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Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by nobodythereeither on 28.05.14 18:50

@bobbin wrote:
@AndyB wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
I agree with your post AndyB and think something very interesting is emerging at higher levels in general.
Damn! I thought I was disagreeing with you and was looking forward to an interesting discussion :-)

There's nothing I can take issue with in the rest of your post as it pretty much represents my current thinking. I think the only subtle difference between us
is that I suspect involvement in some way at the highest levels as I believe it is only this that would evoke the response that we see. Any evidence for this involvement will now have been extinguished leaving the McCanns in exactly the same position as they would be if your theory is correct, which is good for nether them nor those of us that would like to know the truth of what happened

I think the McC discussion, which had become rather stultified over the past few months, is able to move on somewhat more now, due to Theresa May standing up and telling the 'corrupt' police reps to get their act sorted.

All the time the corrupt have been able to clean their net pages out, to clear their names of 'connections', like the now late collector of art works, and ex politicians having court records disappeared, there is a growing change in the air.

The EU results have just had a swingeing effect on the old established orders. The public is beginning to say, go put it, we've had enough.

One of the greatest errors, to my mind, was Kate McCann accusing Theresa May of 'fluffy words'. I don't think anyone at the Police Federation conference last week would accuse Theresa May of 'fluffy words'.

Perhaps even that far back Mrs. May was not delivering to Kate McCann the assurances that Kate McCann sought, and therefore dismissed what the good lady was saying. Perhaps Mrs. May has been watching the development of the McC saga and was already assessing the approach she would later take towards rooting corruption out of the police force and preventing future cover ups.

I hope she remains constant and does not buckle to pressure from those who may have a different agenda from her, and who nevertheless are very close working colleagues, one way or another.

So my point to your answer is that I agree, that the screeching of brakes, from media, ambassadors, Home Office, designated spokespersons, damage limitation guys etc. possibly also MI5/MI6 and others, all arriving in quiet PdL at the same time, indicates more than clearly, that a huge 'panic and fear' had emerged from the McC c**k up and cry of P abduction.

Yes, these main players have retreated, almost certainly with some sense of re-assurance that all is 'well'.

However, the mood is changing. The McCs are no longer flavour of the month. The police have been told, in no uncertain terms.

What is more important than all of this though is the Portuguese investigation continues, and shock of all shocks, they publish their findings.
It's the way they do it.

So although in spite of the fact that Theresa May has now done what the public have been craving for as long as Hillsborough, speaking out to tackle corruption where the public should least expect it, and having been 'challenged' by an arrogant insult from Kate McCann, the background mood for Andy Redwood is more encouragingly apparent in terms of a review, not having just become an investigation, but a homicide search for a dead child.

Something very big and very serious was obviously attached to Mark Warner's Ocean Club.

The question of Margaret Hodge's nephew being there, the 'sole possessor?' of photos of Madeleine on 3rd May, the letter he wrote to Tony stating that he was there and the account given by the McCs is the correct account, yet, this case is still being investigated, new dogs being brought in, the former dogs having signalled blood which had been deliberately sabotaged by bleach to prevent forensic discovery, poses questions than cannot just be dismissed.

The McCs may have limited knowledge of what deeper interconnections may have been going on, and may themselves have only been an independent group of 'interested practitioners', but the reaction/over-reaction of the political might that landed at their feet when they attempted the P word, would signify to K and G that they would be protected in the overall wrapper protecting those whose interests had elicited the over-reaction in the first place.

Yet we have Justine McGuiness leaving material behind with marks that have reportedly, by GA? been deemed too cryptic to be meaningful.

Nevertheless, that need not be the final decision made on these papers.

Presumably the PJ have a copy, if not the originals, and will be attending to them if they deem fit, that amongst many of the other documents that they still possess.

