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The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 20.02.14 9:41

Clarity required for last few lines of post:

The evidence found by the Portugese detectives for cadaver scent in the apartment was the only real, hard, concrete evidence that the McCanns were in some way behind what happened to Madeleine.

If she had been alive at the time of the 'abduction' - even if sedated - that evidence would never have been there. There would simply be Madeleine's DNA, as you would expect.

Whoever abducts her takes her away from the resort alive - no evidence of an accident, no cadaver scent in the car, no blood scent in the apartment, no evidence of death, no hard evidence that the McCanns were implicated in Madeleine's disappearance.

Once Madeleine is away from the resort the abductor could (as the McCanns themselves seem convinced) take her anywhere at all in the world. There could be sightings here, there and everywhere.

The McCanns might have been able to conceal any involvement at all in their daughter's disappearance, hiding behind the mighty force of the Murdoch press, Clarence Mitchell, Carter Ruck et al.

But, unfortunately, squirreling away backstage we had Amaral, Tony Bennett, Pat Brown, German blogger (thanks to you all for not letting this go) and many, many others who smelt rats left, right and centre.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 20.02.14 9:44

When I write there could have been sightings anywhere, what I mean is the kind of 'alleged' sightings that kept the papers so busy for so long which were all pretty much pie-in-the-sky.

The real Madeleine could also be anywhere in the world, hidden away with a new identity if alive.......

......or dead. Anywhere.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by diatribe on 20.02.14 10:19

@j.rob wrote:
 

 It's perfectly feasible that Madeleine was meant to be alive AT LEAST AT THE TIME OF ABDUCTION. What ever the plan was for after that, one may speculate on all sorts of things - there are a number of possibilities.

What abduction!! you appear to have achieved the distinction of being in a minority of one on this forum who believe there was an abduction.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 20.02.14 11:04

@diatribe wrote:
@j.rob wrote:
 

 It's perfectly feasible that Madeleine was meant to be alive AT LEAST AT THE TIME OF ABDUCTION. What ever the plan was for after that, one may speculate on all sorts of things - there are a number of possibilities.

What abduction!! you appear to have achieved the distinction of being in a minority of one on this forum who believe there was an abduction.


I suppose you are trying to play around with semantics in order to nit-pick or start a fight or undermine my position. And setting up a straw man which you can then knock down. YAWN!

I should have written 'alleged abduction'. The parents imo had some involvement in what happened to Madeleine and had some involvement in her 'disappearance' - whether you chose to describe the process of Madeleine 'disappearing' from the apartment as an 'abduction', 'disappearance', 'kidnapping' - does it really matter?

Someone moved her away. The parents pretend they haven't a clue what happened apart from the fact that they KNOW that she was 'abducted' by a stranger and they had no idea in advance that this would happen.

In fact, so confident were they that this could not happen and was so unlikely to happen, they left their children every night unattended. The repeatedly stated things like stranger abductions are so rare...so unlikely 'it never occurred to us'.

So how on earth do they go from believing that the children are so unlikely to be abducted by a stranger that it is fine to leave them alone, to, within the space of about five minutes on finding Madeleine not in the apartment, believing that the very thing they were convinced could not happen, had, in fact happened.

It's all a load of cobblers.

But thank you for the compliment that I stand out in this forum - always good not to be a sheep! big grin

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by canada12 on 20.02.14 11:32

In 2007, when this all happened, social networking had not evolved to the state it is in now. I think in 2007 the McCanns would have thought the media would be the only "communicators" they would have to deal with - and the media would be easily manipulated and influenced to convey the story they wanted told.

But instead, what happened was that one of the media outlets enabled discussions. And from those discussions, a solid core of "doubters" sprang, challenging everything that the McCanns claimed. I don't think TM knew, in 2007, that their actions and words would be subject to the kind of scrutiny they were given by those first discussion groups. And then by the groups that followed, including this one. And then Facebook and Twitter and Youtube. So that they can now never have any kind of peace of mind, no hopes that the story can be "retired" and the public will accept that Madeleine was abducted by strangers. They will always have this hanging over them, along with their "performances" on video, for all to see and all to judge.

In a way, it's their own personal hell. And in my opinion, well deserved.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by Guest on 20.02.14 13:40

And, of course, they could never have imagined that the PJ would publish their investigation files ... when finally their wish came true and they were de-arguidod and the PT investigation shelved ...
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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by diatribe on 20.02.14 13:48

j.rob

''I suppose you are trying to play around with semantics in order to nit-pick or start a fight or undermine my position. And setting up a straw man which you can then knock down. YAWN!''


