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Terminally McCanned?

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:47 am

@ultimaThule wrote:
@jeanmonroe wrote:Rachael Oldfield:

" if Madeleine had accidentally been bumped on the head or you know whatever the theories are supposed to be, erm you know, there were plenty of people there who could of you know, tried to REVIVE a child, erm”.
-----------------------------------------------

Re: my earlier post on Ms Richardson.

(revealed the cause of death was an "epidural hematoma due to blunt impact to the head")

So not sure why RO would have said 'BEEN' (bumped ON the head)

Sounds like a 'diliberate' act rather than 'an accidental 'bump' on the head'.

Surely she would have said "if Madeleine had accidentally been bumped on the her head or you know WHATEVER........'

Well i, for one, think her 'choice' of words, is ODD!
Blunt force trauma to the side of the head is a common cause of epidural hematoma.  

The slogan is 'one punch can kill' and, at the time of writing, numerous convicted felons are serving time for murder and manslaughter because they threw 'one punch' at their victims.

That said, where a child has died as result of accidentally hitting their head on an unforgiving surface no parent or carer should have need to fear the consequences of reporting the death to the relevant authorities, even in cases where death is not discovered until some hours after the event.  

Similarly, where death has occurred as a result of swallowing substances such as sedative/sleeping drugs which are delivered in tablet or liquid form and which a small child has mistaken for sweets/treats, there should be no fear of reporting the event to the relevant authorities. 

It's a fact that accidents happen and, where fatal accidents happen to children, authorities worldwide recognise the need for sensitivity with regard to the feelings of their parents/carers/guardians albeit, as in all cases of unexpected death, there may be need for autopsy to confirm the cause.  Although the police may be involved at an early stage, punitive action in cases of accidental death is rarely taken because it is also recognised that the guilt felt by those who hold themselves responsible for failing to prevent accident to a child in their care is punishment enough.

Nicely said UT.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Irisheyes on Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:21 am

dantezebu wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
@Irisheyes wrote:The main reason to avoid an autopsy is sedation imo.

But sedation with something that would not normally be given to a child.
Not calpol, not phergan or other antihistamines.
There could have been a legitimate reason for giving these.
Death from calpol (paracetemol) takes days from liver failure, horrible.
Maddie could have hayfever and that could be used as an excuse for the antihistamines ( the puffy eyes in some photos could be an indication of this).

And Gerry had TERFENADINE (Seldane in the United States, Triludan in the United Kingdom, and Teldane in Australia) which was so dangerous that it was withdrawn in the 1990s
Why he had it we may never know.
If he had used that on Madeleine he would have been guilty, not only of neglect, but of something much more serious.
Enough reason to avoid a post mortem and toxicology ?
And the twins were comatose, almost certainly sedated, as the McCanns eventually admitted after a year of denials and anger at the suggestion !
But they never followed it through.

This is just my current opinion only:
My concern with the twins being sedated as evidence that Maddie had died as a result of sedation is exactly that, the twins were almost definately sedatated.
If Maddie had died as a result of sedation that would be good reason NOT to sedate the remaining two children.
Firstly, if it had been an unexpected reaction to a drug (as opposed to OD) then there would be the risk of the same happening to either one or both of the twins. These reactions are usually caused by an abnormality in metabolising the drug and are often genetic.
Secondly, it would point directly to sedation as an element in the whole scenario. At the same time as dispposing of Maddies body I think the sedative drugs would have been well disposed of too.
Thirdly, although the caring parents or any of the other trained medical professionals did not seek assessment and treatment for the twins, they could not count on the fact that the police would not notice the condition of the twins and them themselves take action.
Fouthly, any unexpected drugs found in Maddies system could easily be explained away by accidental ingestion. It would be easier to stage a scene of empty bottle/ pill packet than a scene of adbuction.

My thoughts are that the twins were sedated on the night of the third possibly so that that Act 1, Scene 1 could go ahead without the twins witnessing any of the play and this becoming actual witnesses. And also because an awake twin crying would attract attention to the flat and deter the "abductor", when they needed a calm quiet set.



But she wouldnt have to have died from a reaction to the drugs. I think it is more likely that it caused her to be drowsy and disorientated when she woke and was a contributing factor in the fall behind the sofa. If there was an autopsy which pointed to sedation it may have been explained away in one child, but if the pj then tested all the kids and found the same levels how would they explain that.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by ultimaThule on Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:37 am

As far as I'm aware, although Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine in that and one other area in apartment 5A, there is no evidence of a 'fall behind the sofa'.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by kevmack on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:01 am

It's a fact that accidents happen and, where fatal accidents happen to children, authorities worldwide recognise the need for sensitivity with regard to the feelings of their parents/carers/guardians albeit, as in all cases of unexpected death, there may be need for autopsy to confirm the cause.  Although the police may be involved at an early stage, punitive action in cases of accidental death is rarely taken because it is also recognised that the guilt felt by those who hold themselves responsible for failing to prevent accident to a child in their care is punishment enough.


