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Getting back to the Sea Bass

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by PeterMac on 02.02.15 13:44

@LombardySkeptik wrote:Indeed the corpse attendance by Kate (and CuddleCat) is possibly one of the most bizzare 'qualifiers' to emerge from Camp McCann at that or indeed anytime 
"methinks they doth explain to much" so to speak

And it goes into the long list of things which they have NEVER - so far as I am aware, sought to correct, or to resile from

Like the official "Hellish Lair in the Lawless Hinterland within 10 miles of PdL"  so beloved of Edgar AND MITCHELL
Like the "She will be back by Christmas", which they officially denied had ever been said, even through their lying lawyers, until in her book Kate admitted that it HAD been said
Like the "Fund" being used "mostly for Legal expenses"
Like the curtains being "wide open" AND "tight closed" - ( only one of which, surely can be true, and the other MUST be a LIE / Mistake / error )
Like Gerry saying it was a "hot" evening, but everyone else, including the Met.office saying it was "freezing cold."

Then there is a list of things they have tried to correct as they became obvious lies / mistakes / errors
"Broken and smashed" shutters, turned into "open shutters' and then turned into a "Red Herring"

But as someone once said, confusion is good.

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 02.02.15 15:25

One thing that's always puzzled me with the sea bass tale, just how widely available is sea bass in the fishmongers of the Algarve. Sardines, sword fish, tuna, bacalhau, hake, dorado etc are plentiful, but sea bass? Has anyone looked into this?
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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by LombardySkeptik on 02.02.15 16:50

@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:One thing that's always puzzled me with the sea bass tale, just how widely available is sea bass in the fishmongers of the Algarve. Sardines, sword fish, tuna, bacalhau, hake, dorado etc are plentiful, but sea bass? Has anyone looked into this?

Its actually quite common, though less so than others such as tuna & sardines

However, it is certainly the most common cadaverine producing fish on local menus...whatyareckon

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by j.rob on 02.02.15 21:43

As bad smells seem to be so much of a feature of this case, in all sorts of ways, how about adding to the smelly pot a few more?

The early sniffer dogs brought in to trace the scent of an alive Madeleine (as the Mcs claim they gave the police Madeleine's cuddle blanket, I do believe? Although what are the chances of TM giving police a genuine items of Madeleine's , as opposed to something that would put the dogs, and everyone else, off the scent?!) Anyway, the early sniffer dogs took a roundabout route away from the apartment block. Not taking the nearest exit but circling the block in an anti-clockwise direction and several different dogs on several different occasions became very agitated outside the front and also the back of nearby empty apartment 5J. According to police reports, they were not alerting to the scent that they were trained to alert to (the scent of an alive person - in this case Madeleine) but nevertheless their incredibly sensitive noses DID pick up a scent inside this apartment. Which made them extremely agitated.

When police managed to gain entry to the apartment, they found a fridge with an open door and rotting food in or near the fridge. Plus they also noted that in the corridor outside the apartment (or nearby along the corridor) there were trays of half eaten food as though guests had had eaten in their rooms and then put the trays outside. Plus also rubbish bags, I do believe.

Which could suggest that someone or several people had planted items in the area to try to account for why the sniffer dogs became extremely agitated outside that particular apartment. Rather reminiscent of the Mc excuses for why the blood and cadaver dogs alerted inside apartment 5A (Madeleine had a nose-bleed/Sean developed a taste for sea bass) and why the dogs alerted to the McCann hire car rented by TM three weeks after Madeleine's alleged 'abduction'. Which they claimed was due blood leaking from meat, smelly nappies (sea bas scent being confused with cadaver) and due to Kate coming into contact with six cadavers (her employers would know whether this was true or not......) in the weeks prior to the holiday. This is highly unlikely as she only worked one day a week. Unless Harold Shipman had risen from the grave and taken up a locum there of course.

All very smelly. The dogs really have been, or will be, the downfall of TM, imo.

"Ask the dogs, Sandra." If only the dogs could talk, eh? They would make a lot more sense than TM.

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by nglfi on 04.02.15 16:20

Interestingly I just found this abstract from a Food Microbiology article, which suggests that cadaverine does not develop in sea bass until at least day 9 of storage... how long were the McCanns in Praia da Luz for? 
http://europepmc.org/abstract/AGR/IND43628664

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by PeterMac on 04.02.15 17:04

Brilliant !
"Cadaverine was not detected before day 9 in whole and gutted sea bass samples and before day 11 in filleted samples. "

Yet another own goal.
- Look in the literature, or on google, discover that cadaverine CAN be produced by Sea Bass, and then tell the world, without having actually examined the evidence.
Very like the Dogs, in fact, and the Zapata case.

