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The Blue Sports Bag

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by fossey on 07.06.14 11:00

WHY would GM bring the bag back to the apartment AFTER he disposed of his eldest in it?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by End on 07.06.14 11:03

@fossey wrote:WHY would GM bring the bag back to the apartment AFTER he disposed of his eldest in it?
From pictures earlier we can see he couldn't part with a filthy pair of disposable gloves!

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by BlueBag on 07.06.14 11:09

Maybe it wasn't Gerry's bag.
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by canada12 on 07.06.14 11:24

@BlueBag wrote:Maybe it wasn't Gerry's bag.

Good point.
Perhaps Gerry "borrows" a bag. Uses it for whatever purpose. Brings it back. Puts it in cupboard as he plans on returning it to its owner. Bag is photographed. Gerry returns bag to owner at a later time / date.
?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by tigger on 07.06.14 12:27

Logic has flown out of the window here imo.

In that case why on earth say it's stolen? Then say it didn't exist? The typical childish excuses we're used to from the McCanns, the rotting meat, the pyjamas, the toothbrushes, cuddlecat in the mortuary and so on. It's just one more stupid excuse to ignore.

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by MarleneP on 07.06.14 12:40

If GA is right and Madeleine  died at 3.5. in the apartment

If Pat Brown is right and Smithman = Gerry

could it have happened this way:

T4 or T7 are informed: M is dead. Nobody wants a police investigation, thea fake a kidnapping. 

There is a coming and going, Gerry decides to bring the corpse away = Smithman 

Kate is surprised that she's already gone and calls: They've taken her ... 

Smithman is surprised by the Smith family. He dumped the corpse, someone has previously prepared a place. Later (next day?), the body was taken away with the blue sports bag. Since then is missing a cloth and the bag. 

Some mystery remains: Why the child died? Why did the death remain a secret?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by Latetothecase on 07.06.14 12:44

@BlueBag wrote:Maybe it wasn't Gerry's bag.

If there was another guest in 5a, who had to make a hasty exit, they might not hang around to pack bags, meds, toiletries etc.

Did Gerry have a secret room mate, and Kate doss in with the kids?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by fossey on 07.06.14 12:45

I find it difficult to believe the theory, as some have purported, that GM would use said bag to conceal then dispose of Madeleine's body, AND THEN bring the bag back to the apartment.

They have clearly gone to a lot of trouble and effort CLEANING apartment 5a to 'whoosh' any incriminating evidence and traces of Madeleine's DNA etc.

So bringing that bag back just does not make sense if it was in fact used for concealment and disposal.

Unless of course he realised his stupidity AFTER the police had been and needed to get rid a.s.a.p.

If that was the case, then i should imagine a blue sports bag would be very close to the proximity of apartment 5a.

Somewhere in the 'Snail' would be a good place to hide it.

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by BlueBag on 07.06.14 14:09

@fossey wrote:I find it difficult to believe the theory, as some have purported, that GM would use said bag to conceal then dispose of Madeleine's body, AND THEN bring the bag back to the apartment.

Well yes.. but there if there was a simple explanation for the missing bag we would have heard it.

"Stolen"?

Try asking OFM what happened to the bag.

The bag plus the dog does it for me.
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by ultimaThule on 07.06.14 14:41

As this topic is devoted to 'the blue bag', I'm reproducing a post I made elsewhere on the forum by way of a 'for what it's worth':

"Eddie's alert to cadaverine behind the sofa and by the wardrobe indicates that a dead body was at some time present in those locations, but it cannot be regarded as indication that death occurred in the apartment.  

If death occurred elsewhere, the blue bag may have been used to collect the body and transport it to 5A where it was first hidden behind the sofa and then placed in the bedroom, either by the wardrobe or in it, before its onward journey to another temporary hiding place prior to being transported in the Scenic to its final destination."

Having re-read the above, it occurs to me to add that the bag may have been first placed in the bedroom before being hidden behind the sofa.

It isn't that i'm convinced that the blue bag was used to bring the body to 5A but I find it odd that cadaverine was found in these two locations and not, for example, on the sofa or a bed where one would expect a body to be laid out.  

Having read theories which posit an accident behind the sofa leading to attempted resuscitation which failed or Madeleine having met with a fatal accident resulting in subsequent discovery of her body at some unspecified time after death ,it seems to me that, unless an immediate decision was made to conceal the body and it was bundled into the blue bag, the child would be laid out somewhere in the apartment while decisions were made and that her corpse would be taken to the bathroom in order to cleanse it of any visible blood and/or fluids which are evacuated at time of death or shortly thereafter.  