Very very interesting, Bobbin, thanks.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 28.05.14 19:15

@ bobbin today at 1:31 pm

I agree with the broad outline of your piece but not as regards where the McCann's and the rest of the Tapas lot figure in the scene. For a start OG wouldn't be fannying about playing cops and robbers if the core of their operation is relative to the sexual abuse of a minor, IMO such an investigation would be swept under the umbrella of an existing operation for that purpose alone. I have pondered the idea that the group, or at least some of them, are being investigated by British authorities for that reason but if that be the case these widespread cases can take years to conclude (if ever) so again, I doubt if SY would be playing around with JCB's and issuing Europe's most wanted posters. The whole thing would run along quietly until the investigators be in a position to move in.

Your rather elaborate theory about the middle wo/man being isolated from the superior element and the inferior element IMO has no effective purpose. The Tapas mob are a group of professionals, not Asda shelf stackers (no disrespect to the job), if they are part of the prevalent seedy mass child abuse atrocity that eats away in the dungeons of the U.K then I don't think they would be singled out as an isolated case, I think they would be grouped together with all the other scum just waiting to be exposed (excuse the pun). In other words, as with a drug squad, they use the small fry to catch the big fish.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Garrincha on 28.05.14 19:50

Bobbin, you're on a roll - please keep it up!

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 28.05.14 21:37

I agree, superb posting bobbin even if I don't agree 100% on every detail.  Sorry I was so busy rabbiting earlier I forgot to say.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by sharonl on 28.05.14 22:17

@Angelique wrote:I don't and cannot accept Mrs. Fenn's statement

At last, I thought that I was only person on the planet to doubt Mrs Fenn - My reasons, though are slightly different.

Assuming that Madeleine died earlier in the week (which I believe that she did) and in order to add credibility to the abduction scenario, the McCanns would have needed to convince us that they were not with her when she disappeared and that she was alive during the week.  In order to do this, they would need some sort of back up - a few plants.

1.  Robert Murat flew into PDL on May 1st
2.  Carole Tramner (Mrs Fenns' neice) claims to have flown in on April 28th, in the search of property...

Mrs Fenn, even though her statement, on the face of it, attacks the McCanns for leaving the children alone, it also does them a great favour.  The McCanns try to discredit Mrs Fenn & her statement, but this is just to convince us that there is no friendship between them.

Mrs Fenn claimed that she heard a child crying for over 75 minutes.  She emphasises that the child she heard was a young child of 3-4 and not a baby of 2 or under.  You would think that she is completely independent and is in effect having a pop at the McCanns, but if we look deeper into this:

1.  In effect, what Mrs Fenn is really doing here is backing up the theory that Madeleine was alive at that point
2.  She emphasises that it is not the twins, it is an older child
3.  She backs up the child home alone theory
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
5.  Mrs Fenn was a friend of the Murat Family and a fellow member of the local housing authority with Jenny Murat.
6.  Mrs Fenn, an elderly woman in her eighties, in a top floor apartment which (according to Carol Tramner) was difficult to get to, claims that she single handedly saw off a burglar who she caught by the ankles as he dived out of her apartment through an open window - here she backs up the McCanns theory that there were intruders in the area.  The PJ say that there were no reported burglaries,  and Mrs Fenn had not reported this one.
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
8.  Later, Mrs Fenn denied all knowledge of this and told the press, "its rubbish, all rubbish, I have said nothing".

On to Mrs Fenn's neice - Carole Tranmer who claimed to be staying 2 hours away and was supposedly on holiday with her husband, in search of property, although they didn't visit one single estate agent whilst they were there.

1.  Claimed that she made 2 visits to her aunt, one on May 3rd
2.  Offered evidence of her presence in PDL that day - a photograph of herself on Mrs Fenns' balcony
3.  Claimed that she looked over the balcony and say a man acting suspiciously - trying a gate to see if it closed quietly
4.  Gave a description of this man that was a perfect match to the one on the McCanns website & provided a DIY e-fit
5.  She conveniently flew home before hearing of Madeleines' "abduction" - she contacted her local police station at some point and they referred her to Leicestershire Police station ( long before they were involved, I believe)
6.The press reported that Carol was staying with her aunt when the burglar struck - this was a lie  

For me, reading the Fenn thread on the McCann files made me even more sceptical of the Fenn story
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by nobodythereeither on 28.05.14 22:46

Sharoni, that's very interesting, I never knew all that.