Not really, but you do tend to coin the words, abductor, abductors, abduction etc. an inordinate amount of times, whereas others normally only use these words in a derisory context.

Heaven forbid you should be classified as a sheep, lest I might feel is if I'd been mauled by a Geoffery Howe if ever suffering the misfortune of getting into a confrontation with you.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by diatribe on 20.02.14 14:04

Châtelaine wrote:And, of course, they could never have imagined that the PJ would publish their investigation files ...
 T think that the publishing of the PJ files was not only a great surprise to them, Chatelaine, it was also by far their biggest fly in the ointment.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 20.02.14 15:05

The only reason I use the term 'abducted' is because this is the term used to describe what has happened to Madeleine by her parents and their friends. Not to mention the media etc.

One definition of abducted:
 Law. the illegal carrying or enticing away of a person, especially by interfering with a relationship, as the taking of a child from its parent.


Given that I believe that the McCanns quite often tell us what happened to Madeleine, but imply that they had nothing at all to do with it, imo, it is imperative to explore what happened from the perspective of what the McCanns have told us. What they tell us give clues as to what happened - but just removes certain people from having any involvement.


The claim she did not 'wonder off' - the inference is very clear: 'someone took her away'. Yes, I think that is true - someone or people DID 'take her away' (as opposed to her wandering off, getting lost etc).


The McCAnns were always very clear on what had happened to Madeleine, just not clear on WHO was responsible. (Although the Jane Tanner sighting was given much prominence.)


"What Jane saw was Madeleine's abductor taking her away." (page 84).


Amaral concluded that the McCann's faked an abduction. It was his belief that the motive for this was to cover up an accidental death of Madeleine in the apartment.


This makes sense in the light of the findings of the sniffer dogs, as well as the McCanns behaviour and what they said on the night of the 'disappearance' and afterwards.


However, I am simply suggesting that it is possible that the plan was for Madeleine 'to be taken' alive.  This would not have left any suspicious traces of cadaver scent or blood in the apartment or car.


Once away from the resort Madeleine could then disappear off anywhere. No hard evidence left behind in the apartment or the resort to incriminate the McCanns. 


And both parents continually harp on about the 'lack of evidence'. This has definitely been a factor of huge importance to them.


"I knew there was nothing to implicate us" writes Kate on page 326 of her book. Gerry repeatedly claims there is 'no evidence' to implicate them in their daughter's disappearance. 


"W knew the police didn't have any evidence against us" - Kate on page 330 of her book.


She also, ill-advisedly imo, cites Amaral's involvement in the Cipriano case, disingenuously writing: "Goncalo Amaral has been convicted of falsifying statements and has coordianted investigations into the disappearance of two little girls, neither of whom has been found. Why is this man being allowed a platform from which to peddle his absurd and offensive ideas?"


I think Kate shows the most appalling lack of judgement in making a link between Madeleine and this case, for all sorts of reason. But then I think her judgement in general is terrible.


But you can see that the McCann concern seems to be primarily about there being a lack of evidence to implicate them in Madeleine's disappearance.


This has been a cat and mouse 'game' played over a very long period of time, imo.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by diatribe on 20.02.14 15:14

@j.rob wrote:The only reason I use the term 'abducted' is because this is the term used to describe what has happened to Madeleine by her parents and their friends.



Precisely the point I was making. :roll:

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Just a theory....

Post by BigRon on 23.11.14 11:46

I have to agree with j.rob that the evidence is pointing to a premeditated plan to stage an 'abduction' where Madeleine is whisked away and then some time later there is the 'reveal' that she has gone. However, on 30th April Madeleine appears to have come to harm in the apartment, throwing all the plans into chaos. A hasty Plan B was concocted but even this was thrown into chaos due to an element they could not control.

1. Premeditation

A number of factors can only be explained away by a degree of premeditation that 'something' was going to happen on the McCanns' holiday week.
- the presence of photos of Madeleine ready for distribution. The McCanns claimed these were printed at MW reception but there was no printer capable of printing the pictures as brought to Portugal by K & G.
- the request by K&G for an extra bed to be in their apartment http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_335.jpg NB this request does not relate to the Paynes if you look at the order of how the sheet is printed
- a possible meeting between Jane Tanner and Robert Murat at the Salsalito property in Burgau. Either that or Tanner has been there independently and Murat has strong connections to the property too creating at least an indirect involvement
- the speed at which websites & the Fund were created
- Gerry's video remark on the airport bus. If he was not there to enjoy himself then he had some kind of 'unenjoyable' task to perform

2. The plan

Lots of guesswork here. Let us suppose...

