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In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by AndyB on 06.03.14 14:25

diatribe wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.
There aren't many I grant you but this a recent high profile example http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/royal-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder


I'm not certain here, Andy, but wouldn't this constitute some kind of war crime. As we know, war crimes can be dealt with outside of the territory where they occurred, usually in the Hague which can reside anywhere. The americans have held some of their military personnel accountable in the US, whereas they would not normally be able to do so in the case of civilian crimes committed outside of their jurisdiction.

I don't think in any event that the case you have cited could in any way be compared to that of the McCanns. Its apples and oranges.
He was tried in the UK for a murder committed abroad. The OP asked for an example of where a British national was tried for a crime committed abroad and that's what I was giving. I agree its not very relevant to the Madeleine McCann mystery, although I'm sure there are some around here who believe the Madeleine was murdered

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on 06.03.14 14:41

AndyB wrote:

He was tried in the UK for a murder committed abroad. The OP asked for an example of where a British national was tried for a crime committed abroad and that's what I was giving. I agree its not very relevant to the Madeleine McCann mystery, although I'm sure there are some around here who believe the Madeleine was murdered
I appreciate you were merely providing an example and my reply was not intended to be a critique. I was merely interested in whether or not the case you quoted constituted some kind of war crime. Another interesting point might be, when the offence was committed, was it in a British controlled zone thereby technically bringing it within British jurisdiction?

Having been in the fortunate position of missing conscription by a number of yrs. I know little or nothing regarding military matters and even less of their legal procedures. All I do know is that my principles would constrain me from ever bearing arms for a country which denied me the right of private gun ownership.

NB, I am not of the belief that Madeleine was deliberately murdered by her parents.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 15:02

Cristobell wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:[
Could you please explain why, if crimes against Madeleine McCann are suspected of being committed by British nationals, 'the British can't try a crime that has been committed in Portugal', Cristobell,  and also why Amanda Knox could not 'have been tried in the USA for the murder she committed in Italy'?
Goodness, where do I begin.  All countries have borders Ultima and the responsibility to govern and protect all the people within those borders lies with their individual governments.  Each country is responsible for its own law and order, Portugal has no jurisdiction in the UK and the UK has no jurisdiction in Portugal.  One country cannot overrule another country's laws, just because they are bigger or richer or both.  

The idea that a criminal trial relating to the disappearance of Madeleine could be held in the UK is ridiculous imo - are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?  All the staff from Warners, the Tapas Bar and the police who were first to attend the scene?

To be fair, I think its you who needs to convince me a trial in the UK is possible, because even with the wildest stretch of the imagination, I just don't see it.
are you suggesting the UK will host a trial and fly over all the witnesses from Portugal to testify?

Yes I am, Cristobell, and, having quoted the relevant statute and cited case law, I would appreciate it if you would kindly explain why it is beyond your wildest stretch of the imagination when the remit of Operation Grange, together with the activities of the CPS and other signs which will not have escaped the attention of those who are accustomed to seeing the bigger picture, give every indication that, should they be British nationals, those suspected of committing heinous crimes against Madeleine McCann will be brought to justice in the UK.

Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.  

The crime was committed in Portugal and investigated by the Portuguese, and indeed, things have moved on so far, that the Portuguese investigation has been re-opened.  Are you suggesting that SY can 'nick' the entire case from them and relocate it to a British court?  Seriously?  This case is highly political and I don't think the Portuguese are the pussycats you seem to think they are.  Portugal is not a third world country, and the British no longer have an empire.  

In addition, can you please provide explanation as to why Amanda Knox was not tried in the USA for a murder she committed in Italy?
Err, the murder was committed in Italy!  It needs no more explanation than that.  Perhaps you could provide an explanation as to why the crime should have been tried in the USA?

If you will do me the courtesy of reading any of my many posts on this topic, you will see that I have not at any time suggested 'SY can nick the entire case' from the Portuguese, Cristobell.

It is precisely because the Portuguese have re-opened their investigation together with the fact that both NSY and the CPS are working in close co-operation with their counterparts in Portugal which has lead me to suspect that negotiations are underway to avoid the necessity of two trials in respect of two different crimes which took place in two different countries should it transpire that the alleged perpetrators of both crimes are British nationals,

If you read my previous posts on other threads you will see I have frequently cited the landmark case of Surjit Athwal which has some parallel in that the victim disappeared overseas, her body has not been recovered, but, nevertheless, her husband and her mother-in-law were brought to trial for her murder, convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment with tariffs of 27 and 20 years respectively at the Old Bailey. R v Athwal and Athwal (2007).