This case never ceases to amaze me. What a tangled web the police are having to unravel. No wonder it's all taking so long ....

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by bobbin on 28.05.14 22:55

@sharonl wrote:
@Angelique wrote:I don't and cannot accept Mrs. Fenn's statement

At last, I thought that I was only person on the planet to doubt Mrs Fenn - My reasons, though are slightly different.

Assuming that Madeleine died earlier in the week (which I believe that she did) and in order to add credibility to the abduction scenario, the McCanns would have needed to convince us that they were not with her when she disappeared and that she was alive during the week.  In order to do this, they would need some sort of back up - a few plants.

1.  Robert Murat flew into PDL on May 1st
2.  Carole Tramner (Mrs Fenns' neice) claims to have flown in on April 28th, in the search of property...

Mrs Fenn, even though her statement, on the face of it, attacks the McCanns for leaving the children alone, it also does them a great favour.  The McCanns try to discredit Mrs Fenn & her statement, but this is just to convince us that there is no friendship between them.

Mrs Fenn claimed that she heard a child crying for over 75 minutes.  She emphasises that the child she heard was a young child of 3-4 and not a baby of 2 or under.  You would think that she is completely independent and is in effect having a pop at the McCanns, but if we look deeper into this:

1.  In effect, what Mrs Fenn is really doing here is backing up the theory that Madeleine was alive at that point
2.  She emphasises that it is not the twins, it is an older child
3.  She backs up the child home alone theory
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
5.  Mrs Fenn was a friend of the Murat Family and a fellow member of the local housing authority with Jenny Murat.
6.  Mrs Fenn, an elderly woman in her eighties, in a top floor apartment which (according to Carol Tramner) was difficult to get to, claims that she single handedly saw off a burglar who she caught by the ankles as he dived out of her apartment through an open window - here she backs up the McCanns theory that there were intruders in the area.  The PJ say that there were no reported burglaries,  and Mrs Fenn had not reported this one.
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
8.  Later, Mrs Fenn denied all knowledge of this and told the press, "its rubbish, all rubbish, I have said nothing".

On to Mrs Fenn's neice - Carole Tranmer who claimed to be staying 2 hours away and was supposedly on holiday with her husband, in search of property, although they didn't visit one single estate agent whilst they were there.

1.  Claimed that she made 2 visits to her aunt, one on May 3rd
2.  Offered evidence of her presence in PDL that day - a photograph of herself on Mrs Fenns' balcony
3.  Claimed that she looked over the balcony and say a man acting suspiciously - trying a gate to see if it closed quietly
4.  Gave a description of this man that was a perfect match to the one on the McCanns website & provided a DIY e-fit
5.  She conveniently flew home before hearing of Madeleines' "abduction" - she contacted her local police station at some point and they referred her to Leicestershire Police station ( long before they were involved, I believe)
6.The press reported that Carol was staying with her aunt when the burglar struck - this was a lie  

For me, reading the Fenn thread on the McCann files made me even more sceptical of the Fenn story
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html

Wow sharonl... that's an eye opener.
Also wasn't Carol Tranmer visited by some sort of policeman at some Reading 'vague' place to do an efit which the investigating police seemed not to know about.
Hmmm.
Also this evening, following on from the reminding that in former days it had been discussed that a recording loop had been possibly used to make it seem as though a child were present, I started thinking.

I have just done over an hour of 'fox watching'. Staring into the dark to see which foxes pass by my chicken house, when, and what they do. I've recently lost 3 hens.
I realised when the church bells struck ten that I was half way through my watch and wondered how a child could cry for that long, plus fifteen minutes longer than my one hour, and not be exhausted, needing a glass of water and not just giving up and falling asleep.

