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Actual time of disappearance.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Guest on 18.02.14 23:05

Diatribe cat baker was shipped off to another warner complex in Greece(iirc) a week after Madeleine went missing.
She was also brought to Rothley in November 07 to have a catch up with the mcs...To see how she was getting on?! Bizarre.

I would say she is a very unreliable witness myself.
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by ultimaThule on 19.02.14 1:29

I agree with Bellisa in classing Catriona Baker as an unreliable witness and it's unlikely it will take much for her to roll over - arrest on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, maximum term life imprisonment, should serve to induce perfect recall and more especially when its pointed out that, given the heinous nature of the crime(s) and the notoriety of the case, conviction is likely to attract a sentence of considerably more than the 3.5 years handed down to Maxine Carr for the same offence.
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 19.02.14 2:15

@ultimaThule wrote:I agree with Bellisa in classing Catriona Baker as an unreliable witness and it's unlikely it will take much for her to roll over - arrest on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, maximum term life imprisonment, should serve to induce perfect recall and more especially when its pointed out that, given the heinous nature of the crime(s) and the notoriety of the case, conviction is likely to attract a sentence of considerably more than the 3.5 years handed down to Maxine Carr for the same offence.

You might actually have a case for arresting her in the UK, because if I remember correctly, she made her statement to the Leics. police, not the PJ. A lot hinges on her statement because without it, instead of putting the time line forward as the Met police have, there would be good cause to retard it.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by tigger on 19.02.14 8:22

@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:I agree with Bellisa in classing Catriona Baker as an unreliable witness and it's unlikely it will take much for her to roll over - arrest on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, maximum term life imprisonment, should serve to induce perfect recall and more especially when its pointed out that, given the heinous nature of the crime(s) and the notoriety of the case, conviction is likely to attract a sentence of considerably more than the 3.5 years handed down to Maxine Carr for the same offence.

You might actually have a case for arresting her in the UK, because if I remember correctly, she made her statement to the Leics. police, not the PJ. A lot hinges on her statement because without it, instead of putting the time line forward as the Met police have, there would be good cause to retard it.

I would think that her statement was - as all the rogatory statements were - at the request of the PJ and the PJ were actually observing some of the interviews. The LP were sent to PdL as liaison officers and LP continued to act as such - certainly whilst the McCanns were still arguidos.
In other words, LP did what the PJ asked them to do for them.



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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 19.02.14 13:08

@tigger wrote:
.

I would think that her statement was - as all the rogatory statements were - at the request of the PJ and the PJ were actually observing some of the interviews. The LP were sent to PdL as liaison officers and LP continued to act as such - certainly whilst the McCanns were still arguidos.
In other words, LP did what the PJ asked them to do for them.



She was actually interviewd and gave a statement to the British police at the Leics. Police Headquarters on the 14th inst. April, 2008, Tigger.


''I was interviewed on DVD, by DC GIERC of the Leicestershire Police between 10h09 and 10h54 on Monday, 14th of April of 2008 in the Leicestershire police headquarters. I can affirm that my statement on DVD is truthful and in accord with my understanding.''

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by HelenMeg on 19.02.14 13:45

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@diatribe wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote: what I have never been able to resolve in my own mind, and what I believe to be the basis of the "pro" side is, how on earth could a parent carry on as "normal" up until the official announcement of the disappearance? This, for me, has always been the biggest obstacle whilst following the case.

Well, Smoke, if it was either that or face imprisonment, loss of their other two children, the ending of their careers, probable bankrupcy culminating in the loss of their home, a life as pariahs etc. etc. etc.. Which would you consider to be the less palatable, particularly if you were an ambitious and mercenary person.

Yes indeed. There are people wired completely differently on an emotional level. I personally cannot resolve this, being the way I am wired. Some can carry on regardless of the circumstances whatever they are. It's just this is the one thing for me personally, which occasionally puts a shadow of doubt in my mind. Some people can maintain strength for an end goal, others cannot put up any pretence at all. I freely confess to being in the latter group.
But who says they did carry on as normal ? Is there any evidence that showed they carried on as normal. It would depend upon the time of death too. If she died at around 18:30 then they were simply carrying out tasks according to the staged abduction plan. They each had a role / tasks. It was 'abduction' or 'arrest' perhaps.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by ultimaThule on 19.02.14 14:28

@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:I agree with Bellisa in classing Catriona Baker as an unreliable witness and it's unlikely it will take much for her to roll over - arrest on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, maximum term life imprisonment, should serve to induce perfect recall and more especially when its pointed out that, given the heinous nature of the crime(s) and the notoriety of the case, conviction is likely to attract a sentence of considerably more than the 3.5 years handed down to Maxine Carr for the same offence.