The Naylors (possibly invited by Jez Wilkins) and the Riders are in Luz at the same time. It is vital that the Riders do not stay at MW because then their 'Madalene' will be seen and associated with them. With Elizabeth Naylor at MW it is suggested that her best friend Madalene joins her at kid's club. Let us also assume that the Riders 'pose' as the McCanns at the Millennium - they get free brekkie (!) and it's more convenient than their own hotel for the kids getting to kids' club. Gerry goes down with Robert Naylor and signs both of the kids in at MW - creating an association with a similar 'Madeleine'. This then creates a problem later with the whole Maddie/Madeleine thing as they would naturally not refer to a stranger's child as 'Maddie' but the little girl corrects them. This would be a high risk strategy as 3/4 year olds have the habit of telling the truth regardless of the circumstance. However, these are highly intelligent children who could almost have been handpicked from one of the most prestigious primary schools in the country. It has been pointed out that the Blair children have attended EN/MRs school.

The McCanns decide to keep sightings of themselves as a family to a minimum. They eat in the apartment, making their own breakfast and lunch (why? you're on holiday!!). When they go out of an evening the children are tucked up in bed with checks being made infrequently. We know checks were infrequent because of the length of the crying incident overheard by Mrs Fenn.

At some point there is a plan for Madeleine McCann to disappear (probably to the large sprawling Salsalito property in Burgau) where she will be looked after possibly by Murat and his other half. Tanner has been there to check things over. There are outbuildings and Murat will be very familiar with the property. There may also have been a plan for Malinka to help with the creation of a website for a public campaign where there is a lot of money to be made. IVF is an expensive process, after all.

The extra bed may have been requested for M Rider (for a sleepover EN's parents could have purported to Joe Rider and Sarah Fox to have been with Elizabeth)? Maybe this could have created/reinforced the impression that Madeleine was IN 5A, still around later in the holiday in order that MBM could be safely hidden away in Burgau before the alarm was raised.

3. The first problem

I do have a problem here with the timing of the crying reported by Mrs Fenn as she reports it happening on the evening of May 1st. Unless the crying was that of Madelene Rider, sitting on the spare bed in the children's room. Activity seems to ramp up early on the morning of the 1st May, suggesting something happens late on 30th. Let us speculate.... K&G come in roaring drunk from the Tapas/Chaplin's on 30th and go straight to bed. They fail to see that their distressed daughter has fallen behind the sofa, clutching her beloved Cuddle Cat, hit her head and sadly died. They wake in the early hours of the morning and discover her body (giving plenty of time for cadaverine to form). They want to open the windows to 'air' the apartment but Gerry in his rage cannot get the shutters in their room to open and almost breaks the handle off the shutters in the process. They put Maddie in the blue sports bag in the cupboard but she cannot stay there for long. They need to wash their clothes but cannot operate the damn machine. Workers are arranged to mend the shutters and KM casually asks how to work the washing machine at the same time. The plan is in disarray. Murat is summoned to Portugal. He books a flight early on 1st May and arrives I think around 10:30ish. Murat contacts his lawyer straight away. MBM at some point is moved to a freezer - the blue sports bag being placed in the flower bed whilst the patio doors are closed on the way out.

4. The second problem

Plans have to be changed. There are texts and phone calls which are deleted later. The plan is going to be that an abduction HAS taken place but now it has to be to conceal MBM's death. NB Phone call made by KM to friend Amanda on 2 May - could the washing machine have failed in getting bloodstains out and some advice was being sought from their ex-cleaner? At some stage the Riders become suspicious/unhappy that their child is spending time away from them. Maybe their 'Madalene' recounts the story where she cried for an hour and a half with no response. On the evening of the 3rd May they decide to reclaim their child. Joe Rider sets forth to go and find Robert Naylor who may even be in the McCann's apartment with Elizabeth and Madeleine or in one of the nearby Tapas 7's apartments. They insist on taking Madelene back to their hotel. Joe Rider strides purposefully through the town, carrying his sleepy child, bumping into the Smith family on his way back to his hotel. When Kate goes to check all is well, Robert Naylor tells Kate that the Riders have had enough and 'reclaimed' Madalene. Kate comes running back to the table screaming 'They've taken her!'. A timeline is hastily written along lines already agreed for the plan which was supposed to take place the following night. GMs bumping into JW is unforeseen or not relayed to the group and makes JT's 'sighting' unbelievable.

