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Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

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of course they can not apply for a death certificate.

Post by lj on 26.04.14 17:09

Of course they can not apply for a death certificate, which would turn their trial with Dr. Amaral into a mockery.

Yes, I agree, it's already that.


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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by Cristobell on 26.04.14 17:19

I find it deeply disturbing that the McCanns are encouraged by the new leads that suggest she is in the hands of a smelly pervert who sexually abuses children.  'Our daughter is in the hands of a monster, but here is a old picture of the two of us looking hopeful and a reminder that we will never stop looking for donations'.

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 26.04.14 18:21

About being made WOC: the story we were told at the time (at least what I remember from it, but maybe I have still some old posts about that) was that this was done on advice of the Family Law Group. The rational behind it (again according to what we were told) was that would significantly facilitate all kind of administrative steps, like requesting files, filing requests etc, or iow a judge can cut easier through red tape than parents.
Of course it was shortly after we learned that the parents were desperate to get their hands on some files from the Leicester police and the PJ.  Files that probably had nothing to do with the wellbeing of Madeleine and neither had the reason why they wanted these files so bad. The files were requested by justice Hog, warden for Madeleine. However the majority were held back, again iirc with the argument from the Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police that "While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."

On another note: does any of our legal eagles know if the application for a death certificate has be applied for in Portugal, since death likely occurred there, or can be requested in Britain, or both?


All things posted are either from memory (as indicated) or just my opinion.

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by suzyjohnson on 26.04.14 23:03

lj I think they would be able to apply for a certificate in England. After all how would the system work in cases where people have no idea where their relative is? Lost at sea for example, or a missing traveller.

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by aquila on 26.04.14 23:19

A while ago I read Missing People's website (yes all of it).

There is information regarding Presumption of Death. The website has had an overhaul since I read all of this info.

This is snipped from the current website:

Presumption of Death: Resolving a missing person's affairs
As it stands, different presumption of death systems are in place across the United Kingdom for those families who either need or want to conclude the affairs of a missing loved one. This is set to change however, with the Presumption of Death Act 2013 passed for England and Wales in March 2013. When in force, this will a create a new court procedure which can lead to the issue of a Certificate of Presumed Death, and will bring England and Wales in line with the systems already in place in Scotland and Northern Ireland. For more information on the Act, see our briefing on it here.

As the rules and regulations for the new Act are yet to be finalised, there will be a delay before families can use the new court procedure. At present, it is expected that they will be in place in October 2014, and we will keep this page updated with developments. Until this time, our existing family guidance, which you may find of use, is still relevant. You can find this here.

https://www.missingpeople.org.uk/how-we-can-help/professionals/legal-and-financial.html

In the part I've highlighted I clicked onto the link but it doesn't work. The information may well be stored somewhere else on the website but as with all things Missing People it's not very easy to find specific information. Just my opinion.
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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 26.04.14 23:44

suzyjohnson wrote:lj I think they would be able to apply for a certificate in England. After all how would the system work in cases where people have no idea where their relative is? Lost at sea for example, or a missing traveller.

That's why I think it would be possible to request that in England too.

However in this case death is almost certain a homicide, even if just a negligent homicide. I wonder that would make a difference.

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by aquila on 26.04.14 23:55

lj wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:lj I think they would be able to apply for a certificate in England. After all how would the system work in cases where people have no idea where their relative is? Lost at sea for example, or a missing traveller.

That's why I think it would be possible to  request that in England too.

However in this case death is almost certain a homicide, even if just a negligent homicide. I wonder that would make a difference.
I think the point that's being missed is the reason why a family would apply. Why would the McCanns seek to apply? Just because it's an available option to deal with the estate of the missing person what benefit would that be to the McCanns? It's my understanding that it's to wrap up the estate of a missing person - I've tried to find the info that was available on Missing People's website but it's missing.

Perhaps ultimaThule can help out here.
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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 27.04.14 0:31

aquila wrote:
lj wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:lj I think they would be able to apply for a certificate in England. After all how would the system work in cases where people have no idea where their relative is? Lost at sea for example, or a missing traveller.

That's why I think it would be possible to  request that in England too.

