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Contemporaneous: the first recall

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Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Nightfly on 10.04.14 17:37

When I had an car accident the solicitor dealing with my case instructed me to write down everything I could remember immediately as contemperaneously produced notes carried the most weight if it ever came before a judge. When I look at the Oscar Pretorius case the prosecution barrister is making great headway by questioning those statements made straight after the shooting. Having sat on many trials over the years, cross examination using these techniques is crucial and the defendant's reaction is always interesting - humans don't tell lies very well. Sometimes body language is intuitively read by all in the court and the pauses and flustered answers also point to guilt.
The first statements made remain the best accounts. Surely cross examination under pressure to establish the inconsistences would be the best way to resolve the McCann case either to establish their guilt or exonerate them? The number of changes in this case to the initial statements made is the main point of concern especially as it appears that on the first night attempts were made to provide a timeline (contemperaneously). A trial should have taken place and the suspects vigourously questions on their inconsistences.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 10.04.14 17:43

I totally agree with this point, thank you very much for making it.

I'll take some time to make my own list of comparisons between the first statements and how things stand now. However, one of the unfortunate facts of this case is that the PJ didn't ask enough questions during the original interviews, the statements of the Tapas 9 are all brief and cover very few details.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by plebgate on 10.04.14 17:54

Yes good OP.  

Judges do not like changes in statements at all, normally not even one, as we have heard from lawyers in SA when being interviewed for tv in the Oscar P. case.  Once doubt is in the judge's mind, it is hard to turn that around according to the recent reports.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by ultimaThule on 10.04.14 19:06

If the McCanns were to be tried in an English court of law, they would be subject to cross examination by the prosecution but IMO it is highly unlikely that their defence counsel would want them to take the stand. 

If the McCanns were to be tried in a Portuguese court of of law it's unlikely they would be subject to cross examination of the type you describe, Nightfly, as Portugal's justice system is inquisitorial.
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 10.04.14 19:49

@Nightfly wrote:When I had an car accident the solicitor dealing with my case instructed me to write down everything I could remember immediately as contemperaneously produced notes carried the most weight if it ever came before a judge. When I look at the Oscar Pretorius case the prosecution barrister is making great headway by questioning those statements made straight after the shooting. Having sat on many trials over the years, cross examination using these techniques is crucial and the defendant's reaction is always interesting - humans don't tell lies very well. Sometimes body language is intuitively read by all in the court and the pauses and flustered answers also point to guilt.
The first statements made remain the best accounts. Surely cross examination under pressure to establish the inconsistences would be the best way to resolve the McCann case either to establish their guilt or exonerate them? The number of changes in this case to the initial statements made is the main point of concern especially as it appears that on the first night attempts were made to provide a timeline (contemperaneously). A trial should have taken place and the suspects vigourously questions on their inconsistences.
The problem being, all the initial statements were taken on a witness basis, not under caution or the Portugese equivalent of arguido status. The McCanns if prosecuted would be under no obligation to answer any police questions or those under oath in a court of law. Their friends  might be able to be subpeoned to give evidence on the basis of their witness statements whilst being held in contempt of court if refusing to do so, although they also would be in the same priviliged position if charged with anything relating to conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, accessory after the fact to murder etc.

At the risk of being repetitive, the British police have no jurisdiction to question either the McCanns or their friends other than on a voluntary basis where all the questions would be predetermined by their respective lawyers. The Portugese police cannot further question the aforementioned, because in order to do so, they would have to issue extradition warrants which would have to be substantiated with tangible evidence which they don't have, otherwise they would have done so many yrs. ago. That is the reason the McCanns left Portugal at the first available opportunity after they realised the game was over as far as the Portugese police were concerned whilst retaining a counsel specialising in extradition matters.

I'm afraid its a Catch 22 situation which ain't gonna be resolved anytime in the near future, if ever. Even if Madeleine's remains were to be found, it is unlikely that the cause of death could be determined due to the passing of time, although were they to be recovered in close proximity to where the McCanns were vacating, it would undoubtably add weight to a case built on circumstantial evidence. All the lies, inconsistencies and guilt ridden behavourial patterns on the planet don't constitute a prima facia case, there has to be some form of tangible evidence to accompany them. At the moment, it cannot even be legally established that Madeleine is dead, that's why it is in the interest of the McCanns to continue propagating the myth that she is still alive, no matter what the cost, be it financial or otherwise.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by roy rovers on 10.04.14 21:32