Sounds far-fetched, right? I believe RM said he had been dragged into "the biggest f***-up in history". And nobody's squealed.... because people had been in on a conspiracy to defraud from the start and people want to cover their own backsides. How much everyone would know about such a grand plan is questionable. I wonder if the Naylors have ever been spoken to by the PJ or SY? All this of course IMO and based on nothing more than trying to find connections between the myriad of random facts that exist in this most complicated case.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by Guest on 23.11.14 12:05

Thanks, BigRon, I applaud any poster who attempts to make sense of this case.  I agree with much of what you say.  I think the extra bed was ordered for the Paynes (for DW?), that's how I read the link you posted.  You mention the Mcs keeping sightings of them as a family to a minimum - I remember reading here several months ago that when leaving the apartment one of the parents would exit via the front with one or two children, and the other through the patio doors, again with one or two of the children.  Sorry, I can't remember what thread. 
Also, thanks to j.rob for interesting reading.
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The extra bed

Post by BigRon on 23.11.14 12:26

ladyinred - thanks for your comments. If you check out page 1 of the check in sheet you will see that the Paynes booking starts at the foot of page 1 and continues over. The extra bed is definitely for the McCanns.....

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 14:33

Guest wrote:If it's speculation galore anyway, maybe the parents put Maddie up for illegal adoption, in effect sold the kid, and tried to extort more money from the buyers. They threatened to call the police and cry abduction, so the buyers threatened to kill Maddie.
To get the money, the parents cried abduction and got a dead child afterwards.
So, no money and a dead child delivered outside on the flower bed by the window. Disaster!
 
Far fetched, I know.

That's not actually that far-fetched. There are to my mind indications that in the early days/weeks Kate at least (and maybe Gerry too) was not sure whether Madeleine was alive or dead. There is a passage in Kate's book which is so strange, when she describes being driven back to the police station at high speed with Gerry. She does not know why the police car  that was taking them back to OC after four hours of questioning has suddenly and abruptly done a U-turn back to the police station.

Kate writes: "I cannot overstate how terrifying this was. Had Madeleine been found? Please God. Was she alive? Was she dead? Gerry and I clung on to each other for dear life. I was crying hysterically and praying for all I was worth.

"Back at the police station we endured at least another ten minutes of sheer torture in the waiting area before somebody showed us a photograph, clearly taken from CCTV of a blonde child with a woman in a petrol-station shop. We weren't told anything about this, just asked whether the little girl was Madeleine. She wasn't. And that was that. Again we were sent on our way, utterly devastated."

This is just such an odd account.

If you take their story at face value (I know - it's not easy, but it's important to try to step into the probable mind-set of parents who have had a much-loved child kidnapped or abducted by a stranger) then how would you feel if police, when taking you back to your hotel after questioning, suddenly did a U-turn and drove back to the police station at speed?

Given that this is less than 24 hours after their daughter had allegedly been abducted, surely they would still be hanging onto every bit of hope that perhaps she was still alive? For all they knew at this stage, someone may have contacted the police with vital information. Someone may have known who the abductor was and where Madeleine was. The 'abductor' could have had a change of heart and left her somewhere. Or maybe be holding her but demanding a ransom, for instance. Any of these things could have happened. There was still a reasonable possibility for a good outcome. Certainly more reasonable to expect to find Madeleine alive and well at this stage, less than 24 hours after her disappearance, than in the long years that followed. When the McCanns, curiously, rather than becoming less hopeful became more hopeful that she might be found alive and well. Ever more hopeful, even, as the years went by money rolled in and they had still got away with it

(This is patently nonsensical. And is yet more 'proof' (if any is needed) that the McCanns did NOT want Madeleine found by police, either alive or dead, imo.)

Yet Kate's account does not allow for any kind of hope that Madeleine might have been found. On the contrary, she seems to be saying that they are both terrified that Madeleine has been found.  And, I would suggest, rather more terrified that she might have been found alive than dead.

"I cannot overstate how terrifying it was knowing that Madeleine might have had been found.

Had Madeleine been found?  Please God NO!


Was she alive? 


Was she dead?


Gerry and I clung onto each other for dear life we were literally clinging on for our lives.  


It was sheer torture.


The impression I get from this account is that Kate at least, did not know at this stage whether Madeleine was alive or dead. And she is absolutely terrified that they (the police) may have found her. 

Notice how she gives equal weight as to whether Madeleine is alive, or whether she is dead?

I think the outcome for both Kate and Gerry if Madeleine had been found by police either alive or dead would be equally terrible. This is what Kate is telling us, imo. The sheer terror of this was making them cling onto each other for dear life.

Gerry I do believe is also terrified that Madeleine might have been found. But he may already have known at this stage that she was dead. He may even have been the person who killed her, imo. (Or one of several people.) It's possible. 