But when there is neglect involved, and a child has died, that will lead to a custodial sentence.  I'm thinking about the little girl who died of smoke inhalation as a result of a faulty electrical socket that started a very small fire and the child had been locked in the room as her mother had been summoned to family court about another child, iirc she got 7 years!

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:03 am

@ultimaThule wrote:As far as I'm aware, although Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine in that and one other area in apartment 5A, there is no evidence of a 'fall behind the sofa'.
***
I agree. There's only evidence of "death" behind the sofa.

However, I do see Dantzebu Irisheyes' reasoning too.
An autopsy, unavoidable in an unexpected death, would have found sedatives [if there were any]. That would IMO indeed automatically lead to a check on all other children; the twins to start with.
This being a motive for "all" to co-operate / collaborate in the cover-up?

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:05 am

@Irisheyes wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
@Irisheyes wrote:The main reason to avoid an autopsy is sedation imo.

But sedation with something that would not normally be given to a child.
Not calpol, not phergan or other antihistamines.
There could have been a legitimate reason for giving these.
Death from calpol (paracetemol) takes days from liver failure, horrible.
Maddie could have hayfever and that could be used as an excuse for the antihistamines ( the puffy eyes in some photos could be an indication of this).

And Gerry had TERFENADINE (Seldane in the United States, Triludan in the United Kingdom, and Teldane in Australia) which was so dangerous that it was withdrawn in the 1990s
Why he had it we may never know.
If he had used that on Madeleine he would have been guilty, not only of neglect, but of something much more serious.
Enough reason to avoid a post mortem and toxicology ?
And the twins were comatose, almost certainly sedated, as the McCanns eventually admitted after a year of denials and anger at the suggestion !
But they never followed it through.

This is just my current opinion only:
My concern with the twins being sedated as evidence that Maddie had died as a result of sedation is exactly that, the twins were almost definately sedatated.
If Maddie had died as a result of sedation that would be good reason NOT to sedate the remaining two children.
Firstly, if it had been an unexpected reaction to a drug (as opposed to OD) then there would be the risk of the same happening to either one or both of the twins. These reactions are usually caused by an abnormality in metabolising the drug and are often genetic.
Secondly, it would point directly to sedation as an element in the whole scenario. At the same time as dispposing of Maddies body I think the sedative drugs would have been well disposed of too.
Thirdly, although the caring parents or any of the other trained medical professionals did not seek assessment and treatment for the twins, they could not count on the fact that the police would not notice the condition of the twins and them themselves take action.
Fouthly, any unexpected drugs found in Maddies system could easily be explained away by accidental ingestion. It would be easier to stage a scene of empty bottle/ pill packet than a scene of adbuction.

My thoughts are that the twins were sedated on the night of the third possibly so that that Act 1, Scene 1 could go ahead without the twins witnessing any of the play and this becoming actual witnesses. And also because an awake twin crying would attract attention to the flat and deter the "abductor", when they needed a calm quiet set.



But she wouldnt have to have died from a reaction to the drugs. I think it is more likely that it caused her to be drowsy and disorientated when she woke and was a contributing factor in the fall behind the sofa. If there was an autopsy which pointed to sedation it may have been explained away in one child, but if the pj then tested all the kids and found the same levels how would they explain that.

The statistics for death from low hight falls in children point to it being a very rare occurence. I don't have time now but will post them later.
Also I am assuming that the toxicology results from a PM on Maddie would take some time to come back. Usually 2 weeks in the UK. If they were positive thus arousing suspicion of sedation of the other children, this would be plenty of time for any drug to be eliminated from their system. Hair tests are specific for certain drugs and usually for chronic ingestion. Hair tests wouldn't be available for testing for antihistamnes/calplol.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Cristobell on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:42 am

If the reason for Madeleine's demise lies in sedation, then why would they risk sedating the twins? The only logical explanation can be that all three were 'sedated' at the same time, ergo everything happened on the night of the 3rd. If you have drugged your children and one dies you would not risk it again with the others. You would simply never do it again, especially on a night when your apartment would be buzzing with police.

Recklessness and risk tasking feature highly in psychopathy (if the roots lie there) but even if they detached themselves from the risks to the children, a second death/disappearance would have been a disaster too far.

