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Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 17.02.14 16:13

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
It's well worth quoting that bit. There are thirty-seven people working on this. That is a LOT of resource to bring to bear, and they've been at it a long time. To me, the ONLY justification for them taking so long to produce anything tangible is that they are dealing with a criminal conspiracy involving many dozens of people. As it happens, I think that is the case.

Yes, that's one of the reasons I believe the investigation is not a white-wash. You could try and pull off a white-wash with a lot less people than that.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Woofer on 17.02.14 16:14

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:  Are 37 experienced murder detectives seriously going to put their careers and reputations at risk by perverting the course of justice?


It's well worth quoting that bit. There are thirty-seven people working on this. That is a LOT of resource to bring to bear, and they've been at it a long time. To me, the ONLY justification for them taking so long to produce anything tangible is that they are dealing with a criminal conspiracy involving many dozens of people. As it happens, I think that is the case.

I agree with that CR.  If its not a whitewash, which in my darker moments I believe, it can only be that there are many tentacles to the case.  When you think of those involved in trying to cover this up, the leads involved.  Just think of the organisations and people we have covered here over the years - they probably all need rounding up and securing a water-tight case.  Anyway this is what I think when I`m in a more positive mood.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 17.02.14 17:30

@Woofer wrote:

they probably all need rounding up and securing a water-tight case. 
Woofer, it seems to me that it would be wiser to avoid commenting about any water, surrounding any Enlish people.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by mysterion on 17.02.14 17:31

Could even be that the disappearance of MBM is a sideshow and something even bigger is going on which not even the McCanns are privy to.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Woofer on 17.02.14 17:37

@marconi wrote:
@Woofer wrote:

they probably all need rounding up and securing a water-tight case. 
Woofer, it seems to me that it would be wiser to avoid commenting about any water, surrounding any Enlish people.

Ha ha   big grin .  

But not so funny for all the thousands of people flooded out ..... and now under threat from disease.
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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Watching on 17.02.14 18:38

@marconi wrote:
@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:

Your command of the English language intrigues me, so varied from post to post.
Watching, you are not the first person who comments the command of my English language.
I think that sometimes I write better than other times. It is possible, I can not Judge it myself. Perhaps it has to do with prepositions which I find difficult to use. Anyway, thanks for the compliment because it could mean that I am improving.
Ah Marconi, not a compliment, more an observation. 

As to improvement?    When comments posted written in perfect English, are then followed by others where you resort to broken English, akin to one step forward, two back - makes it quite impossible for the reader to gauge your progress.   Understandable that the reader might reach a different conclusion than the one you offer by way of explanation for the variances.   As to whether you are improving, I shall leave for you to determine ;-)

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Garrincha on 17.02.14 19:10

Hello Watching – long may you keep on watching (& asking)

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by ultimaThule on 17.02.14 19:58

@lj wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@Doug D wrote:Posting on McCannfiles today:
 
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id232.html
 
By Nigel Moore
14 February 2014 11:30am
 
What the Evening Standard reports:
 
'Mr Hewitt said so far the Yard had not asked the Portugese (sic) authorities to interview or arrest any suspects.'
 
What the Press Association reports:
 
'Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt said that so far no requests to carry out interviews or arrests had been made.'
 
What the Daily Mirror reports:
 
'He said no requests for interviews or arrests have been made so far.'
 
What the Daily Mail reports:
 
'However, the Met Police has refused to comment on the reports - with Mr Hewitt claiming no requests for interviews or arrests have been made so far.'
 
What Martin Hewitt actually said (courtesy of Daily Express):
 
"Nobody has been arrested. We have not asked for anyone to be arrested. So far no one has been interviewed as a witness."
 
- In other words, Mr Hewitt does not rule out the possibility that interview requests have been made, only that 'so far' no interviews have been carried out.
 
This is consistent with the report in Jornal de Notícias, which states that the second letter of request - seemingly a request to interview certain people - has yet to be carried out.
 
………………………………………………….
 
Interestingly they ‘believe’ the Express, which ‘quotes’ Hewitt, whilst the Mail actually attributes some of the story to the Express (bit vague as to which bits though, can be interpreted as some or even all), even though the Express story sits below a ‘burglars’ headline.
 