Now we have to wait for Mitchell to say there was a Sea bass left in the fridge from the previous occupants . . .

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by aiyoyo on 04.02.15 17:25

But they never ever sat down for family dinner/tea with their children during their tenancy in 5A.

Their children always had have tea with other children after Creche at the Tapas , then collected home for bed time.

Besides the dogs didn't mark the fridge.  The tale about the twins partaking of seabass was in the subsequent apartment (after Madeleine had long gone) and the dogs didnt alert to anything in the subsequent apartment either.

Patently obvious the cadaverine odour had nothing to do with sea bass, or smelly nappies, or rotting meat....
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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by LombardySkeptik on 04.02.15 19:18

.....but they transported the fish in the car - thats the point

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Mo on 04.02.15 19:38

@LombardySkeptik wrote:.....but they transported the fish in the car - thats the point
Which means Gerry put the fish in the car, didn't wash his hands and transferred the odour to the car keys and the dash-board?

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Nina on 04.02.15 19:58

@Mo wrote:
@LombardySkeptik wrote:.....but they transported the fish in the car - thats the point
Which means Gerry put the fish in the car, didn't wash his hands and transferred the odour to the car keys and the dash-board?
So he carried 9 day old sea bass in the car?

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Mo on 04.02.15 20:10

@Nina wrote:
@Mo wrote:
@LombardySkeptik wrote:.....but they transported the fish in the car - thats the point
Which means Gerry put the fish in the car, didn't wash his hands and transferred the odour to the car keys and the dash-board?
So he carried 9 day old sea bass in the car?
Would it make a difference if it was frozen but had started to thaw?  Just wondered if they had purchased it from the local supermarket (frozen section) for lunch which I understand they had each day back in apt 5a.

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by j.rob on 04.02.15 20:15

but they transported the fish in the car - that's the point

---

So were the McCann's self-catering after they left apartment 5A into another OC apartment, then?  They didn't move into the rental villa that had nothing to do with Mark Warner until 2nd July? Perhaps the sea bass was supposed to have been transported in the hire car after they moved into the villa and had to either self-cater or pay for their meals out?

The car hired on 24th May 2007 onwards....

----------

Snipped from article linked upthread: 

The effect of gutting and filleting on the formation of biogenic amines and its relation to microbiological and sensory attributes in ice-stored sea bass (Dicentrarchus labrax) was studied................
Cadaverine was not detected before day 9 in whole and gutted sea bass samples and before day 11 in filleted samples. Surprisingly, for whole sea bass a maximum value of cadaverine (6.47 mg/kg) was recorded on the final day of storage (day 16), whereas respective levels for gutted and filleted samples levels were lower (1.19 and 0.58 mg/kg).

-----


So this means, I think, that sea-bass stored in ice (in a freezer) will develop cadaverine within 9 to 16 days, depending on whether the fish is whole, gutted or filleted. Of course, the sea-bass that Sean allegedly developed a taste for could have been stored in ice at the shop where it was brought as well as in the freezer/fridge at the McCann OC apartment/self-hired villa.


(Can't help thinking about Gerry's alleged blog about disposal of a fridge/freezer (anyone know what date this might have been?) at a dump as well as the early sniffer dog alerts at empty apartment 5J where an open fridge(/freezer?) was found with rotting food inside or nearby (I wonder what kind of food - any sea bass or red herrings there, I wonder?!)

Given that Gerry's blog entry stating that Sean had developed a taste for sea-bass was dated 8th June (although a blog entry for 2nd June states that they ate at the beach - and therefore, theoretically Sean could have already developed his taste to sea bass by 2nd June or even before) then the timings of all this are quite interesting.


Kate's diary for Saturday 2nd June reads: "An enjoyable afternoon—I never felt so relaxed. I felt it was wrong. S and A had fun and that was important. I also worried about what people might think, like "How can they manage to...?"
It seems that Sean is liking the beach more these days. We had tea in a nearby restaurant—good, despite still thinking that I had to do normal things without feeling guilty. We left around 7.30pm and the kids were completely exhausted.


Kate had 'never' felt so relaxed? Ever? Really? Note she does not write: 'never since Madeline was taken.' Freudian slip, perhaps? Brain-leak? Why so relaxed on this particular day, I wonder?

