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Game over?

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Re: Game over?

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 21.03.14 20:23

This is from the CdM thread:


Scotland Yard said the Judicial Police before launching today a new appeal in the media to find the responsible for a series of sexual assaults on children in the Algarve , said Friday Inspector Andy Redwood .

" My colleague , director [ Louis ] Mota Carmo , who is working on the delegation of Faro , fully understands the nature and extent of our investigation . I was in Portugal last Thursday, where I discussed our intentions in relation to this appeal through the media . Whatever we are doing is made in full and open with our Portuguese colleagues understanding, " said the detective , told Lusa .

Redwood , who heads since 2011 "Operation Grange ' , British police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in 2007 , said he traveled to Portugal to around 26 times for meetings of " strategic or tactical level. "

Redwood was in Portugal discussing his intentions about the appeal LAST THURSDAY.

Amaral's interview where he said that Scotland Yard believed that Maddie was dead was recorded the following day, LAST FRIDAY.

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Re: Game over?

Post by canada12 on 21.03.14 20:26

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:This is from the CdM thread:


Scotland Yard said the Judicial Police before launching today a new appeal in the media to find the responsible for a series of sexual assaults on children in the Algarve , said Friday Inspector Andy Redwood .

" My colleague , director [ Louis ] Mota Carmo , who is working on the delegation of Faro , fully understands the nature and extent of our investigation . I was in Portugal last Thursday, where I discussed our intentions in relation to this appeal through the media . Whatever we are doing is made in full and open with our Portuguese colleagues understanding, " said the detective , told Lusa .

Redwood , who heads since 2011 "Operation Grange ' , British police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in 2007 , said he traveled to Portugal to around 26 times for meetings of " strategic or tactical level. "

Redwood was in Portugal discussing his intentions about the appeal LAST THURSDAY.

Amaral's interview where he said that Scotland Yard believed that Maddie was dead was recorded the following day, LAST FRIDAY.


Worthy of repeating. Dr. Amaral indeed had inside information when he revealed in the interview that SY believed Madeleine was dead.

And now we know why.

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Re: Game over?

Post by View-from-Ireland on 21.03.14 20:35

Thanks Cristobell for your response, here's hoping you are right. My concern is that we always think things have changed, the cover-ups are over etc and then another one will emerge. It's a difficult point to make, but growing up in the late 1990s and early 2000s, I saw plenty of scandals/revelations and you assume things have changed as a result. Then you reach adulthood and the scandals/cover ups being revealed are from the time you thought 'things have changed'!

You won't find anything of interest in my posts. I read this thread every day but very rarely post. I just want to see Justice for Madeleine and find it deeply troubling that this case has evolved in the way that it has in that those who are the last witnesses (not to mention that their stories don't even come close to 'checking out') are seemingly not being treated as suspects or coming under any pressure to clarify the various inconsistencies. 

In a review, surely everything must be examined again and left open to possibility until the truth is revealed.

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Re: Game over?

Post by Casey5 on 21.03.14 20:41

The Daily Mail still will not print any posts that mention the dogs, I keep trying, I tried again today but to no avail. They print plenty of posts that slate the parents, even accuse the parents but they steer clear of the dogs. Strange I think; after all the dogs were British as was their handler.
Why doesn't Andy Redwood just STFU. He should be saying nothing publicly imo. 
If he feels that an update to Crimewatch is required then he should arrange for the presenters to do the talking, as they do in most other cases and keep out of it.
And now David (call me Dave) Cameron threatens to have a word with the Portuguese if SY request him to.
And there's Kerry Needham being totally ignored as usual. No Prime Minister assurance of help, no colossal amounts of money given, no team of Scotland Yard's finest at the ready. Why the difference I bet she wonders.

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Re: Game over?

Post by Hobs on 21.03.14 21:09

dantezebu wrote:Have faith guys
I have it on good authority that in his press conference AR actually said:

"One assertion is that when she left apartment G5a, she was alive. That is only one way which she could have left the apartment. Of course we hope beyond hope that that is the case - and in fact within that, sits the possibility she is still alive, that we just cannot prove is not the case.  But on the other side of it, there is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive and what is important for us to do in consider all the options."

AND

 "may not follow with all our thinking"  was said in relation to the adbuction.

