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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

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Latest interview with Dr Amaral - copied from Joana Morais - with thanks - Page 17 Mm11

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Latest interview with Dr Amaral - copied from Joana Morais - with thanks

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Post by Liz Eagles 11.06.14 13:03

Mirage wrote:
Doug D wrote:Yes, CM flew back to PdL with GM on 22nd May, having apparently met him for the first time on 21st.

He then hung around with them for three weeks, before disappearing for a few months.

Justine went out on 22nd June and stayed till September.
That would be the Justine who memorably told Geraldo to stick to THE OFFICIAL LINE when he went into meltdown when asked about the dogs' evidence.

Here she is from circa 0.33 trying to save the situation. At around 0.37 she says:

"JUST SAY IT'S SPECULATION SO THAT YOU CAN THEN STICK TO THE OFFICIAL LINE"

OFFICIAL LINE? GRACIOUS. SURELY NOT. That would be a conspiracy theory too far, and all logicians know that cannot be the case.

You can see the cogs turning on KH's face. No wonder she shuts Justine up: "It's 'ot in 'ere. Give 'im a minute."

You see, if you don't dig around the political scene you won't dig anything up will you? That's logic of a sort. Depends on whether you want to sit and write piss poor put-downs of others' efforts. and dip into the insults bag when the sophistry wears thin.

Windy Miller. Listen and learn. Especially from others here who could leave you standing in the research department.

 whacky

 
You never fail to make sense and make my day Mirage.
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 13:05

Mirage wrote:
You see, if you don't dig around the political scene you won't dig anything up will you? That's logic of a sort. Depends on whether you want to sit and write piss poor put-downs of others' efforts. and dip into the insults bag when the sophistry wears thin.

Windy Miller. Listen and learn. Especially from others here who could leave you standing in the research department.

 whacky

 

Nothing to add. I just logged in especially to quote that bit.
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 13:25

Government involvement in 2007, like Clarence Mitchell, with his characteristically open, affable style of lying, getting sent out to help the distressed family after the murder, sorry, loss of their child, doesn't mean that the searching and digging now done by Grange is part of a cover up of something very very secret.
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Post by AndyB 11.06.14 13:26

CynicAl wrote:
AndyB wrote:
CynicAl wrote:I ask again - what purpose does disingenuously reopening the investigation have which wouldn't be better served by having left it alone? Do you really think the majority of the red top reading public thought the PJ did such a good job that SY had to spend £10m to (unsuccessfully so far) try to change public perception? 
Again you're ignoring the context. The establishment were quite happy to leave it all alone until Rebekah Brooks threatened David Cameron with god knows what. It was this threat that caused the review to be opened. Having been forced to open the review the powers that be, or at least that part of them that wants something hidden, have to deal with the situation. What better way is there to do this than to ensure that the review's conclusion, whatever it might be, maintains the secret?

A better question would be why did the review get upgraded to an investigation when the Met has no jurisdiction over abductions in Portugal? (The only answer I have is that the Met cannot be investigating abduction)

ETA And can we have a response to the question re Clarence Mitchel that Hicks asked and that Gollum is pressing for? I'd like to read what you think as well
I'm sorry, but if you're going to talk about context, talk about context. But be broad and thorough, don't just invent a context based on a summarised fragment of gossip abstracted from the annals of time. 

If you think that a government trying to bury a cold case reopened it because a scandalised newspaper editor 'threatened the PM with bad publicity' you're delusional. People serious enough to commit to being accessory to infanticide or pervert the course of justice aren't going to be threatened by someone whose neck is on a political or criminal block. To think that's all there is to Brooks' claim is naive and ignorant of the nature of both NI and the Tory Government. Arguably if RB was coercing DC to pervert the course of justice DC could terminate RB just on her involvement and blackmail alone. 

To establish the 'context' you have to know what she said and why she said it, and the background to it. You can't have Murdoch Ltd trying to save the Mc's and trying to drown them simultaneously. Did RB want the case reopened to corrupt it, or to conclude it? Without knowing that you can't know what will that interchange represented, and all you have are fragmented claims with no qualification.
I don't believe that the cover-up is to protect the McCanns.