On appeal these terms were terms were reduced, to the best of my recollection, to 17 and 20 years and the ruling paved the way for hearsay evidence to be heard in criminal cases. R v Athwal & another (2009)

Should anyone be in any doubt as to modern day relevance of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in respect of those British nationals who commit murder and/or manslaughter abroad, I further cite the case of R v Cheong (2006).  

With regard to your 'Err, the murder was committed in Italy!  It needs no more explanation than that.' as the USA has on its statute books more offences than possibly the member states of the EU combined in which it exercises jurisdiction in respect of crimes committed by its citizens overseas, more explanation is required than 'the murder was committed in Italy'.

As I do not maintain that Knox should have been tried in the USA, I look to you to provide explanation as to why the USA did not exercise its jurisdictional right in this matter.

While writing I
would greatly appreciate it if you would avoid ascribing thoughts to me which I do not hold, nor have I ever held. Ftr IMO the PJ, and Dr Amaral in particuar, have acted as lions in comparison with those lily livered politicians of both countries who denied justice to a 3 year old child when they elected to allow the McCanns to return from Portugal with questions left unanswered.

Furthermore, I am a great admirer of the Portuguese people and I am blessed in having some of them as my friends.  Far from believing Portugal is a third world country, my trips to its capital and its towns and villages have convinced me that the Portugal is more effectively organised and governed than many other European countries, including the one I currently find myself residing in, and I am firmly of the opinion that the Portuguese know how to live and celebrate life with gusto, a quality which was lost to the English when Charles I lost his head.

As for the British no longer having an empire; hurrah for that.  When asked 'What do you think of Western civilisation', Gandhi replied 'I think would be a good idea' and in my mind I've always substituted 'British' for Western which may provide some clue as to my contempt for the type of xenophobia exhibited by the UK MSM towards the Portuguese in this case.
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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on 06.03.14 15:40

ultimaThule



If you read my previous posts on other threads you will see I have frequently cited the landmark case of Surjit Athwal which has some parallel in that the victim disappeared overseas, her body has not been recovered, but, nevertheless, her husband and her mother-in-law were brought to trial for her murder, convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment with tariffs of 27 and 20 years respectively at the Old Bailey. R v Athwal and Athwal (2007).

On appeal these terms were terms were reduced, to the best of my recollection, to 17 and 20 years and the ruling paved the way for hearsay evidence to be heard in criminal cases. R v Athwal & another (2009)


 You have indeed incessantly referred to this case, but it still doesn't alter the fact that this case emanated in the UK with a conspiracy to murder the victim abroad, hence it falling within the jurisdiction of the British justice system.

https://learning.uonbi.ac.ke/courses/GPR201/document/Selected_Cases/R_v_Athwal_&_Another.pdf

Furthermore, it bears no relation to the Offences against the Persons Act 1861.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by AndyB on 06.03.14 15:43

diatribe wrote:
AndyB wrote:
He was tried in the UK for a murder committed abroad. The OP asked for an example of where a British national was tried for a crime committed abroad and that's what I was giving. I agree its not very relevant to the Madeleine McCann mystery, although I'm sure there are some around here who believe the Madeleine was murdered
I appreciate you were merely providing an example and my reply was not intended to be a critique. I was merely interested in whether or not the case you quoted constituted some kind of war crime. Another interesting point might be, when the offence was committed, was it in a British controlled zone thereby technically bringing it within British jurisdiction?
I didn't take it as a critique but I lack the legal expertise to answer your questions with any sort of conviction, which is why I ignored them the first time :-)

For what its worth, I don't think it constitutes a war crime because, had it done so, he would, as you suggest, have been tried at the Hague. I also don't think that the fact it was a British controlled zone is relevant; it was still a foreign country but I'm happy to be gainsaid on either by someone with better knowledge

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 16:15

diatribe wrote:ultimaThule



If you read my previous posts on other threads you will see I have frequently cited the landmark case of Surjit Athwal which has some parallel in that the victim disappeared overseas, her body has not been recovered, but, nevertheless, her husband and her mother-in-law were brought to trial for her murder, convicted, and sentenced to life imprisonment with tariffs of 27 and 20 years respectively at the Old Bailey. R v Athwal and Athwal (2007).

On appeal these terms were terms were reduced, to the best of my recollection, to 17 and 20 years and the ruling paved the way for hearsay evidence to be heard in criminal cases. R v Athwal & another (2009)


 You have indeed incessantly referred to this case, but it still doesn't alter the fact that this case emanated in the UK with a conspiracy to murder the victim abroad, hence it falling within the jurisdiction of the British justice system.

https://learning.uonbi.ac.ke/courses/GPR201/document/Selected_Cases/R_v_Athwal_&_Another.pdf

Furthermore, it bears no relation to the Offences against the Persons Act 1861.