I had said in an earlier post, that I thought a 'recording' would be risky, for fear of police being called, breaking in and discovering a hoax but had nevertheless begun to 're-think' the 'recording', mainly because, in the stark silence of the night, why weren't the other children disturbed....Jane's daughter and baby next door, Payne's daughter and baby above, Oldfield's baby, nearby in the quiet night, Sean and Amelie in the same room.

How did Mrs. Fenn only hear one child. Were the others heavily drugged ? I cannot believe that Mrs. Fenn would be able to hear a child wailing, getting louder, below her, for longer than I have been leaning, cramped, out of a darkened window, yet the other children and any sick /on duty parents nearby, horizontally and vertically, were not hearing it and being disturbed.
If Mrs. Fenn did call Murat and not her friend Edna, then the whole question is blown open.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 28.05.14 23:24

Personal anecdote time.

When I moved in with my soon to be wife and much later to be ex-wife I became temporary 'dad' to a little five year old girl.  Up until that time she had been used to being with her Mum pretty much all the time, and she was a nightmare to get to sleep.  For three to four hours every night she would get up and come down the stairs, only to be put back in bed by her Mum, who would then sit with her for up to an hour while she dropped off to sleep. This would happen repeatedly throughout the evening (and night).

After a few months of this I put my foot down and convinced my partner that she needed to be a little harder with her, that her daughter was doing it to get attention, and that she had learned to expect this treatment.  So from that point on, we would put her in bed, and if she got up we would just tell her to get back in bed and go to sleep.  

For several weeks (although at the time it seemed like years) she would sit up in bed screaming and crying every night, for hours upon hours.  Until finally we broke the expectations she had been taught, and she learned to just go to sleep when put in bed.

Believe me, children can cry for a hell of a long time.  I've been there.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 9:18

@sharonl wrote: [...]
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
[...]
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
[...] l

Sharon, could you link me to a quote of that GNR officer? I've never heard this before and a search for it doesn't bring any answers so far.

As for not speaking to police until August, it's my understanding that she was expecting the police to come and question her, which seems they didn't. That she, as a close neighbour to the crime scene was not interviewed in May would indeed be strange. When in August her apartment was checked with EVRD en CSI dogs the subject was raised to British police officers. She was subsequently formally interviewed in Portimao.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by ChippyM on 29.05.14 11:36

Whilst we're on the subject of applying logic and testing null hypotheses,

  How does this apply to the Tapas lot being so insistant on supporting the Mc's from the first moment and Jane Tanners sighting?

The lot of them got together and drew up a list of their movements that night, Jane Tanner insisted she saw someone carrying a child and later said it was Robert Murat, which wasn't true.
   The innocent explanations for the Tapas standing by the McCann's would be that they were telling the truth but this is countered by the need to write down a timeline and Jane Tanner deciding she saw Robert Murat.

    If you were on holiday with a group of people you didn't know very well and an 'abduction' occurred why would you all go to their room to draw up a list of movements that night instead of doing it individually?  Applying logic here gives only a few possibilities, either they were good friends and felt some sense of loyalty and duty - which means they lied. They weren't good friends but for some reason felt that they had to co-operate and draw up a timeline, in which case they have not shared what caused this non-friendship based bond.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by russiandoll on 29.05.14 11:38

@russiandoll wrote:TD  :  what do you make of the following?


 Pamela Fenn heard the opening of patio doors.
 The child's crying stopped.
 The parents or someone else had entered 5a [ result, the child stopped crying].

 So said her statement.

 Thanks for your reply, TD . I was not trying to be cryptic, but given the way you appear to think, I was wondering if you were reading the statement by Mrs Fenn and particularly the part I have referred to, would you be using your mental highlighter pen on any of it? Because I would.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Garrincha on 29.05.14 11:49

Am I wrong to have gotten the impression that TD has left the building?