Prior to the decision to start the review being made, the establishment were quite happy to let the matter lie - which was the point I was making - and were behaving as you suggest that they should if a cover-up was going on. Then something happened to cause the government to open the review. I've suggested the something was Brooks threatening Cameron, which you think is delusional. I think your language is unnecessarily rude and designed to belittle but I agree it could just as easily be something else. What do you think the something else is? Whatever it was it lead to a calculation that allowing a review with a remit focussed solely on abduction was more important than leaving the Madeleine case to be quietly forgotten. (Remember this wasn't a review of the evidence to establish what happened to Madeleine, it was handicapped from the start by being limited to abduction. That alone must surely suggest to you that something isn't quite right)
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Post by tigger 11.06.14 13:30

@ Mirage -  or Scheherazade for me, never a dull moment when you're around to activate dormant braincells -

This always struck me as a good reminder of the background of the time: the prum treaty and the blessed EU DNA data base.
Cognitive history  and now off to add info to 2006.. You do make me work  winkwink 

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6861-amber-alert-the-prum-treaty-and-government-interference-in-the-mccann-case?highlight=Prum+treaty

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Post by AndyB 11.06.14 13:34

MarcoG wrote:Government involvement in 2007, like Clarence Mitchell, with his characteristically open, affable style of lying, getting sent out to help the distressed family after the murder, sorry, loss of their child, doesn't mean that the searching and digging now done by Grange is part of a cover up of something very very secret.
Quite right but the government was involved in 2007 for a reason. Does that reason still exist today? My view is that it does and that Grange is underpinned by a need to hide the original reason for governmental involvement.

Quite why Grange came about is a moot point
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Post by Snifferdog 11.06.14 13:35

I always enjoy reading your posts Mirage. Very sensible, concise and to the point.  :flower: 

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Post by PeterMac 11.06.14 13:38

[quote=Doug D] wrote:
Yes, CM flew back to PdL with GM on 22nd May, having apparently met him for the first time on 21st.
He then hung around with them for three weeks, before disappearing for a few months.[/quote]
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Post by Liz Eagles 11.06.14 13:45

PeterMac wrote:
Doug D wrote: wrote:
Yes, CM flew back to PdL with GM on 22nd May, having apparently met him for the first time on 21st.
He then hung around with them for three weeks, before disappearing for a few months.
Don't forget that Clarence's wife miscarried their son whilst he was representing the McCanns in PDL and Clarence felt closer to the McCanns as a result.

This man will even use the loss of his own child to support the McCanns. He will use the grief of his wife's miscarriage to support a campaign.

What a loathsome creature.
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Post by Cristobell 11.06.14 13:46

PeterMac wrote:
Doug D wrote: wrote:
Yes, CM flew back to PdL with GM on 22nd May, having apparently met him for the first time on 21st.
He then hung around with them for three weeks, before disappearing for a few months.
The willingness of the McCann and Healy families, friends and advisors to abandon their own lives and spend weeks on end with the McCanns in the beautiful holiday resort of Prai de Luz is commendable or at least its some other word I can't think of at the moment.
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 13:48

AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:Government involvement in 2007, like Clarence Mitchell, with his characteristically open, affable style of lying, getting sent out to help the distressed family after the murder, sorry, loss of their child, doesn't mean that the searching and digging now done by Grange is part of a cover up of something very very secret.
Quite right but the government was involved in 2007 for a reason. Does that reason still exist today? My view is that it does and that Grange is underpinned by a need to hide the original reason for governmental involvement.

Quite why Grange came about is a moot point
There's only a reason to think so, if you have a good reason to think that the original cover uppers, if involvement ever was more than servicing assistance to the parents that got corrupted at parents' level, still need to take such huge mediacovered action, in Portugal, apparently granted by a Portuguese judge, with so much manpower on the ground, supervised by Portuguese police, co-coördinated by the CPS, and paid for by the public through the politicians of today, in order to cover it all up.
Let alone that nobody breaks rank.
 
Only then.
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 13:56

@ CynicAl

"And yes, actually, I still think you're being as illogical as I always did.  I understand why. But understanding why you're like that, and thinking that the paranoi(a)c conspiracy theorist redefinition of logical deduction is of any benefit to an investigation like this are two different things."

This is not an investigation, that's for the police.  This is a discussion forum, nothing more nothing less.
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 14:00

CynicAl wrote:
AndyB wrote:
CynicAl wrote:I ask again - what purpose does disingenuously reopening the investigation have which wouldn't be better served by having left it alone? Do you really think the majority of the red top reading public thought the PJ did such a good job that SY had to spend £10m to (unsuccessfully so far) try to change public perception? 
Again you're ignoring the context. The establishment were quite happy to leave it all alone until Rebekah Brooks threatened David Cameron with god knows what. It was this threat that caused the review to be opened. Having been forced to open the review the powers that be, or at least that part of them that wants something hidden, have to deal with the situation. What better way is there to do this than to ensure that the review's conclusion, whatever it might be, maintains the secret?

A better question would be why did the review get upgraded to an investigation when the Met has no jurisdiction over abductions in Portugal? (The only answer I have is that the Met cannot be investigating abduction)

ETA And can we have a response to the question re Clarence Mitchel that Hicks asked and that Gollum is pressing for? I'd like to read what you think as well
I'm sorry, but if you're going to talk about context, talk about context. But be broad and thorough, don't just invent a context based on a summarised fragment of gossip abstracted from the annals of time. 