 In one of the Dr Robert's analyses, he analyses some of the McCann media interviews in the weeks after 'the abduction' and picks out one in which Gerry appears to give a very clear confirmation that Madeleine is dead. But this is some weeks after 'the abduction', I do believe. And I think there are other indications from family members and from Clarence Mitchell at maybe around this time or even later, that by this stage they now knew Madeleine is dead. Indicating that at an earlier stage (certainly at the 'jemmied shutters' stage) they did not.

Remember, Gerry told everyone that confusion is good, as it means that no-one knows what is true or not.

I also find Kate's dead-pan description of the outcome of the terrifying ordeal which had been minutes of 'sheer torture' mighty strange.

"We were asked  whether the little girl was Madeleine."


Well - how did that feel Kate? You have had at at least twenty minutes of so of terror and sheer torture in anticipation of what the outcome of this encounter might be. You and Gerry have been clinging on for dear life. 

You are terrified that Madeleine might have been found dead?


Now here you are being shown CCTV footage of a little girl who presumably looks a bit like Madeleine at a petrol station? 

Doesn't that give you hope, even for a brief few moments? The police are actively looking? The police are still hopeful that Madeleine can be found alive? 

What must it have been like scrutinizing this CCTV? Scrutinizing the child? 

But no, nothing, nada. We are not taken through any kind of emotional roller-coaster on this score.

Merely: "She wasn't. And that was that."


That was what, though?

Where are the emotional responses you would expect, such as: "We both so wanted it to be Madeleine. We stared and stared. Our hearts were in our mouths as we scrutinized the picture. We clung onto each other. Hoping and praying that it was Madeleine. If only. If only. But however long we looked and however hard we tried, we couldn't see Madeleine there. It was such an emotional roller-coaster. We both cried and clung onto each other even more. But at least it meant that the police, at any rate were still actively looking and still hoping she could be alive.

But we don't get any of that. If anything, we get the opposite. Kate is adamant that the child was not Madeleine. And that is that.

Curiouser and curiouser.....who was this child, I wonder?

Maybe it was Madeleine???

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 17:17

Yet Kate's account does not allow for any kind of hope that Madeleine might have been found. On the contrary, she seems to be saying that they are both terrified that Madeleine has been found.  And, I would suggest, rather more terrified that she might have been found alive than dead.


---


The Portuguese police  noted that Kate was irritated about having to go back to the police station. And irritated about having to identify the child. And they noted that she showed no hope of Madeleine being found. I would suggest that perhaps it was more that Kate was demonstrating that she really didn't want Madeleine to be found. 


------


Maybe it was Madeleine???



Or Madalene even???

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by juliet on 23.11.14 19:13

If you check out the name Heselton, as seen on the bottom of the reservation list, it has an odd consequence. For A Heselton I tried Andrew (on google). Just another coincidence I am sure!
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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 19:32

Guest wrote:Another example of earlier actions than the McCanns declared, and something, unlike the policerecords, that shows that receptionist Helder was not mistaking about the time he called the police.


Housing manager Santos: "remembers that at 22.00/22.15 he received a phone call from the reception, from receptionist Helder, who told him that John Hill was extremely agitated as a child had disappeared and that the GNR had been contacted but had not arrived yet. He added (the receptionist) that he had phoned the GNR post several times and that he had been told that they would arrive when they could but that they were investigating a theft in Odiaxere." http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/VITOR-SANTOS.htm

I agree about the (deliberate, imo) delay in phoning police. And the seriously messed up timelines. This is where the hoax really came to grief I do believe.

If the earliest reports of commotion are correct - with eye-witnesses hearing commotion that a child had gone missing as early as 9.20pm, and certainly several eye-witnesses having heard commotion of a missing child well before 10pm, then this simply does not fit in with  Kate claiming that the discovery of Madeleine missing was made at 10pm. And Kate raising the alarm shortly after 10pm.

How could  witnesses possibly have heard about a child going missing if by that stage Kate had not raised the alarm???

This, imo, cannot be unconnected with Gerry and Jez Wilkins' alleged encounter outside the apartment at 9.05pm (according to Kate and Gerry). Right after he  had checked on his children, apparently, and seen Madeleine sleeping beautifully.

What happened??

I was going to edit the post to clarify that 'he' meant Gerry. But then it occurred to me that perhaps 'he' could have been Jez? If, as has been claimed, the Naylors (and Riders?) were friends with Jez Wilkins and Bridget O'Donnell, and if - as has been postulated - Madalene Rider was a 'stand-in' for Madeleine McCann, then perhaps Jez was indeed checking out what the Mcs were up to that week, right up to Thursday evening.