You might actually have a case for arresting her in the UK, because if I remember correctly, she made her statement to the Leics. police, not the PJ. A lot hinges on her statement because without it, instead of putting the time line forward as the Met police have, there would be good cause to retard it.
Are you planning to be a contortionist when you grow up, diatribe?

According to your interpretation of the law in these matters, the only course of justice Catriona Baker can be accused of perverting is that of Portugal in which case, regardless of whether she gave her statement to little green from Mars or blue clad coppers in Leicestershire, in your unique opinion she cannot be arrested or tried in the UK for any crime she is alleged to have committed abroad.

If you continue to interpret the law every which way in order to suit your purpose, you'll tie yourself in knots.
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by tigger on 19.02.14 14:50

@diatribe wrote:
@tigger wrote:
.

I would think that her statement was - as all the rogatory statements were - at the request of the PJ and the PJ were actually observing some of the interviews. The LP were sent to PdL as liaison officers and LP continued to act as such - certainly whilst the McCanns were still arguidos.
In other words, LP did what the PJ asked them to do for them.



She was actually interviewd and gave a statement to the British police at the Leics. Police Headquarters on the 14th inst. April, 2008, Tigger.




''I was interviewed on DVD, by DC GIERC of the Leicestershire Police between 10h09 and 10h54 on Monday, 14th of April of 2008 in the Leicestershire police headquarters. I can affirm that my statement on DVD is truthful and in accord with my understanding.''


Yes, I know that - the content of my post still applies. LP police station is very likely where LP officers would be taking statements and doing interviews, whether on request from another police force or not.



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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by tigger on 19.02.14 17:58

@tigger wrote:
@diatribe wrote:
@tigger wrote:
.

I would think that her statement was - as all the rogatory statements were - at the request of the PJ and the PJ were actually observing some of the interviews. The LP were sent to PdL as liaison officers and LP continued to act as such - certainly whilst the McCanns were still arguidos.
In other words, LP did what the PJ asked them to do for them.



She was actually interviewd and gave a statement to the British police at the Leics. Police Headquarters on the 14th inst. April, 2008, Tigger.




''I was interviewed on DVD, by DC GIERC of the Leicestershire Police between 10h09 and 10h54 on Monday, 14th of April of 2008 in the Leicestershire police headquarters. I can affirm that my statement on DVD is truthful and in accord with my understanding.''


Yes, I know that -  the content of my post still applies. LP police station is very likely where LP officers would be taking statements and doing interviews, whether  on request from another police force or not.



I know you're busy on another topic, but I thought I'd pull this up to make sure you don't miss it.

I hope it's clear now.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 19.02.14 18:05

@ultimaThule wrote:
diat wrote:
I

According to your interpretation of the law in these matters, the only course of justice Catriona Baker can be accused of perverting is that of Portugal in which case, regardless of whether she gave her statement to little green from Mars or blue clad coppers in Leicestershire, in your unique opinion she cannot be arrested or tried in the UK for any crime she is alleged to have committed abroad.

If you continue to interpret the law every which way in order to suit your purpose, you'll tie yourself in knots.
I'm really beginning to despair with you Ultima, the clue is in the fact that she made her statement in the UK, not Portugal. Therefore if the statement is false and she was attempting to pervert the course of justice, she would have been committing a crime within the Jurisdiction of the UK.

The offence of perverting the course of justice, if indeed it was an attempt to do so, would be dealt with independently to anything relating to the McCanns and the disappearance of their daughter in Portugal. Its a totally different matter which would involve a separate trial. Had she made the statement in Portugal and it transpired to be false, she would be tried in Portugal, but being as she made it here, it would be more likely to be tried here.

If you made a racist remark contravening a UK law which affected a native in Bangladesh, you wouldn't expect to be be tried in Bangladesh, although by your pub science reasoning, you might.

                                          Yours,

                                        Houdini.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 19.02.14 18:22

@tigger wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@diatribe wrote:
@tigger wrote:
.

I would think that her statement was - as all the rogatory statements were - at the request of the PJ and the PJ were actually observing some of the interviews. The LP were sent to PdL as liaison officers and LP continued to act as such - certainly whilst the McCanns were still arguidos.
In other words, LP did what the PJ asked them to do for them.