If you think that a government trying to bury a cold case reopened it because a scandalised newspaper editor 'threatened the PM with bad publicity' you're delusional. People serious enough to commit to being accessory to infanticide or pervert the course of justice aren't going to be threatened by someone whose neck is on a political or criminal block. To think that's all there is to Brooks' claim is naive and ignorant of the nature of both NI and the Tory Government. Arguably if RB was coercing DC to pervert the course of justice DC could terminate RB just on her involvement and blackmail alone. 

To establish the 'context' you have to know what she said and why she said it, and the background to it. You can't have Murdoch Ltd trying to save the Mc's and trying to drown them simultaneously. Did RB want the case reopened to corrupt it, or to conclude it? Without knowing that you can't know what will that interchange represented, and all you have are fragmented claims with no qualification.

I'm sure you're quite right CynicAl with whatever you are trying to say but you still haven't answered the question/s.  If you don't have answers you only have to say and I will drop the subject, at least where you're concerned.
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Post by Guest 11.06.14 14:05

Halfwit wrote:@CynicalAl.
 
I enjoy your posts but I can't debate with you and others, I lack the brainpower hence my username but I trust my instincts which in seventy years have got me out of scrapes, especially in the late sixties/seventies when I was carefree and naive. Just one example - my friend and I opened a tiny basement charcoal grill restaurant in Earl's Court. Within three weeks the protection gang came down to suss us out. Two of them asking questions the first time (we used to be there in the afternoons cooking starters and puds) then they came back with their Big Man who didn't utter a word. Just stood there with his overcoat on his shoulders trying to look like Marlon Brando.

Of course we'd wondered about the first visit but the second appearance was a bit scary with their stance. We just carried on with what we were doing and being friendly dumb blonde idiots. Eventually Marlon decided we weren't worth bothering with and gave the nod to his minions and we were never troubled again.

My point:-


 "driven by a need for control and the need to manipulate public perception and opinion, until they got so used to lying that it became a new truth to them. I suspect the first thing they'll do if arrested and convicted, is really grieve. I doubt they've even given themselves the chance, yet. "

To me is a very perceptive observation.

The alternative of course is that they may never be able to truly grieve.

Unless I missed something in the small print, I don't believe there is any stipulation by the forum administrators that a particular level of intelligence is required before a registered member can comment on any topic.  Don't be put off, we are all here for the same reason, I hope!

I rather like the name Halfwit, it has a quality of simplicity and honesty.  On that basis I think I'll change my user name to dimwit!
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Post by tigger 11.06.14 14:09

Gollum wrote:
Halfwit wrote:@CynicalAl.
 
I enjoy your posts but I can't debate with you and others, I lack the brainpower hence my username but I trust my instincts which in seventy years have got me out of scrapes, especially in the late sixties/seventies when I was carefree and naive. Just one example - my friend and I opened a tiny basement charcoal grill restaurant in Earl's Court. Within three weeks the protection gang came down to suss us out. Two of them asking questions the first time (we used to be there in the afternoons cooking starters and puds) then they came back with their Big Man who didn't utter a word. Just stood there with his overcoat on his shoulders trying to look like Marlon Brando.

Of course we'd wondered about the first visit but the second appearance was a bit scary with their stance. We just carried on with what we were doing and being friendly dumb blonde idiots. Eventually Marlon decided we weren't worth bothering with and gave the nod to his minions and we were never troubled again.

My point:-


 "driven by a need for control and the need to manipulate public perception and opinion, until they got so used to lying that it became a new truth to them. I suspect the first thing they'll do if arrested and convicted, is really grieve. I doubt they've even given themselves the chance, yet. "

To me is a very perceptive observation.

The alternative of course is that they may never be able to truly grieve.

Unless I missed something in the small print, I don't believe there is any stipulation by the forum administrators that a particular level of intelligence is required before a registered member can comment on any topic.  Don't be put off, we are all here for the same reason, I hope!

I rather like the name Halfwit, it has a quality of simplicity and honesty.  On that basis I think I'll change my user name to dimwit!

No don't worry about that. gerry decided they'd start grieving around the 11th June 2007, on record - on their return from Morocco.

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Post by jeanmonroe 11.06.14 14:37

Would that be the Morocco, just 35 minutes away, from Portugal/Spain, that the McCanns took 40 (FORTY) DAYS to 'arrive' in?
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Post by AndyB 11.06.14 14:45

MarcoG wrote:
AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:Government involvement in 2007, like Clarence Mitchell, with his characteristically open, affable style of lying, getting sent out to help the distressed family after the murder, sorry, loss of their child, doesn't mean that the searching and digging now done by Grange is part of a cover up of something very very secret.
Quite right but the government was involved in 2007 for a reason. Does that reason still exist today? My view is that it does and that Grange is underpinned by a need to hide the original reason for governmental involvement.

