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Gaspar statements/different perspective

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by guest. on 22.06.14 9:55

nomendelta wrote:I'm quite an astute judge of character and quite often feel there's "something" not right about someone. It can take an awful long time before anything comes to light about what "it" is because we're dealing with instinct. If it's someone I have to be around then I just sit, wait and watch.

I suspect it's a similar attitude here - it was enough to make the Gaspar mother wary of Payne bathing her child and obviously they steered clear of them afterwards anyway but what they saw, on it's own, isn't really enough to take it further. Imagine if they'd confronted Payne and McCann at the time - "What are you talking about, are you a pair of paedos?" Well, it's hardly going to lead to a productive discussion or admission is it? Same with going to the police at the time...it's very much, on it's own, a "he said, she said" situation.

But when you factor in the disappearance of a child, mix in a vague recognition of one of the parties involved by a Social Worker...it becomes more important. I would think most people would have acted as the Gaspars did to be honest.

Good post

Most of us have had a bad feeling about someone and not acted on it any further than to remove ourselves the situation as without concrete proof of anything what other option is there.

If that same person is in a situation to have possibly committed a crime you would feel your opinion was relevant as although not proof of any kind it could help the police look in the right place and at the right person to find the proof.



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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by The Rooster on 22.06.14 9:57

Not a very credible poster, have you been home schooled by the master of the 'Summative Overview?' It's fine to pose questions but impolite in the extreme to abuse the responses. Try harder to engage members attention and try to join in when you have something constructive to say.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by canada12 on 22.06.14 10:02

And that is, in fact, how many crimes are solved. A witness sees or hears something which, at the time, may seem unsettling or uncomfortable, but in itself does not immediately trigger thoughts of "I must report this!"

Then a crime happens, and there's something that links a fact about the crime to the incident in the witness's memory. And suddenly, it does become a case of "I must report this."

As the police (and even the McCanns) will tell you, when hunting for witnesses - anything, even something you may have dismissed at the time, could be the one thing that solves the crime.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Clairelo on 22.06.14 17:17

I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 22.06.14 18:11

Clairelo wrote:I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.

What media coverage is that?
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by BlueBag on 22.06.14 18:26

Google.Gaspar.Statements wrote:
Clairelo wrote:I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.

What media coverage is that?

Hey!

They're not protected... remember?
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by j.rob on 22.06.14 20:08

BlueBag wrote:
Google.Gaspar.Statements wrote:
Clairelo wrote:I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.

What media coverage is that?

Hey!

They're not protected... remember?


Very good point. The Gaspers would have thought very carefully about going to the police. There is no way this would have been done lightly. There is a bit of a code within the medical profession (rather like the Freemasons) that you don't grass on each other.  Apart from anything, there is usually some dirt you can dish out on practically anyone, so you don't want to make yourself a target of a counter attack, which can be especially vicious (particularly if the original accusation/suspicion is true).

The Gaspers, as doctors, will be part of a big network. Not just professionally but socially too. They dared to speak out. There may be (many) others who chose not to.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 21:23

j.rob wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
Google.Gaspar.Statements wrote:
Clairelo wrote:I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.

What media coverage is that?

Hey!

They're not protected... remember?


Very good point. The Gaspers would have thought very carefully about going to the police. There is no way this would have been done lightly. There is a bit of a code within the medical profession (rather like the Freemasons) that you don't grass on each other.  Apart from anything, there is usually some dirt you can dish out on practically anyone, so you don't want to make yourself a target of a counter attack, which can be especially vicious (particularly if the original accusation/suspicion is true).

The Gaspers, as doctors, will be part of a big network. Not just professionally but socially too. They dared to speak out. There may be (many) others who chose not to.

  1. Good medical practice (2013)

    1. 5. In Good medical practice, we use the terms ‘you must’ and ‘you should’ in the following ways.‘You must’ is used for an overriding duty or principle.‘You should’ is used when we are providing an explanation of how you will meet the overriding duty.‘You should’ is also used where the duty or principle will not apply in all situations or circumstances, or where there are factors outside your control that affect whether or how you can follow the guidance.