'The defendants, a mother and her son, were charged with the murder of the second defendants wife in December 1998.  The prosecution case was that they had lured the victim to India, accompanied by the first defendant, and that she was murdered there'

You appear to have overlooked the fact that the defendants were not charged with conspiracy to murder; despite the fact that there was no body and no forensic evidence to link them to the crime, the Athwals were charged with murder - a crime which was committed in India by British nationals and which is contrary to Section 9 of the Offences Against the Person Act. 1861.
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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on 06.03.14 16:21

I appreciate your candour, although it may be that the Hague only deals with more serious matters relating to those higher up the chain of command, ie. Milosevic et al.

I do however believe that our colonial cousins across the Atlantic dealt with a number of their military personnel involved with the maltreatment of prisoners in Iraq within the US justice system.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on 06.03.14 16:32

ultimaThule wrote:




'The defendants, a mother and her son, were charged with the murder of the second defendants wife in December 1998.  The prosecution case was that they had lured the victim to India, accompanied by the first defendant, and that she was murdered there'

You appear to have overlooked the fact that the defendants were not charged with conspiracy to murder; despite the fact that there was no body and no forensic evidence to link them to the crime, the Athwals were charged with murder - a crime which was committed in India by British nationals and which is contrary to Section 9 of the Offences Against the Person Act. 1861.

I didn't state that they were charged with conspiracy to murder and I'm not contesting the fact that there was no body or forensic evidence. The only evidence against them appears to have come from a family member who was privy to a plot to murder the victim in the kitchen of their Slough abode. I believe that a life insurance policy had also been taken out in the UK prior to the victim's departure for India.

Its irrelevant where and what occurred thereafter, because the crime had been plotted within the jurisdiction of the UK, thereby negating the need to implement The offences against the Person Act 1861. You may be on stronger ground with your other example.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 16:43

On a point of information, the Armed Forces Act 2006 sets out offences against service law and associated punishments. 

Criminal conduct offences are acts done anywhere in the world which, if done in England & Wales, would be against civilian criminal law.
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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 16:52

On the premise that you are correct, diatribe, there will be no need for the courts of England/Wales to excercise jurisdiction in this matter should either NSY or the PJ discover circumstantial or hearsay evidence to the effect that, as has long been suspected by various members of this forum, crimes against Madeleine McCann were plotted in the UK.
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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on 06.03.14 17:04

AndyB wrote:
Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.
There aren't many I grant you but this a recent high profile example http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/royal-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder


I've not read the article, but are we now comparing the Portuguese Government to the Taliban?  nah 

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by diatribe on 06.03.14 17:15

ultimaThule wrote:On the premise that you are correct, diatribe, there will be no need for the courts of England/Wales to excercise jurisdiction in this matter should either NSY or the PJ discover circumstantial or hearsay evidence to the effect that, as has long been suspected by various members of this forum, crimes against Madeleine McCann were plotted in the UK.

Well, Ultima, lets hope there is such evidence, but I think the best hope of a prosecution is reliant upon the breaking down of Catriona Baker's deposition and the finding of Madeleine's remains.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 17:35

Cristobell wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Perhaps you could just cite one case where a British national has been tried for a crime committed in another country, I can't think of any.
There aren't many I grant you but this a recent high profile example http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/06/royal-marine-blackman-10-years-jail-taliban-murder


I've not read the article, but are we now comparing the Portuguese Government to the Taliban?  nah 
May I suggest you get up to speed with previous posts on this thead, and either amend or delete this one before others leap to the same erroneous conclusion, Cristobell?
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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.03.14 17:54

diatribe wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:On the premise that you are correct, diatribe, there will be no need for the courts of England/Wales to excercise jurisdiction in this matter should either NSY or the PJ discover circumstantial or hearsay evidence to the effect that, as has long been suspected by various members of this forum, crimes against Madeleine McCann were plotted in the UK.

Well, Ultima, lets hope there is such evidence, but I think the best hope of a prosecution is reliant upon the breaking down of Catriona Baker's deposition and the finding of Madeleine's remains.
I suspect that what remains of Madeleine McCann's tiny body will contine to lie in unconsecrated ground until there is nothing to be found but, nevertheless, that is no bar to prosecution and IMO there is an embarrassingly large amount of circumstantial evidence which can be used to substantiate charges being brought if not now, then in the very near future. 

It's to be hoped the heat that's on the Met will spur those officers deployed on Operation Grange to pull a redeeming rabbit out of the hat otherwise the force may find its budget cut -  the NSY building is being sold off, the Met's new headquarters are located south of the river, and the move will present a, some would say 'golden', opporunity for a reduction in personnel or a division between inner and outer, or north and south, London policing with a consequent reduction in power for those at the top of the greasy pole.
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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Cristobell on 06.03.14 18:15

I have never studied law Ultima because imo, it just boils down to people citing previous cases at one another. It all becomes very tedious. Agree, I did ask you to cite a case, and that was naughty of me, but it had little relevance to the subject we are discussing and I had hoped you would come up with a famous or infamous one.  