Quite why Grange came about is a moot point
There's only a reason to think so, if you have a good reason to think that the original cover uppers, if involvement ever was more than servicing assistance to the parents that got corrupted at parents' level, still need to take such huge mediacovered action, in Portugal, apparently granted by a Portuguese judge, with so much manpower on the ground, supervised by Portuguese police, co-coördinated by the CPS, and paid for by the public through the politicians of today, in order to cover it all up.
Let alone that nobody breaks rank.
 
Only then.
I understand what you're saying but I don't believe the Portuguese police, are involved in the cover-up. Neither are the majority of the Met/CPS. It only takes a guiding hand at the top (such as restricting Grange to abduction theories only for example) to hide the reasons for the government getting involved in 2007. Don't forget we still don't know why they did get involved so the cover-up, if one exists, is working.
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Post by Sceptic 11.06.14 14:54

AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:
AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:Government involvement in 2007, like Clarence Mitchell, with his characteristically open, affable style of lying, getting sent out to help the distressed family after the murder, sorry, loss of their child, doesn't mean that the searching and digging now done by Grange is part of a cover up of something very very secret.
Quite right but the government was involved in 2007 for a reason. Does that reason still exist today? My view is that it does and that Grange is underpinned by a need to hide the original reason for governmental involvement.

Quite why Grange came about is a moot point
There's only a reason to think so, if you have a good reason to think that the original cover uppers, if involvement ever was more than servicing assistance to the parents that got corrupted at parents' level, still need to take such huge mediacovered action, in Portugal, apparently granted by a Portuguese judge, with so much manpower on the ground, supervised by Portuguese police, co-coördinated by the CPS, and paid for by the public through the politicians of today, in order to cover it all up.
Let alone that nobody breaks rank.
 
Only then.
I understand what you're saying but I don't believe the Portuguese police, are involved in the cover-up. Neither are the majority of the Met/CPS. It only takes a guiding hand at the top (such as restricting Grange to abduction theories only for example) to hide the reasons for the government getting involved in 2007. Don't forget we still don't know why they did get involved so the cover-up, if one exists, is working.
But it is a totally different government (conservative/libdem) today than it was in 2007 (Labour)
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Post by SixMillionQuid 11.06.14 15:16

Sceptic wrote:
AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:
AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:Government involvement in 2007, like Clarence Mitchell, with his characteristically open, affable style of lying, getting sent out to help the distressed family after the murder, sorry, loss of their child, doesn't mean that the searching and digging now done by Grange is part of a cover up of something very very secret.
Quite right but the government was involved in 2007 for a reason. Does that reason still exist today? My view is that it does and that Grange is underpinned by a need to hide the original reason for governmental involvement.

Quite why Grange came about is a moot point
There's only a reason to think so, if you have a good reason to think that the original cover uppers, if involvement ever was more than servicing assistance to the parents that got corrupted at parents' level, still need to take such huge mediacovered action, in Portugal, apparently granted by a Portuguese judge, with so much manpower on the ground, supervised by Portuguese police, co-coördinated by the CPS, and paid for by the public through the politicians of today, in order to cover it all up.
Let alone that nobody breaks rank.
 
Only then.
I understand what you're saying but I don't believe the Portuguese police, are involved in the cover-up. Neither are the majority of the Met/CPS. It only takes a guiding hand at the top (such as restricting Grange to abduction theories only for example) to hide the reasons for the government getting involved in 2007. Don't forget we still don't know why they did get involved so the cover-up, if one exists, is working.
But it is a totally different government (conservative/libdem) today than it was in 2007 (Labour)
But they're all singing from the same hymn sheet. And even under a change of government the staff working in government departments don't change -its the same old faces working to a different master.

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Post by CynicAl 11.06.14 15:31

Hongkong Phooey wrote:
CynicAl wrote:
SixMillionQuid wrote:
Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Loving Mom wrote:
CynicAl wrote:Hmmm.

I've repeatedly asserted that a high level conspiracy to cover-up and pervert the course of justice from the outset would have resulted in this case looking very, very different, having been dead and moot for several years by now, never to be resurrected, with the principals who could open their mouths and spoil it all being as quiet as the grave, or else in the grave.

The reason why is that if you're going to be secretive, you don't want loose ends, loose nuts, loose cannons...