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by sharonl on 29.05.14 11:57

Châtelaine wrote:
@sharonl wrote: [...]
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
[...]
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
[...] l

Sharon, could you link me to a quote of that GNR officer? I've never heard this before and a search for it doesn't bring any answers so far.

As for not speaking to police until August, it's my understanding that she was expecting the police to come and question her, which seems they didn't. That she, as a close neighbour to the crime scene was not interviewed in May would indeed be strange. When in August her apartment was checked with EVRD en CSI dogs the subject was raised to British police officers. She was subsequently formally interviewed in Portimao.

Hi Chateleine

Here is a link to the GNR officers statement  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm

Although, it does not as I specified above, directly name Pamela Fenn as the person who allegedly called Rob Murat.  I imagine though, that if this was Pamela Fenn, it would have been Jenny Murat that she would have called, not Robert.

Quoted from statement:
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by nobodythereeither on 29.05.14 13:01

@ChippyM wrote:Whilst we're on the subject of applying logic and testing null hypotheses,

  How does this apply to the Tapas lot being so insistant on supporting the Mc's from the first moment and Jane Tanners sighting?

The lot of them got together and drew up a list of their movements that night, Jane Tanner insisted she saw someone carrying a child and later said it was Robert Murat, which wasn't true.
   The innocent explanations for the Tapas standing by the McCann's would be that they were telling the truth but this is countered by the need to write down a timeline and Jane Tanner deciding she saw Robert Murat.

    If you were on holiday with a group of people you didn't know very well and an 'abduction' occurred why would you all go to their room to draw up a list of movements that night instead of doing it individually?  Applying logic here gives only a few possibilities, either they were good friends and felt some sense of loyalty and duty - which means they lied. They weren't good friends but for some reason felt that they had to co-operate and draw up a timeline, in which case they have not shared what caused this non-friendship based bond.

Well, playing devil's advocate, or testing a null hypothesis or whatever, if a child actually HAD been abducted, I think it might make sense for everybody to get together and try to remember who had done what when in relation to seeing that child, and try to put together a timeline to identify when the windows (no pun intended) of opportunity for the supposed abductor were.

If everybody did that individually in their own rooms first, that would lose time because each account would then have to be put together with everybody else's. Easier to do it in conversation as a group.

PLEASE NOTE - I am not for a minute suggesting either that there was an abduction, or that this is why the "timeline" was drawn up in this way!!

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Post by johnknox on 29.05.14 13:11

@sharonl wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@sharonl wrote: [...]
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
[...]
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
[...] l

Sharon, could you link me to a quote of that GNR officer? I've never heard this before and a search for it doesn't bring any answers so far.

As for not speaking to police until August, it's my understanding that she was expecting the police to come and question her, which seems they didn't. That she, as a close neighbour to the crime scene was not interviewed in May would indeed be strange. When in August her apartment was checked with EVRD en CSI dogs the subject was raised to British police officers. She was subsequently formally interviewed in Portimao.

Hi Chateleine

Here is a link to the GNR officers statement  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm

Although, it does not as I specified above, directly name Pamela Fenn as the person who allegedly called Rob Murat.  I imagine though, that if this was Pamela Fenn, it would have been Jenny Murat that she would have called, not Robert.

Quoted from statement:
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Not for the first time Sharoni you have stated as fact info which is not.In the interests of justice for Maddie can you please be more accurate with your comments.Thank You.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 13:17

@johnknox wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@sharonl wrote: [...]
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
[...]
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
[...] l

Sharon, could you link me to a quote of that GNR officer? I've never heard this before and a search for it doesn't bring any answers so far.

As for not speaking to police until August, it's my understanding that she was expecting the police to come and question her, which seems they didn't. That she, as a close neighbour to the crime scene was not interviewed in May would indeed be strange. When in August her apartment was checked with EVRD en CSI dogs the subject was raised to British police officers. She was subsequently formally interviewed in Portimao.