  2. (...) 36. You must treat colleagues fairly and with respect.(...)

It is more than a code of not grassing on each other.  It is an overriding duty.
If Dr Gaspar had been proven to have made a malicious or false accusation against another doctor she would have risked being disciplined by the GMC, resulting in suspension or worse. 
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Guest on 22.06.14 21:24

What convinced me re the Gaspar's statement, was that they were alarmed reading/hearing about Madeleine gone missing in Portugal, BUT didn't react and not went to the police, UNTIL they realised DP had been there too ....
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by worriedmum on 22.06.14 22:14

Châtelaine wrote:What convinced me re the Gaspar's statement, was that they were alarmed reading/hearing about Madeleine gone missing in Portugal, BUT didn't react and not went to the police, UNTIL they realised DP had been there too ....
Me too Chatelaine!
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 23.06.14 0:12

dantezebu wrote:
j.rob wrote:
BlueBag wrote:
Google.Gaspar.Statements wrote:
Clairelo wrote:I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.

What media coverage is that?

Hey!

They're not protected... remember?


Very good point. The Gaspers would have thought very carefully about going to the police. There is no way this would have been done lightly. There is a bit of a code within the medical profession (rather like the Freemasons) that you don't grass on each other.  Apart from anything, there is usually some dirt you can dish out on practically anyone, so you don't want to make yourself a target of a counter attack, which can be especially vicious (particularly if the original accusation/suspicion is true).

The Gaspers, as doctors, will be part of a big network. Not just professionally but socially too. They dared to speak out. There may be (many) others who chose not to.

  1. Good medical practice (2013)

    1. 5. In Good medical practice, we use the terms ‘you must’ and ‘you should’ in the following ways.‘You must’ is used for an overriding duty or principle.‘You should’ is used when we are providing an explanation of how you will meet the overriding duty.‘You should’ is also used where the duty or principle will not apply in all situations or circumstances, or where there are factors outside your control that affect whether or how you can follow the guidance.


  2. (...) 36. You must treat colleagues fairly and with respect.(...)

It is more than a code of not grassing on each other.  It is an overriding duty.
If Dr Gaspar had been proven to have made a malicious or false accusation against another doctor she would have risked being disciplined by the GMC, resulting in suspension or worse

But you can admit to neglecting your 3 kids every night until one went missing and you don't get disciplined by the GMC, or worse.
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by AndyB on 23.06.14 8:54

Google.Gaspar.Statements wrote:
dantezebu wrote:
It is more than a code of not grassing on each other.  It is an overriding duty.

If Dr Gaspar had been proven to have made a malicious or false accusation against another doctor she would have risked being disciplined by the GMC, resulting in suspension or worse

But you can admit to neglecting your 3 kids every night until one went missing and you don't get disciplined by the GMC, or worse.
Correct. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/927-doctors-keep-jobs-despite-1508052

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by kimHager on 24.06.14 11:50

Howdy justiceseeker
I just saw this thread..its 5:30am and im up and ready to go...

You said we must question everything not just the mccanns.Good point.Dr.Gasper also thought the same way apparently and questioned what she saw,not once mind you but twice. Remember the old saying fool me once shame on you..fool me twice shame on me...well i believe she witnessed this behaviour and questioned it .It seems her husband may not have saw it at first. Many wives will concur with their spouse in situations. I believe this bathing ritual wasnt one she was comfortable with. I also believe this is why no more holiday was spent with them.
Now as for running into them i believe it happens and she did her best to stay objective.I think she has probably questioned if she did the wrong thing by waiting to report it but they were in the same social circles i believe and without proof what do u do? We cant say she did the wrong thing by going to police as she believed a child was missing and possibly harmed or worse.I commend her in taking it to police.
What is so crazy in that?
What theorys here are conspiracy theories? Its obviously something in that range cause it seems like all anyone is left with is questions never answers