Just a theory as always.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 19:38

@BigRon wrote:I have to agree with j.rob that the evidence is pointing to a premeditated plan to stage an 'abduction' where Madeleine is whisked away and then some time later there is the 'reveal' that she has gone. However, on 30th April Madeleine appears to have come to harm in the apartment, throwing all the plans into chaos. A hasty Plan B was concocted but even this was thrown into chaos due to an element they could not control.

1. Premeditation

A number of factors can only be explained away by a degree of premeditation that 'something' was going to happen on the McCanns' holiday week.
- the presence of photos of Madeleine ready for distribution. The McCanns claimed these were printed at MW reception but there was no printer capable of printing the pictures as brought to Portugal by K & G.
- the request by K&G for an extra bed to be in their apartment http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P2/02_VOLUME_IIa_Page_335.jpg NB this request does not relate to the Paynes if you look at the order of how the sheet is printed
- a possible meeting between Jane Tanner and Robert Murat at the Salsalito property in Burgau. Either that or Tanner has been there independently and Murat has strong connections to the property too creating at least an indirect involvement
- the speed at which websites & the Fund were created
- Gerry's video remark on the airport bus. If he was not there to enjoy himself then he had some kind of 'unenjoyable' task to perform

2. The plan

Lots of guesswork here. Let us suppose...

The Naylors (possibly invited by Jez Wilkins) and the Riders are in Luz at the same time. It is vital that the Riders do not stay at MW because then their 'Madalene' will be seen and associated with them. With Elizabeth Naylor at MW it is suggested that her best friend Madalene joins her at kid's club. Let us also assume that the Riders 'pose' as the McCanns at the Millennium - they get free brekkie (!) and it's more convenient than their own hotel for the kids getting to kids' club. Gerry goes down with Robert Naylor and signs both of the kids in at MW - creating an association with a similar 'Madeleine'. This then creates a problem later with the whole Maddie/Madeleine thing as they would naturally not refer to a stranger's child as 'Maddie' but the little girl corrects them. This would be a high risk strategy as 3/4 year olds have the habit of telling the truth regardless of the circumstance. However, these are highly intelligent children who could almost have been handpicked from one of the most prestigious primary schools in the country. It has been pointed out that the Blair children have attended EN/MRs school.

The McCanns decide to keep sightings of themselves as a family to a minimum. They eat in the apartment, making their own breakfast and lunch (why? you're on holiday!!). When they go out of an evening the children are tucked up in bed with checks being made infrequently. We know checks were infrequent because of the length of the crying incident overheard by Mrs Fenn.

At some point there is a plan for Madeleine McCann to disappear (probably to the large sprawling Salsalito property in Burgau) where she will be looked after possibly by Murat and his other half. Tanner has been there to check things over. There are outbuildings and Murat will be very familiar with the property. There may also have been a plan for Malinka to help with the creation of a website for a public campaign where there is a lot of money to be made. IVF is an expensive process, after all.

The extra bed may have been requested for M Rider (for a sleepover EN's parents could have purported to Joe Rider and Sarah Fox to have been with Elizabeth)? Maybe this could have created/reinforced the impression that Madeleine was IN 5A, still around later in the holiday in order that MBM could be safely hidden away in Burgau before the alarm was raised.

3. The first problem

I do have a problem here with the timing of the crying reported by Mrs Fenn as she reports it happening on the evening of May 1st. Unless the crying was that of Madelene Rider, sitting on the spare bed in the children's room. Activity seems to ramp up early on the morning of the 1st May, suggesting something happens late on 30th. Let us speculate.... K&G come in roaring drunk from the Tapas/Chaplin's on 30th and go straight to bed. They fail to see that their distressed daughter has fallen behind the sofa, clutching her beloved Cuddle Cat, hit her head and sadly died. They wake in the early hours of the morning and discover her body (giving plenty of time for cadaverine to form). They want to open the windows to 'air' the apartment but Gerry in his rage cannot get the shutters in their room to open and almost breaks the handle off the shutters in the process. They put Maddie in the blue sports bag in the cupboard but she cannot stay there for long. They need to wash their clothes but cannot operate the damn machine. Workers are arranged to mend the shutters and KM casually asks how to work the washing machine at the same time. The plan is in disarray. Murat is summoned to Portugal. He books a flight early on 1st May and arrives I think around 10:30ish. Murat contacts his lawyer straight away. MBM at some point is moved to a freezer - the blue sports bag being placed in the flower bed whilst the patio doors are closed on the way out.

