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Devout Catholics

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 15:58

Good points, Tigger!

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 03.07.14 16:14

Oh, I hear yous, I'm not setting my face against this - I would just say again: we should tread carefully when we wander into this area. We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.

So we can view the "strong faith" facade as part of a wider charm offensive K&G embarked on at the time but I really don't feel it has enormous significance beyond that. Just like slagging off, explicitly and implicitly, Portugal and its people, I think this is something that K&G would have done if M had merely been abducted.

My interest and focus lie with those aspects of this case which point most pronoucedly to something other than abduction, and I don't see religion fitting into that category.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 17:03

@ajb wrote:Oh, I hear yous, I'm not setting my face against this - I would just say again: we should tread carefully when we wander into this area. We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.

So we can view the "strong faith" facade as part of a wider charm offensive K&G embarked on at the time but I really don't feel it has enormous significance beyond that. Just like slagging off, explicitly and implicitly, Portugal and its people, I think this is something that K&G would have done if M had merely been abducted.

My interest and focus lie with those aspects of this case which point most pronoucedly to something other than abduction, and I don't see religion fitting into that category.

I presumed Murdoch was a catholic as he had his daughter baptised in that faith, if he's not a catholic, no doubt  it was his wife who arranged it.
It is 100  % true that Blair was and is godfather to Murdoch's daughter. Also that she was baptised on the banks of the Jordan.
So that's pretty cosy imo.

You're welcome to your above expressed preference to discuss the validity of the abduction.
If that is the case you're on the wrong topic -  there are plenty of topics where you can discuss the abduction to your hearts' content.  Just put the word in the search box.


We'll just carry on where we left off with the question on how and why the religion card was so blatantly used.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 17:05

@ajb wrote:Oh, I hear yous, I'm not setting my face against this - I would just say again: we should tread carefully when we wander into this area. We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.

So we can view the "strong faith" facade as part of a wider charm offensive K&G embarked on at the time but I really don't feel it has enormous significance beyond that. Just like slagging off, explicitly and implicitly, Portugal and its people, I think this is something that K&G would have done if M had merely been abducted.

My interest and focus lie with those aspects of this case which point most pronoucedly to something other than abduction, and I don't see religion fitting into that category.
Sorry to bang on ajb, but only on a point of fact.

Savile most certainly made much of his Catholicism. 
He was honoured for his various 'services' by being made a Knight Commander of the Pontifical Equestrian Order of Saint Gregory the Great (KCSG) by Pope John Paul II in 1990.  His solemn Requiem Mass was conducted by the Bishop of Leeds in St Anne's Cathedral, with Royal Marines acting as pall bearers.

Re Mr Murdoch, if he is anything, as his mother was Jewish, he is technically Jewish!

I do actually tend to agree with your last sentence ajb, and we should not let incidentals distract us from the "something other" to which you ominously and IMO correctly allude!

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 17:10

To get back on topic (the discussion on the obligations to the dead earlier)

From:  http://mccannfundfraud.info/2008/12/the-car-hired-5-weeks-after-madeleines-disappearance/

5 weeks after Madeleine disappeared was the weekend commencing Friday June 8, 2007. When we look closely at that weekend, there are several interesting things to note:

The McCann family flew in to the Algarve or were already there for that weekend. Susan and Brian Healy – Kate’s parents – were there. Trish and Sandy Cameron – Gerry’s sister and his brother in-law were there. Philomena flew in to Lisbon and Kate’s long time friend Anne-Marie Wright and her husband Michael had flown in to Faro.

Michael told the police that he and his wife flew in with the specific job of looking after Sean and Amelie while Kate and Gerry went to Morocco on Sunday June 10. Given the large number of close family relatives in town, Michael’s statement to the police is flawed.

On Saturday June 9, 2007, the entire family is supposed to have spent a day at the southwestern tip of Portugal – a town called Sagres.

On the Sunday afternoon, Kate, Gerry and Clarence Mitchell all went up to Lisbon to catch a small private plane laid on especially for them to go to Casablanca in Morocco. Their ultimate destination was Rabat, where a press conference with Sky’s Martin Brunt was held.