So he publicly has cast doubt on the abduction, that is a first.


Hi honey do you have the full exact quote?
Also what was asked/ said before he did the may not follow with all out thinking statement please/

Thanks in advance

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Re: Game over?

Post by Guest on 21.03.14 21:20

@Hobs wrote:
dantezebu wrote:Have faith guys
I have it on good authority that in his press conference AR actually said:

"One assertion is that when she left apartment G5a, she was alive. That is only one way which she could have left the apartment. Of course we hope beyond hope that that is the case - and in fact within that, sits the possibility she is still alive, that we just cannot prove is not the case.  But on the other side of it, there is always the potential that she didn't leave the apartment alive and what is important for us to do in consider all the options."

AND

 "may not follow with all our thinking"  was said in relation to the adbuction.

So he publicly has cast doubt on the abduction, that is a first.


Hi honey do you have the full exact quote?
Also what was asked/ said before he did the may not follow with all out thinking statement please/

Thanks in advance

sending you pm Hobs

ETA apparently that is the full exact quote taken from a transcrpt of the press conference.
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Guardian Correction

Post by Guest on 21.03.14 22:55



The Guardian have corrected their article:
"An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/mar/21/corrections-and-clarifications
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Re: Game over?

Post by russiandoll on 21.03.14 23:02

Bloody hell. So in a nutshell, we still have doubts re abduction.

  Plus doubts about alive when moved.

 What has changed here?

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Re: Game over?

Post by Cristobell on 21.03.14 23:07

dantezebu wrote:

The Guardian have corrected their article:
"An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/mar/21/corrections-and-clarifications
LOL they are watching us dissecting it on here, or the McCanns have Carter Rucked the Guardian to find a euphemistic word for death.  They have followed the DCI's lead by throwing in 'as well as the possibility that she was'.

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Re: Game over?

Post by Searcher on 21.03.14 23:14

Would anyone know on what grounds, legally, the alleged evidence (however partial) that is clearly logged, including the evidence of the dogs, and dna traces, can be left out of SY investigation?  Or at least, so it seems.

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Re: Game over?

Post by Doug D on 22.03.14 1:00

Nice to see that the Guardian at least gets their priorities right, rhubarb at the top of the list!
 
Corrections and clarifications
Rhubarb recipes | Ron Goodwin | Irish novelists | Hilary Benn's constituency | Labour market statistics | Britain's credit ratings | Madeleine McCann investigation
 
• An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was.
 
The article referenced above hyperlinks to Version 3, timed at 21.03.
 
To see what this actually changes I refer back to my post on CW Update thread of 10.30pm March 20th, where the Guardian changed the story three times during the day.
 
Version 1, 11.43
"While I completely accept that there are differences (between the break-ins and the McCann case), there is no abduction that we can see, (I think he is talking about smelly binman here) but the assumption from that is that Madeleine McCann has been abducted. That may not necessarily follow with all our thinking about what may have become of Madeleine McCann. (therefore thinking that not abducted)
 
Version 2, 11.43
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that Madeleine had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007.
………….
Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. (therefore thinking not alive)
 
Version 3, 21.03
Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, in charge of the hunt for Madeleine, accepted there were differences between these cases and that of Madeleine's disappearance but added that there was a possibility that she had not left her family's holiday apartment alive when she disappeared in May 2007. (same as ‘second’ 11.43)
……………..
Redwood said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment  (italics have been added)
"may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.
…………………….
 
So the Guardian are now reverting back to Version 1, bringing back the ‘a’ word, but with the ‘may not necessarily follow with all our thinking’ proviso, but then adding the possible death in 5A scenario to the story.
 
Dantezebu was pressing the Guardian yesterday for an explanation as to why they had whooshed the first story, but I don’t believe he got one, although he did get clarification of what was actually said.
 
So whilst they have made a technical correction to a story that was seemingly reported correctly in the first place (why did they change it then?) the ‘thinking’ still seems to be that M. may not have been abducted and that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was’.
 
If this latest correction/clarification is down to CR or CM influence, it ranks alongside the Sunday Times’ recent apology regarding the withholding of evidence in that it doesn’t actually change anything.
 