IMO
CynicAl is making the most sense. By applying the facts to the case, he is by far the most logical in stating this does not resemble a cover up or whitewash at all.
Well that's your opinion (which you're entitled to) mines is he's wrong and is posting long winded efforts to wear down the 'opposition'. I'll stick with Dr Amaral, he knows a lot more about the case and is concise with his thoughts.
Yep, seen it happen before, then they disappear in a puff of smoke...and then reappear in a different guise with the same arguments.

If I believed this was a genuine investigation I would be expecting certain individuals, whom we all know, to be arrested. If that does not happen then someone has some explaining to do, especially to me.
All things being equal. 

The difference between you and me is that I think this case runs on the time frame precedent already set.  You seem to think it should run on a time frame which satisfies your attention span, else you'll (possibly falsely) believe that the whole thing is a cover up. 

No one knows until the fat lass crows, but the available evidence simply does not support an organised, grand high level conspiracy which is exactly what would be needed to have a hope of putting this case into a box of obscurity, and exactlywhat is not in any way "in evidence."

Your certainly desperate to shoot down anybody who merely hints at any sort of conspiracy / cover up. Why is that when there is clear evidence that an enormous amount of help by government officials etc. was put in place from the get-go. Anf what about the CM question you keep being asked to comment on.....
Not sure what web forum you're reading, but on the one I'm participating on I'm doing anything but shooting anyone down. I'm actually entrenched, under siege and holding my position. Quite how one person is supposedly annihilating a hoarde of tag-teamers is beyond me. You're either conceding that I'm superman or this is the same wild hyperbole that sees a government conspiracy under the beds and in the closets at 5a.

If there is evidence of help by government officials it is anything but clear and the help anything but enormous. You have no proof that if it were any other people in any other place in 2007 they would not get similar help. I know you'll now rush to mention Ben Needham. You have no idea that the reason why the McCanns got such 'disproportionate' assistance at the outset wasn't because someone in the FCO didn't say "oh sh##, not again... You do know we need to do a lot more than we did with Needham... We can't afford another set of parents claiming that we haven't searched from the depths of hell to the heights of heaven to find their missing child." You also don't know that the authorities didn't look extensively at that case on the basis that the vast majority of children go missing at the hands of someone they know. '
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Post by CynicAl 11.06.14 15:47

Popcorn wrote:
CynicAl wrote:
AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:Looks as if not going along with the almost psychotic view of a grand conspiracy whitewash, is becoming viewed here as 'working for the enemy'. But who benefits from the idea of an all corrupt  investigation?
 
To quote the literate Tony Bennett, ' "cui" bono'. Terribly sorry, but this is all getting a bit silly.
Less of the abuse please Marco. Perhaps we could have your view of the reasons for Clarence Mitchel's sudden departure for Portugal when it was very possible that Madeleine could turn up at any moment

As to who benefits, that all depends on what it is that is being covered up but I think you're asking the wrong question. The correct question is why did the establishment get so involved so quickly, ignoring concerns about the parents that were raised by their own diplomats? I would genuinely be interested in an explanation for it that doesn't involve a cover-up of something
Lets be real for a moment... If CM was deployed by top level people to protect the Mc's then what those top people sent was the equivalent of the cinematically proverbial 'state funded attorney provided if you can' t afford your own' - slimy, greasy turd that if he was American would be wearing a polyester suit and crocodile skin boots. He's tepid, stomach churning and insincere and everyone knows how crooked and self-absorbed he is. 

FFS, an intelligent high level conspiracy would have sent them a female PR, to empathise with KM and have people thinking 'an attractive, modern woman in PR would definitely never cover up a crime like this.' 

He was (i) either there in his own haste, to cash in, (ii) sent to keep an eye on them, (iii) sent to give them the worst image possible by someone who didn' t like them.
I am no fan of Clarence Mitchell (or the Conservative party, for that matter), but if his presence at someone's side is guaranteed to deliver them a bad image, it seems odd that the Tories should have selected him to represent them at the next election.

Well, being objective for a moment, all the things that make him a terrible choice for a PR in a case like this are generally prerequisites for politics in the Tory party.

And I didn't say that his very presence was guaranteed to deliver them a bad image, I'm suggesting that he might not necessarily have been paid to give them a good image. If for a moment you were agreeing that he was a terrible choice and did a poor job for them, serving to make them appear more guilty, then you can also imagine for a moment that if the mysterious benefactor who paid his salary had an ulterior motive to have direct access to the McCann camp, to steer the direction of their PR team unhelpfully, then it is also arguable that the hasty procurement of CM pre-empted the more considered procurement of someone recommended and hired directly, by someone who wanted a more favourable, better considered outcome. Someone wanted the media to be steered in a fairly common direction, and yet the evidence is that the media is not actually all co-operating, and never really has been, but has been operating under the constraints of gagging orders and superinjunctions.