Hi Chateleine

Here is a link to the GNR officers statement  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm

Although, it does not as I specified above, directly name Pamela Fenn as the person who allegedly called Rob Murat.  I imagine though, that if this was Pamela Fenn, it would have been Jenny Murat that she would have called, not Robert.

Quoted from statement:
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Not for the first time Sharoni you have stated as fact info which is not.In the interests of justice for Maddie can you please be more accurate with your comments.Thank You.

Not a very friendly first post. That could be phrased in a better way don't you think.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by bobbin on 29.05.14 13:48

@johnknox wrote:
@sharonl wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@sharonl wrote: [...]
4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.
[...]
7.  Mrs Fenn, despite all of this occurring in May 2007, did not speak to the police until August 2007 - why?
[...] l

Sharon, could you link me to a quote of that GNR officer? I've never heard this before and a search for it doesn't bring any answers so far.

As for not speaking to police until August, it's my understanding that she was expecting the police to come and question her, which seems they didn't. That she, as a close neighbour to the crime scene was not interviewed in May would indeed be strange. When in August her apartment was checked with EVRD en CSI dogs the subject was raised to British police officers. She was subsequently formally interviewed in Portimao.

Hi Chateleine

Here is a link to the GNR officers statement  http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PAOLO_COSTA.htm

Although, it does not as I specified above, directly name Pamela Fenn as the person who allegedly called Rob Murat.  I imagine though, that if this was Pamela Fenn, it would have been Jenny Murat that she would have called, not Robert.

Quoted from statement:
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.
Not for the first time Sharoni you have stated as fact info which is not.In the interests of justice for Maddie can you please be more accurate with your comments.Thank You.
Hello John Knox, such a harsh remark from a 'newbie' draws more attention to Mrs. Fenn's statement, and causes me to look deeper.
Obviously you have been following this whole case, and this particular forum for a considerable time, in order to have been able to make your remark.
Perhaps with your powers of observation you can answer the following questions and contribute to the further understanding of posters on this case.

Although the above GNR statement is not a direct statement of fact, there are certainly nuances there and implications which have not necessarily been discussed yet.

I do feel that there is a possibility that Mrs. Fenn's statement is not entirely understood, and it leads us to inspect certain pre-held views and to search for verification, since it is indicative of the possibility that it could have been Mrs. Fenn who could have phoned Mrs. Murat/Robert.
Q1. Why would Robert Murat phone the Lagos paper and give details that should only have been reported to the PJ and be kept secretly by the PJ until the files would be published ?
Q2. Have the PJ got the phone records for Mrs. Fenn, to establish whom she called and at what times, and days ?
Q3. Do the PJ have an additional statement from Mrs. Fenn ? There has been some confusion as to whether she had made 2 and not just the one that has been released in the PJ files.
Q4. How was Mrs. Fenn sure that it was Maddie crying. She did not see her to witness it, therefore it is supposition to accept her statement (if that be the case) that it was Maddie who was crying.
Q5. What evidence is there that a child was actually crying and that it was not a taped 'crying' loop being played to give the impression of someone present, namely Maddie, for the sake of suggestion that she was still alive at this date.
Q6. What evidence is there that the crying stopped when the 'parents came back'.
Apparently mobile phone activity shows Kate's phone to have been in or very close to 5A for some 20 minutes prior to the sound stopping.
Mrs. Fenn's report of patio doors sliding could just have well been someone (Kate, or someone with Kate's phone) leaving as entering. It could also have been anyone(s) else entering or leaving since Mrs. Fenn did not 'witness' any person(s).
Q7. Do the PJ have phone records for the friend Edna, supposedly called by Mrs. Fenn, for around 11.00 p.m. to show she received a call from Mrs. Fenn.
Q8. Did Edna give a statement to the police to say that she had had a call and been informed of a child crying and did she make the comment that she was not surprised.
Q9. When was the night that staff apparently had to search and find the McCs at ?Chaplins? to tell them their child(ren) were crying
Q10. Who reported this 'staff coming for the McCs' event. Was it in any statements or was it some report not attached to an official statement.