However in this case death is almost certain a homicide, even if just a negligent homicide. I wonder that would make a difference.
I think the point that's being missed is the reason why a family would apply. Why would the McCanns seek to apply? Just because it's an available option to deal with the estate of the missing person what benefit would that be to the McCanns? It's my understanding that it's to wrap up the estate of a missing person - I've tried to find the info that was available on Missing People's website but it's missing.

Perhaps ultimaThule can help out here.

Thanks Aquila for that link.
I agree there is no reason at all for them to get such a certificate at the current moment. On the contrary they have many reasons to not do that, most of those reasons being financial in nature.

That's why this article again is so ridiculous, as if it is a brave thing from Kate to not apply for that.

Ha




All just my opinion of course ..........

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 27.04.14 0:35

Cristobell wrote:I find it deeply disturbing that the McCanns are encouraged by the new leads that suggest she is in the hands of a smelly pervert who sexually abuses children.  'Our daughter is in the hands of a monster, but here is a old picture of the two of us looking hopeful and a reminder that we will never stop looking for donations'.

I agree, Christobell, but then their claim that there is no proof she has come to any harm is equally disgusting. Because even without perverts Madeleine's fate at this moment can only be described as pretty dire.

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"And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment, why would that be our fault?"  Gerry

http://pjga.blogspot.co.uk/?m=0

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 27.04.14 0:37

tigger wrote:
sharonl wrote:The ground for making a declaration is that the missing person is thought to have died or has not been known to be alive for at least seven years (subsection (1)). Anyone can apply to the court for a declaration of presumed death, but if the applicant is someone other than the spouse, civil partner, parent, child or sibling of the missing person, the court must refuse to hear the application unless it considers that the applicant has a sufficient interest in the determination of the application (subsections (2) and (5)). It is for the court to decide whether any interest is sufficient for the purposes of this section. Sibling is defined in section 20(1) to include siblings of the full or half blood. The period of seven years may be altered by regulations under section 17. Subsection (6) refers to section 21(2) which provides that a declaration may not be sought in respect of the person of the Monarch.

Right to intervene
45.Section 11 specifies who may intervene in an application for a declaration under section 1 or a variation order under section 5 (subsections (1) – (3)). The following persons are entitled to intervene: the missing person’s spouse, civil partner, parent, child or sibling and the Attorney General. The court may permit other persons to intervene.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/13/notes

Over to Tony

Jumping in here, the biological parents are not in loco parentis as she's a ward of court.
If - as it seems - they cannot name her as oneof the claimants in the libel trial, they certainly can't apply for a declaration of death.
UltimaThule has at various times posted on this situation with the appropriate references. I believe Maddie is a Ward of Court up to her 18th birthday.
This is not my area of expertise, I'm just repeating what I've read but it makes sense to me.

Btw doesn't that photograph on page 1  prove the benefits of Botox to achieve an unruffled forehead?

He's getting it for his migraines .... iconbiggrin 

Kate's symptoms of anorexia are so clear.

All just my opinion.


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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by jeanmonroe on 27.04.14 3:10

Kate's symptoms of anorexia are so clear.
-----------------------------------------------

Anorexia or 'GUILT'?

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by tigger on 27.04.14 6:48

sharonl wrote:Well done Tigger, I am sure that you are correct and that this decision is out of their hands.

The only thing that I can think of for making Madeleine a ward of court would be to delay Social Services if they had got involved and arranged new guardianship for her, or even adoption.  It would also prevent a close relative from applying for guardianship.

Are we sure that it was just Madeleine that was made Ward of court?  All 3 children were at risk?


Iirc there was a visit from a social worker sort of person soon after they returned in 2007. Usual thing - A grade parents as already attested by the milkman Alan Pike in PdL.

There lingers a recollection in my memory of the McCs going on holiday with the twins in 2008 - to Canada, visiting Aunt Norah and some remark I read that it was the last time they could take the twins abroad.
The WoC status took over a year to become 'active'.  Which seems a long time after the application was made.
It would be interesting to know exactly when the WoC came into force, if it was after the Canadian holiday or not.

The social services visit is in Chapter 19 of KH1. Wording is interesting, the whole thing was initiated by the McCanns. Of course it was...

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 27.04.14 7:18

jeanmonroe wrote:Kate's symptoms of anorexia are so clear.
-----------------------------------------------

Anorexia or 'GUILT'?