It was on the 3rd June that, according to Gerry's blog: "Chris and Les, who travelled over with the huge inflatable banner which has been positioned near the Spanish border, are heading home today. They were very happy that the director of the Algarve tourist board allowed them to put it up in private property owned by them...."

It would appear that Chris and Les arrived quite a few days earlier, by 28th May as Gerry's blog entry for that day reads: "Some of you may have seen on the news the huge inflatable billboard which has travelled all the way from the West of Scotland to Portugal which will be used near busy roads/motorways to keep Madeleine’s disappearance high profile. We had a brief chat with Chris and Les, who drove almost non-stop from Glasgow to get here. The extraordinary length ordinary people are going to help us is truly overwhelming. We thank everyone for their efforts, no matter how small, and we know this will make a difference in our search for Madeleine."

I wonder what Chris and Les were really sent out to do? Why on earth travel overland from Scotland all the way to the Algarve with one measly inflatable banner when presumably there would be so many other ways to reach out to a wide audience and 'spread the word'. How big was this banner, for goodness sake? Couldn't they get one out there? Where was it inflated??

And, again, presumably this is against police advice that publicizing Madeleine's coloboma - which the McCanns then claimed she never had (WTF?) would pretty much be the death-sentence of Madeleine. Guess TM weren't too bothered about that by this stage?

And, if 'the abductor' had wanted to spirit Madeleine away from Luz across the Spanish border, surely it's a bit late to set up the banner over 3 weeks after Madeleine's alleged abduction. Might as well have sent it by pack-horse, it would have got there sooner! This has to be another of those huge red herrings. Distinctly fishy. What else were they bringing in? (Especially if you consider Detective Amaral's theory that the presence of certain fluids in the car was suggestive of a body being frozen?)

The Renault Scenic car used by the McCanns was hired three weeks after Madeleine's 'abduction' I do believe. Which would be 24th May 2007. So, if one is to theorize that this hire car was used to transport Madeleine's body from where-ever it had been hidden following the alleged 'abduction' on 3rd May towards, perhaps, a more final 'resting place' or at least 'another place' then the timing of Gerry's blog entry may be of some relevance.

By the 8th June 2007 (possibly earlier as there is mention of beach-side family dining on 2nd June) was Gerry feeling the need to introduce the 'Sean developing a taste for sea-bass' red herring (ahem!) as a cover--up excuse in the event that police sniffer dogs are ever brought in to investigate their hire car?  

And I think it is on record that the McCanns managed to hang onto the hire car for quite some time over the summer? In any event, it was on Monday 6 August that Portuguese police impounded the McCann's  hire car for forensic testing, according to Kate's book. This was several days after the police had carried out forensic investigations of the McCanns clothes and possessions which was on 2nd August. The day that the McCanns were planning to drive to Huelva in Spain 'to put up posters of Madeleine'. So they postponed the Huelva trip until the following day, 3rd August, claiming Gerry had  a stomach upset.And despite the fact that 3rd August was a public holiday.



More on the inflatable billboard: 
http://truthformadeleine.com/2010/06/madeleine-finders-sudden-death-and-cremation-in-skipton/

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Nina on 04.02.15 20:17

@Mo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@Mo wrote:
@LombardySkeptik wrote:.....but they transported the fish in the car - thats the point
Which means Gerry put the fish in the car, didn't wash his hands and transferred the odour to the car keys and the dash-board?
So he carried 9 day old sea bass in the car?
Would it make a difference if it was frozen but had started to thaw?  Just wondered if they had purchased it from the local supermarket (frozen section) for lunch which I understand they had each day back in apt 5a.
This is 9 day old fish, regardless of whether frozen or fresh, it is 9 day old fish. Have you ever smelled old fish, let alone 9 day old fish?

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Mo on 04.02.15 20:31

J
@Nina wrote:
@Mo wrote:
@Nina wrote:
@Mo wrote:
@LombardySkeptik wrote:.....but they transported the fish in the car - thats the point
Which means Gerry put the fish in the car, didn't wash his hands and transferred the odour to the car keys and the dash-board?
So he carried 9 day old sea bass in the car?
Would it make a difference if it was frozen but had started to thaw?  Just wondered if they had purchased it from the local supermarket (frozen section) for lunch which I understand they had each day back in apt 5a.
This is 9 day old fish, regardless of whether frozen or fresh, it is 9 day old fish. Have you ever smelled old fish, let alone 9 day old fish?

