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Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

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Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 20:56

According to the statement made by Dianne Webster on 4th May 2007:

'Concerning the day yesterday, she went to the beach with the children, her son-in-law and her daughter. They arrived there at around 3.45pm and left at around 6.15pm to go to the tennis courts where she stayed until 7pm. The informant then went to the apartment with the small children and ten minutes later, her son-in-law, David, joined them. With her son-in-law's help, they bathed the children.'

DW is quite clear.  She went from the tennis courts to their apartment with the children.  After 10 minutes, David Payne arrives at the apartment and they bathe the children (after all, he's had a lot of practice).

No mention of when Fiona returned to the apartment.  If the bathing took around 20 minutes, then Fiona's whereabouts are unknown from 7pm until 7.30pm.

Dianne Webster changed her story in her statement made on 11th May 2007:

'Prompted to report the events that had unfolded in period between 19H00 and 22H40 of that day, the deponent states that around 19:00 she had gone together with the Payne couple and their children to the apartment in order to prepare them for bed. Then, as usual, the adults prepared themselves for dinner.'

So by the 11th, Dianne now claimed that Fiona accompanied her from the tennis courts to the apartment at 7pm.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER.htm
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANNE_WEBSTER_11-MAY07.htm

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 21:03

Fiona Payne's 4th May statement differs from her mother's:

'Yesterday they slightly altered their routine, they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15H45 and left at 18H15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19H00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20H00. Afterwards, she returned to the apartment and got ready. She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.'

According to Fiona, she went with her mother to the apartment at 7pm, which agrees with Dianne's statement of the 11th May.

Dianne's 11th May statement says that they got ready to go for dinner, and does not mention Fiona being absent from the apartment while she went jogging until 8:00pm.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Guest on 01.05.14 21:28

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Fiona Payne's 4th May statement differs from her mother's:

'Yesterday they slightly altered their routine, they went to the beach with the children and her mother Dianne. They arrived there around 15H45 and left at 18H15, and headed towards the tennis court until about 19H00. Immediately afterwards, the witness headed towards the apartment with her children, and her mother. Ten minutes later her husband David appeared. In the apartment her mother, helped by her husband David, bathed the children whilst the witness went jogging on the beach until around 20H00. Afterwards, she returned to the apartment and got ready. She left around 20H45, accompanied by David and her mother, in order to meet the rest of the group in the Tapas restaurant.'

According to Fiona, she went with her mother to the apartment at 7pm, which agrees with Dianne's statement of the 11th May.

Dianne's 11th May statement says that they got ready to go for dinner, and does not mention Fiona being absent from the apartment while she went jogging until 8:00pm.

According to Fiona she was in 5a at 7pm:



Processos Vol. XIII
Pages 3909-3915

To: Ricardo Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

....I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband...


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id236.html
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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 21:33

And in other statements Kate was never at the tennis court, and David Payne went to 5A to see if she needed 'help with the kids' for 30 seconds or 30 minutes depending on whose statement we're reading.

So Fiona contradicted her own earlier statements by saying that she went to 5A at 7pm in the rogatory interview.  Interesting.  So if this is correct, then Dianne Webster's first statement was accurate.  The bit about 'the husband' confuses things though.  I read it to mean Gerry, otherwise it may have read 'her husband'.  But it could just as easily be DP, it's too ambiguous.

If DW's first statement was accurate, then she must have been told to change her story on the 11th to match Fiona's original statement.  And then much later on, Fiona changes the story herself.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Guest on 01.05.14 21:42

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:And in other statements Kate was never at the tennis court, and David Payne went to 5A to see if she needed 'help with the kids' for 30 seconds or 30 minutes depending on whose statement we're reading.

So Fiona contradicted her own earlier statements by saying that she went to 5A at 7pm in the rogatory interview.  Interesting.  So if this is correct, then Dianne Webster's first statement was accurate.  The bit about 'the husband' confuses things though.  I read it to mean Gerry, otherwise it may have read 'her husband'.  But it could just as easily be DP, it's too ambiguous.