North Africa in June is a very hot place to be. Why then was Martin Brunt wearing a white suit, children were wearing t-shirts, but they chose to wear the worst attire possible – black suits more befitting a funeral?
Unquote


Eta: being born Jewish doesn't mean you can't adopt any religion you like.
I know several Jews who are Christians.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by lj on 03.07.14 17:23

@juliet wrote:"For the English to see..." interesting indeed Judex. Re Father Pacheco, is it true that Kate mocked him in her book, saying he was a bit too smiley and effusive like Kenny Everett or something? I fear I have imagined it.


No you did not.

IMO religion is often used, the same here, as a shield. Like"I am saying I pray" now you can't accuse me of being a flatout bastard. Even Kate's mom said they were not that religious. (wasn't it delightful how she would spill the beans every time she opened her mouth?)
I think their religion was Kate in front of the mirror in the morning, asking Gerry: today the white rosary, or the crystal one? Gerry: as long as it is not the black one, they will find out Madeleine is dead.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 17:29

Yes Tigger, Michael Wright's claim made no sense at all.

And the sombre black and white funeral clothes in Morocco were very strange indeed. And when they returned they spoke of being allowed to grieve.


For what, precisely, if .... "There is absolutely no evidence that any... "etc etc etc??

(Point taken re Jews/Christians.)

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 17:30

@ajb wrote:Oh, I hear yous, I'm not setting my face against this - I would just say again: we should tread carefully when we wander into this area. We've already had Jimmy Savile (!!!) and Rupert Murdoch "outed" incorrectly as Catholics on this thread. In fact, Murdoch has no religion having been born to an atheist father and a Jewish mother.

So we can view the "strong faith" facade as part of a wider charm offensive K&G embarked on at the time but I really don't feel it has enormous significance beyond that. Just like slagging off, explicitly and implicitly, Portugal and its people, I think this is something that K&G would have done if M had merely been abducted.

My interest and focus lie with those aspects of this case which point most pronoucedly to something other than abduction, and I don't see religion fitting into that category.

I forgot to welcome you as you've just joined today, just hours ago in fact.

As for the bolded sentence, I feel you are in error. On the previous pages we had an excellent discussion going on the significance/ importance of the 3, 12, 40 days obligation to the dead. That gives us a possible date for the demise of Maddie if she died earlier, assuming she did of course.
Working back from that, we then look at what we know about e.g. the 29th April.
We then see that from that date onwards various events do not agree with the story.
We see that the telephone traffic has a curious pattern and so on.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 03.07.14 17:47

Thanks all for the (cagey) welcome. 

I'm a Catholic, not especially devout, but I know my catechism. 

There is no additional significance whatsoever in the Catholic faith attaching to the 3rd, 12th or 40th day after death. More than happy to be corrected on that one.

There is the Month's Mind, a Mass which takes place on the 28th day after death. That's it to the best of my knowledge. 

Sorry - my comment on Savile and Murdoch was poorly worded: the "incorrectly outed" comment referred to Murdoch only. 

More generally, this thread confuses me: you seem to be saying on the one hand that K&G aren't really proper Catholics at all, but on the other hand you're saying they placed themselves at very great risk by observing arcane and little-known Catholic practices. Can both those statements be correct?

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 19:49

@ajb wrote:Thanks all for the (cagey) welcome. 

I'm a Catholic, not especially devout, but I know my catechism. 

There is no additional significance whatsoever in the Catholic faith attaching to the 3rd, 12th or 40th day after death. More than happy to be corrected on that one.

There is the Month's Mind, a Mass which takes place on the 28th day after death. That's it to the best of my knowledge. 

Sorry - my comment on Savile and Murdoch was poorly worded: the "incorrectly outed" comment referred to Murdoch only. 

More generally, this thread confuses me: you seem to be saying on the one hand that K&G aren't really proper Catholics at all, but on the other hand you're saying they placed themselves at very great risk by observing arcane and little-known Catholic practices. Can both those statements be correct?

YES.