She was actually interviewd and gave a statement to the British police at the Leics. Police Headquarters on the 14th inst. April, 2008, Tigger.




''I was interviewed on DVD, by DC GIERC of the Leicestershire Police between 10h09 and 10h54 on Monday, 14th of April of 2008 in the Leicestershire police headquarters. I can affirm that my statement on DVD is truthful and in accord with my understanding.''


Yes, I know that -  the content of my post still applies. LP police station is very likely where LP officers would be taking statements and doing interviews, whether  on request from another police force or not.



I know you're busy on another topic, but I thought I'd pull this up to make sure you don't miss it.

I hope it's clear now.

I did in fact notice your posting and I'm not disputing the fact that the statement was taken at the behest of the PJ, I was merely stating that it was taken by the Leics. police in Leicester. I wasn't trying to prove any point here and was merely attempting to determine other's opinions on the credibility of it, because there are a number of contributors who are of the opinion Madeleine disappeared prior to the time she was purportedly in the company of this nanny.

There wasn't any adversarial motive to my posting the time and place of the interview. big grin

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by tigger on 19.02.14 18:27

@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
diat wrote:
I

According to your interpretation of the law in these matters, the only course of justice Catriona Baker can be accused of perverting is that of Portugal in which case, regardless of whether she gave her statement to little green from Mars or blue clad coppers in Leicestershire, in your unique opinion she cannot be arrested or tried in the UK for any crime she is alleged to have committed abroad.

If you continue to interpret the law every which way in order to suit your purpose, you'll tie yourself in knots.
I'm really beginning to despair with you Ultima, the clue is in the fact that she made her statement in the UK, not Portugal. Therefore if the statement is false and she was attempting to pervert the course of justice, she would have been committing a crime within the Jurisdiction of the UK.

The offence of perverting the course of justice, if indeed it was an attempt to do so, would be dealt with independently to anything relating to the McCanns and the disappearance of their daughter in Portugal. Its a totally different matter which would involve a separate trial. Had she made the statement in Portugal and it transpired to be false, she would be tried in Portugal, but being as she made it here, it would be more likely to be tried here.

If you made a racist remark contravening a UK law which affected a native in Bangladesh, you wouldn't expect to be be tried in Bangladesh, although by your pub science reasoning, you might.

                                          Yours,

                                        Houdini.

It seems impossible for you to grasp the fact that the rogatory interviews were at the request of the
McCanns and the letter in which they asked the PJ to instigate these interviews is easily found in McCannfiles and here too.
The PJ then spent some months setting dates for these interviews and since most if not all of those on the list lived and worked in the UK, these interviews took place in the UK. Iirc not all of them at LP.
Some in Devon I think.
It doesn't matter who lied in those interviews, it is part of the evidential material of the PJ, who had to apply to the Home Office to obtain the cooperation of the UK police. It's up to them to act on the evidence supplied.


Your analogy about Bangla desh escapes me and frankly doesn't interest me either.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by ultimaThule on 19.02.14 18:41

confused  just talk me through how anyone can be tried according to the law of England/Wales for perverting the course of Portuguese justice?

If you are saying that making a false statement to UK police in relation to a crime which took place in Portugal is a stand alone offence which can be tried under English law and that the charge would be perverting the course of justice, can you point me in the direction of where I can find the relevant Act, or cite a similar case?

You see, I don't get your reasoning and perhaps you could also explain the difference, if any, between making a voluntary statement to the police and making a statement under caution and how this would affect any subsequent charge(s) if it were found that either was false?
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 19.02.14 18:56

I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.

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actual time of disappearance

Post by gcampbell on 19.02.14 19:27

@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
what about the dogs ,scent in the car?

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by ultimaThule on 19.02.14 19:38

@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
This seems entirely logical to me and, of course, the body was long gone by the time the pantomime took place but I very much doubt it went into the sea although, of course, ROB & MO went 'a mile' out in a catamaran and much was made of one or t'other falling overboard and having their life saved by the one who was a less experienced sailor which caused them to be late back with the craft.


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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 19.02.14 19:49

ultimaThule just talk me through how anyone can be tried according to the law of England/Wales for perverting the course of Portuguese justice?

Well, Ultima, maybe I got the idea from you
 
ultimaThuleI'' agree with Bellisa in classing Catriona Baker as an unreliable witness and it's unlikely it will take much for her to roll over - arrest on suspicion of perverting the course of justice, maximum term life imprisonment, should serve to induce perfect recall and more especially when its pointed out that, given the heinous nature of the crime(s) and the notoriety of the case, conviction is likely to attract a sentence of considerably more than the 3.5 years handed down to Maxine Carr for the same offence.''