There has however still been nothing posted about the third letter on the Met Police site, which states:
'Our press releases are usually published first on this web site. We also send our press releases by email to members of the Crime Reporters' Association (CRA) and to the newsdesks of, or appropriate news groups for, media organisations'. 
 
so I take it that Hewitt is talking unofficially (ie not a press release) which falls in line with the Mails 'However, the Met Police has refused to comment on the reports’
 
From personal experience (not in the police though), there would be hell to pay for attributable quotes such as these coming out without formal sanction by the Press Office (content, format, grammar, legal bits, etc – that’s what they’re paid for!) and I have no doubt that this must be the case within the Met. A senior officer such as Hewitt would certainly be aware of  procedural niceties and would not go out on a limb like this unless given the OK, which begs the question ‘Why?’
 
Is this a deliberate attempt to further muddy the waters between the nonsense we have been reading over the last few months and Redwood’s forthcoming ‘truth’.
Very interesting, Doug D, thanks very much for posting this.

There is a very simple comment to make on this. And a very simple question.

COMMENT: The Met Police could have made this perfectly straightforward by making a simple, plain one-paragraph statement e.g. by way of an update on their website, explaining that they've made a 3rd rogatory request, or whatever it was. Instead, as Nigel Moore has brought out so well, we have multiple versions in 5 newspapers.

QUESTION: Why didn't they?

He's listened to Gerry: confusion is good.
BTW that quote is not really Gerry's: it's a very often used one on all educational levels.
Very cleverly done... neither the Yard, the Met, or any other British police force, has the power to send international letters of request to other countries.  

Someone's taken a leaf out of Gerry's borrowed book.   big grin 
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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 18.02.14 2:04

@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:
@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:

Your command of the English language intrigues me, so varied from post to post.
Watching, you are not the first person who comments the command of my English language.
I think that sometimes I write better than other times. It is possible, I can not Judge it myself. Perhaps it has to do with prepositions which I find difficult to use. Anyway, thanks for the compliment because it could mean that I am improving.
Ah Marconi, not a compliment, more an observation. 

As to improvement?    When comments posted written in perfect English, are then followed by others where you resort to broken English, akin to one step forward, two back - makes it quite impossible for the reader to gauge your progress.   Understandable that the reader might reach a different conclusion than the one you offer by way of explanation for the variances.   As to whether you are improving, I shall leave for you to determine ;-)

Would you please write your next post in perfect Portuguese?   Thank you.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by aquila on 18.02.14 2:16

@marconi wrote:
@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:
@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:

Your command of the English language intrigues me, so varied from post to post.
Watching, you are not the first person who comments the command of my English language.
I think that sometimes I write better than other times. It is possible, I can not Judge it myself. Perhaps it has to do with prepositions which I find difficult to use. Anyway, thanks for the compliment because it could mean that I am improving.
Ah Marconi, not a compliment, more an observation. 

As to improvement?    When comments posted written in perfect English, are then followed by others where you resort to broken English, akin to one step forward, two back - makes it quite impossible for the reader to gauge your progress.   Understandable that the reader might reach a different conclusion than the one you offer by way of explanation for the variances.   As to whether you are improving, I shall leave for you to determine ;-)

Would you please write your next post in perfect Portuguese?   Thank you.
Marconi, I think people are quite right to question your posts.

I believe you were temporarily banned from the forum (I realised that due to lack of posting from yourself at the time) and rejoined under another name in the meantime.


ETA: Weren't you Bellum for a little while?
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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Watching on 18.02.14 8:38

@marconi wrote:
@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:
@Watching wrote:
@marconi wrote:

Your command of the English language intrigues me, so varied from post to post.
Watching, you are not the first person who comments the command of my English language.
I think that sometimes I write better than other times. It is possible, I can not Judge it myself. Perhaps it has to do with prepositions which I find difficult to use. Anyway, thanks for the compliment because it could mean that I am improving.
Ah Marconi, not a compliment, more an observation. 

As to improvement?    When comments posted written in perfect English, are then followed by others where you resort to broken English, akin to one step forward, two back - makes it quite impossible for the reader to gauge your progress.   Understandable that the reader might reach a different conclusion than the one you offer by way of explanation for the variances.   As to whether you are improving, I shall leave for you to determine ;-)

Would you please write your next post in perfect Portuguese?   Thank you.
Morning Marconi,

Sadly I am unable to fulfill your request that I write in perfect Portuguese, or otherwise.  I have not the skill. 

I have the highest regard for those who have more than one language under their belt.

