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the shutters revisited

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 29.11.12 6:52

@morskaj wrote:I have never seen this account of Maddy 'cowering' before, I assume that as it seems to be a quote of Kate McCanns, that it comes from a statement by her, or from a quote in her book? Why would a child cower? The dictionary definition is - crouch or shrink with fear or cold. Assumably in Portugal she wasn't cold, does that mean fear? Why would she crouch in fear? Just asking.

It is a direct quote from Kate, I think it's the book. In the diary we also have her thinking of 'Madeleine and her fear of pain' I think it appears twice.
Significantly imo, this is changed in the book to: Madeleine and her fear and pain'.

In another discussion - I really don't know which topic anymore - this was picked up. It's very revealing imo. Then Maddie's medical records were not released. Did she have treatments which were painful?

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by Swizzlestick on 30.11.12 20:01

@friedtomatoes wrote:shutters were jemmied, opened, smashed from the outside we have been told by friends and family of the mccanns

kate mccann says on her check the shutters were raised right up

pat brown after her trip to pdl posted a video showing that whilst the shutters could be raised from the outside they couldnt stay up

ergo, they were not raised from outside, jemmied, smashed or broken, and as seen in the police photos taken after the events, were in perfect working order

as kate admitted, the shutters were a red herring!

the other anomaly is diane webster saying she couldnt raise them more than a few inches without them getting twisted whilst gerry opened them with ease! and then we have at least three people testing the shutters minutes after a child has gone missing..... for what reason? if a child has been taken from an apartment why would anyone try to test how theycould have entered? and all before police got there

A quick question, if somebody would like to comment... just reading through "Truth Of The Lie" and the comment made about there being no trace of gloves worn by the intruder / burgular / abductor... is glove wearing detectable usually in relation to forensics at a scene of a crime?

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by Guest on 30.11.12 20:20

A quick google search took me to: "Glove prints, also sometimes described as gloveprints or glove marks, are latent prints that are transferred to a surface or object by an individual who is wearing gloves.
Many criminals often wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, which makes the crime investigation more difficult. Although the gloves act as a protective covering for the wearer's prints, the gloves themselves can leave prints that are just as unique as human fingerprints. "

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by Swizzlestick on 30.11.12 20:47

Châtelaine wrote:A quick google search took me to: "Glove prints, also sometimes described as gloveprints or glove marks, are latent prints that are transferred to a surface or object by an individual who is wearing gloves.
Many criminals often wear gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, which makes the crime investigation more difficult. Although the gloves act as a protective covering for the wearer's prints, the gloves themselves can leave prints that are just as unique as human fingerprints. "

Thanks for that info Chatelaine, I need to go and find out now if it is also possible for a wearer, wearing gloves, touching a surface, not be detected, (or words to that effect).

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Treatments?

Post by morskaj on 03.12.12 3:17

Tigger, you ask if it is possible that Madeleine had 'treatments which were painful'? Could it be that something happened to her that was 'painful' that she needed treatment for?

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 03.12.12 7:05

@morskaj wrote:Tigger, you ask if it is possible that Madeleine had 'treatments which were painful'? Could it be that something happened to her that was 'painful' that she needed treatment for?

Imo that is the other way round. 'Her fear of pain' indicates that she was afraid before the pain was inflicted. If something painful happened she wouldn't be in fear of pain since it wasn't foreseen.

Imo she was not a healthy child, a lot of photographs - early ones too - seem to show this. Another thing I pick up from a lot of photographs is a certain insecurity as if she doesn't know what's expected of her. E.g. the pink fairy video. In my eyes she looks quite 'peaky' in some photographs.

I also think it's very important that that sentence is changed in the book to: 'her fear and pain'. Too late to change the published diaries, but an editor at work?

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The shutters and an old friend.

Post by Observer on 14.12.12 10:36

Recently I became re-aquainted with an old friend of mine via Facebook (I had not seen or heard from him in over 15 years).
When we first met he was a successful business man and still is, thankfully. However he did explain to me during our friendship that he had a rather chequered past, being a burglar targeting high end properties.
During our conversations on Facebook I explained to him that I have been following the case of MBM and asked him if he had any thoughts on the case. He replied saying that he had "smelt a rat from the first day".
Asking why he felt this he replied "no one attempting to enter a property illegally would do so from a blind entry point (i.e the shutters) not knowing who or what was behind them, unless it was an inside job" he then went on further to explain how it would have been impossible to raise the shutters from the outside, as they work on a similar mechanism to a block and tackle, or, parking a forty ton truck on a steep hill in 1st gear with the handbrake off,,,,,it wont move.
Insider knowledge, invaluable!!

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 16.07.14 12:50

On trawling for PeterMac's analysis on the timeline of phone calls and the dissemination  of the jemmied shutters story, I came across this topic, the last post  is very interesting, has anybody ever asked a burglar's opinion?

The same story came from people not necessarily in contact with each  other, such as Jon Corner and the Glasgow family members. The discrepancies in Michael Wrights' timeline of hearing and acting on the news certainly points to thejemmied shutters having made an appearance rather earlier than 10.00pm on the 3rd.
In this topic the other parts of the story which were dropped are also of interest. Such as the ledge and the door hanging open.