I suggested yesterday that maybe they objected to doubt being thrown on abduction (which has always been the mainstay of their story) and got Redwood to change or clarify what he said, but that surely the suggestion that she may not have been alive when she left the apartment, from TM’s viewpoint, must have been a far less acceptable scenario. 
 Now that the story has been re-vamped again TM seem to have ended up with the worst of all worlds, maybe no abduction and also possible death in 5A.
 

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Re: Game over?

Post by Mirage on 22.03.14 1:36

Looking right across comments online, Operation Grange is being pilloried. How much more of this ridicule can SY withstand before something has to give. It must get to them daily. The jokes that are flying around are merciless and extremely damaging to Britain's image.There are many foreigners commenting too.  I guarantee that if Cameron follows his stated intention to blunder into this farce it will be political suicide. He will never rid himself of the taint.

It's not as if this is a one-off policing gaff where the hilarity dies down and the story becomes yesterday's news. This baby is rolling.

The grand plan to eliminate the rest of the world before they knuckle down to dissecting the inconsistencies in the T9 statements will never work. And they know it.

There isn't a Plan B. Only Plan A. Goncalo Amaral had it bang on about political courage. It's never too late to do the right thing. Doing the wrong thing will lead to a crisis.

I personally don't see SY have much choice. They are up a gum tree.

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Re: Game over?

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.03.14 7:15

@Mirage wrote:Looking right across comments online, Operation Grange is being pilloried. How much more of this ridicule can SY withstand before something has to give. It must get to them daily. The jokes that are flying around are merciless and extremely damaging to Britain's image.There are many foreigners commenting too.  I guarantee that if Cameron follows his stated intention to blunder into this farce it will be political suicide. He will never rid himself of the taint.
Agreed that there is an increasing swell of adverse comments about Operation Grange, and that the whole operation ultimately risks gravely undermining the reputation of the Met Police, already tattered. But because of one of the slickest and most successful PR exercises ever undertaken, most people in the UK accept the abduction story, most people in Britain accept that the Portuguese police bungled big-time, and most people still have sympathy for the McCanns and believe there is an abductor out there waiting to be found - by SY!  Therefore, on balance, I think Cameron will get credit for 'offering to help'.

The Guardian 'correction' is deeply fascinating.

Redwood is a man who trades in official jargon, obfuscation and impenetrable platitudes. There is more than a hint of buffoonery about him:

"I will draw eveything back to zero"

"It was a revelation moment"

"It may not follow with our thinking".

We often have to work out what he is really saying.

As has been noted above, when the Guardian said this:

 "An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."

...there is therefore absolutely no doubt about what Redwood was saying through his obscure wording:

1. Madeleine might not have been abducted

and

2. When Madeleine was 'taken from the apartment', she might have been dead.

To my mind it is a leading question as to whether Redwood actually meant to say that, or whether that was (for him and the Met) the unfortunate result of his obfuscatory way of speaking.

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Re: Game over?

Post by Doug D on 22.03.14 8:22

TB
‘To my mind it is a leading question as to whether Redwood actually meant to say that, or whether that was (for him and the Met) the unfortunate result of his obfuscatory way of speaking’.
 
The trouble is he has said it and it’s on record, without an immediate retraction, which to my mind suggests it was not a gaff, but a deliberately considered addition to the Met Police Press release & subsequent addition following the Press Briefing.
 
Looking back at the ‘official’ Press Release & addition, none of this is included, with the only reference being ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance’, other than the reward bit, which has been a constant and is where the only mention of abduction comes.
 
So was Redwood speaking completely out of turn, which would surely have led to a further Met ‘clarification', (his 'get out of jail nearly free' card? censure, disciplinary, taken off case) or was he was throwing out something he felt needed to be said, leading to a ‘word in your ear’ from above but no more? The first signs of enjoyment we have seen in his face during the second part of his statement lead me to feel the latter to be the case.
 
I like to think that he is now backing himself, deliberately, further & further into the corner, the evidence of the dogs will then be looked at again, the timeline again redrawn & the obvious conclusions will then come to the front.
 
Fingers still crossed.
 

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Re: Game over?

Post by Guest on 22.03.14 8:53

@Doug D wrote:TB
‘To my mind it is a leading question as to whether Redwood actually meant to say that, or whether that was (for him and the Met) the unfortunate result of his obfuscatory way of speaking’.
 