Sticking with everything happening on the night of 3rd May, why then have their friends stuck so rigidly to their stories, and why has Gerry reminded them of the 'collective decision'. Everytime you think you have sussed out what happened, there are niggling questions that won't go away. No wonder this case is so endlessly intriguing, the full facts may stun us all!

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Newintown on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:57 am

@kimHager wrote:Exactly PeterMac  my thoughts too was they cashed in. I just have a hard time thinking the dreaded M word.... I've thought accident but that doesn't need covering up.... Nothing about this case makes sense... Except in AC/DC's words.. Come on come on listen to the money talk...

I find some of these posts hard to follow as I'm not up to speed with them 24/7, so I have to ask you what AC/DC means, sorry if it's obvious to most , but not me being a sandwich short of a picnic!  smilie

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by kevmack on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:03 am

@Newintown wrote:
@kimHager wrote:Exactly PeterMac  my thoughts too was they cashed in. I just have a hard time thinking the dreaded M word.... I've thought accident but that doesn't need covering up.... Nothing about this case makes sense... Except in AC/DC's words.. Come on come on listen to the money talk...

I find some of these posts hard to follow as I'm not up to speed with them 24/7, so I have to ask you what AC/DC means, sorry if it's obvious to most , but not me being a sandwich short of a picnic!  smilie
AC/DC the Rock band, other tunes such as Highway to Hell, Whole Lotta Rosie.  One of the guitarists is Angus Young, famed for wearing a schoolboy outfit on stage, still does even though he is in his late 50's

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by ultimaThule on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:21 am

Châtelaine wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:As far as I'm aware, although Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine in that and one other area in apartment 5A, there is no evidence of a 'fall behind the sofa'.
***
I agree. There's only evidence of "death" behind the sofa.

However, I do see Dantzebu Irisheyes' reasoning too.
An autopsy, unavoidable in an unexpected death, would have found sedatives [if there were any]. That would IMO indeed automatically lead to a check on all other children; the twins to start with.
This being a motive for "all" to co-operate / collaborate in the cover-up?
As you know, the possibility of all of the group's children being regularly sedated at night was a motive I put forward a few days ago as reason for a 'collective' cover up, Chatelaine.

However, as dantezebu has said, depending on the drug(s) ingested or injected, it can take some time for tox results to come back and, when unexpected death occurs abroad, in the absence of immediately identifiable cause(s) it's often the case that the body is released, pending tox/other results, to the family for repatriation in the expectation that a further pm will take place in the deceased's home country.

In these circumstances had, say, the child died on 3rd May with death being reported on that date it's highly unlikely there would have been any requirement for other members of the holiday party to either come to the attention of any authorities or to extend their stay and, IMO, it's probable the grieving parents would have been free to accompany their child's body home on the Monday or Tuesday of the following week.

I have always inclined to the view that Madeleine McCann died of non-accidental injury, or injuries, at the hands of a family member or someone who was known to her and, if this were the case, it may seem inexplicable that anyone not directly implicated in her death would conspire to conceal her body.

But, as I've always maintained, in common with the McCanns, IMO the 3 other couples who formed part of the holidaying group are not the sharpest tools in the box and, while they may have collectively accumulated sufficient knowledge of trivia to fancy their chances in a pub quiz, they individually appear to be entirely lacking in commonsense, a quality which may or may not be an attribute of the more mature in years Dianne Webster who, as is also my opinion, was left out of the loop.

Kate McCann's reference to Madeleine's 'fear of pain' has always been of concern to me; why would a healthy child of 3 years have cause to fear pain?  If she was not subject to certain medical/surgical procedures as a result of some chronic illness/disorder, could being accustomed to physical chastisement by one or both of her parents or other adults be the reason she feared pain?

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Newintown on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:10 am

@kevmack wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
@kimHager wrote:Exactly PeterMac  my thoughts too was they cashed in. I just have a hard time thinking the dreaded M word.... I've thought accident but that doesn't need covering up.... Nothing about this case makes sense... Except in AC/DC's words.. Come on come on listen to the money talk...