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by JohnyT on 06.07.14 23:03

Clairelo wrote:I have the greatest respect for Dr. Katherina Gaspar.   I believe she reacted appropriately  at the time she was made uncomfortable by the remarks/behaviour  of Payne and McCann.   I also very much admire her courage in later  coming forward with her statement to Police following  the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.   She deserves much credit for acting in such a responsible and intelligent manner.   Kudos to you Dr. Gaspar and I am only sorry that your statement to police has caused you to become central in media coverage.
Well I'm sorry but I don't think a responsible and intelligent person would let someone else bathe their children. Call me old fashioned....but in my opinion this just doesn't seem right. Also, whilst I'm on the subject , I wouldn't let my children near another childs' parents (if I had doubts about anything) at a party for instance, nope. I would make some excuse for them not to go.
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Okeydokey on 07.07.14 2:19

kimHager wrote:Howdy justiceseeker
I just saw this thread..its 5:30am and im up and ready to go...

You said we must question everything not just the mccanns.Good point.Dr.Gasper also thought the same way apparently and questioned what she saw,not once mind you but twice. Remember the old saying fool me once shame on you..fool me twice shame on me...well i believe she witnessed this behaviour and questioned it .It seems her husband may not have saw it at first. Many wives will concur with their spouse in situations. I believe this bathing ritual wasnt one she was comfortable with. I also believe this is why no more holiday was spent with them.
Now as for running into them i believe it happens and she did her best to stay objective.I think she has probably questioned if she did the wrong thing by waiting to report it but they were in the same social circles i believe and without proof what do u do? We cant say she did the wrong thing by going to police as she believed a child was missing and possibly harmed or worse.I commend her in taking it to police.
What is so crazy in that?
What theorys here are conspiracy theories? Its obviously something in that range cause it seems like all anyone is left with is questions  never answers

Couldn't agree more. Dr Gaspar just seems to me to be a responsible parent but also a reasonable individual who did not jump to conclusions but equally did not take risks with her children.

I have always felt the statement she signed was certainly an artefact in the sense that it would have been discussed at various senior levels before she signed it because its sensitivity was clear to all. If the Police had wanted to nail someone that statement would have read v. differently in my view.

And then there is the issue of why it took several months to reach the Portugese investigators.

Well we know how the UK press would represent that had it been the Portuguese holding things up: "Bungling foreign police deny investigators vital evidence of..." etc etc


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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by missbeetle on 07.07.14 3:14

Okeydokey wrote:
kimHager wrote:Howdy justiceseeker
I just saw this thread..its 5:30am and im up and ready to go...

You said we must question everything not just the mccanns.Good point.Dr.Gasper also thought the same way apparently and questioned what she saw,not once mind you but twice. Remember the old saying fool me once shame on you..fool me twice shame on me...well i believe she witnessed this behaviour and questioned it .It seems her husband may not have saw it at first. Many wives will concur with their spouse in situations. I believe this bathing ritual wasnt one she was comfortable with. I also believe this is why no more holiday was spent with them.
Now as for running into them i believe it happens and she did her best to stay objective.I think she has probably questioned if she did the wrong thing by waiting to report it but they were in the same social circles i believe and without proof what do u do? We cant say she did the wrong thing by going to police as she believed a child was missing and possibly harmed or worse.I commend her in taking it to police.
What is so crazy in that?
What theorys here are conspiracy theories? Its obviously something in that range cause it seems like all anyone is left with is questions  never answers

Couldn't agree more. Dr Gaspar just seems to me to be a responsible parent but also a reasonable individual who did not jump to conclusions but equally did not take risks with her children.

I have always felt the statement she signed was certainly an artefact in the sense that it would have been discussed at various senior levels before she signed it because its sensitivity was clear to all. If the Police had wanted to nail someone that statement would have read v. differently in my view.

And then there is the issue of why it took several months to reach the Portugese investigators.

Well we know how the UK press would represent that had it been the Portuguese holding things up: "Bungling foreign police deny investigators vital evidence of..." etc etc


Good morning, Kim! Are you a dairy farmer, up very early?

I second what both of you are saying.