Frozen fish doesn't have an odour it is only when thawing out that it does.  I was just thinking though, I wonder when Mr and Mrs were at medical school if this is something that would have been discussed during training ie cadaver. Just a thought!

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by j.rob on 04.02.15 23:07

Well, there is a thought! 

Perhaps the sea-bass Cavour is a convenient  little number......

What does it say about Mr and Mrs Muck that they have to resort to this in regard to the demise of their daughter......

puke

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by suzyjohnson on 06.02.15 11:17

I thought the possibility of sea bass was given as an explanation for the odour inside the apartment, nothing to do with the car?

The McCanns did not eat their evening meal in the apartment and the children had their tea with others at the creche. On the Sunday, the family ate lunch on David Payne's balcony, but they had lunch inside their own apartment from Monday to Thursday.

Is it likely they they cooked and ate sea bass for lunch on any of those days? If a piece of sea bass had ended up behind the sofa, would that have been enough to create the odour the dogs alerted to several months later? 

From GM's blog 8th June, '...... Later in the afternoon we went down to the beach and had dinner in one of the restaurants which Sean and Amelie really enjoyed. Sean, in particular has acquired a taste for sea-bass!....' 


Would Gerry say Sean 'has' acquired a taste for sea bass if that taste had already been acquired before 3 rd May?

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Giant red herring

Post by j.rob on 06.02.15 13:52

So many red herrings in this case! In fact the whole case is a giant red herring.

It has been my experience that medics adore red herrings (whether or not their children acquire a taste for sea-bass). They are quite creative in their application and, imo, can go to enormous lengths to keep the red herrings swimming vigorously around in huge shoals, to the extent that everything else is obscured. Or at least what is important and relevant is obscured.

Red herrings are really handy for, among other things, covering up medical mistakes/mishaps/misdiagnoses and so on. They are also handy for befuddling the patient to the extent that he or she has no idea what is going on or what the doctor is talking about. This maintains the power balance in the hands of the professional as well as keeping the patient firmly in his or her place. "I must obey the omnipotent doctor," thinks the poor befuddled patient. 

"Trust me, I'm a doctor." 

Hmmm - would you want your life in any of the medical tapasniks' hands? I'd rather perform my own operation than submit myself to any of that lot.

Remember: "Confusion is good," said Gerry.

This is precisely what has happened in this case I do believe. A giant red herring.

Sean liking sea-bass; Kate handling six cadavers; Madeleine having a nose-bleed; dirty smelly nappies in the hire car; raw meat spilling blood in the hire car; Jane Tanner's mythical 'Tanner-man'; the vanishing blue sports bag that was much too small to hide a tennis racquet small child; and so on.

All red herrings making up an enormous shoal of them.

shark


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by LombardySkeptik on 06.02.15 14:55

@j.rob wrote:So many red herrings in this case! In fact the whole case is a giant red herring.

It has been my experience that medics adore red herrings (whether or not their children acquire a taste for sea-bass). They are quite creative in their application and, imo, can go to enormous lengths to keep the red herrings swimming vigorously around in huge shoals, to the extent that everything else is obscured. Or at least what is important and relevant is obscured.

Red herrings are really handy for, among other things, covering up medical mistakes/mishaps/misdiagnoses and so on. They are also handy for befuddling the patient to the extent that he or she has no idea what is going on or what the doctor is talking about. This maintains the power balance in the hands of the professional as well as keeping the patient firmly in his or her place. "I must obey the omnipotent doctor," thinks the poor befuddled patient. 

"Trust me, I'm a doctor." 

Hmmm - would you want your life in any of the medical tapasniks' hands? I'd rather perform my own operation than submit myself to any of that lot.

Remember: "Confusion is good," said Gerry.

This is precisely what has happened in this case I do believe. A giant red herring.

Sean liking sea-bass; Kate handling six cadavers; Madeleine having a nose-bleed; dirty smelly nappies in the hire car; raw meat spilling blood in the hire car; Jane Tanner's mythical 'Tanner-man'; the vanishing blue sports bag that was much too small to hide a tennis racquet small child; and so on.

All red herrings making up an enormous shoal of them.

shark


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring


This of course is spot-on, to create any reasonable doubt

However the court of public opinion will in the end see these explanations for what they are

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by PeterMac on 06.02.15 15:22

I think most sane people already have.