Thinking outside the box for a minute, CM has actually fulfilled a vital, tangible role for one group of people specifically... When the Mc's, who were clearly despised by several media outlets at the very least, and are clearly doubted by many more, began issuing superinjunctions, the natural instinct of a newspaper, especially a tabloid, should have been to shut them down - that is to ensure that their 'cause' received as little publicity as possible. After all, even the government cannot compel newspapers to print stories designed to promote and support the very people who shut them down for printing any of the lucrative gossip that swirls around. It has not been uncommon for media outlets to shun the awkward, primadonna media whores in this way, or for paps to turn their backs on the attention-seekers who stomp their feet about press intrusion, sending the message 'don't bite the hand that feeds you... if we didn't take your picture and publish your quirky itinerary and splash your gossip on our pages you'd be nothing.'

So what did CM do?

In the midst of superinjunctions he clearly organised a veritable orgy of spurious information that he gave the media the go-ahead to publish. He kept them in business when it came to the McCann's. If it wasn't for the BS that he conjured up, they'd have had nothing to print about the Mc Case to keep it in the public gaze, because sure as hell the only things the Mc's have been doing for seven years is attending tea parties, searching five star hotels and doing sponsored runs.

We all assume that the agenda that initially set CM in motion as a McSeniorStaffer was a benevolent one.

It may have been ambivalent, it may have been antagonistic, but it was certainly a possibility that it was all about spin and counter spin, the control of information, the acquisition of the scoops before anyone else knew.

Maybe.

Again, more plausible than any fantasist who says 'CM is M'.
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Post by SixMillionQuid 11.06.14 15:57

CynicAl wrote:
Hongkong Phooey wrote:
CynicAl wrote:
SixMillionQuid wrote:
Hongkong Phooey wrote:
Well that's your opinion (which you're entitled to) mines is he's wrong and is posting long winded efforts to wear down the 'opposition'. I'll stick with Dr Amaral, he knows a lot more about the case and is concise with his thoughts.
Yep, seen it happen before, then they disappear in a puff of smoke...and then reappear in a different guise with the same arguments.

If I believed this was a genuine investigation I would be expecting certain individuals, whom we all know, to be arrested. If that does not happen then someone has some explaining to do, especially to me.
All things being equal. 

The difference between you and me is that I think this case runs on the time frame precedent already set.  You seem to think it should run on a time frame which satisfies your attention span, else you'll (possibly falsely) believe that the whole thing is a cover up. 

No one knows until the fat lass crows, but the available evidence simply does not support an organised, grand high level conspiracy which is exactly what would be needed to have a hope of putting this case into a box of obscurity, and exactlywhat is not in any way "in evidence."

Your certainly desperate to shoot down anybody who merely hints at any sort of conspiracy / cover up. Why is that when there is clear evidence that an enormous amount of help by government officials etc. was put in place from the get-go. Anf what about the CM question you keep being asked to comment on.....
Not sure what web forum you're reading, but on the one I'm participating on I'm doing anything but shooting anyone down. I'm actually entrenched, under siege and holding my position. Quite how one person is supposedly annihilating a hoarde of tag-teamers is beyond me. You're either conceding that I'm superman or this is the same wild hyperbole that sees a government conspiracy under the beds and in the closets at 5a.

If there is evidence of help by government officials it is anything but clear and the help anything but enormous. You have no proof that if it were any other people in any other place in 2007 they would not get similar help. I know you'll now rush to mention Ben Needham. You have no idea that the reason why the McCanns got such 'disproportionate' assistance at the outset wasn't because someone in the FCO didn't say "oh sh##, not again... You do know we need to do a lot more than we did with Needham... We can't afford another set of parents claiming that we haven't searched from the depths of hell to the heights of heaven to find their missing child." You also don't know that the authorities didn't look extensively at that case on the basis that the vast majority of children go missing at the hands of someone they know. '
ZZZzzz.

So I take it from this response you do consider Goncalo Amaral a conspirital loon.
Im trying to think of another British family that have been afforded a smidgen of the level of government AND media assistance as the McCanns have. I'm struggling!

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Post by tigger 11.06.14 15:59

jeanmonroe wrote:Would that be the Morocco, just 35 minutes away, from  Portugal/Spain, that the McCanns took 40 (FORTY) DAYS to 'arrive' in?

Depemding on when the cadaver scent first appeared in 5a - say may 1st, the 9 th of June would be exactly 40 days. And by an amazing coincidence thry had a meeting in Sagres with family and friends, some of whom flew in the previous day.
Gerry doesn't tell us much in his blog, then tells us on the Monday or Tuesday - think it was the twelth that it's exactly 40 days she was abducted.
40 days after a person dies is meant to be for a memorial service iirc .

