the police give for this general search, with world-wide publicity?
Was there any questioning of the police, so as to ensure that they could identify what they were looking for, and that it had “substantial value” for a prosecution?
How was the Justice of the Peace satisfied that this whole exercise was not an improper means to publicise an uncorroborated allegation against the singer, in the hope of “shaking the tree” to attract further allegations which might give it some credibility?

Very dangerous questions to ask
He may find there was a full answer to every one, an answer so complete as to make a successful or even credible defence almost impossible.
Does he really think the most junior member of the Bench would be asked to sign this ?
Does he not understand that two police Forces were involved and that planing must have been going on for months ?
Does he not know how the police liaise with the CPS before many of these operations.
Why does he not think it possible that some of the information came FROM the BBC, or other news media.

Methinks he protesteth too much - at this stage.



I think so too!  OTT protest in fact.

He definitely knew, or at the very least expected this to happen, since he got lawyered ahead of time.
Unless he believes he's invincible, then I don't understand the lawyering up
He would be stupid to believe he's untouchable, post Rolf Harris.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by PeterMac on 16.08.14 10:23

@aiyoyo wrote:
What is the different between Op Yewtree and Op Fernbridge?
I thought those are operation code names Police pulled out of Harry Potter's type of sorting hat.

Operation Yewtree is a police investigation into sexual abuse allegations, predominantly the abuse of children, against the British media personality Jimmy Savile and others. The investigation, led by the Metropolitan Police Service, started in October 2012. After a period of assessment it became a full criminal investigation, involving inquiries into living people as well as Savile.
So far Harris and the DJ have been captured by this operation.

An investigation, Operation Fairbank, which was led by the Metropolitan Police Service, started in late 2012. It focussed on Elm Tree Boarding House. The investigation was a "scoping exercise" aimed at a "preliminary assessment of the evidence rather than a formal inquiry". The existence of the operation was confirmed on 12 December 2012, after operating in secret for several weeks.
A full criminal investigation, Operation Fernbridge, was launched in February 2013 as a result of allegations arising from Operation Fairbank. The allegations of an establishment paedophile ring are part of a complex multi-agency investigation.
So far no one has been prosecuted - so far as I know.

There may be overlap, but not necessarily.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Woofer on 16.08.14 10:30

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Martin Brunt said it`s not part of Operation Yewtree.
 
Could it be part of Operation Fernbridge which I believe is the Elm House investigation?

I`m sure Cliff won`t want Nigel Evans speaking up for him - that`ll stir up suspicions even more.


Enlighten me please.
What is the different between Op Yewtree and Op Fernbridge?

I thought those are operation code names Police pulled out of Harry Potter's type of sorting hat.
 
Elm Guest House child abuse scandal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 
The Elm Guest House child abuse scandal arose from claims of sexual abuse and the grooming of children by prominent British men, including politicians, at parties held at the former Elm Guest House in Rocks Lane, near Barnes Common in South West London during the late 1970s and 1980s.
An investigation, Operation Fairbank, which was led by the Metropolitan Police Service, started in late 2012. The investigation was a "scoping exercise" aimed at a "preliminary assessment of the evidence rather than a formal inquiry". The existence of the operation was confirmed on 12 December 2012, after operating in secret for several weeks. A full criminal investigation, Operation Fernbridge, was launched in February 2013 as a result of allegations arising from Operation Fairbank. The allegations of an establishment paedophile ring are part of a complex multi-agency investigation.
Prominent people who attended parties at Elm Guest House are reported to have included the Liberal MP Cyril Smith and the Soviet spy Anthony Blunt. According to The Independent, other alleged visitors to the guesthouse include the former British diplomat Sir Peter Hayman, as well as a Sinn Féin politician, a Labour MP, and several Conservative politicians.
In addition to eight guest rooms, facilities at Elm Guest House included a sauna, solarium and video studio. The Edwardian house is now a private residence and the current occupants are not connected to the allegations.
 