My only oddity with the Gaspars - and I am not doubting their concerns at all - is that they were once close enough to the Tapas crew to have gone on

foreign country house holidays with them and their similarly aged children.
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by j.rob on 25.07.14 17:33

I posted on the 'last photo' thread about how I have found nearly all the photos released by the McCanns, and the photos in Kate's book, peculiar in one way or another. Even the wedding photo in the book is strange, imo, because it looks like an 'ad hoc' photo with random people in the background, rather than a more formal photo. And, according to Kate in her book, they wanted the friends and extended family to be there. So it's not as though it was a small occasion. Kate does not even mention who was the best man or the bridesmaids or anything which I find a little strange.

So I wondered who did go to their wedding and I remember that the Gaspers said in their police statements that they attended the McCann's wedding in 1998 in Liverpool. So I re-read the Gasper statements (given to police in May 2007) and what struck me was that the couple individually give quite different accounts of when they were in contact with the McCanns.

Mrs Gasper makes it clear that she first met the McCanns at their wedding in 1998 as they were invited because Kate and her husband were old friends dating back to medical school days. She states that from that time onwards - ie: from the time of the wedding - they met up about three times a year and also had weekends away together. 

There is no mention of the McCanns being in Amsterdam for the whole of 2004 (as Kate has written in her book) which is perhaps a little strange. But Mrs Gasper does mention a weekend they spent with Kate and Gerry in 2002 or 2003 in Devon. You would have thought, perhaps, that she would remember the year because in 2002 Kate would not have been pregnant whereas in 2003 she would either have been pregnant on the holiday weekend or she would have had a baby with her ("Gerry and I took the kids everywhere - in fact I'd only ever een apart from them for one night - so they were used to travelling." - Madeleine, page 42). 

As for the Amsterdam year, you might have expected Mrs Gasper to say something like: 'We didn't see them for a year as they went to Amsterdam when Madeleine was a baby." 

Mr Gasper states that after attending the McCann's wedding in 1998, they lost contact with the couple. He states: "I think they went to New Zealand. We only met up again in 2001 in Birmingham." 

How could Mr Gasper have thought that the McCanns went to live in New Zealand after their wedding, when his wife clearly stated that from the time of the wedding: "we met as friends about three times a year and we would spent weekends away together. I would say that we became intimate friends of Gerry and Kate."


Odd! 


And Mr Gasper also does not refer to the year that the McCann's are supposed to have spent in Amsterdam in 2004.

"From 2001 and 2005 we were in regular contact and often visited each other's homes."

 "The couple (in 2001)  visited us in the house where we then living, in ******, and this was the first time I talked to Gerry." 

How could the couple have such different memories of their contact with the McCanns from the end of 1998 until some time in 2001? I do find this strange. 

Mr Gasper: "I have known Kate since 1987, when we met at Dundee Medical School, and became friends. We have remained in touch all this time and meet up 3 or 4 times a year, we often talk on the phone or email each other."

Mrs Gasper: "As far as I know, Savio did not know Gerry before the above mentioned wedding. From that time onwards, we met as friends about three times a year and we would spent weekends away together. I would say that we became intimate friends of Gerry and Kate."

And given that the families appeared to have got together at the time of children's birthdays, it is noticeable that there is no mention at all in either of the Gasper statements of Madeleine's or the twins births or of any of their birthdays. 

Mrs Gasper:  "In the last two years, we have met, as a family, with the McCanns, every now and then. This mainly happens on the children's birthdays, a time when we meet up."

Mr Gasper: "The last time I saw Kate, Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie was in March 2007 when they came to our house for the first birthday celebration of my daughter *****."



 

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by sonic72 on 25.07.14 18:13

I see mccann minions bring up this topic time and time again on the internet, initially making out they think the mccanns are innocent etc, but then displaying the opposite with their questioning.

These types obviously have an agenda, and they are fooling nobody!

OP, your turn to answer a question.....

Why havent the mccanns, or david payne refuted the Gaspar's statements?

Over to you OP....