A narrative that didn't fit the facts was broadcast to the media and had to be changed later due to several oversights by the organisers imo.


See also:   http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2550-the-shutters?highlight=Shutters

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by jeanmonroe on 16.07.14 15:37

Trish Cameron -
Gerry McCanns sister, said she received a telephone call from her 39-year-old brother, a consultant cardiologist, who was "hysterical and crying his eyes out".

She said: (AND ON VIDEO, all 'saved') "They last checked at half past nine and they were all sound asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut.
---------------------------------------------------------
I keep bringing this 'point' up.

How could they be all asleep, sleeping, windows shut, shutters shut, AT 9:30pm, 3rd May 2007, when J Tanner 'saw' Madeleine, (because of her pyjamas) being 'carried off' at 9:15/20pm, 3rd May 2007?

Perhaps the 'burglator' went BACK to 5A to 'smash, break, jemmy' the shutters 10 or 15 minutes AFTER he had 'carried' Madeleine off!

McCanns are still displaying JT's 'Tannerman' on their website so obviously are still sticking rigidly to the TIME she 'saw' the 'abductor' that night.

10 or 15 minutes BEFORE he, she, they, went back, AFTER 9:30pm, according to truthful Trish, to 'smash, break, jemmy' the shutters of apartment 5A.

Wouldn't all that 'smashing, breaking, jemmying' the shutters have woken up ALL the THREE kids sleeping in the apartment at HALF past NINE, according to truthful Trish?

Well TWO kids anyway, as the third child had been 'abducted' 10/15 minutes EARLIER according to the McCanns and 'eagle eyed' J Tanner!

OUCH!,................. a flying pig has just hit me upside my head.!

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 16.07.14 16:01

Ah well JM, see my earlier post, that might be moreof the same. A last minute change in the performance.

Allegedly Gerry phoned the Camerons around 11.40 (II'll check) iirc this would be one of the deleted  calls.
So do you think that - the PJ not having arrived until  around midnight- there had as yet not been a decision on using JW and JT to put GM in the clear.

What with the ledge, the door hanging open and  Maddie stiil safely sleeping in bed at 9.30, it  does seem that the curiously word-perfect  abduction tale by  several friends and family had not yet been adjusted.

Since the Camerons said they'd phoned the embassy as well  soon after GMs call, it's my belief the media were informed around that time too.

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 16.07.14 16:06

3rd May


22.01 Gerry calls Liverpool nr. - 6 mins.
22.06 answer to Liverpool call?
22.11 answer to Liverpool call?
22.42 answer to Liverpool call?

23.00/23.05 pm - A GNR patrol arrives at Ocean Club

23:14 Gerry calls Kate (8 seconds)
23:17 Gerry calls Kate (31 seconds) (this is the call which Kate saved but Gerry deleted when they deleted their calls pre midnight)
23.40 Gerry calls Trish Cameron (11.13 minutes) we have John McCann stating that Gerry called him at 23.40 see below)
23.52 Gerry calls Brian and Janet Kennedy (2.30 minutes

00.00 and 00.30, the police arrived.

0.05.00 am Gerry calls Brian and Janet Kennedy (3 seconds)
0.05.45 am Gerry calls Trish Cameron (3 seconds)
0.06.15 am Gerry calls Brian and Janet Kennedy (2.47 minutes)
0.12.08 am answer to Liverpool call?
0.13.14 am Gerry calls Trish Cameron (3 seconds)
0.21.36 am Gerry calls Trish Cameron (23 seconds)
0.23.12 am Gerry calls …. (3.55 minutes)
0.27.07 am Trish Cameron calls Gerry (2.28 minutes)
0.29.37 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (4.53 minutes)
0.38.40 am … calls Gerry (6.40 minutes)
0.47.41 am Angela Morado at UK Consulate calls Gerry (2.15 minutes)
01.16.11 am Gerry calls A. M. UK Consulate(1.57 minutes)
01.29.58 am Phil McCann calls Gerry (3.36 minutes)
01.43.55 am … calls Gerry (3.29 minutes)


04.14.41 am Gerry calls … (01 seconds) SMS
04.15.23 am Gerry calls … (01 seconds) SMS
04.15.43 am Gerry calls … (01 seconds) SMS
07.09.04 am John McCann calls Gerry (3.26 minutes)
07.15.19 am Gerry calls Angela Morado UK Consulate (4.51 minutes)
07.23.20 am … calls Gerry (5.53 minutes)


Related events.
21.55 Smith family see man and child approx.

23.00 hrs, OC guest G. McKenzie. approached the McCann’s apartment from the bushes at the rear of the apartment Mr McCann was looking our over the swimming pool and did not see Mr McKenzie. Mr McCann was absolutely distraught telling the person receiving the call that he feared “she (Madeleine McCann) had been taken by paedophiles”He said something along the lines of there being Paedophile gangs in Portugal and that they had abducted Madeleine. I was so shocked by this, having originally thought that she had just wandered off.”

