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Actual time of disappearance.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 20.02.14 14:43

@j.rob wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
Yes - think that drugging is a KEY issue here. And, as is so often the case, Kate provides clues as to what happened in her book. She gives much weight to the possibility that the alleged abductor could have entered the apartment the previous evening, tried to drug Madeleine (stain on the top of her pyjamas) which woke up Madeleine and Sean ('why didn't you come when we cried that night?') so he fled empty handed.

It seems a little odd, that on the one hand Kate is suggesting that Madeleine might have been drugged on the Wednesday evening, but on the other hand she woke up a cried. How can we reconcile the two things? Perhaps by the presence of the stain on the Pyjama top - the drugging was not completely successful - hence the abductor may have succeeded during the day on Thursday?

In any event, the presence of the stain on Madeleine's  pyjama top is an 'unexplained detail' (p 63) along with the 'why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night'. Both details included by Kate to suggest the involvement of a mystery abductor who could have drugged Madeleine and stolen her from her bed without her making a noise. 

By suggesting that the random abductor had given the children drugs it could also 'cover tracks' in the event of toxicology tests being carried out on the twins - or possibly Madeleine, if she had been 'found' before she was removed from the resort.

Kate in her book writes that Madeleine was excessively tired on the afternoon of the last Thursday  -  the day of her disappearance - and suggests this could be because of the attempted drugging (even if some of the drug had ended up on her pyjama top) 'earlier that day or even the night before' (page 130).

So - the inference clearly being that the abductor not only might have drugged Madeleine (and possibly the twins too, at least on the final evening)  on the night before - but maybe even during the day on Thursday. This seems odd - when could the abductor have had unrestricted access to Madeleine during the day on Thursday? During the evening the children were unattended so that makes more sense, but during the day - how and when? Why did Kate suggest this in her book. Was it to place Madeleine as alive and well on the Thursday during the day

I too believe that Wednesday evening was critical - and possibly also Monday/Tuesday days and evenings. By claiming that the alleged abductor stole Madeleine at quite a precise time on Thursday evening, a smokescreen may have been planted for events on previous days or evenings. imo. The Jane Tanner sighting placed a very specific time and place for Madeleine's alleged abduction. The series of checks by the Tapas friends and so on. All (maybe) to detract from what really happened and when, perhaps?

Although it is of course possible that Madeleine was moved around several times, either alive or dead, imo.

Whatever happened, clues are embedded in what the McCanns have said and written. 

So, out of the horses' mouths - Madeleine was drugged........Madeleine 'was taken'........it is likely the twins were sedated too as they didn't wake up on Thursday night despite all the commotion........
Yes agree. The only thing I cannot fathom is why Kate volunteered the info on her sleeping in the children's bedroom on the Wednesday night. It must serve a purpose. Could it be that she wanted the cleaners to remember that TWO beds had been used that night? The McCann's must have assumed that the cleaners would be questioned at length being the only other people outside of the group who could witness their life inside the apartment.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Guest on 20.02.14 15:27

Hicks, I agree with your last para re. sleeping apart on Weds. 2nd May.  If you read the "Kate upset with Gerry?" thread, Portia has written some interesting comments.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 22.02.14 14:37

There was me thinking I was getting somewhere with putting the crucial day on the Wednesday, the day of the accident, flurry of phone calls and subsequent removal.

Came across the headline that a middle aged couple went into 5a on the Wednesday evening with the intention to soothe Madeleine as she was crying for a while......yet again!
If this is correct then M was alive on the Wednesday evening. Does anyone know the source of info and if it's reliable?

If correct then it's back to Thursday and Smithman being credible once more.

I was thinking about what Km says about her 9.30 check on the Thursday and how one of the group offered to go instead.
Listening to her talk about it she says," Matt said, I'll check on Madeleine". Well Shouldn't that have been..... " I'll check on the children "?

IIRC one of the Nannies(CP) says that she was one of the first into the apartment and there were no cots in the children's bedroom, the twins were not there. I believe the twins were put into the Payne's apartment as they had a monitor, I expect Madeleine's crying the previous nights had disturbed them so the McC'S decided on this arrangement. Nothing must disturb them having their fun!

No wonder then that Madeleine got up out of bed when she realised she was completely on her own in the apartment, no twins this time. Is this why KM was heard to say," We've let her down"?

I think KM really did go to the apartment at 9.30, she was seen shouting on the balcony at this time by the waiter and the cook at the Tapas. Lying about Matt doing the check and Km going at ten allowed them extra time for the removal.

I keep coming back to the Carpenters, they heard someone calling Madeleine's name around 9.30.

I wonder if the Smith's had witnessed an unconscious Madeleine, or maybe comatose, being carried by GM to a property near by where she later passed away.

All in my opinion.

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actual time of disappearance

Post by travis macbickle on 22.02.14 16:43

@Hicks wrote:There was me thinking I was getting somewhere with putting the crucial day on the Wednesday, the day of the accident, flurry of phone calls and subsequent removal.