Two days later Gerry tells the journalists that they need time to grieve.

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Post by endgame 11.06.14 16:03

CynicAl wrote:
Popcorn wrote:
CynicAl wrote:
AndyB wrote:
MarcoG wrote:Looks as if not going along with the almost psychotic view of a grand conspiracy whitewash, is becoming viewed here as 'working for the enemy'. But who benefits from the idea of an all corrupt  investigation?
 
To quote the literate Tony Bennett, ' "cui" bono'. Terribly sorry, but this is all getting a bit silly.
Less of the abuse please Marco. Perhaps we could have your view of the reasons for Clarence Mitchel's sudden departure for Portugal when it was very possible that Madeleine could turn up at any moment

As to who benefits, that all depends on what it is that is being covered up but I think you're asking the wrong question. The correct question is why did the establishment get so involved so quickly, ignoring concerns about the parents that were raised by their own diplomats? I would genuinely be interested in an explanation for it that doesn't involve a cover-up of something
Lets be real for a moment... If CM was deployed by top level people to protect the Mc's then what those top people sent was the equivalent of the cinematically proverbial 'state funded attorney provided if you can' t afford your own' - slimy, greasy turd that if he was American would be wearing a polyester suit and crocodile skin boots. He's tepid, stomach churning and insincere and everyone knows how crooked and self-absorbed he is. 

FFS, an intelligent high level conspiracy would have sent them a female PR, to empathise with KM and have people thinking 'an attractive, modern woman in PR would definitely never cover up a crime like this.' 

He was (i) either there in his own haste, to cash in, (ii) sent to keep an eye on them, (iii) sent to give them the worst image possible by someone who didn' t like them.
I am no fan of Clarence Mitchell (or the Conservative party, for that matter), but if his presence at someone's side is guaranteed to deliver them a bad image, it seems odd that the Tories should have selected him to represent them at the next election.

Well, being objective for a moment, all the things that make him a terrible choice for a PR in a case like this are generally prerequisites for politics in the Tory party.

And I didn't say that his very presence was guaranteed to deliver them a bad image, I'm suggesting that he might not necessarily have been paid to give them a good image. If for a moment you were agreeing that he was a terrible choice and did a poor job for them, serving to make them appear more guilty, then you can also imagine for a moment that if the mysterious benefactor who paid his salary had an ulterior motive to have direct access to the McCann camp, to steer the direction of their PR team unhelpfully, then it is also arguable that the hasty procurement of CM pre-empted the more considered procurement of someone recommended and hired directly, by someone who wanted a more favourable, better considered outcome. Someone wanted the media to be steered in a fairly common direction, and yet the evidence is that the media is not actually all co-operating, and never really has been, but has been operating under the constraints of gagging orders and superinjunctions.

Thinking outside the box for a minute, CM has actually fulfilled a vital, tangible role for one group of people specifically... When the Mc's, who were clearly despised by several media outlets at the very least, and are clearly doubted by many more, began issuing superinjunctions, the natural instinct of a newspaper, especially a tabloid, should have been to shut them down - that is to ensure that their 'cause' received as little publicity as possible. After all, even the government cannot compel newspapers to print stories designed to promote and support the very people who shut them down for printing any of the lucrative gossip that swirls around. It has not been uncommon for media outlets to shun the awkward, primadonna media whores in this way, or for paps to turn their backs on the attention-seekers who stomp their feet about press intrusion, sending the message 'don't bite the hand that feeds you... if we didn't take your picture and publish your quirky itinerary and splash your gossip on our pages you'd be nothing.'

So what did CM do?

In the midst of superinjunctions he clearly organised a veritable orgy of spurious information that he gave the media the go-ahead to publish. He kept them in business when it came to the McCann's. If it wasn't for the BS that he conjured up, they'd have had nothing to print about the Mc Case to keep it in the public gaze, because sure as hell the only things the Mc's have been doing for seven years is attending tea parties, searching five star hotels and doing sponsored runs.

We all assume that the agenda that initially set CM in motion as a McSeniorStaffer was a benevolent one.

It may have been ambivalent, it may have been antagonistic, but it was certainly a possibility that it was all about spin and counter spin, the control of information, the acquisition of the scoops before anyone else knew.

Maybe.