Nah, no guilt jean. Kate is a true sociopath and thus can't be guilty of anything. She is good in "it's not as if we did anything wrong" , somewhere I have a list of these excuses, but my computer is feeling a bit under the weather.

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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by canada12 on 27.04.14 8:06

tigger wrote:

Iirc there was a visit from a social worker sort of person soon after they returned in 2007. Usual thing - A grade parents as already attested by the milkman Alan Pike in PdL.

There lingers a recollection in my memory of the McCs going on holiday with the twins in 2008 - to Canada, visiting Aunt Norah and some remark I read that it was the last time they could take the twins abroad.
The WoC status took over a year to become 'active'.  Which seems a long time after the application was made.
It would be interesting to know exactly when the WoC came into force, if it was after the Canadian holiday or not.

The social services visit is in Chapter 19 of KH1. Wording is interesting, the whole thing was initiated by the McCanns. Of course it was...

Yes I remember reading about the Social Services visit in the British press. Gerry and Kate invited them round for tea or something.

Here's some MSM coverage of the McCanns' Vancouver visit in July 2008. I remember it well as I live in Vancouver. Got very little press coverage here. Lots of press coverage in the British media. Most people here had no idea who they were and couldn't have cared less.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/wish-she-was-here-1655474


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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by Silverspeed on 27.04.14 10:11

sharonl wrote:
tigger wrote:
sharonl wrote:The ground for making a declaration is that the missing person is thought to have died or has not been known to be alive for at least seven years (subsection (1)). Anyone can apply to the court for a declaration of presumed death, but if the applicant is someone other than the spouse, civil partner, parent, child or sibling of the missing person, the court must refuse to hear the application unless it considers that the applicant has a sufficient interest in the determination of the application (subsections (2) and (5)). It is for the court to decide whether any interest is sufficient for the purposes of this section. Sibling is defined in section 20(1) to include siblings of the full or half blood. The period of seven years may be altered by regulations under section 17. Subsection (6) refers to section 21(2) which provides that a declaration may not be sought in respect of the person of the Monarch.

Right to intervene
45.Section 11 specifies who may intervene in an application for a declaration under section 1 or a variation order under section 5 (subsections (1) – (3)). The following persons are entitled to intervene: the missing person’s spouse, civil partner, parent, child or sibling and the Attorney General. The court may permit other persons to intervene.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/13/notes
Over to Tony

Jumping in here, the biological parents are not in loco parentis as she's a ward of court.
If - as it seems - they cannot name her as oneof the claimants in the libel trial, they certainly can't apply for a declaration of death.
UltimaThule has at various times posted on this situation with the appropriate references. I believe Maddie is a Ward of Court up to her 18th birthday.
This is not my area of expertise, I'm just repeating what I've read but it makes sense to me.

Btw doesn't that photograph on page 1  prove the benefits of Botox to achieve an unruffled forehead?

Thanks Tigger

That's clearer now. So if the decision is out their hands, it's down to someone else, Sarah Hogg? So the legal guardian can apply for this certificate? What then for the Team McCann & the fund?


That's just what I was wondering Sharonl. Can you imagine their reaction if the legal guardian were able to and did apply for it. Not much chance of that ever happening though.
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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by jeanmonroe on 27.04.14 10:55

No neglect = no 'abduction'

'presumed dead' = no 'fund/online store'


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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by SchrodingersBody on 29.04.14 12:44

According to the UK government website, a death abroad must currently be registered locally in the country of death. I presume that would apply at the point you "realise" they are dead, rather than the point htey are missing. I also presume the 7 year thing would be applied for in this country.

You need a doctor to certify the death, maybe the first doctor to see Madeleine after her death, is just really slow with their paperwork.

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Ohh!

Post by Letterwriter on 29.04.14 14:22

I hope you're not saying that a doctor saw Madeleine after her death?  Or even that she is dead.
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Re: Maddie McCann's parents: ''We won't apply for death certificate and still hold out hope 7 years on"

Post by lj on 29.04.14 14:50

SchrodingersBody wrote:According to the UK government website, a death abroad must currently be registered locally in the country of death. I presume that would apply at the point you "realise" they are dead, rather than the point htey are missing. I also presume the 7 year thing would be applied for in this country.

You need a doctor to certify the death, maybe the first doctor to see Madeleine after her death, is just really slow with their paperwork.

Who's "you", any normal thinking person or the scheming parents?

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