If Madeleine was being cared for by another party, or parties, elsewhere during the holiday, it would explain the absence of her DNA in 5A and on those clothes which were purported to have been hers but which appeared to be a perfect fit for the much younger Amelie albeit that, at 90cms tall, Madeleine was worryingly small for her age.
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by ultimaThule on 07.06.14 14:59

@fossey wrote:I find it difficult to believe the theory, as some have purported, that GM would use said bag to conceal then dispose of Madeleine's body, AND THEN bring the bag back to the apartment.

They have clearly gone to a lot of trouble and effort CLEANING apartment 5a to 'whoosh' any incriminating evidence and traces of Madeleine's DNA etc.

So bringing that bag back just does not make sense if it was in fact used for concealment and disposal.

Unless of course he realised his stupidity AFTER the police had been and needed to get rid a.s.a.p.


If that was the case, then i should imagine a blue sports bag would be very close to the proximity of apartment 5a.

Somewhere in the 'Snail' would be a good place to hide it.

It seems to me that everything the McCanns have said and done since the evening of 3 May 2007 is attributable to Gerry's stupidity, fossey, because, much as he likes to think of himself as possessing an intellect which is far superior to that of others, his powers of reason are pedestrian at best.

The best place to 'hide' an item such as the blue bag is to cut it into small pieces, burn it on a barbecue or similar, and either distrbute the ashes in various locations for the wind to disperse them or throw them into the sea, but I suspect that the wee one used the bag as carry on baggage on the occasion of his first return to the UK which, imo, is likely to have occurred prior to the date of 20 May given in Exhibit KH1.
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by BlueBag on 07.06.14 15:02

I agree if a child died in the apartment if would likely have been laid out somewhere (the bed) whilst they thought what to do. 

The bag in the wardrobe may have been put there with the body in it, or it may have been put there afterwards after the body was gone.

Of course, the death could have happened elsewhere too.

Did David Payne - the last non-family member to supposedly see her alive - say she looked like an angel?
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by aiyoyo on 07.06.14 15:28

Lo and behold, Blue Bag has surfaced on this forum.

Wonder when Pink Blanket is following suit.....?
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by PeterMac on 07.06.14 18:25

Remember the twins.
A body has to be hidden from them ASAP, hence - possibly - in the bag in the wardrobe
Then it can be moved - in the bag - on 3/5/7 and hidden or disposed of.
Bag put back on the shelf, - photographed - and moved to new villa.
Bag placed in back of hire car for disposal, as it is beginning to smell, even to a human nose

Ludicrous, obviously.

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by MaybeMaybenot on 07.06.14 18:33

@PeterMac wrote:Remember the twins.
A body has to be hidden from them ASAP, hence - possibly - in the bag in the wardrobe
Then it can be moved - in the bag - on 3/5/7 and hidden or disposed of.
Bag put back on the shelf, - photographed - and moved to new villa.
Bag placed in back of hire car for disposal, as it is beginning to smell, even to a human nose

Ludicrous, obviously.

The same twins that slept through the whole encounter of what was going on around them when the Police arrived. Even slept through their physical movements from the crime scene...
So IMO, a body need not be moved so soon.
I do agree the bag was moved to another room, not villa though. It stayed and played on that complex.

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by canada12 on 07.06.14 19:01

@PeterMac wrote:Remember the twins.
A body has to be hidden from them ASAP, hence - possibly - in the bag in the wardrobe
Then it can be moved - in the bag - on 3/5/7 and hidden or disposed of.
Bag put back on the shelf, - photographed - and moved to new villa.
Bag placed in back of hire car for disposal, as it is beginning to smell, even to a human nose

Ludicrous, obviously.

Agree with you PM, that it's a viable scenario.

Just wondering at what point and why it would begin to smell though. I realize bodies begin to decompose immediately following death, but how long would a dead body have to be in a bag in order for it to begin to smell well after the fact, and well after the body has been removed? Unless there is a leakage of bodily fluids immediately following death while the body is in the bag, and that leakage was never cleaned up. Would that make sense?