I find some of these posts hard to follow as I'm not up to speed with them 24/7, so I have to ask you what AC/DC means, sorry if it's obvious to most , but not me being a sandwich short of a picnic!  smilie
AC/DC the Rock band, other tunes such as Highway to Hell, Whole Lotta Rosie.  One of the guitarists is Angus Young, famed for wearing a schoolboy outfit on stage, still does even though he is in his late 50's

Yes, I know about the rock band but didn't want to mention it as it was too flippant in the death/disappearance of a 3-4 year old child, I still don't know what AC/DC has to do with the disappearance of Madeleine, or am I supposed to know all the lyrics of the band which have to do with MBM and the wearing of a schoolboy outfit. I'm getting too old and haven't got time for all these conundrums, I don't suppose Madeleine will be laughing in her grave.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by kevmack on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:24 am

@Newintown wrote:
@kevmack wrote:
@Newintown wrote:
@kimHager wrote:Exactly PeterMac  my thoughts too was they cashed in. I just have a hard time thinking the dreaded M word.... I've thought accident but that doesn't need covering up.... Nothing about this case makes sense... Except in AC/DC's words.. Come on come on listen to the money talk...

I find some of these posts hard to follow as I'm not up to speed with them 24/7, so I have to ask you what AC/DC means, sorry if it's obvious to most , but not me being a sandwich short of a picnic!  smilie
AC/DC the Rock band, other tunes such as Highway to Hell, Whole Lotta Rosie.  One of the guitarists is Angus Young, famed for wearing a schoolboy outfit on stage, still does even though he is in his late 50's

Yes, I know about the rock band but didn't want to mention it as it was too flippant in the death/disappearance of a 3-4 year old child, I still don't know what AC/DC has to do with the disappearance of Madeleine, or am I supposed to know all the lyrics of the band which have to do with MBM and the wearing of a schoolboy outfit.   I'm getting too old and haven't got time for all these conundrums, I don't suppose Madeleine will be laughing in her grave.
I apologise Newintown, obviously AC/DC have nothing to do with a missing child at all, I was simply pointing out what the reference was, I didn't intend you to be offended and it wasn't me who referred to the band in the first instance, but lets face it, there are often references made to a number of things in relation to this case that have absolutely nothing to with a missing child and I don't doubt Madeleine wouldn't be laughing in her grave as you put it, but that is more down to the actions of her parents, if she is indeed dead, not some posters on a forum who are only trying to get to the bottom of the mystery.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:39 am

Châtelaine wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:As far as I'm aware, although Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine in that and one other area in apartment 5A, there is no evidence of a 'fall behind the sofa'.
***
I agree. There's only evidence of "death" behind the sofa.

However, I do see Dantzebu Irisheyes' reasoning too.
An autopsy, unavoidable in an unexpected death, would have found sedatives [if there were any]. That would IMO indeed automatically lead to a check on all other children; the twins to start with.
This being a motive for "all" to co-operate / collaborate in the cover-up?

Chatelaine,
Excuse me if I am being a bit dull. But what is the reason for crossing out my name? If you didn't mean refer to me why not just delete?
Or is there a point you were trying to make?

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:58 am

dantezebu wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:As far as I'm aware, although Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine in that and one other area in apartment 5A, there is no evidence of a 'fall behind the sofa'.
***
I agree. There's only evidence of "death" behind the sofa.

However, I do see Dantzebu Irisheyes' reasoning too.
An autopsy, unavoidable in an unexpected death, would have found sedatives [if there were any]. That would IMO indeed automatically lead to a check on all other children; the twins to start with.
This being a motive for "all" to co-operate / collaborate in the cover-up?

Chatelaine,
Excuse me if I am being a bit dull. But what is the reason for crossing out my name? If you didn't mean refer to me why not just delete?
Or is there a point you were trying to make?
***
Oh dear, not at all Dantzebu. I realised my mistake and considered it better to make it obvious that I'd been mistaken for others maybe already having read it ...

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:03 am

Châtelaine wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:As far as I'm aware, although Eddie alerted to the scent of cadaverine in that and one other area in apartment 5A, there is no evidence of a 'fall behind the sofa'.
***
I agree. There's only evidence of "death" behind the sofa.

However, I do see Dantzebu Irisheyes' reasoning too.
An autopsy, unavoidable in an unexpected death, would have found sedatives [if there were any]. That would IMO indeed automatically lead to a check on all other children; the twins to start with.
This being a motive for "all" to co-operate / collaborate in the cover-up?

Chatelaine,
Excuse me if I am being a bit dull. But what is the reason for crossing out my name? If you didn't mean refer to me why not just delete?
Or is there a point you were trying to make?
***
Oh dear, not at all Dantzebu. I realised my mistake and considered it better to make it obvious that I'd been mistaken for others maybe already having read it ...