The trouble is he has said it and it’s on record, without an immediate retraction, which to my mind suggests it was not a gaff, but a deliberately considered addition to the Met Police Press release & subsequent addition following the Press Briefing.
 
Looking back at the ‘official’ Press Release & addition, none of this is included, with the only reference being ascertain whether these offences are linked to Madeleine's disappearance’, other than the reward bit, which has been a constant and is where the only mention of abduction comes.
 
So was Redwood speaking completely out of turn, which would surely have led to a further Met ‘clarification', (his 'get out of jail nearly free' card? censure, disciplinary, taken off case) or was he was throwing out something he felt needed to be said, leading to a ‘word in your ear’ from above but no more? The first signs of enjoyment we have seen in his face during the second part of his statement lead me to feel the latter to be the case.
 
I like to think that he is now backing himself, deliberately, further & further into the corner, the evidence of the dogs will then be looked at again, the timeline again redrawn & the obvious conclusions will then come to the front.
 
Fingers still crossed.
 

Yeah, good post. That was almost exactly what I was trying to say yesterday when I said that there was a cover up but I wasn't sure if Redwood was inside looking out, or vice versa. Only time will tell I suppose, although he's certainly had plenty.
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Re: Game over?

Post by Guest on 22.03.14 10:10

@Mirage wrote:Looking right across comments online, Operation Grange is being pilloried. How much more of this ridicule can SY withstand before something has to give. It must get to them daily. The jokes that are flying around are merciless and extremely damaging to Britain's image.There are many foreigners commenting too.  I guarantee that if Cameron follows his stated intention to blunder into this farce it will be political suicide. He will never rid himself of the taint.

It's not as if this is a one-off policing gaff where the hilarity dies down and the story becomes yesterday's news. This baby is rolling.

The grand plan to eliminate the rest of the world before they knuckle down to dissecting the inconsistencies in the T9 statements will never work. And they know it.

There isn't a Plan B. Only Plan A. Goncalo Amaral had it bang on about political courage. It's never too late to do the right thing. Doing the wrong thing will lead to a crisis.

I personally don't see SY have much choice. They are up a gum tree.

That's first class thinking
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Re: Game over?

Post by Rasputin on 22.03.14 11:58

Mirage I couldn't agree more , one thing niggles me though...given that a lot of public figures have jumped off the McCanns like fleas off a dead cat ...why is Cameron jumping on ?...is he " in the know " from his friends in media ?

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Re: Game over?

Post by Mirage on 22.03.14 12:11

@Rasputin wrote:Mirage I couldn't agree more , one thing niggles me though...given that a lot of public figures have jumped off the McCanns like fleas off a dead cat ...why is Cameron jumping on ?...is he  " in the know " from his friends in media ?

Rasputin, my dear, I want you to return your thoughts to your homeland. To Moscow maybe. To a little walk through Gorky Park.  thinking 

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Re: Game over?

Post by notlongnow on 22.03.14 12:15

Surely doing these cw appeals and cameron walking straight into a head on car crash is only getting more people to scratch the surface and see what is going on?

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Re: Game over?

Post by Guest on 22.03.14 12:46

dantezebu wrote:

The Guardian have corrected their article:
"An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/mar/21/corrections-and-clarifications

More of a reiteration than a correction. Certainly a clarification. I'm encouraged by this, and also by the observation that the utterence was made last Friday, before the gate-crashing of Crimewatch was conceived. Something's happened in between.

Still can't decide if Redwood's words were a deliberate statement or ill-judged gaff, though.
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Re: Game over?

Post by Cristobell on 22.03.14 13:18

Dee Coy wrote:
dantezebu wrote:

The Guardian have corrected their article:
"An article about police investigations into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Portugal in 2007 (Madeleine police hunt serial sex attacker who prowled Algarve, 20 March, page 3) said Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case. To clarify: those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was."

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2014/mar/21/corrections-and-clarifications

More of a reiteration than a correction. Certainly a clarification.  I'm encouraged by this, and also by the observation that the utterence was made last Friday, before the gate-crashing of Crimewatch was conceived. Something's happened in between.

Still can't decide if Redwood's words were a deliberate statement or ill-judged gaff, though.
In DCI Redwood mentioning death, there is no way now that the abduction story can be maintained, no matter how many odd bods and weirdos they put on the table.  Its been SEVEN years and the case of missing Madeleine has been investigated by hundreds of professional and unprofessional detectives, and not one of them has come up with anything in the slightest bit credible.  