So following your scenario, can we conclude:
1. Madeleine's body is placed in bag temporarily and placed in cupboard to sheild from twins' eyes
2. Body in bag has leakage (blood, body fluids)
3. Body and bag are removed, and body is located elsewhere on or before 3/5/7
4. Bag is returned to cupboard
5. Bag is photographed in cupboard but isn't checked by police as it doesn't smell or look suspicious
6. Bag is moved to villa along with the McCann family
7. Because of leakage bag is now beginning to smell quite strongly
8. Bag is disposed of

Makes sense?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by AndyB on 07.06.14 19:06

@canada12 wrote:[So following your scenario, can we conclude:
1. Madeleine's body is placed in bag temporarily and placed in cupboard to sheild from twins' eyes
2. Body in bag has leakage (blood, body fluids)
3. Body and bag are removed, and body is located elsewhere on or before 3/5/7
4. Bag is returned to cupboard
5. Bag is photographed in cupboard but isn't checked by police as it doesn't smell or look suspicious
6. Bag is moved to villa along with the McCann family
7. Because of leakage bag is now beginning to smell quite strongly
8. Bag is disposed of

Makes sense?
Not really, at least not to my mind. Why step 4? Why not leave the bag with the body?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by canada12 on 07.06.14 19:13

@AndyB wrote:
@canada12 wrote:[So following your scenario, can we conclude:
1. Madeleine's body is placed in bag temporarily and placed in cupboard to sheild from twins' eyes
2. Body in bag has leakage (blood, body fluids)
3. Body and bag are removed, and body is located elsewhere on or before 3/5/7
4. Bag is returned to cupboard
5. Bag is photographed in cupboard but isn't checked by police as it doesn't smell or look suspicious
6. Bag is moved to villa along with the McCann family
7. Because of leakage bag is now beginning to smell quite strongly
8. Bag is disposed of

Makes sense?
Not really, at least not to my mind. Why step 4? Why not leave the bag with the body?

OK I'll amend that.
1. Madeleine's body is placed in bag temporarily and placed in cupboard to sheild from twins' eyes
2. Body and bag are removed, and body is located elsewhere on or before 3/5/7
3. Bag is returned to cupboard to be used again in the future to move the body again
4. Bag is photographed in cupboard but isn't checked by police as it doesn't smell or look suspicious
5. Bag is moved to villa along with the McCann family
6. Bag is used again to move the body, several times, possibly also while body is frozen and thaws out and leaks
7. Because of leakage bag is now beginning to smell quite strongly
8. Bag is disposed of

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by BlueBag on 07.06.14 19:21

The bag may have been put in the wardrobe later without the body.

The bag with the body may have been behind the sofa (also out of sight).
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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by Naz_Nomad on 07.06.14 19:53

I posted a similar comment earlier, but it looks like it "disappeared".  Spooky!

I've heard the "Blue Bag" dismissed as "nothing but a blurry photo and internet myth".

Surely the PJ would have written an inventory of what was in the room, so somewhere there will be an a entry on a list something like :- "Large sports bag, blue, no logo, on shelf in cupboard"

Also CCTV at the airports would see if any of the McCann party had this bag.  Luggage manifest on airline, CCTV in plane.  Surely these would have been checked years ago, or is someone from the PJ or SY going to read this, slap their forehead and say "DOH!!.  Airport CCTV.  Plane CCTV.  Written inventory!! DOH!!".   wow 

Well, if you did miss it, I hope this helped.  

I'm sure they did that though.  I'd hope so.

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by cassius on 07.06.14 19:57

@AndyB wrote:
@canada12 wrote:[So following your scenario, can we conclude:
1. Madeleine's body is placed in bag temporarily and placed in cupboard to sheild from twins' eyes
2. Body in bag has leakage (blood, body fluids)
3. Body and bag are removed, and body is located elsewhere on or before 3/5/7
4. Bag is returned to cupboard
5. Bag is photographed in cupboard but isn't checked by police as it doesn't smell or look suspicious
6. Bag is moved to villa along with the McCann family
7. Because of leakage bag is now beginning to smell quite strongly
8. Bag is disposed of

Makes sense?
Not really, at least not to my mind. Why step 4? Why not leave the bag with the body?
1.body in bag and placed in cupboard.
2.body and bag  removed and located nearby to allow cleaning of 5a.
3.body is removed by GM and disposed of but he is seen by Irish family
4.bag is returned to cupboard.
5.bag photographed in cupboard.
6.bag removed to villa along with family.
7.because cadaver dogs are coming bag is used to move body in hire car.
8.body and bag moved to final resting place.