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by noseyparker on 06.02.15 15:32

cameron,brooks,branson,mitchell,duarte,gamble.I think you are right Petermac big grin

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by biggles on 06.02.15 15:52


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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 06.02.15 16:06

@LombardySkeptik wrote:
@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:One thing that's always puzzled me with the sea bass tale, just how widely available is sea bass in the fishmongers of the Algarve. Sardines, sword fish, tuna, bacalhau, hake, dorado etc are plentiful, but sea bass? Has anyone looked into this?

Its actually quite common, though less so than others such as tuna & sardines

However, it is certainly the most common cadaverine producing fish on local menus...whatyareckon
 I reckon it's as load of pollocks, just every excuse spouted by TM to explain any hole shot in their arguments by forensic evidence.
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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by plebgate on 06.02.15 16:12

@j.rob wrote:So many red herrings in this case! In fact the whole case is a giant red herring.

It has been my experience that medics adore red herrings (whether or not their children acquire a taste for sea-bass). They are quite creative in their application and, imo, can go to enormous lengths to keep the red herrings swimming vigorously around in huge shoals, to the extent that everything else is obscured. Or at least what is important and relevant is obscured.

Red herrings are really handy for, among other things, covering up medical mistakes/mishaps/misdiagnoses and so on. They are also handy for befuddling the patient to the extent that he or she has no idea what is going on or what the doctor is talking about. This maintains the power balance in the hands of the professional as well as keeping the patient firmly in his or her place. "I must obey the omnipotent doctor," thinks the poor befuddled patient. 

"Trust me, I'm a doctor." 

Hmmm - would you want your life in any of the medical tapasniks' hands? I'd rather perform my own operation than submit myself to any of that lot.

Remember: "Confusion is good," said Gerry.

This is precisely what has happened in this case I do believe. A giant red herring.

Sean liking sea-bass; Kate handling six cadavers; Madeleine having a nose-bleed; dirty smelly nappies in the hire car; raw meat spilling blood in the hire car; Jane Tanner's mythical 'Tanner-man'; the vanishing blue sports bag that was much too small to hide a tennis racquet small child; and so on.


All red herrings making up an enormous shoal of them.

shark


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
What about the open window being explained as a red herring.  

I forget who posted the comment - a red herring about a red herring.   big grin

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Red Herring

Post by PeterMac on 06.02.15 16:45

Incredibly it was the McCanns themselves who described it as a red herring.

McCanns own website.
“Lisbon 14th January 2010
There are few points which have been raised in the last few days which I would like to address specifically:

Abduction theory:   For us, there is only the abduction theory possible because we were not involved in Madeleine's disappearance and we know Madeleine did not wander off by herself. It is obvious and right that the police should consider other theories initially.

The window: I described to the police officers exactly what I found that night, as it was and is highly relevant and I knew that every little detail could be helpful in finding my daughter which is our only aim. The window which is a ground floor window was completely open and is large enough for a person to easily climb through it. Whether it had been opened for this purpose remains unknown. It could of course have been opened by the perpetrator when inside the apartment as a potential escape route or left open as a 'red herring'.  

And in that quote she again emphasises that she told the Police everything EXACTLY AS SHE FOUND IT
She told the police that the the Curtains were wide open, "the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did."
So absolutely no mistake there. The curtains were OPEN, she is sure, she qualifies it by emphasising why she remembers, and she states specifically that she told the Police the truth.

Except that two years later the curtains are now CLOSED
"and literally as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,  [demonstrates with both forearms together] that were closed, “wheesh’ like a
gust of wind kind of blew them open.   And cuddle cat was still there, and the pink blanket"


One or other is a LIE.  Carter-Ruck, and Mitchell, and the extended McCann family, and supporters please note.   You cannot have it both ways.  Your clients, family and friends are Liars.

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Re: Getting back to the Sea Bass

Post by j.rob on 06.02.15 17:13

Look how many red herring fallacies apply to this case - positively awash with them!

I also think that it is possible that medical negligence/mishap/miconduct applies to this case. Which would, at least in part, account for all the red herrings!

 In fact I think it is more than possible. It is probable. Several of the tapasniks talk about their being plenty of doctors who would know what to do in an emergency. And Russell's speciality is emergency/acute medicine, I do believe. I think this factor might lie behind Jane Tanner's huge involvement with the creation of 'Tanner-man,'
A desperate measure, imo, as TM were 'landed in it' at the last minute I think.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies#Red_herring_fallacies

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