The point being made, and I have not a shred of doubt, this you understand, is not one's ability to converse in English, Portuguese or any other language.  It matters not, how well grammatically etc a contributor is able to express an opinion/comment in whatever language.    However, the variances in your posts are quite dramatic, are such that they cannot fail to arouse curiosity, or dare I say it, suspicion! 

My point now made, I will leave it at that.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Watching on 18.02.14 8:39

@Garrincha wrote:Hello Watching – long may you keep on watching (& asking)
Thank you Garrincha - that is my intention!

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by aiyoyo on 18.02.14 11:09

@PeterMac wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I have an insight into what the investigation team may be going through . . .  I can imagine detectives doing the same thing, ensuring that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, until somebody above them orders them to make a move.  The procrastination doesn't have to be about 'milking' the trips to Portugal etc. - the longer something takes to near completion, the more paranoid the team gets that they haven't covered all bases.  At some point, someone in authority will order them to make arrests based on what they have, or drop the case.
Exactly.
Detectives preparing DPP files (as they used to be) were notorious for hanging on, and 'moving commas' trying to make the whole thing absolutely watertight.
One of the jobs of the DS or the DI is to impose deadlines.

The same thing happens with an MA or PhD dissertation.  At some point you have to let it go.

Perhaps there's only one ILOR and subsequent ones are just amendments to first one.
The Letter of Request/s may have nothing to do with MET requiring PJ to carry out intelligence.
It may be protocol - documents between CPS and Public Ministry - to dot the I's and cross the T's that they're in accord, everything watertight, getting every document up-to-date and in place, getting ready to drag a screaming and kicking couple into dock.
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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by jozi on 18.02.14 11:44

@aiyoyo wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I have an insight into what the investigation team may be going through . . .  I can imagine detectives doing the same thing, ensuring that all the i's are dotted and the t's are crossed, until somebody above them orders them to make a move.  The procrastination doesn't have to be about 'milking' the trips to Portugal etc. - the longer something takes to near completion, the more paranoid the team gets that they haven't covered all bases.  At some point, someone in authority will order them to make arrests based on what they have, or drop the case.
Exactly.
Detectives preparing DPP files (as they used to be) were notorious for hanging on, and 'moving commas' trying to make the whole thing absolutely watertight.
One of the jobs of the DS or the DI is to impose deadlines.

The same thing happens with an MA or PhD dissertation.  At some point you have to let it go.

Perhaps there's only one ILOR and subsequent ones are just amendments to first one.
The Letter of Request/s may have nothing to do with MET requiring PJ to carry out intelligence.
It may be protocol - documents between CPS and Public Ministry - to dot the I's and cross the T's that they're in accord, everything watertight, getting every document up-to-date and in place, getting ready to drag a screaming and kicking couple into dock.

Well lets hope this is the case,fingers crossed and anything else I can cross LOL.
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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by PeterMac on 18.02.14 12:33

@aiyoyo wrote:
Perhaps there's only one ILOR and subsequent ones are just amendments to first one.

Or requests to open the envelope !

Rather like ordering Retsina.
You have to order two bottles.
The second one to take away the taste of the first.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by lj on 22.02.14 1:29

@mouse wrote:
@HelenMeg wrote:
@RIPM wrote:IMO the case is simple, it is now a contest of ego's, concern over loss of face, who shows sound judgement, about not looking stupid, by politicians, celebrities and the police.

So Portugal's finest police brains came to the conclusion M died in 5a, on the 3rd May 2007 and the Macs were involved.  But now we are expected to accept that SY's finest are telling them they are idiots.  M was abducted and the Macs and Tapas 7 are completely innocent and you the PJ need to spend millions more looking at anything other than the Macs.

There can only be two conclusions, the PJ and  Portuguese Government will never admit they got everything completely wrong, pride and national prestige will never allow it.

SY and the British government will never admit they are completely wrong and the Macs are prime suspects.  Pride and national prestige will never allow it.

So Redwood is the holder of the poisoned chalice.  While publicly stating SY are working with the PJ they are briefing the British media with stories highlighting how useless the PJ were and are by ignoring the reports of burglars etc etc.

Anyone who believes if ever there was a court case, the lies told by SY over creche/Tanner man would be glosssed over is imo simply deluded.

The end result will be, "the PJ will not help us in our enquiries", "they ignore our letters and due to their intransigence, we are unable to proceed any further", M was abducted by persons unknown.