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Post by johnknox on 29.05.14 14:00

If we are now doubting the evidence of Mrs. Fenn then the rabbits have truly taken over the cabbage patch.

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 14:06

"That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them."

This is an early May 2007 statement.
IMO, taking into account that Mrs. Fenn had been living for a good couple of years in PdL, that she knew Mrs. Murat quite well [and IMO Robert Murat must have been familiar with her too], I find the GNR statement a bit strange. E.g. Mrs. Fenn to be named as "some foreign woman" ... And that she already had been interviewed by the police ... Whereas, Mrs Fenn herself reportedly was rather surprised, she had not been until August. Like others, I do have questions marks, but not the ones that challenge her integrity.

All IMO, of course, and no offense meant.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by aquila on 29.05.14 14:16

I'm supposed to be on 'eyesight rest' ....that's keeping away from screens. I'm trying...I'm really trying.

I'd like to ask TozerDerry a question and in order to do that I need to quote a part of his initial post.

"I work in practical moral philosophy with schools, hospitals and companies, trying to help people understand what can and should be done in various circumstances and often meet closed minds and fixed opinions in opposing groups- Cliical vs Admin, Teachers vs Governors, Directors vs stakeholders and so on. Asking people to try to critique their own assumptions often results in a fuller understanding of the problem before the group. This has been part of the Peace Process in various bodies in the North of Ireland- resuing people from entrenched position that have resulted in serious injury and death."

I'd like to know what 'practical moral philosophy' is?

does it work?

how much do you bill schools, hospitals and companies for this 'vital service'?

what drew you to this forum to give the benefit of your wisdom (for free)?

and why do you not answer direct questions from posters? (or are posters on this forum all of a 'closed mind')?

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 14:20

johnknox wrote:

If we are now doubting the evidence of Mrs. Fenn then the rabbits have truly taken over the cabbage patch.

Firstly who is this we, and secondly opinions and theories are being discussed, that's what this forum is about. I would expect any future posts to be rather nicer in their tone.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by aquila on 29.05.14 14:25

candyfloss wrote:
johnknox wrote:

If we are now doubting the evidence of Mrs. Fenn then the rabbits have truly taken over the cabbage patch.

Firstly who is this we, and secondly opinions and theories are being discussed, that's what this forum is about.  I would expect any future posts to be rather nicer in their tone.
There are only two people currently on this forum to my knowledge that call Sharonl 'sharoni'.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by bobbin on 29.05.14 14:27

Looking again at your accusation John Knox, it would appear that sharonl has accurately reported the facts given by the GNR. Perhaps an apology would be appropriate.

John Knox said
“Not for the first time Sharoni you have stated as fact info which is not
.In the interests of justice for Maddie can you please be more accurate with your comments.Thank You.”

Sharonl said
“4.  She claims to have phoned her friend, Edna Glyn,  late at night to tell her about the incident.  A GNR officer, claims that it was Rob Murat that she phoned.”
[...]
the GNR officer said
“Quoted from statement:
He does remember however, that on a day he cannot recall, an individual who identified himself as Robert, saying that he was in P da L as a translator helping the PJ, phoned the Lagos post saying:

That some foreign women, who had already been interviewed by the police, had phoned him, telling him that there was a child crying in an apartment near to them.”

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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 14:48

@aquila wrote:I'm supposed to be on 'eyesight rest' ....that's keeping away from screens. I'm trying...I'm really trying.


Yikes Aquila. Please take it easy!

Actually TozerDerry's first "contribution" was to defend that drunken Irish couple against the slurs of the all bungling, sardine quaffing Portuguese police.
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Re: Occam's razor, Not Occam's razor or possibly a third option ?

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 14:50

@aquila wrote:
There are only two people currently on this forum to my knowledge that call Sharonl 'sharoni'.

I must admit that I've always read it as "Sharoni", but as I don't think I've ever referred to her by name then I can't be sure if I've inadvertently stumbled into your sights or not.
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