I noted in the commentary to today's unsuccessful prosecution by the CPS of former speaker of the House of Commons Nigel Evans (on top of the recent unsuccessful prosecutions of Dave Lee Travis, Michael Le Vell and Bill Roache) that they do not prosecute unless there is a greater than 50% prospect of success and that prosecution is 'in the public interest'. No chance they will risk a McCanns trial without something more substantial than what there is now.
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 11.04.14 1:14

@roy rovers wrote:I noted in the commentary to today's unsuccessful prosecution by the CPS of former speaker of the House of Commons Nigel Evans (on top of the recent unsuccessful prosecutions of Dave Lee Travis, Michael Le Vell and Bill Roache) that they do not prosecute unless there is a greater than 50% prospect of success and that prosecution is 'in the public interest'. No chance they will risk a McCanns trial without something more substantial than what there is now.


Although the CPS only require a 50% chance of success in order to mount a prosecution, they have an disproportionately high conviction rate of 83%. In the case of the McCanns, the decision on whether to prosecute would fall on the Portuguese prosecuting authorities, not the CPS.

The CPS would only become involved with the fraudulent fund aspect in the event of a successful prosecution by the Portuguese courts in respect to the disappearance of the McCanns' daughter. The burden of proof in respect to a successful prosecution against the McCanns for the instigation of a fraudulent fund would only need to extend to knowledge of what transpired with their daughter, not actual participation in the disappearance. Although in reality, I imagine it would be difficult to have knowledge without participation even if it were on a periphery basis.

NB. Without wishing to appear pedantic, could one of the moderators correct the spelling of  'contemperaneous' in the heading of this thread to contemporaneous. After all, there's no shortage of requests for having my posts deleted and we wouldn't want our detractors thinking we were sub literates, would we now. big grin

[

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by ultimaThule on 11.04.14 5:59

May I remind you that in cases of murder and manslaughter, the UK courts have jurisdiction if these crimes are alleged to have been comitted by British nationals abroad, diatribe, and this fact has been verified by Tony Bennett. 

Fwiw, by reciprocal agreement, Portugal has jurisdiction in crimes of murder and manslaughter committed by its citizens when abroad.

In a case of this nature, it's improbable that two countries would agree to hold 2 consecutive trials, one of which may not take place until such time as any sentence handed down by the first court to try the accused has been served, and expediency would suggest that one court/country would try all charges simultaneously.  

Should there be any disagreement between the two countries, in this particular case both are subject to the law of the EU except in those statutes where either may have exercised a veto 

Ftr since your return to this forum a couple of days ago, I have not requested that any of your responses be deleted which fact Admin and/or the moderators will no doubt confirm.
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Nightfly on 11.04.14 10:16

I just believe that when someone is put into a difficult situation such as a child missing then adrenaline kicks in and your senses are hypersensitive with the brain alert and fully awake. In these situations writing down what you can recall or telling someone what you remember must be the most relevant and even if some small additions are recalled later the substance of that first memory is the most vital. For people involved to dramatically change their stories collectively changing the most important details is unbelievable. The judge yesterday reminded Oscar Pretorius that he seemed to be altering his story to fit the akward questioning and tried to pin him down on specifics which when your lying is hard to do.
Apologies for spelling mistake!

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 11.04.14 16:08

@ultimaThule wrote:May I remind you that in cases of murder and manslaughter, the UK courts have jurisdiction if these crimes are alleged to have been comitted by British nationals abroad, diatribe, and this fact has been verified by Tony Bennett. 
.

Tony also believed and still holds the opinion that his private prosecution against the McCanns for negligence in Portugal could have been dealt within the UK justice system, despite a ruling handed down from the Attorney General that such a matter did not lie within the jurisdiction of the UK justice system.

@ultimaThule wrote:
In a case of this nature, it's improbable that two countries would agree to hold 2 consecutive trials, one of which may not take place until such time as any sentence handed down by the first court to try the accused has been served, and expediency would suggest that one court/country would try all charges simultaneously.  .

Are you suggesting that a fraud indictment would be annexed to a murder/manslaughter indictment and dealt with simultaneously. If I were the McCann's lawyers in such an occurrence, I would be demanding severance of indictments, because the prejudicial value would undoubtably outweigh the probative value. As for expediency value, I hardly think that the evidence in a murder trial being predominantly in Portugese and fraud documentation being in English would be in any way conducive to expediency.