Which still begs the question why would GM carry the dead child in his arms rather than in the bag?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by cassius on 07.06.14 20:20

@PeterMac wrote:Remember the twins.
A body has to be hidden from them ASAP, hence - possibly - in the bag in the wardrobe
Then it can be moved - in the bag - on 3/5/7 and hidden or disposed of.
Bag put back on the shelf, - photographed - and moved to new villa.
Bag placed in back of hire car for disposal, as it is beginning to smell, even to a human nose

Ludicrous, obviously.
So the dogs could have picked up the cadaver scent from the bag in the hire car?

The body did not need to have been in the hire car for a cadaver scent to have been left?

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by missmar1 on 07.06.14 20:49

@PeterMac wrote:
@tiny wrote:Why can't Kate and Gerry simply tell everyone what happened to the bag and that would be an end to the debate?
 If the mccanns did this then they would be truly f*****
Because, as with so may other issues, they and their spokesman have already committed themselves to No Bag.
To change their minds now would cause the sky to fall in on them.


Hi PeterMac,

As you say,  " as with so many issues"   I am flabbergasted that AR could come out and say in public that neither the Mccann's or their holiday friends  are suspects in this case considering this entire group knew the Mccann children were left alone.( Or so we are told)  They were also known to have access to Madeleine on the night she disappeared ..... even doing some of the checks ?   there are so many discrepancies/ oddities in the videos, interviews, Kate Mccann's book and evidence circulating in the public domain for all to see ? 

I cannot for the life of me understand how SY or any police force for that matter, can disregard the discrepancies in this case - neither can I understand how AR or anyone else with half a brain, can accept, without evidence, just the word of the group of people involved in Madeleine's and the twins childcare arrangements ( checking) that night. 

  I have always been under the impression the police understand that some folk tell lies when a crime has been committed. The Mccann's and/ or friends could be telling lies - so why, without any evidence to support their abduction claims, has AR announced the Mccann's and friends are not suspects  ?    Imagine if all crimes committed were treated in this way ?   Imagine AR saying  "Oh, it's ok,  no evidence is needed to support your story ...we'll take your word for it "         

I am getting very disillusioned with the way this case seems to be heading - its all being played out in front of the world's media ...and the reports reaching the british tv screens are so onesided and imo, dedicated to making sure the public keep thinking about stranger abduction ( I know they dont use that word) but thats the impression they want to give to the general public imo,

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by HelenMeg on 07.06.14 21:06

@tigger wrote:And here is the part from the Payne rog:

From the rogatory interview with David Payne re the missing tennis bag.

"What about a kit bag? Would they have a kit bag with them?”
Reply "Err he certainly didn’t have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn’t have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when I played…”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn’t a big tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything…”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "It would have been something that had their water in.”
1485 "So as opposed to a bag it’d be something like a rucksack, if at all?”
Reply "If, if at all, yeah.” unquote

OK- all agreed then:  point 6 on the agenda: when asked answer 'There was nothing of that size...etc'
Minutes of the Rothley meeting. November 2007.  - purely fictional... winkwink 
David gives the game away. He couldn't have made it more obvious if he'd tried.

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Re: The Blue Sports Bag

Post by missmar1 on 07.06.14 21:09

@HelenMeg wrote:
@tigger wrote:And here is the part from the Payne rog:

From the rogatory interview with David Payne re the missing tennis bag.

"What about a kit bag? Would they have a kit bag with them?”
Reply "Err he certainly didn’t have a great big tennis bag or a, you know, err I mean I used to be a squash, a semi-professional squash player and you know they certainly didn’t have anything that I would call a kit bag from days when I played…”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "You know, a lot of sport, err if they had a rucksack with some water in that would be, you know, about as big as it got, you know a small rucksack. But it certainly wasn’t a big tennis, you know, things that you could put a tennis racquet in.”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that, it would have been just purely, if they had anything…”
1485 "Yeah.”
Reply "It would have been something that had their water in.”
1485 "So as opposed to a bag it’d be something like a rucksack, if at all?”
Reply "If, if at all, yeah.” unquote

OK- all agreed then:  point 6 on the agenda: when asked answer 'There was nothing of that size...etc'
Minutes of the Rothley meeting. November 2007.  - purely fictional... winkwink 
David gives the game away. He couldn't have made it more obvious if he'd tried.
Agree with you...... " HIDE"   what a clanger !

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