 
 
 
Operation Yewtree
 
 
 
Operation Yewtree is a police investigation into sexual abuse allegations, predominantly the abuse of children, against the British media personality Jimmy Savile and others. The investigation, led by the Metropolitan Police Service, started in October 2012. After a period of assessment it became a full criminal investigation, involving inquiries into living people as well as Savile.
On 19 October 2012 the Metropolitan Police reported that more than 400 lines of enquiry had been assessed and over 200 potential victims had been identified. By 19 December, eight people had been questioned; the total number of alleged victims was 589, of whom 450 alleged abuse by Savile. The report of the investigations into the activities of Savile himself was published, as Giving Victims a Voice, in January 2013. Operation Yewtree continued as an investigation into others, some but not all linked with Savile.
 
P.S. Whoops, didn`t see your post PM. I`ll leave the Wiki description anyway.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Woofer on 16.08.14 10:42

Anyway - just like to say that I don`t believe Cliff would do, or have done, the awful things suggested because he is a Christian.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by nomendelta on 16.08.14 10:44

@Woofer wrote:Anyway - just like to say that I don`t believe Cliff would do, or have done, the awful things suggested because he is a Christian.

Yes, because Christians NEVER do anything wrong, do they?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Woofer on 16.08.14 10:46

@nomendelta wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Anyway - just like to say that I don`t believe Cliff would do, or have done, the awful things suggested because he is a Christian.

Yes, because Christians NEVER do anything wrong, do they?

Course not - don` cha know they have the monopoly on goodness.

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by PeterMac on 16.08.14 10:50

Aren't Catholic Priests Christians ?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Woofer on 16.08.14 10:54

@PeterMac wrote:Aren't Catholic Priests Christians ?

Oh you mean like Father John McElynn?

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Re: ***NEW***Cliff Richard reinterviewed by police [BBC News, 5 Nov] (was: Sir Cliff breaking news!)

Post by Snifferdog on 16.08.14 11:32

@aiyoyo wrote:I never understand the term 'born again' christian.
To me you are either a christian or you are not.
When you stopped believing, you stopped believing.
When you believed, you are a Christian.
Where does this born again derive from?

It's funny how you cannot become a born-again in anything except in Christianity.


The Greek/English translation should read; "Born from above", not born again, as "we are only born once".
In other words, you have to be born with a Soul from God, to be a child/son of God. 
It is not necessary to be a member of a church to be a child of God, just to have faith or to believe in Gods promise to His children. (Church is just another word for a community of people). For my part, I avoid them all, as they have by and large, been infiltrated and run as money making rackets, often twisting Gods words in the process.
We saw the same behaviour in the Garden of Adam and Eve, where the 'serpent' also translated from the Hebrew word Nachash translates to English as "whisperer, beguiling deceiver, snake, serpent", in other words, an evil, sneaky, low life, murdering liar. In Revelations we are told to come out of her, (the established churches) 'so that we partake not of her sins.'
Christianity is only a name, which has come to mean something else than a believer in Christs promise. Names are just names, and therefore mean nothing, unless ones heart is in the right place.
It is my belief that Nachash seduced Eve by deception. Eve thereafter had sexual relations with Adam. Two sons (twins), were born to Eve, one from Nachash, and one from Adam. Cain, who did the works of his father, as do Nachash's descendants do the work of there father to this day, and we can recognise them by their works/doings. Cain, offspring of Nachash and Eve, murdered his brother Abel. God put a 'mark' on Cain, so that we, may recognise him. Thereafter, Cain took himself a wife in the land of Nod, then to Esau, who married a Canaanite, through to the murderers of the Prophets, right to the Pharisees, who Christ tells us the Pharisees, who loved stonings, sacrifices, filth, debauchery, and putting millstones around peoples necks by their many laws, these changed Gods Biblical laws to suit their own ends, Christ said 'they were murders from the beginning, and did the works of their father the Devil, descended through their forefather Cain'. (You will Never be taught any of these truths in any church!). These descendants of Nachash do not have God our Fathers soul in them, do the works of their father, the devil, and therefore, 'Are not born from above'. We can see that these have taken over the congregations, throughout the ages, up until this day, as was the case in Christs day.
The descendants of Nachash who Christ said "do the works of their father, the devil", these have ruled the earth, and Christian churches, since Christ was crucified, and continue to do so to this day.

____________________
“‘Conspiracy stuff’ is now shorthand for unspeakable truth.”
– Gore Vidal

Snifferdog

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