@ultimaThule wrote:

Ftr since your return to this forum a couple of days ago, I have not requested that any of your responses be deleted which fact Admin and/or the moderators will no doubt confirm.

I didn't state that you had, methinks you protesteth too much. I know how much you appreciate oldie world English.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by plebgate on 11.04.14 19:09

@Nightfly wrote:I just believe that when someone is put into a difficult situation such as a child missing then adrenaline kicks in and your senses are hypersensitive with the brain alert and fully awake. In these situations writing down what you can recall or telling someone what you remember must be the most relevant and even if some small additions are recalled later the substance of that first memory is the most vital. For people involved to dramatically change their stories collectively changing the most important details is unbelievable. The judge yesterday reminded Oscar Pretorius that he seemed to be altering his story to fit the akward questioning and tried to pin him down on specifics which when your lying is hard to do.
Apologies for spelling mistake!
I have always wondered why no photos were taken  of how the flat was found before everyone started traipsing through it.

.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by canada12 on 11.04.14 20:11

@plebgate wrote:
@Nightfly wrote:I just believe that when someone is put into a difficult situation such as a child missing then adrenaline kicks in and your senses are hypersensitive with the brain alert and fully awake. In these situations writing down what you can recall or telling someone what you remember must be the most relevant and even if some small additions are recalled later the substance of that first memory is the most vital. For people involved to dramatically change their stories collectively changing the most important details is unbelievable. The judge yesterday reminded Oscar Pretorius that he seemed to be altering his story to fit the akward questioning and tried to pin him down on specifics which when your lying is hard to do.
Apologies for spelling mistake!
I have always wondered why no photos were taken  of how the flat was found before everyone started traipsing through it.

.
Yes, especially photos of the "jemmied shutters" to show to the police what was witnessed in case they were accidentally lowered again by well-meaning friends.

We know they had cameras. There are pictures in the PJ files taken that night of a camera sitting on the dining table.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 11.04.14 20:33

Maybe pictures WERE taken

We do not know if the camera was sequestered and its contents made safe that evening
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 11.04.14 22:27

@canada12 wrote:

Yes, especially photos of the "jemmied shutters" to show to the police what was witnessed in case they were accidentally lowered again by well-meaning friends.

We know they had cameras. There are pictures in the PJ files taken that night of a camera sitting on the dining table.

Without wishing to appear to defend the McCanns et cie, Canada, I don't think it would be fair to blame them for not having the presence of mind to photograph a potential crime scene. After all, were you unfortunate enough to be the victim of a crime, would you be in the state of mind to take images of the scene, or would you call the police and consider it was their job to pictorially record the crime scene.

I'm sure at the time, the police took innumerable pics. of the apt. and surrounding areas for their records in the event of a future prosecution.


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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by aquila on 11.04.14 22:37

@diatribe wrote:Yes, especially photos of the "jemmied shutters" to show to the police what was witnessed in case they were accidentally lowered again by well-meaning friends.

We know they had cameras. There are pictures in the PJ files taken that night of a camera sitting on the dining table.

Without wishing to appear to defend the McCanns et cie, Canada, I don't think it would be fair to blame them for not having the presence of mind to photograph a potential crime scene. After all, were you unfortunate enough to be the victim of a crime, would you be in the state of mind to take images of the scene, or would you call the police and consider it was their job to pictorially record the crime scene.

I'm sure at the time, the police took innumerable pics. of the apt. and surrounding areas for their records in the event of a future prosecution.

[/quote]

........................................

sorry, the quote button isn't working again.

I agree with you diatribe about the photos but by the same token would you sit down at a table to write a time line?
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 11.04.14 22:51

@aquila wrote:

I agree with you diatribe about the photos but by the same token would you sit down at a table to write a time line?

No, I wouldn't, were it one of my dogs, I'd be frantically looking everywhere for him/her before he/she bit someone:)

But I get your drift, if they had the presence of mind to write a time line, it indicated that they weren't panic stricken. The events would still be crystal clear in their minds if they actually occurred, thereby negating the necessity to take notes. It would appear that they weren't writing a time line, they were creating one.

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by aquila on 11.04.14 23:21

@diatribe wrote:
@aquila wrote:

I agree with you diatribe about the photos but by the same token would you sit down at a table to write a time line?