.As you're interested in abduction, please discuss it on one of the many topics available here on that subject or start one yourself.
That would have the added advantage of meeting other posters and I assure you - I will not be amongst them.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by juliet on 03.07.14 19:56

Going back to Kate McCann and her book, diary etc, she has a habit of very nastily mocking people who trouble her. So it is always a clue that she wants to shut people up when she slags them off. Yvonne Martin. Mrs Fenn. Father Pacheco. The PJ. The GNR. The dogs. She tries to say "Don't listen to any of them. They're mad or drunk or weird or unreliable."
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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Iamtheseeker on 03.07.14 20:05

The pair of them are a disgrace to the catholic faith , they tell lies for gods sake , they changed their stories with the Police ! , The hideous pair even had the front to visit the pope on other peoples cost ie "donations" . One thing must be said for the vile pair , " big grin they have more front than brighton beach"

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by truthfultiger on 03.07.14 21:12

As there was a bit of toing and froing about the 40 days after death I went to look it up myself. The 40 prayers and mass seems to be more common in eastern orthodox christianity (although I understand some people of catholic origin have said there is a 40 day service, not trying to contradict them, just going on what I have gleaned from various catholic websites).

However, I came across this link:

https://www.everplans.com/tools-and-resources/catholic-funeral-traditions

It mentions that funeral rites are prohibited in the 50 days after Easter. Anyone know when Easter was in 2007? I'm away to look it up...

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 21:17

@juliet wrote:Going back to Kate McCann and her book, diary etc, she has a habit of very nastily mocking people who trouble her. So it is always a clue that she wants to shut people up when she slags them off. Yvonne Martin. Mrs Fenn. Father Pacheco. The PJ. The GNR. The dogs. She tries to say "Don't listen to any of them. They're mad or drunk or weird or unreliable."
Yes, Juliet, thanks, totally agree that the slagging is, with hindsight, a pathetic give-away!
In my list I forgot to include Yvonne Martin. Another scandalous red flag, and suspiciously linked to D Payne.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 21:19

@truthfultiger wrote:As there was a bit of toing and froing about the 40 days after death I went to look it up myself. The 40 prayers and mass seems to be more common in eastern orthodox christianity (although I understand some people of catholic origin have said there is a 40 day service, not trying to contradict them, just going on what I have gleaned from various catholic websites).

However, I came across this link:

https://www.everplans.com/tools-and-resources/catholic-funeral-traditions

It mentions that funeral rites are prohibited in the 50 days after Easter. Anyone know when Easter was in 2007? I'm away to look it up...
Just for info... Easter was in early April 2007.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 03.07.14 21:23

@tigger wrote:
@ajb wrote:Thanks all for the (cagey) welcome. 

I'm a Catholic, not especially devout, but I know my catechism. 

There is no additional significance whatsoever in the Catholic faith attaching to the 3rd, 12th or 40th day after death. More than happy to be corrected on that one.

There is the Month's Mind, a Mass which takes place on the 28th day after death. That's it to the best of my knowledge. 

Sorry - my comment on Savile and Murdoch was poorly worded: the "incorrectly outed" comment referred to Murdoch only. 

More generally, this thread confuses me: you seem to be saying on the one hand that K&G aren't really proper Catholics at all, but on the other hand you're saying they placed themselves at very great risk by observing arcane and little-known Catholic practices. Can both those statements be correct?

YES.

.As you're interested in abduction, please discuss  it on one of the many topics available here on that subject or start one yourself.
That would have the added advantage of meeting other posters and I assure you -  I will not be amongst them.
They felt obliged to observe certain 'arcane' practices in order to convince more devout RC family members of the truth of their claims. IMHO...

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by BlueBag on 03.07.14 21:27

I  believe the restriction is for SUNDAYS during the 50 day period after Easter.

Read it again and check other websites.


 and the Sundays of AdventLent, and Easter".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_funeral#Funeral_Mass
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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by tigger on 03.07.14 21:32

@juliet wrote:Going back to Kate McCann and her book, diary etc, she has a habit of very nastily mocking people who trouble her. So it is always a clue that she wants to shut people up when she slags them off. Yvonne Martin. Mrs Fenn. Father Pacheco. The PJ. The GNR. The dogs. She tries to say "Don't listen to any of them. They're mad or drunk or weird or unreliable."

The. Book 'madeleine' is just a working title - the proposed title was: 'PAYBACK' - but Mitchell vetoed it.... laughat 

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by truthfultiger on 03.07.14 21:33

Ah thanks BlueBag I think you are right. I read it as the 50 day period being.g separate from all the info about Sundays. That'll teach me to post hastily!