Presumably, by comparing the sentence Catriona Baker might conceivably receive for perverting the couse of justice to that of Maxine Carr, who if my memory serves me correctly received that sentence at the CCC, one could be reasonably excused for opining that you considered she would also be sentenced in a UK court. Otherwise, why not equate her likely fate with a person convicted of a similar offence in a Portugese court.

 
If you are saying that making a false statement to UK police in relation to a crime which took place in Portugal is a stand alone offence which can be tried under English law and that the charge would be perverting the course of justice, can you point me in the direction of where I can find the relevant Act, or cite a similar case?


If you care to read my original posting regarding this matter, you will find that I wasn't definitive, hence the word 'might,'

''You might actually have a case for arresting her in the UK, because if I remember correctly, she made her statement to the Leics. police, not the PJ.''

 You see, I don't get your reasoning and perhaps you could also explain the difference, if any, between making a voluntary statement to the police and making a statement under caution and how this would affect any subsequent charge(s) if it were found that either was false?

I wouldn't think there would be any difference whatsoever, if the statement was false, it wouldn't make any difference as to whether it was made under caution or on a voluntary basis. I fail to see what point, if any, you are attempting to make here.





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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 19.02.14 19:54

@gcampbell wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
what about the dogs ,scent in the car?
I am saying that Madeleine died in the apartment, just earlier that the 3rd. I am no expert but I should imagine that it would be possible to transfer the scent on items belonging to the McCann's to the hire car. I don't believe that Madeleine's body was ever transported in it.

The make up photo haunts me, I always wonder if this was taken just after death occurred. The background is consistent with apartments that you see in Portugal, even the blue plastic, again consistent with the blue chairs seen on various balcony's out there.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 19.02.14 19:59

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
This seems entirely logical to me and, of course, the body was long gone by the time the pantomime took place but I very much doubt it went into the sea although, of course, ROB & MO went 'a mile' out in a catamaran and much was made of one or t'other falling overboard and having their life saved by the one who was a less experienced sailor which caused them to be late back with the craft.


I must have missed that about ROB&MO going a mile out to sea. Where will I find this info? Thanks.
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by sami on 19.02.14 20:08

@Hicks wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
This seems entirely logical to me and, of course, the body was long gone by the time the pantomime took place but I very much doubt it went into the sea although, of course, ROB & MO went 'a mile' out in a catamaran and much was made of one or t'other falling overboard and having their life saved by the one who was a less experienced sailor which caused them to be late back with the craft.


I must have missed that about ROB&MO going a mile out to sea. Where will I find this info? Thanks.


Was that the day they went out with the Gorrod man, whom Tanner knew from home, who had a hire car ?  Hicks it is possible Dianne Webster mentioned it, but I don't have time to look now.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 19.02.14 20:13

@sami wrote:
@Hicks wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
This seems entirely logical to me and, of course, the body was long gone by the time the pantomime took place but I very much doubt it went into the sea although, of course, ROB & MO went 'a mile' out in a catamaran and much was made of one or t'other falling overboard and having their life saved by the one who was a less experienced sailor which caused them to be late back with the craft.


I must have missed that about ROB&MO going a mile out to sea. Where will I find this info? Thanks.


Was that the day they went out with the Gorrod man, whom Tanner knew from home, who had a hire car ?  Hicks it is possible Dianne Webster mentioned it, but I don't have time to look now.
Okay thanks. That's a start.
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by diatribe on 19.02.14 20:16

@ultimaThule wrote:
This seems entirely logical to me and, of course, the body was long gone by the time the pantomime took place but I very much doubt it went into the sea although, of course, ROB & MO went 'a mile' out in a catamaran and much was made of one or t'other falling overboard and having their life saved by the one who was a less experienced sailor which caused them to be late back with the craft.



So, t'would appear that we can agree on some issues.

1/ There wasn't a kidnapping

2/The body was disposed of prior to the McCanns leaving their apt. for the Tapas bar at circa 8.30pm.

3/The body was disposed of inland in the PDL locality, at least initially.

If we are correct in our assumptions, then the key to solving the disappearance of the McCann's daughter lies with the child minder, Catriona Baker, who, if she is lying has in effect provided the McCanns with an alibi for the timing of the disappearance. If this is the case, I'm surprised there hasn't been more police attention focused on her both here in the UK and Portugal.