23.00 After she arrived about S.B. (Silvia Batista - translator)went immediately to the apartment A5 where she found several people inside the apartment and outside of it. She entered in the flat but soon left without having spoken with anyone, because she was informed that elements of the GNR were in the principal reception. She went there to meet them.
When she came close to the elements of the GNR she found that behind her was Gerry.

John McCann stated on MSNBC that at ‘twenty to twelve’ 23.40 pm Gerry calls his brother John.

00.40/00.50. PJ Officer V. M. M. arrived on the scene. 00.40/00.50. Deputy Specialist J. B. arrived.

0.30 and 01.00 Estimated time. Two timelines written by Russel O’Brien on the covers ripped off Madeleine’s stickerbook are provided to the GNR officers.

By 23.00 we can place Gerry in 5a or near there, at 22.00 we cannot.
There is a big gap between 01.43 and 04.14 during which Kate does all the phoning.

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by LittleMissy on 16.07.14 20:24

Hmmmmm, these deleted calls, WHY did K & G seemingly erase their call history ???

The 'high ledge' that cc was apparently placed on, telling K immediately abduction had taken place, a ledge that does not exist in the photo(pj files) of the bedroom from which Madelaine supposedly disappeared.

So many questions.......but like the all important 48 questions.....so few answers, at least from the Mccans anyway ....

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What Family Members Were Told About The Shutters

Post by sallypelt on 09.09.14 22:06

Over the past 7 years, since Madeleine McCann disappeared without trace, I have been revisiting what the family members and friends of the McCann's told MSM, It now appears that the "jemmied" or "broken" shutters figured large at that time. For example, here is a list of snippets from the www.McCanfiles.com:


Gerry rings his sister, Trish Cameron, at 23:40 on 03 May 2007
Trish said: "When Kate checked, she came out screaming. Maddy had gone. The door was open and the window in the bedroom and shutters were jemmied open. Nothing had been touched and no valuables taken


Kate rings another close friend, Jon Corner, at 03:00am
"They had left the apartment locked while they were having their meal, but when they went back the last time they saw the damage."
"Kate said the shutters of the room were smashed. Madeleine was missing It looks as though someone had gone straight past the twins to get to her.
"She just told me that MADDY [and remember she was "never called Maddy"] had been abducted, that the shutters of the apartment had been forced and someone had taken her."

Kate/Gerry ring another friend, Jill Renwick, at 07:00am
"The shutters had been broken open and they've gone into the room and taken her."



Gerry tells Brian Healy the shutters were broken and the door was open, 05 May 2007

"Gerry told me when they went back the shutters to the room were broken, they were jemmied up and she was gone," said Mr Healy. "She'd been taken from the chalet. The door was open."



But despite the fact that every person who Jerry and Kate McCann called were told that the shutters were jemmied or tampered with, we now know that this was one big LIE.

I can recall reading, way back, that just before Madeleine McCann was reported missing, Jerry McCann was seen tampering with the shutters. I believe that this is where things went drastically wrong, and this was the reason for the need to draw up new timelines on the covers of the sticker book. In a panic, they couldn't quite get it right and things began to spin out of control..

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 12.09.14 12:21

Iirc PeterMac posted on the uncanny similarity between the early reports which came as you point out above, from different sources.  Not very long ago, four months or so?

The early ones - again iirc - also included the 'cuddlecat on the ledge out of reach'  -
Which is quite an important mistake.

I wonder if there was a ledge in another apartment, say an apartment where the children slept in the evening.

The PJ would know as there is a report or press leak soon after  Amaral  left that the PJ had evidence that all  children slept in one room.
This occasioned the usual  unintelligent answer from Clarrie that it would be very hard to get seven children to sleep.
Do I have  the number  wrong? Point is that  Clarrie gave a number which would leave out Maddie.

Kate was in touch with Jon Corner - some 25 calls and sms that night.

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by Guest on 12.09.14 13:01

As much as I believe that this case involves a devious masterplan of unprecedented complexity, I still don't understand why they so freely reported the shutters to be damaged/jemmied when it so patently was not the case - and they would have known this. I can come up with fanciful explanations, but they're a bit far fetched even for me.

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Re: the shutters revisited

Post by tigger on 12.09.14 15:48

Clay Regazzoni wrote:As much as I believe that this case involves a devious masterplan of unprecedented complexity, I still don't understand why they so freely reported the shutters to be damaged/jemmied when it so patently was not the case - and they would have known this. I can come up with fanciful explanations, but they're a bit far fetched even for me.


Slight oversight? Family and friends stuck to the original instructions conveyed some time before 3/5?

I'd think that the means of entry would come a very late second to the absence of my child. All theyseem to have broadcast were the mechanics of the enterprise.

In theory (note theory) going by the information given, Gerry wasted precious minutes with them thar shutter.
In theory - if he'd run into PdL he might have seen a man carrying a child....near the beach by that time. Except of course that will throw up existential and relativity problems when meeting yourself due to a blip in the space-time continuum...

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