If DW's first statement was accurate, then she must have been told to change her story on the 11th to match Fiona's original statement.  And then much later on, Fiona changes the story herself.
The FP declaration above was taken before the rogatory statement WLBTS, sometime before 24th October 2007.
In her rogatory she doesn't mention this visit at all.
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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by russiandoll on 01.05.14 21:46

These 2 always fly under the radar and need closer scrutiny imo.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 21:51

@dantezebu - Ah yes, I can see that now :)

But something doesn't make sense ...

Processos Vol. XIII
Pages 3909-3915

To: Ricardo Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007

....I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband...

What declarations is DC Marshall referring to?  Could he be confused?  Fiona's 4th May statement states that she went to her apartment, not 5A, with Dianne Webster, and that 10 minutes later David Payne arrived.  Seems very similar, but different apartment.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 21:53

Must be referring to this:

'Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionnaire was supplied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.'

The letter says:

'Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with "they conform to my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.'

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Guest on 01.05.14 22:01

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Must be referring to this:

'Intriguingly, the letter from LP mentions the completion of a written questionnaire - by David and Fiona Payne - but it is unclear whether that questionnaire was supplied by the PJ or whether it was instigated by LP themselves. There appears to be no copy of the questionnaire anywhere in the PJ files.'

The letter says:

'Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with "they conform to my earlier deposition" or some similar statement.'
The letter from Mike Marshall was the cover letter for the Gaspar's statements. 
I think the questionnaires might be retained by LPD as they do not appear in the files.
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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 22:05

Seems to be large quantities of inconsistent b*ll**ks from the Paynes, I guess nobody is surprised by that ;-)

For me the most interesting thing is that Dianne Webster initially could not give Fiona's whereabouts at 7pm and for some time afterwards.  Also interesting is that she changed her version of events a week later to match her daughter's.

I'm sure Amaral would have queried that Fiona later claimed to have gone to 5A with Kate in that questionnaire, had he been in place to do so at that time.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by PeterMac on 01.05.14 22:07

None of it matters.
Madeleine was long since dead and disposed of by that time on 3rd.
Gerry took the afternoon off - RUPTURED ACHILLES TENDON   (Miraculously healed by the intervention of the recently Sanctified JP11  )   - and mucked about with Blue tennis bag - big enough to hide a  ermm, eerm, Tennis racquet "
Gerry had the entire afternoon, in full view, in full kit, with full equipment to do whatever he wanted, with cars, taxis, and anything else.
And it was a dull and overcast afternoon - NOT the Last Photo afternoon, which was obviously the Sunday - So not many people would have been around anyway. Tapas groups had been banished to the Paraiso, for the first and last time, to parade in front of the CCTV camera.
The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away.   Address on application
With all facilities.  (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land,  . . .you name it   AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)
There and back in 15.
And then, in true McCann / Mitchell tradition, they overplay everything else,
He plays tennis like a demon, so much so that he had to send a mate to check that his wife is alive / well / OK / coping , and to check on his 3 - or at least his 2 remaining  children.

Ludicrous scenario to purport, obviously !

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 22:08

If someone subscribes to that theory then yes, it doesn't matter :)

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Nina on 01.05.14 22:12

Wow PeterMac, I am sat with my mouth wide open, not a pretty sight, but your last post has me stunned.
I do hope that this information is in the hands of all who need to know.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 22:16


The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away. Address on application
With all facilities. (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land, . . .you name it AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)
There and back in 15.

Actually, I do find these hints tantalising :) Is this venue referred to in the files?

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Guest on 01.05.14 22:17

@Nina wrote:Wow PeterMac, I am sat with my mouth wide open, not a pretty sight, but your last post has me stunned.
I do hope that this information is in the hands of all who need to know.

Ditto!