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by j.rob on 25.07.14 21:30

I do not question the integrity of the Gaspers, per se. They would have thought very carefully about making those statements. And they had the  courage to come forward when there may be many others who had doubts or suspicions but chose to remain silent. It would have been much simpler for the Gaspers to remain silent. The majority of people want to have an uncomplicated life and do not want to get embroiled in other people's problems.

I am simply interested in, what appear to me, to be somewhat conflicting statements. And I am a bit intrigued as to why that would be. 

What are the undercurrents floating around?

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by HelenMeg on 25.07.14 22:08

j.rob wrote:I do not question the integrity of the Gaspers, per se. They would have thought very carefully about making those statements. And they had the  courage to come forward when there may be many others who had doubts or suspicions but chose to remain silent. It would have been much simpler for the Gaspers to remain silent. The majority of people want to have an uncomplicated life and do not want to get embroiled in other people's problems.

I am simply interested in, what appear to me, to be somewhat conflicting statements. And I am a bit intrigued as to why that would be. 

What are the undercurrents floating around?
I find the inconsistency very strange indeed. They were 'intimate' friends of the Mc Canns. NOt just friends or acquaintances - but intimate friends. Therefore I would expect them to be confidants.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by suzyjohnson on 25.07.14 22:31

j.rob wrote:I do not question the integrity of the Gaspers, per se. They would have thought very carefully about making those statements. And they had the  courage to come forward when there may be many others who had doubts or suspicions but chose to remain silent. It would have been much simpler for the Gaspers to remain silent. The majority of people want to have an uncomplicated life and do not want to get embroiled in other people's problems.

I am simply interested in, what appear to me, to be somewhat conflicting statements. And I am a bit intrigued as to why that would be. 

What are the undercurrents floating around?

I'd be inclined to think that Gaspar just didn't have a very good memory. By the time of the statements in 2007, they would have been talking of 8-10 years earlier, Gaspar knew the McCanns had lived in New Zealand for a while, I expect he just got mixed up. Specific dates / years are probably not that important to him.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by kimHager on 25.07.14 23:24

Women seem to remember these type of get togethers better than men, my fiance would undoubtedly say ask Kim if asked about get togethers and such.. It's like they sometimes draw a blank? Either way I believe they know we're maybe "intimate " friends which IF that was the case then I could see how the subject of sexual references could be brought out in conversation but the children had NO place in any of that. JMO

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by worriedmum on 26.07.14 11:56

Two points:

Firstly, unlike other statements under scrutiny on this forum, the Gaspars' statements are attempting to recall events not from hours or days previous, but YEARS. They did not have the benefit of a sticker book for ease of reference.

Secondly, the tidal wave of arrests for sexual offences and paedophilia which we have all read about in the press has made it obvious to me that some crimes are doubly pernicious in that they are subject to massive social taboos. People , prominent people, who are now saying that 'they had heard rumours' ,but did nothing to prevent crimes against the most vulnerable in our society. People who now express 'shock' and 'regret'.  The Gaspars were put in an uncomfortable situation where they felt their own children could be exposed to  unwanted attention. They monitored their children carefully, limited contact with the people concerned and eventually withdrew themselves from the group. I do not see anything untoward about their response to the situation.
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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by Woofer on 18.10.14 13:49

Some children are sexually provocative/precocious - it can indicate problems.

At a young age they can exhibit sexually provocative behaviours - don`t ask me why - I just know it happens.

If there had been such a problem I can understand a parent being worried and discussing it with a friend/colleague who might say `does she do this and that?`.

I`m not saying she did have a problem, just suggesting an alternative explanation to what the Gaspars witnessed.

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Re: Gaspar statements/different perspective

Post by plebgate on 18.10.14 18:52

Woofer wrote:Some children are sexually provocative/precocious - it can indicate problems.

At a young age they can exhibit sexually provocative behaviours - don`t ask me why - I just know it happens.

If there had been such a problem I can understand a parent being worried and discussing it with a friend/colleague who might say `does she do this and that?`.

I`m not saying she did have a problem, just suggesting an alternative explanation to what the Gaspars witnessed.
I am not quite sure what your post means woofer but if it is what i think you are saying I find your comment quite strange really.

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