Thank you.  roses 

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:06 am

@ultimaThule wrote: [...]
1] As you know, the possibility of all of the group's children being regularly sedated at night was a motive I put forward a few days ago as reason for a 'collective' cover up, Chatelaine.
[...]
2] Kate McCann's reference to Madeleine's 'fear of pain' has always been of concern to me; why would a healthy child of 3 years have cause to fear pain?  If she was not subject to certain medical/surgical procedures as a result of some chronic illness/disorder, could being accustomed to physical chastisement by one or both of her parents or other adults be the reason she feared pain?
***
Numbers added by me.

ad 1] I feel like I'm having to apologies this evening more than once, UltimaThula.
I may have missed, there's so much to read up to, here and elsewhere, your statement about this. Or I may have read it, but not registered in the sense, that it was so close to one of my own ideas ...

ad 2] This has also been a concern to me. And you put it so more eloquently forward than I could have done between the lines  yes 

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:15 am

If I could, I would get UT to write all my posts for me. Such an amazing command of the English language.




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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:20 am

dantezebu wrote:If I could, I would get UT to write all my posts for me. Such an amazing command of the English language.




And witty.  I've had a few LOLs.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Cristobell on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:19 am

I don't get 'no evidence of an accident behind the sofa'. It was not only Eddie, cadaver dog who alerted behind the sofa, so too did Keela, the blood detection dog. Keela is not called in unless Eddie alerts first. Minute traces of blood were found beneath the tiles where both dogs indicated. In addition, the sofa was pushed back against the window, it had been moved to cover the 'spot'.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Woofer on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:54 am

@Cristobell wrote:I don't get 'no evidence of an accident behind the sofa'.  It was not only Eddie, cadaver dog who alerted behind the sofa, so too did Keela, the blood detection dog.  Keela is not called in unless Eddie alerts first.  Minute traces of blood were found beneath the tiles where both dogs indicated.  In addition, the sofa was pushed back against the window, it had been moved to cover the 'spot'.  

That made me think - good job we keep going over things.

Gosh I`m so thick sometimes.  Of course she must have died behind the sofa, or  died near to it and then moved straight there.   There must have been a fair amount of blood leakage for it to have penetrated beneath the floor tiles.  So there was a fair amount of bleeding then death in the same place. 

If a dead body had been placed there sometime after the cause of death, there wouldn`t be sufficient blood leakage to penetrate the tiles as the blood stops circulating once the heart has stopped. 

Those with more knowledge on blood leakage after death, correct me if I`m wrong.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by kimHager on Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:49 am

Sorry newintown...my ac/dc was a reference to a song that is about money which is why i think TM's had in mind. IF Maddy is dead which we must point out isnt proven but is what most believe she IMO would have probably had an accidental demise.Now maybe TM would have covered it up because they saw a get rich quick scheme and ( in my opinion )followed the money. Obviously i dont believe an abduction took place so many people dont either...so no body means no death which could mean abduction and then help us find her we have a fund in place before you can blink an eye....so IMO the cover up was soley for the fund and possibly no murder just hide the body to get the money. Obviously this is just my opinion and in no way meant as fact.

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by kimHager on Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:06 am

Woofer i believe your right on the blood under the tiles and cristobell also...i believe death took place behind the sofa. The heart stops beating and the blood pools wherever gravity leads it...sorry not trying to get graphic.

Not to get off topic too much but do we know when Gerry went to the market and possibly what he purchased.A camera in the market with a time referance would help because i believe the cleanup would have taken place relatively close to the discovery.even as strange as a family toothbrush is to us, kate being over zealous on clening would have wanted it done quick i believe.anyone ie the cleaners wtc could have popped in...

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:21 am

GM admits to pushing the sofa back against the wall. But I cannot remember the context in which he says this.
It could be possible that the sofa was in another place altogether and only put where it was to cover up the blood spills.
There were quite a few DNA samples taken from this area on the wall. Which perhaps you wouldn't expect if it was permanently in that place.


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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by kimHager on Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:37 am

I think he said the children threw their toys behind it dantezebu...but where was the toys i never saw any besides cuddlecat. Obviously that observation wasnt expected and a quick and rather lame excuse was given. Why would children playing there matter? Yes i believe theres photos where the sofa was pulled out in the middle of the room

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Re: Terminally McCanned?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:51 pm


It is often suggested that Maddie diesd as a result of sedation, either directly due to the sedation from an OD etc, or a fall because she was drowsy.
And the reason why the T7 went along with the MCs cover up was because they had all sedated their children, and that the children would all be subject to testing.
But from a legal/policing aspect, does anyone know if it is possible for blood samples to be taken from these children if the parents said no.
And refused to allow it. They would be within their rights as parents to refuse?
Would social services have to be involved to determine if the child was at risk first? Would there have to be a court order or something?



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