I wish PeterMac was in charge of Op Grange.
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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by diatribe on 01.05.14 22:24

@PeterMac wrote:None of it matters.
Madeleine was long since dead and disposed of by that time on 3rd.
Gerry took the afternoon off - RUPTURED ACHILLES TENDON   (Miraculously healed by the intervention of the recently Sanctified JP11  )   - and mucked about with Blue tennis bag - big enough to hide a  ermm, eerm, Tennis racquet "
Gerry had the entire afternoon, in full view, in full kit, with full equipment to do whatever he wanted, with cars, taxis, and anything else.
And it was a dull and overcast afternoon - NOT the Last Photo afternoon, which was obviously the Sunday - So not many people would have been around anyway. Tapas groups had been banished to the Paraiso, for the first and last time, to parade in front of the CCTV camera.
The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away.   Address on application
With all facilities.  (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land,  . . .you name it   AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)
There and back in 15.
And then, in true McCann / Mitchell tradition, they overplay everything else,
He plays tennis like a demon, so much so that he had to send a mate to check that his wife is alive / well / OK / coping , and to check on his 3 - or at least his 2 remaining  children.

Ludicrous scenario to purport, obviously !

So, with your 'ludicrous' scenario, you agree with me that the key to this case lies with the Catriona Baker timeline alibi.

Although I'm in a bit of a quandary over Catriona Baker, because my logical instinct won't allow me to believe that the McCanns would involve a 19 yr. old girl with no criminal past or police experience to alibi them up by stating that Madeleine spent the afternoon in her company. I can accept that they may have subliminally managed to persuade her that Madeleince was in her company later than may have been the case, but to trust her to state she was with her all afternoon if she wasn't is a very risky gambit. Then there's the subsequent reward money, a 19 yr. old girl on a low wage income-----

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where was fiona payne

Post by mariola on 01.05.14 22:37

@PeterMac wrote:None of it matters.
Madeleine was long since dead and disposed of by that time on 3rd.
Gerry took the afternoon off - RUPTURED ACHILLES TENDON   (Miraculously healed by the intervention of the recently Sanctified JP11  )   - and mucked about with Blue tennis bag - big enough to hide a  ermm, eerm, Tennis racquet "
Gerry had the entire afternoon, in full view, in full kit, with full equipment to do whatever he wanted, with cars, taxis, and anything else.
And it was a dull and overcast afternoon - NOT the Last Photo afternoon, which was obviously the Sunday - So not many people would have been around anyway. Tapas groups had been banished to the Paraiso, for the first and last time, to parade in front of the CCTV camera.
The venue . . . ?
Less than five minutes away.   Address on application
With all facilities.  (Commercial Fridges, freezers, outhouses, land,  . . .you name it   AND YES. The PJ DID execute a search warrant, but much too late.)
There and back in 15.
And then, in true McCann / Mitchell tradition, they overplay everything else,
He plays tennis like a demon, so much so that he had to send a mate to check that his wife is alive / well / OK / coping , and to check on his 3 - or at least his 2 remaining  children.

Ludicrous scenario to purport, obviously !
What about the smith family sighting?

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by russiandoll on 01.05.14 22:37

This is another key to the case imo

 " Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children."

  Wearing a watch he was not wearing acc to Clarrie.

  At the tapas table at around 10 pm, the time Redwood is interested in.

 

      

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Guest on 01.05.14 22:40

Where's the venue......
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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 22:53

@russiandoll wrote:This is another key to the case imo

 " Half and hour later, without anything to remark, it being 22h03, he again alerted KATE that it was time to check the children."

  Wearing a watch he was not wearing acc to Clarrie.

  At the tapas table at around 10 pm, the time Redwood is interested in.
 

Hmm, interesting.

STARIKOVA VITORINO (Russian citizen, with the telephone No "96635 ####) - kitchen assistant:
- Said that, yesterday, one individual, purportedly the father of the missing, left the dinner table where a group of friends (in number 8 or 9), for about 30 minutes. After having returned, a woman whom she believed to be his wife, also left the table, there having passed a few moments, all the guests left the table in question, except one elderly lady, who told her [Svetlana's] colleagues that that child had disappeared.