Again, more plausible than any fantasist who says 'CM is M'.
I wasn't aware of any superinjunctions. Could you remind me of what they were?
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Post by CynicAl 11.06.14 16:20

AndyB wrote:
CynicAl wrote:This is not a cover-up. Its a clusterf##k. At most some important people waded into this less than intelligently, ended up looking dumb, and compartmentalised their own involvement to mitigate or minimise their misjudgement, and contributed to the collective collossal cock up that they wish would go away. To make something go away you do not make a bigger monster of it and then parade it on daytime TV and then stick it in an MTV music video before handing it over to ConspiracyTV to make a documentary out of it. To make something go away you make it go away, and resist the urge to leave memorials.
You seem to have the mistaken idea that I believe that the review was opened as part of the cover-up. I don't believe that it was. However, I do believe, as you also appear to believe, that there was other stuff going on in PdL in 2007 that caused the initial interference by the British state. From there it isn't much to believe that the interference could be continuing and that the current investigation is just a sham to protect whoever or whatever caused the interference in the first place.

The thing that puzzles me about you is that you are obviously intelligent and claim to be aware of the systemic corruption and master plots to cover up the truth that inform my view point yet you seem to regard it as an impossibility that there is a cover-up going on here. Why?

Let me just recap...

"Initial interference" in PDL.

What was interfered with?

Did SY suggest that PJ should look at the Mc's as murder suspects?

Did SY arrange for consultants to attend PDL to work with PJ on the theory that the parents were prime suspects?

Did SY arrange for the dogs and Martin Grime to attend PDL?

Did any British police, intelligence or diplomatic sources suggest looking at characters native to PDL as possible enablers, accessories or associates?

Did the British authorities suggest the need to surveille the McCann's?

Did British diplomatic sources on attendance at the scene advise their supervisors that the McCann's behavioural and testimonial inconsistencies were indicative of guilt or involvement and warn diplomatic services to be cautious in continuing to extend services and assistance?

Did an apparent 'handover' take place from British diplomatic assistance to the natural course of a PJ investigation?

So what was the 'interference' then? Where was the extraordinary help to the McCann's. It is my understanding that they were entitled to lawyer up when made arguidos (or before) and that they did so independently by private retention, not by state provision. Correct me if I am wrong. It is also my understanding that it was their right, however vexatious, to decline questioning and to flee Portugal at the first opportunity. Again, it is my understanding that the state neither intervened to facilitate this, nor had grounds to prevent it. Rumours abound about the exact nature of the escort on the McCann's return. Some view this as a tacit and public approval of them. I don't. I take it, if true, as a necessary precaution for the transportation of four people who have become the focus of a lot of negative publicity, two of which are infants. I also would not be surprised if any escorts were advised to observe the McCann's closely.

IF you'd have said there is a 'conspiracy' to cover anything up at all which would convince me, I would argue that it actually didn't come until nearly a year later. And it did not intend to cover up the McCann's actions, or even to make the Maddie Case go away permanently, but rather to delay the inevitable. It is extremely apparent that someone in government does not want two sniffer dogs and Martin Grime to be credited with having made a major find at HDLG. The only aspect of the PJ case that has been completely formally discredited by British authorities is the sniffer dog search, and I have never believed that those dogs and Grime's work was discredited to protect the smugly gruesome twosome. If a cover-up (likely, effective and evident from the outset, much like Savile) exists pertaining to HDLG, it was the dogs who became inconvenient. Perhaps they had to be discredited which meant that the PJ and SY were compelled not to proceed on the basis of the current dog evidence. I can believe that the MBM investigation was back-burnered until equally strong, or replacement evidence was found and that may have been anticipated as being in the form of witnesses, new dog searches examining new locations but not the old ones, but nothing short of the guarantee that the evidence which re-activated the investigation would be titanium.

I could also speculate that inherently the PJ, having gotten sick of the ridicule, and perhaps with an agenda to liberate their former colleague of his scandalised reputation, want to run with the dogs as key evidence, and that SY have actually been activated by diplomatic agreement with PJ as an 'exhaustive' final attempt to find, by any and all means, incriminating evidence which either suffices, or forces a confession or golden tip-off, so that the dog evidence becomes unnecessary.

I do not now, nor have I ever mooted that 'conspiracies' do not exist, or that governments are honest and trustworthy. I don't mind finding and uncovering a conspiracy. It won't shatter my preconceptions of the world. It will actually fulfil them. But I won't twist or invent evidence to make the preposterous fit into a framework at the expense of facts, reason and plausibility.

I maintain my view that there is nothing in evidence in the MBM case (no persons present in PDL, no protected special-status citizens, no globally powerful freemasonic brotherhood which got rattled) which would call for a 'government conspiracy', or which would warrant one, and no evidence that one took place. If it did, it yielded no discernible benefit, because it changed virtually nothing.

Even if the dog evidence testimony was interfered with by way of discreditation in order to cover-up HDLG (which was clearly a foundational, institutional, clear, apparent and effective cover-up), as I understand it the dog evidence was insufficient to run with the case at the time in Portugal, so the only thing that was actually lost was the public perception of what constituted safe evidence of guilt.
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