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 19.02.14 20:37

Wow, all this info is interesting. Hope it is ok to post link here.
Please take the time to read on a bit. The Gorrods, Murat, Jane Tanner and her partner ROB, didn't know that he was an expert in OCEANOGRAGPHY!!

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t1418p20-james-and-charlotte-gorrod.
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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by j.rob on 20.02.14 13:28

@Hicks wrote:I am pretty certain that the twins were drugged, question is, why? Could it be that the abduction was planned twenty four hours earlier? The twins would need to be drugged so that the screaming and shouting of the parents would not be seen/ heard by them. The McCann's would not want the twins to have any memory of that night.

I tend to believe that Madeleine was removed from the apartment on the Wednesday night, hence the Crying story, this invented in order to give the illusion that Madeleine was there on the Wednesday night. Also the mention of the tea stain was to serve the same purpose.

 I firmly believe that Madeleine was most likely taken out beyond the influence of the tides and dropped into the ocean the day before she was reported missing. For me there are multiple possibilities who actually helped the McCann's take the body out to sea. That Exeter connection and Murat. The millionaire friend of the McCann's who lives near Luz, the one who helped with storing their hire car. Paedophiles and their connections within the British elite.
 

All in my opinion.
Yes - think that drugging is a KEY issue here. And, as is so often the case, Kate provides clues as to what happened in her book. She gives much weight to the possibility that the alleged abductor could have entered the apartment the previous evening, tried to drug Madeleine (stain on the top of her pyjamas) which woke up Madeleine and Sean ('why didn't you come when we cried that night?') so he fled empty handed.

It seems a little odd, that on the one hand Kate is suggesting that Madeleine might have been drugged on the Wednesday evening, but on the other hand she woke up a cried. How can we reconcile the two things? Perhaps by the presence of the stain on the Pyjama top - the drugging was not completely successful - hence the abductor may have succeeded during the day on Thursday?

In any event, the presence of the stain on Madeleine's  pyjama top is an 'unexplained detail' (p 63) along with the 'why didn't you come when Sean and I cried last night'. Both details included by Kate to suggest the involvement of a mystery abductor who could have drugged Madeleine and stolen her from her bed without her making a noise. 

By suggesting that the random abductor had given the children drugs it could also 'cover tracks' in the event of toxicology tests being carried out on the twins - or possibly Madeleine, if she had been 'found' before she was removed from the resort.

Kate in her book writes that Madeleine was excessively tired on the afternoon of the last Thursday  -  the day of her disappearance - and suggests this could be because of the attempted drugging (even if some of the drug had ended up on her pyjama top) 'earlier that day or even the night before' (page 130).

So - the inference clearly being that the abductor not only might have drugged Madeleine (and possibly the twins too, at least on the final evening)  on the night before - but maybe even during the day on Thursday. This seems odd - when could the abductor have had unrestricted access to Madeleine during the day on Thursday? During the evening the children were unattended so that makes more sense, but during the day - how and when? Why did Kate suggest this in her book. Was it to place Madeleine as alive and well on the Thursday during the day

I too believe that Wednesday evening was critical - and possibly also Monday/Tuesday days and evenings. By claiming that the alleged abductor stole Madeleine at quite a precise time on Thursday evening, a smokescreen may have been planted for events on previous days or evenings. imo. The Jane Tanner sighting placed a very specific time and place for Madeleine's alleged abduction. The series of checks by the Tapas friends and so on. All (maybe) to detract from what really happened and when, perhaps?

Although it is of course possible that Madeleine was moved around several times, either alive or dead, imo.

Whatever happened, clues are embedded in what the McCanns have said and written. 

So, out of the horses' mouths - Madeleine was drugged........Madeleine 'was taken'........it is likely the twins were sedated too as they didn't wake up on Thursday night despite all the commotion........

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Re: Actual time of disappearance.

Post by Hicks on 20.02.14 14:28

IIRC a cleaner states that when he was at the McCann's apartment block on the Wednesday-6.00pm- he saw a man hiding in the stairwell. The man had a fat face and was wearing two toned sunglasses which the cleaner thought odd as it was fairly dark under there. The man appeared nervous at being seen by the cleaner.

Was this man there to take the body away? I will check again to see if there is any info on cars that were parked outside the apartments on the Wednesday evening. Perhaps he was brought in by someone who would know where and how to hire such a man?

I hope SY have re-interviewed this very important witness.
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