JOAQUIM JOSE MOREIRA BATISTA (residing at Rua Ilha Terceira, no. 15, Lagos, Telephone No 91 277 ####) - table employee [waiter].
- Of the group of 8/9 British citizens who dined at the restaurant last night, as usual, of which the parents of missing were part (he didn't know them) he noticed that two individuals left the table, of the male gender.
- The first to leave was about 40/45 years old (tall, skinny, white complexion, with large [a full head of] hair of color gray) and the period of his absence was about 15 minutes, being that they had to [re-]heat his food, which had cooled;
- The second to leave (about 40/45 years of age, having the physical characteristics of the first, but having less bulky hair) did so for about 30 minutes, and that shortly after he returned, all left the table, except for an elderly person, who told him that a child had disappeared, the daughter of a member of the group, due to which he thought that the second person to leave could have been the father of the child;


Both these statements have a male leaving the table for about 30 minutes - both statements identify this person as possibly being Gerry.  Shortly afterwards everyone left the Tapas, and Vitorino adds that Kate left first, a few moments before everyone else left.

I had previously assumed that the 30 minute period started from Gerry's claimed 9:04 check. But Batista's statement puts another male away from the table from 15 minutes, and presumably dinner was served during this time.  So very unlikely that the 30 minute period started from 9:04, because we have another 15 minute period of absence before that, and dinner already being served.

If Kate's check really was at 10:03 as claimed, then Gerry must have been absent from the table during the time 9:30-10:00 approximately, according to these statements.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by PeterMac on 01.05.14 22:56

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Actually, I do find these hints tantalising :)  Is this venue referred to in the files?
Yes, it is.
I have no other source of information.
I wish  . . . . .   !
I work from the evidence we have.
I try to keep things simple  -  Occam's Razor.

As with DCI Redwood's revelation -
it came from something already in the files.

He only had to trace and identify the man and Tannerman as the only evidence available of Abduction - was blown right out of the water.
Which means no abduction.
Which means Madeleine was not alive when she left the apartment - which Redwood has since verified as the logical corollary of the above.
And as Kate has most recently intimated the McCanns have begun, publicly, to accept - but obviously for different reasons.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by russiandoll on 01.05.14 23:00

WLBTS-    I believe he did take a time out for a walk through certain streets in PdL, carrying a small fair haired girl in PJs.

  The all clear was given and ACT 3 could begin. The " abductor " had been seen.

 way off- topic sorry..... re FP I believe that she was in 5a early evening helping Kate with settling the twins down for the night.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by diatribe on 01.05.14 23:01

@mariola wrote:
What about the smith family sighting?

Its of no relevance to this case, if it were, our intrepid Inspector Redwood wouldn't be drawing attention to it. Every word and action that has emanated from the Met. Police has detracted from the involvement of the McCanns.

If Inspector Redwood encourages you to look around Tottenham, you can safely discount N. London and commence searching down the Old Kent Rd.

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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by Guest on 01.05.14 23:03

Im intrigued,hope those interested act on the information. Its the first time I've heard anything about such a building. Would that make the smith sighting legit?
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Re: Where was Fiona Payne at 7pm on 3rd May 2007?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 01.05.14 23:04

@PeterMac wrote:
Yes, it is.
I have no other source of information.
I wish  . . . . .   !
I work from the evidence we have.
I try to keep things simple  -  Occam's Razor.

As with DCI Redwood's revelation -
it came from something already in the files.

He only had to trace and identify the man and Tannerman as the only evidence available of Abduction - was blown right out of the water.
Which means no abduction.
Which means Madeleine was not alive when she left the apartment - which Redwood has since verified as the logical corollary of the above.
And as Kate has most recently intimated the McCanns have begun, publicly, to accept - but obviously for different reasons.

Well, I am slowly beginning to become convinced.  Not quite there yet, but getting there.

I've always felt that the date of the 'Last Photo' has been altered.  My technical experience tells me that it is ridiculously easy to do this without leaving any trace.

And if the date has been altered, that can only suggest one or two things.  That it has been done to provide an alibi for Gerry, or to demonstrate that Maddie was 'most definitely' alive at that time, or both.

Looking at Gerry and Kate's activities for the day, if you take away the statements of Catriona Baker and Jane Tanner then they could have been doing anything, for most of the day.

Getting there Petermac, slowly but surely - thanks to your keen intellect :)

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