The problem with laws, lies in the fact that they are always open to challenge and change.  Each new ruling will supercede the one that has gone before and it will last until the next one comes along.  No two sets of circumstances are exactly the same, particularly in complex cases where the pride of nations is at stake.  

From a political perspective, the idea of moving the trial from Portugal to the UK will, or at least should, cause an outcry, that is if Portugal would allow it.  There are too many discrepancies in the abduction story for anyone to believe an innocent verdict from a British court and the UK would be discredited along with the McCanns.

I am sure the McCanns would press for a UK trial if given the option - they are already comparing Portugal to 'Midnight Express'.  A picture of Leonor Cipriano's brutalised face, was produced several years ago, to give the impression that, the fragrant Kate faced similar savagery whilst under interrogation.  They are Masters of The Game, and it doesn't do to underestimate them.

A trial in Portugal would mean a sentence in a Portuguese prison.  A trial in the UK would mean a sentence in a British prison, maybe even an open one where they could continue running.  The wider agenda must have had contingency plans, and never returning to Portugal if the tide turned was probably amongst them.  The McCanns have sealed themselves up so tightly in that safey vacuum of theirs, that extraditing them to Portugal may well be impossible, in which case a trial in the UK may be the only option, though I think it may only relate to the crimes committed in the UK, that is the Fund and everything that sprung from it.  

The Portuguese may go ahead with a trial, even in the absence of the Defendants, if we go by the most recent trial of Amanda Knox.  She wasn't there!  The Portuguese police have re-opened the investigation with a view to finishing what was started 7 years ago (like Jumanji) and an investigation concludes with people being charged, followed by a trial.  The AG would not have given the go ahead for the investigation to re-open if a (speedy) conclusion was not a possibility.  Portugal are not in a financial position to fund a long drawn out investigation that will lead nowhere.  Nor too, the UK!

Lets put the law aside and be realistic for one moment Ultima.  In order for the trial to be transferred to the UK, it will have to be agreed (and presumably funded) by the Portuguese AG.  Up until now the British [media] have portrayed the Portuguese police and judiciary as bungling fools.  Why then would they agree to the trial being heard in a British Court with a British Jury?  And of course official confirmation, rubber stamped, that they are bungling, corrupt and can't investigate for toffees.  

It may be at the outset that only the British were going to do a Review, and indeed an investigation.  At the time they were given instructions by David Cameron no-one was searching for Madeleine (other than the parents) and the McCanns had enough political thump to push for that Review through their best buddy Rebekah Brookes, who wasn't in it to sell more newspapers, but purely for philanthropic reasons.  So too, her boss Rupert.

As has often been said, it was one of those 'be careful what you wish for moments' for the McCanns.  However, as long as it was only the British reviewing the case, they were home and dry, particularly if any trial could be transferred to the UK, where the sympathetic anglo saxons would believe them over the sardine muncher who takes long, boozy lunches. Maybe at that time no-one knew the Portuguese were undertaking a Review of their own, I think that information came to us via Goncalo Amaral, under the head 'doesn't look good for the McCanns'.  I haven't yet establish who started their Review first, the PJ or SY, and if anyone knows, it would be appreciated, as one may have instigated the other.

Before there was any physical action from the Portuguese, a whitewash may have been possible.  A trial in the UK may even have become a reality, on the basis that the Portuguese didn't appear to give two hoots about it, but now that the Portuguese investigation is live, the argument is moot.

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Re: In reality will justice be done as to the Madeleine case?

Post by Guest on 07.03.14 9:20

Would the following be possible under UK & Portuguese law?

SY investigate the fund, they have evidence that the McCanns have always known about Madeleine's death. The McCanns are prosecuted for fraud and possibly money laundering. The sheer scope of the fraud (the number of people defrauded, the total amount and the length of time they were committing fraud) should guarantee a prison term.

The Portuguese then hold a trial for whatever their investigation indicates happened to Madeleine. The defendants get prison escorts to Lisbon to attend this trial or, if either or both refuse to attend, they are tried in their absence.

The McCanns could be extradited on their release from prison but that would involve a lot of legal wrangling so Portugal agrees that the McCanns can serve their sentences in the UK. The pair are already in prison so the additional years are tacked on their existing terms.

I know very little about the law in the UK and nothing about the law in Portugal but, from a common sense point of view, this seems to me to be the most straightforward way of ensuring that all the McCanns' victims get justice.
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