I think that SY and PJ are now working together fine, but there are probably a few people out there who wish they weren't. And those people will also try and create an illusion that they aren't working  together well.
Due to the intense complexities of this case, such that when the PJ came to their original conclusions in 2007, they were given a directive not to pursue the parents by the UK establishments, they have to wind this case up very very carefully. They have to get it right, down to the last detail. They simply cannot afford to make a mess of it, legally, judicially, anyway you like. They have to untangle loose ends, pursue things in a correct fashion, decide who within the large group of protectors is implicated in the concealment or cover up of the death. This could take ages. There are potentially 20's and 30's (if not more) people involved in this. They also have to work within the directive of the British Government in a careful way. DC has decisions to make on just how much of the truth they are 'allowed' to discover.  There are 7 years of 'stuff' to
unclutter. But I am intrigued as to why some people believe that at this stage the PJ and SY are not working together just fine?  I really am certain its the opposite.  I'm really impatient for this to be done and dusted
but I think we have at least a couple of months to wait at least..
Believe me - I may be one of those who question SY's investigation and do not have much faith in it. However, to say those of us who feel this way (and I think I might be speaking for quite a few on this forum) that we do not want to have faith in our boys in blue on this matter I think would be unfair. There is nothing more I would like to see than some progress made on this case - but sadly, all that comes out from SY - the 'Crimewatch Special' the 'Update', as someone else has said the different versions of the programme that went out in different countries, all the press spec. etc. plus only lately we have an editor or deputy of one of Portugal's most famous newspapers stating his thoughts on the SY case regarding the SY's parallel investigation. (see Joane Morais site) ....Doesn't fill one with much faith that these two depts. are working well that well together. Did anybody take that article apart?  And that's before we get to all the old stuff, comments about the PJ's investigation, the little digs at their professionalism, Snr Amaral taken off the case, the SY not even bringing up the dog evidence in the CW Special, nor DP being there.......

I know this wasn't directed at anyone personally, but I wanted to explain why I feel the way I do. Nothing is coming out to show that the two police depts are working well together - if they were - I think we'd all know about it. I am just crossing my fingers for Mr Amaral as he seems to be the only genuine voice I can actually have some faith in. Seriously what is happening with this trial?

 thumbsup thumbsup 

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by marconi on 22.02.14 2:43

None, but none of us have any idea of what is going on among those two police. The PJ are the last one to tell about an investigation. Secrecy of Justice is the law in Portugal. We have to be happy with the few words of the Yard.
And we have to wait.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Seek truth on 22.02.14 7:09

They've had 7 years. They had them on Crimewatch and didn't ask relevant questions, got nothing out of them. Get them to speak more in interviews.

Secrecy law in Portugal? Uk is kept in the dark.
We have the papers saying nothing, why don't they print more of what the tapas staff said. Like how they never searched, played tennis after her disappearance, and went swimming etc. why isn t Amaral interviewed?

If they didn't search and stayed in the room were they protecting the body maybe? The portuguese dogs came that night so i doubt it. They were  just deleting their calls and trying to sleep, and we were told it was around 9pm the police were called, but on the police files the call was made at 10.41pm.

7 years and no questions or reconstruction. A lot of negative stuff about them on Internet, yet they do not appear to explain. Until they do it'll only get worse, the whole world will know. So it's their choice, TALK.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.02.14 7:47

HelenMeg wrote:  "I think that SY and PJ are now working together fine, but there are probably a few people out there who wish they weren't".

Bernard Hogan-Howe publicly conceded (twice): "We are working on different lines of enquiry"

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by SchrodingersBody on 22.02.14 9:10

Working on different lines of enquiry could mean they have opposing views, and each are doing their own thing. Alternatively it could mean that they are each applying approrpiate resource, in tandem, to different areas of investigation. You check here, we'll check there, because that's where we're best placed.

As ever with this case, oen to interpretation, and retrofittable to whichever theory the observer prefers.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by sami on 22.02.14 9:15

@Tony Bennett wrote:
Bernard Hogan-Howe publicly conceded (twice): "We are working on different lines of enquiry"


Indeed.  They said as much from the time Portugal re-opened the investigation.  SY "welcomed" the news, the investigations were going to "compliment" each other and were described as being "parallel".  Parallel lines never meet......so after BHH's interview, those lines are murder in Portugal and sadly stolen by someone else (other than the McCanns) in BHH's mind.