4. The second problem

Plans have to be changed. There are texts and phone calls which are deleted later. The plan is going to be that an abduction HAS taken place but now it has to be to conceal MBM's death. NB Phone call made by KM to friend Amanda on 2 May - could the washing machine have failed in getting bloodstains out and some advice was being sought from their ex-cleaner? At some stage the Riders become suspicious/unhappy that their child is spending time away from them. Maybe their 'Madalene' recounts the story where she cried for an hour and a half with no response. On the evening of the 3rd May they decide to reclaim their child. Joe Rider sets forth to go and find Robert Naylor who may even be in the McCann's apartment with Elizabeth and Madeleine or in one of the nearby Tapas 7's apartments. They insist on taking Madelene back to their hotel. Joe Rider strides purposefully through the town, carrying his sleepy child, bumping into the Smith family on his way back to his hotel. When Kate goes to check all is well, Robert Naylor tells Kate that the Riders have had enough and 'reclaimed' Madalene. Kate comes running back to the table screaming 'They've taken her!'. A timeline is hastily written along lines already agreed for the plan which was supposed to take place the following night. GMs bumping into JW is unforeseen or not relayed to the group and makes JT's 'sighting' unbelievable.

Sounds far-fetched, right? I believe RM said he had been dragged into "the biggest f***-up in history". And nobody's squealed.... because people had been in on a conspiracy to defraud from the start and people want to cover their own backsides. How much everyone would know about such a grand plan is questionable. I wonder if the Naylors have ever been spoken to by the PJ or SY? All this of course IMO and based on nothing more than trying to find connections between the myriad of random facts that exist in this most complicated case.


WOW. Quite impressive. Yes, Murat described it as the biggest f***-up in history and Gerry described it as 'a disaster'.

Conspiracy to defraud - yes. 

Greed, sheer greed, imo.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 19:43

If it's speculation galore anyway, maybe the parents put Maddie up for illegal adoption, in effect sold the kid, and tried to extort more money from the buyers. They threatened to call the police and cry abduction, so the buyers threatened to kill Maddie.
To get the money, the parents cried abduction and got a dead child afterwards.
So, no money and a dead child delivered outside on the flower bed by the window. Disaster!
 
Far fetched, I know.


--------




If the disappearance of Madeleine was something to do with child trafficking - as suggested by her parents and their friends when they suggested that she had been taken by a paedophile (ring) and also as suggested by barrister (and spy?) Mr Shrimpton (sorry not exactly sure what he is!) then this could explain the enormity and complexity of this case. 


Did a pre-planned abduction 'hoax' find itself morphed into a child trafficking type of scenario? Or vice-versa, of course. 


My mind is boggling.... spin.

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Boggled minds...

Post by missbeetle on 23.11.14 20:00

@j.rob wrote:If it's speculation galore anyway, maybe the parents put Maddie up for illegal adoption, in effect sold the kid, and tried to extort more money from the buyers. They threatened to call the police and cry abduction, so the buyers threatened to kill Maddie.
To get the money, the parents cried abduction and got a dead child afterwards.
So, no money and a dead child delivered outside on the flower bed by the window. Disaster!
 
Far fetched, I know.


--------




If the disappearance of Madeleine was something to do with child trafficking - as suggested by her parents and their friends when they suggested that she had been taken by a paedophile (ring) and also as suggested by barrister (and spy?) Mr Shrimpton (sorry not exactly sure what he is!) then this could explain the enormity and complexity of this case. 


Did a pre-planned abduction 'hoax' find itself morphed into a child trafficking type of scenario? 


My mind is boggling.... spin.

I've wondered if some other party got wind of the pre-planned abduction hoax...

...and thought to themselves "Oh no you don't" -

- as it would shine a light on their own nefarious dealings -

...and somehow interfered with the plans of the McCanns.

A hijacked scheme, if you like - but I don't know who or how...

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 20:24

@missbeetle wrote:
@j.rob wrote:If it's speculation galore anyway, maybe the parents put Maddie up for illegal adoption, in effect sold the kid, and tried to extort more money from the buyers. They threatened to call the police and cry abduction, so the buyers threatened to kill Maddie.
To get the money, the parents cried abduction and got a dead child afterwards.
So, no money and a dead child delivered outside on the flower bed by the window. Disaster!
 
Far fetched, I know.


--------




If the disappearance of Madeleine was something to do with child trafficking - as suggested by her parents and their friends when they suggested that she had been taken by a paedophile (ring) and also as suggested by barrister (and spy?) Mr Shrimpton (sorry not exactly sure what he is!) then this could explain the enormity and complexity of this case. 