No, I wouldn't, were it one of my dogs, I'd be frantically looking everywhere for him/her before he/she bit someone:)

But I get your drift, if they had the presence of mind to write a time line, it indicated that they weren't panic stricken. The events would still be crystal clear in their minds if they actually occurred, thereby negating the necessity to take notes. It would appear that they weren't writing a time line, they were creating one.
and so the first 'contemporaneous notes' were created...within a couple of hours of Madeleine's disappearance. Not one set but two.
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by whmon on 11.04.14 23:32

@diatribe wrote:
@aquila wrote:

I agree with you diatribe about the photos but by the same token would you sit down at a table to write a time line?

No, I wouldn't, were it one of my dogs, I'd be frantically looking everywhere for him/her before he/she bit someone:)

But I get your drift, if they had the presence of mind to write a time line, it indicated that they weren't panic stricken. The events would still be crystal clear in their minds if they actually occurred, thereby negating the necessity to take notes. It would appear that they weren't writing a time line, they were creating one.

Your dogs Diatribe - biting someone?

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by j.rob on 11.04.14 23:33

@diatribe wrote:
@canada12 wrote:

Yes, especially photos of the "jemmied shutters" to show to the police what was witnessed in case they were accidentally lowered again by well-meaning friends.

We know they had cameras. There are pictures in the PJ files taken that night of a camera sitting on the dining table.

Without wishing to appear to defend the McCanns et cie, Canada, I don't think it would be fair to blame them for not having the presence of mind to photograph a potential crime scene. After all, were you unfortunate enough to be the victim of a crime, would you be in the state of mind to take images of the scene, or would you call the police and consider it was their job to pictorially record the crime scene.

I'm sure at the time, the police took innumerable pics. of the apt. and surrounding areas for their records in the event of a future prosecution.


Yeah, right. You are SO full of it. So you think that the Mcs and their ghastly friends gave accurate witness accounts to the police, so you?? And how do you feel about Madeline - you know, an innocent four year old whose parents .....well, never mind

You have to be a lawyer........imo, obviously...lol!

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by j.rob on 11.04.14 23:49

@aquila wrote:
@diatribe wrote:Yes, especially photos of the "jemmied shutters" to show to the police what was witnessed in case they were accidentally lowered again by well-meaning friends.

We know they had cameras. There are pictures in the PJ files taken that night of a camera sitting on the dining table.

Without wishing to appear to defend the McCanns et cie, Canada, I don't think it would be fair to blame them for not having the presence of mind to photograph a potential crime scene. After all, were you unfortunate enough to be the victim of a crime, would you be in the state of mind to take images of the scene, or would you call the police and consider it was their job to pictorially record the crime scene.

I'm sure at the time, the police took innumerable pics. of the apt. and surrounding areas for their records in the event of a future prosecution.


........................................

sorry, the quote button isn't working again.

I agree with you diatribe about the photos but by the same token would you sit down at a table to write a time line?[/quote]

Oh the poor dear victimised McCanns- victims of a terrible crime......we will all weep.....

FOR MADELEINE...

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by Guest on 11.04.14 23:53

j.rob, tone it down a bit would you please......   Oh and please do not change peoples name to a derogatory meaning.  Thanks.
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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by j.rob on 11.04.14 23:54

Not sure what happened with the last post - gremlins seem to have appeared......I don't agree with diatribe about anything...at alll....

my perogative

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by j.rob on 11.04.14 23:58

candyfloss wrote:j.rob, tone it down a bit would you please......   Oh and please do not change peoples name to a derogatory meaning.  Thanks.

I didn't - I just wrote what I thought.......things get 'whooshed' here.....

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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 12.04.14 14:57

@j.rob wrote:.....I don't agree with diatribe about anything...at alll....

my perogative

Well Rob, that is indeed your 'perogative'(although I think you may have meant prerogative) I'm not surprised by the fact that you don't agree with anything I write, particularly in the vein that that you appear to be unable to comprehend my literary contributions.

Perhaps its because I tend to concentrate on clinical facts as opposed to wild conspiracy theories laden with emotion. BTW, If its any consolation, I experience similar difficulties with understanding the scrawlings of doctors and judges.

NB. With ref. to your 'things get whooshed here' revelation, in my case at least, you are preaching to the initiated.


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Re: Contemporaneous: the first recall

Post by diatribe on 12.04.14 23:32

@whmon wrote:
Your dogs Diatribe - biting someone?


THE HOOLIGANS.




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