BHH has nailed his colours to the mast now, no surprise to many, but "feeling", and "reading between the lines" are not the same as hearing it from the horses mouth. Now we have.  He is one horse I would not back.  

Strangely though, I am still inclined to believe Redwood has an interest in doing the right thing, whether he and his team can win the battle with his superiors and in particular BHH is doubtful though.  There is something decidedly "off" about BHH, i have a great deal of sympathy for the Grange officers.   Just my own opinion of course.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Bishop Brennan on 22.02.14 9:53

Quick question for everyone.  In this quote from the BHH interview:  

"Sir Bernard added: "We have said ­clearly that we have got lines of inquiry that are different to the Portuguese police and we are working with them to try and resolve that. We really can work in genuine partnership on this.  We're making some progress. Let's see how it comes over the next few months."

He refused to criticise the original Portuguese investigation which was shelved as unsolved in 2008. "No matter what they did or didn't do we have got to work together on this," he said. "We can't police Portugal. They can't do everything over here.
"

What did he mean by "they can't do everything over here".  What are the PJ needing to do "over here?"

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by HelenMeg on 22.02.14 10:05

I feel that we, as the general public, should feel reassured by BHH and what he has to say. Instead, I feel the opposite, strangely un-reassured and with no faith in our
police. He didn't really say anything with certainty. I could have done a better job at sounding as if I had some control. I hope there is more to the man than
we have seen. Hope he is a man of substance. As you say, Redwood gives off a better aura

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by Mirage on 22.02.14 10:06

I wouldn't trust HH as far as I could throw him. I had more faith in Assistant Deputy Commander Martin Hewitt right up to the moment I saw a video of him saying of Gareth William's death (spy body in bag) there was "no (forensic) evidence of a third party". As he spoke I recalled, with a sinking feeling, having read reports that there had been no forensic evidence of GW either, not even round the bath area.

It's so often what they don't say! And MH is heading up Grange.

Here are some other reasons not to be cheerful:

The effusive support of the McCanns by HH on the radio.
His reference to their "torment". A deliberate choice of word IMO knowing there was a sceptic on the the line.
The disingenuous tweet from BBC's Nicky Campbell- he didn't take the bait, did he? when seeking to justify bias against the Portuguese police broadcast live to the nation.
The slight smirk that briefly escaped the otherwise deadpan face of AR when he said "We are fighting for MM"

They are orchestrating a way out of this mess by shovelling it onto the Portuguese IMO. As many have said before, the answer - if it ever comes - will come from Portugal. The McCanns will never be charged with anything in this country IMO.

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Re: Third letter of request sent by SY to Portugal - Tempo of Madeleine inquiry moving forward

Post by HelenMeg on 22.02.14 10:12

@Mirage wrote:I wouldn't trust HH as far as I could throw him. I had more faith in Assistant Deputy Commander Martin Hewitt right up to the moment I saw a video of him saying of Gareth William's death (spy body in bag) there was "no (forensic) evidence of a third party". As he spoke I recalled, with a sinking feeling, having read reports that there had been no forensic evidence of GW either, not even round the bath area.

It's so often what they don't say! And MH is heading up Grange.

Here are some other reasons not to be cheerful:

The effusive support of the McCanns by HH on the radio.
His reference to their "torment". A deliberate choice of word IMO knowing there was a sceptic on the the line.
The disingenuous tweet from BBC's Nicky Campbell- he didn't take the bait, did he? when seeking to justify bias against the Portuguese police broadcast to the nation.
The slight smirk that briefly escaped the otherwise deadpan face of AR when he said "We are fighting for MM"

They are orchestrating a way out of this mess by shovelling it onto the Portuguese IMO. As many have said before, the answer - if it ever comes - will come from Portugal. The McCanns will never be charged with anything in this country IMO.
I tend to agree. I think it is unacceptable for BHH to show sympathy with the MC Canns in his position of responsibility.  It is unprofessional to say anything about a live investigation other than, we are making progress but I cannot expand upon that. He gives the impression he cant cope with his responsibilities and the fact he didnt appear to recognise the name of Operation Grange is beyond belief (maybe he was fooling us..) .  It is a high profile investigation, opened at request of DC - it is causing awkwardness between us and Portugal - yet he cant remember the name of the operation. Is he ill?

HelenMeg

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