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A Mission From God...?

Post by missbeetle on 03.07.14 21:33

Cheers, Tigger, for reminding me of the Remembrance Days being observed - the timing of religious festivals is, in my opinion - vital to this story.

I do love your not-born-to-it observations of the Anglican Church.

You've got our Father Haynes Hubbard nailed.

Thank you for reminding me of the Huelva thread.

How did I ever miss the Operation Mincemeat connection? (I had not heard the story before, my WWII theatre of war is the Asia/Pacific region)

It is now my belief that a Madeleine lies buried in the Commonwealth War Graves of Huelva.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 03.07.14 21:45

Wow. I must be naive because I really did not expect to encounter that sort of hostility here. Ironically, the reason I registered and posted here today was because I've become increasingly disillusioned with the #mccann hashtag on Twitter, where every debate quickly descends into petty squabbling and personal abuse. 

It appears the "pro's" don't have a monopoly on a stance of "Agree with EVERYTHING we believe, think and say AT ALL TIMES or be SHUNNED."

I'm sorry I appear to have made you so angry Tigger, and I'm sorry you couldn't find anything to support the asinine 3/12/40 day theory. But the good news is that you get your wish because I'll happily leave you now to your ill-informed sectarian fantasies. 

Way to win people over. How deeply dispiriting.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by truthfultiger on 03.07.14 22:07

Hmmm, so have looked into it a bit more and it is usual to have funeral rites on the 3Rd day after death and novenas can be said after death (not sure whether this would take it to the ninth or twelfth day would need to read more). So it is not true ajb that there is no evidence for any of this. I just said I couldn't find anything about 40 days having done a preliminary search. I wouldn't be too dismayed about the forum. It is a discussion forum so there are differences of opinion. Its just that sometimes things get off topic and as far as I can tell its better if discussions are kept on topic within the threads.

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He moves in mysterious ways...

Post by missbeetle on 03.07.14 22:42

" "

I see an inoffensive, slightly Chris Martinesque, oddly-fringed Anglo-Canadian vicar on the left.

On the right, I see a chap who's rocking the interfaith look.

Interesting choice of jacket.

He does love his pens.

A trick of the light and the shirt sleeve behind him, but to me it looks like he is wearing a bridal veil.

Silvery headband/skullcap and all.
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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by ajb on 03.07.14 23:20

Pfffffff.......told myself I wouldn't do this but here goes:
3 days: there is no obligation, requirement or even suggestion in the RC faith that someone should be buried on the third day after their death. By convention the third day  is often the day of the funeral but this varies enormously according to circumstances of death, and - practically - the family. Both of my parents were buried four days after they died as I had family who needed to travel from abroad for the funeral. Relatives of mine who have died abroad and were returned to Ireland have been buried ten days after death. 
9 days: Greeks, Romans and even Jews at one time attached special significance to the ninth day after death, but Catholics do not. 
12 days: the Catholic faith attaches no special significance to the twelfth day after death. You appear to be "reaching" twelve days by adding a Novena to the original fallacious three days in some bizarre act of sacra-mental arithmetic. A Novena is a series of prayers said over nine consecutive days. Any nine consecutive days. There is no convention of which I'm aware of Novenas being said in connection with death, and certainly not prescriptively starting on the third day after death. 
40 days: ???

So, with respect Truthfultiger, I think that must fairly be described as "no evidence". I do thank you for your conciliatory words though. 

Practically, the observance of these obscure Catholic rituals - of which I, as a practicing RC, am completely unaware - by K&G in order to appease older members of their family only makes sense if every single one of those family members knows that Madeleine is dead. Is that what everyone on this thread believes? (And does anyone who doesn't believe it have to leave the thread?)

I believe we're all fellow travellers here - to varying degrees - and it would be very disappointing to me if "debate" on here means "agree or begone", particularly on threads such as this which may be viewed as speculative at best and fantastical at worst.

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Re: Devout Catholics

Post by Judex on 04.07.14 0:22

"But the good news is that you get your wish because I'll happily leave you now to your ill-informed sectarian fantasies. 

Way to win people over. How deeply dispiriting."

This is both inaccurate and offensive.

Moderators, could ajb be yet another deep shill?

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