Did a pre-planned abduction 'hoax' find itself morphed into a child trafficking type of scenario? 


My mind is boggling.... spin.

I've wondered if some other party got wind of the pre-planned abduction hoax...

...and thought to themselves "Oh no you don't" -

- as it would shine a light on their own nefarious dealings -

...and somehow interfered with the plans of the McCanns.

A hijacked scheme, if you like - but I don't know who or how...

Maybe the other party (or parties) were 'in' on a pre-planned abduction hoax (or at least some of them were) and were prepared to go along with that. But when suspicions arose that there was more to it than that - or that something had gone wrong or there was another agenda - a 'wider agenda even' - was involved they got cold feet and wanted 'out'. It's one thing staging an abduction of a live child who is then happily rescued from her hellish underground liar (Elizabeth Smart in the USA, imo) and it is all smiles on the steps of the White House. 

It is quite another thing, imo,  to get embroiled in a hoax that has, intentionally or not, involved the possible abuse and possible murder of a child. Either at the hands of the parents and their friends. Or at the hands of third parties (if there was some kind of child trafficking element involved.)

YIKES!

I agree that the scheme was hijacked. Most definitely, imo.

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by juliet on 23.11.14 20:27

Probably been mentioned but of course KM told Yvonne Martin the next morning that Maddie had been taken by a couple. Then David Payne put a stop to the conversation
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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by j.rob on 23.11.14 20:35

@juliet wrote:Probably been mentioned but of course KM told Yvonne Martin the next morning that Maddie had been taken by a couple. Then David Payne put a stop to the conversation
Indeed.

The night before Kate cried out (allegedly) 'the bastards have taken her'. (Which 'bastards' and which 'her' I wonder?)

Then the next day Kate tells social worker Yvonne Martin that Madeleine had been taken by a couple.

Oh dear, the Mcs always were rather a liability, imo. 

And Kate and Gerry really should have got a better ghost-writer for that bewk - it is simply dripping with clues (my rates are very reasonable, by the way  big grin.)

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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by juliet on 23.11.14 21:20

And they told the world, via friends and family, that the shutters had been jemmied. It was a blatant lie! Soon afterwards they completely changed that story to say they left the patio door open (I think the first reason given to the media was " in case of fire"). Yet no-one ever challenges them. There are 100 elephants in every McCann-habited room.
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Re: The McCann's planned abduction went wrong?

Post by XTC on 23.11.14 21:54

Some interesting theories abound in this mystery and most are no wilder or outrageous as the idea that a bunch of burglars were party to  a murder ( accidental or otherwise ) because of a bungled house robbery gone wrong.

My initial opinions on this mystery though are that : if this was pre-planned they could surely all come up with a better tale than the jemmied shutter and the an unlocked patio door for the removers(s) to get in through but not exit through? The abductors surely would like simplicity.
In through the back patio door and out through the unlocked Yale like front wooden door. Why mess about jemmying shutters to get in when
you may be aware that the patio doors are left open for checking purposes? I'm afraid  the abduction theories are on a par with the burglar one and implies the same technique in order to get to Madeleine.


Being as it seems SY have analysed all the mobile phone data they say they have then if the people wandering round PdL that night were in possession of their own mobiles then should it not be relatively easy to link each number with one person? Those unfortunate people who don't have a mobile phone may not be onthe radar then. I'm not an expert so I don't know how accurate in terms of metres the experts in tracking or cross referencing calls/texts and the phones that made them can be. One for other experts if they can tell us what this referencing is capable of exposing. Like a Silent witness.

On the other hand though, who called who may be more revealing I think.

RM has been traced to the Palmeiras Golf Club by pinging phone masts ( thank you Tony ) which is useful but to make this even more interesting would be if you could place other people there at the same or similar times. People connected to the case directly. Witnesses
even witnessing events that transpired at the Golf Club at a certain time.

In my opinion SY should have more clout on the British side of mobile enquiries at the time  than the PJ had and I wonder whether they have taken advantage of the backing of The Home Office to dig a bit deeper than the PJ were allowed to do?

Also there are certain posters on other sites who say they have worked for GCHQ. If so would GCHQ have any information on the night beyond the alarm going off ( in other words mobiles firing off like crazy) re: the flurry of calls and texts made form that starting point.

If they ( GCHQ) were listening in - what did they hear or see?

If I was Redwood that would have been my starting point. If GCHQ were doing their job of course?

Perhaps they were but no-ones asked? Or maybe it's not available?

Meanwhile I'll try to remain optimistic.

Just all opinion though.

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