Came across the headline that a middle aged couple went into 5a on the Wednesday evening with the intention to soothe Madeleine as she was crying for a while......yet again!
If this is correct then M was alive on the Wednesday evening. Does anyone know the source of info and if it's reliable?

If correct then it's back to Thursday and Smithman being credible once more.

I was thinking about what Km says about her 9.30 check on the Thursday and how one of the group offered to go instead.
Listening to her talk about it she says," Matt said, I'll check on Madeleine". Well Shouldn't that have been..... " I'll check on the children "?

IIRC one of the Nannies(CP) says that she was one of the first into the apartment and there were no cots in the children's bedroom, the twins were not there. I believe the twins were put into the Payne's apartment as they had a monitor, I expect Madeleine's crying the previous nights had disturbed them so the McC'S decided on this arrangement. Nothing must disturb them having their fun!

No wonder then that Madeleine got up out of bed when she realised she was completely on her own in the apartment, no twins this time. Is this why KM was heard to say," We've let her down"?

I think KM really did go to the apartment at 9.30, she was seen shouting on the balcony at this time by the waiter and the cook at the Tapas. Lying about Matt doing the check and Km going at ten allowed them extra time for the removal.

I keep coming back to the Carpenters, they heard someone calling Madeleine's name around 9.30.

I wonder if the Smith's had witnessed an unconscious Madeleine, or maybe comatose, being carried by GM to a property near by where she later passed away.

All in my opinion.
surely not hicks,otherwise the dogs wouldn,t have picked up the dead body scent in the apartment.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Research_Reader on 03.03.14 20:32

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
My original view, which I veered away from, is now my current view again. The whole thing is some weird kind of public/private PsyOp.

I often think that too. It seems to make sense of so many of the weird disparate bits of info.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Varriott on 03.03.14 21:20

Back to diatribe's original question on the time of disappearance.

Here is a very detailed theory that Madeleine died on May 2nd, and the entire day of the 3rd was used to simulate her presence and come up with a plan for removal:
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/p/theory-english.html

You should also be aware of the work of the writer known as Dr Martin Roberts, who writes beautifully and with great knowledge of the case files.  I'll point you to Seventeen Come Sunday and the posts that follow it:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id400.html

Also, look at As If By Magic:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id356.html

I get spooked just reminding myself of all this.

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actual time of disappearance

Post by travis macbickle on 04.03.14 0:16

@Varriott wrote:Back to diatribe's original question on the time of disappearance.

Here is a very detailed theory that Madeleine died on May 2nd, and the entire day of the 3rd was used to simulate her presence and come up with a plan for removal:
http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com/p/theory-english.html

You should also be aware of the work of the writer known as Dr Martin Roberts, who writes beautifully and with great knowledge of the case files.  I'll point you to Seventeen Come Sunday and the posts that follow it:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id400.html

Also, look at As If By Magic:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id356.html

I get spooked just reminding myself of all this.
 thank you varriott.very interesting analysis from the german blog.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 04.03.14 0:31

@Varriott wrote:

You should also be aware of the work of the writer known as Dr Martin Roberts, who writes beautifully and with great knowledge of the case files.  I'll point you to Seventeen Come Sunday and the posts that follow it:
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id400.html


Indeed, Dr. Roberts is an eloquent writer, Varriott. However, it is his ultimate para. vis a vis the child minder, Catriona Baker that I find to be the most interesting. He is disdainfully dismissive of her account of events, which makes the Met Police lack of interest in her all the more disturbing. 

Clearly this witness holds the case card as she is in effect giving the McCanns a time line alibi which is enabling them to remain one step beyond extradition proceedings.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Varriott on 04.03.14 4:20

diatribe- I don't think we know for sure who the Met is talking to.  Maybe they're quietly talking to everyone.  Cat Baker would be in a load of trouble if she didn't know who or how many children she was looking after, and that would make her pretty reluctant to talk.  Also, eye-witness statements, however damning, don't mean a whole lot in court without forensics to back them up.  There are no forensics (since the dogs don't stand up in court and the DNA evidence was too fragile).  I wish this were like a mystery novel, where once the detective figures it out, justice somehow follows automatically.  In this case, I don't hold out much hope.  A small part of me thinks that the mobile phone records will be the key to unravelling what happened.  That's the only hope I have right now. All in my most humble of opinions.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by NickE on 10.03.14 10:43

BBC.
What exactly does Gerry mean with "Moved the twins out to their own apartment?"

GERRY McCANN Speaking in August There had been quite a few people in the apartment but not into the bedroom, that was limited to myself, Kate, I think two of our friends, the two GNR officers and I think a translator. I was certainly saying to people: "Stay out of the room." There was no sealing off of the room and should we?

Children's bedroom, Apartment 5A

The twins were still sleeping in their cots. So... you'd be trying to leave it as undisturbed as possible, and they slept very soundly until we moved them out of the cots into their own apartment which does make me wonder about whether there was any substances used to keep them asleep.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by joyce1938 on 10.03.14 12:36

it could mean their own apartement  was one where they would not be disturbed ,with all the comings and goings ? just another way to look at it . joyce1938

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