I really do not know why we are rearranging the DCI's words so they come out in favour of the McCanns, the message was very clear and even the dumbass pros picked up on it.  There was no more McCanns and their friends are not suspects, and there were no pleas for a live Madeleine, the picture that dominated the latest CW program was the toddler in her Christmas party frock, not an aged progressed ten year old.  Scotland Yard clearly do not believe Madeleine is alive, and worse, from the McCanns' perspective, they think she died in the apartment.

The negativity here is understandable, we have been flabbergasted so many times before by the unbelievable directions this case has taken, and there can be no doubt that were was political interference.  However, I feel that the political interference was brought about by the very powerful and effective Team McCann Pressure Group, who were probably using thumbscrews, blackmail and God know what other devices to get people to do what they wanted.  Remember we have only seen the public face of Team McCann, the private one is carefully guarded, and if the delightful people who represent them on social media are anything to go by, there is a very murky underbelly here, and lets hope those particular charmers are among DCI Redwood's suspects.

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Re: Game over?

Post by j.rob on 22.03.14 13:26

I wonder if the McCann's hilarity at the press conference when the age-progressed picture of Madeleine was shown served to put one of the final nails in their coffin, as it were. Gerry was unable to keep a straight face when asked about the choice of Madeleine's hair style, imo. Kate too, suppressed what looked suspiciously like a giggle. And then, in that hideously glib and unemotional (or faked emotions) voice of hers, makes some kind of dismissive remark about how they really wouldn't know what Madeleine would look like now, imo. There was zero sincerity in what she said or how she said it, imo.

It looked like they were both enjoying playing 'their game' and when the fake masks slipped, their truly grotesque charade was revealed for the whole world to see, imo.

Utterly repulsive.

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Re: Game over?

Post by ultimaThule on 22.03.14 13:29

@notlongnow wrote:Surely doing these cw appeals and cameron walking straight into a head on car crash is only getting more people to scratch the surface and see what is going on?
For all that the majority of members of this forum are firmly convinced that the couple are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter, a significant percentage of the population believe that they may be, or are, innocent victims and, while this view prevails, the McCanns and their team of paid 'reputation management' experts remain able to exploit the gullible and cause the confusion which favoured them in 2007 and has continued to do so until the present day

Having given this matter considerable thought, I am of the view that the various Crimewatch shows and appeals have served as something of a consciousness raising exercise and I trust that, should he make 'further representations' to the Protuguese government, Cameron will be able to effect a speedy conclusion to this case.
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Re: Game over?

Post by Cristobell on 22.03.14 13:40

@ultimaThule wrote:
@notlongnow wrote:Surely doing these cw appeals and cameron walking straight into a head on car crash is only getting more people to scratch the surface and see what is going on?
For all that the majority of members of this forum are firmly convinced that the couple are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter, a significant percentage of the population believe that they may be, or are, innocent victims and, while this view prevails, the McCanns and their team of paid 'reputation management' experts remain able to exploit the gullible and cause the confusion which favoured them in 2007 and has continued to do so until the present day

Having given this matter considerable thought, I am of the view that the various Crimewatch shows and appeals have served as something of a consciousness raising exercise and I trust that, should he make 'further representations' to the Protuguese government, Cameron will be able to effect a speedy conclusion to this case.
Cameron would be an idiot if he did not make political capital out of this case.  He is facing an election next year, and he can't go into it having thrown away £10m (probably will have reached that by 2015) of taxpayers money to clear a couple of doctors who most of the country believe are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter.

If however, Operation Grange brings the correct people to justice, and reveals faults within the previous administration, Cameron will be the hero.  I don't think he will wait until next year, he will have more pressing matters. a result before the 7th anniversary however, would make the timing about right.

Cristobell

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Re: Game over?

Post by noddy100 on 22.03.14 13:42

It would have been perfectly easy for AR to refer to death in terms of the abduction ie that they may have to accept that whoever took the little girl may well have killed her 
But he actually chose to refer to not being alive BEFORE she left 5A and there must be a reason for that as it sure as hell makes his life more difficult to go
down that road than the other.

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