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Creche Records

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Creche Records

Post by scrants on 06.02.14 13:28

Does anyone know if there are statements from the parents of William Totman and Alexander Mann who were in the creche with Madeleine on 3 May?

They could perhaps have confirmed if Madeleine was at tea and if anything unusual happened. 

Likewise, the parents of Otis in the Jellyfish group.

I can't find any info on this in the case files.

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Re: Creche Records

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 06.02.14 13:30

@scrants wrote:Does anyone know if there are statements from the parents of William Totman and Alexander Mann who were in the creche with Madeleine on 3 May?

They could perhaps have confirmed if Madeleine was at tea and if anything unusual happened. 

Likewise, the parents of Otis in the Jellyfish group.

I can't find any info on this in the case files.

I can't either. It's unfortunate that the PJ didn't immediately treat the McCanns as suspects, perhaps they didn't take statements from these parents. I've no idea.

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Julian Edward Bartran Totman

Post by Tony Bennett on 06.02.14 14:25

See reference to Julian Edward Bartran Totman at the end of this article]

The original Daily Mail article (end of December 2007), titled “We saw two blond men on balcony next to Madeleine apartment said this:

Although the two sisters contacted Portuguese police within hours of  Madeleine's disappearance, their evidence was ignored for six months. The women met police three times within 24 hours, tried to find out who the strangers were themselves and made several follow-up phone calls to the authorities.
“But it was not until six weeks ago that a formal statement was finally taken.
The two women, both divorcees from Maidstone, Kent, spent 11 hours with British police officers providing details of their evidence and later met private detectives from Metodo 3, the agency employed by the McCanns to find their daughter. They intended to remain anonymous but when their names were leaked to a Portuguese newspaper and they found themselves wrongly accused of waiting eight months before coming forward, they decided to reveal the truth. The sisters said they were immediately struck by the behaviour of the two men on the balcony”.
‘Not until 6 weeks ago’ would mean that the Jensen sisters’ ‘Two blond men’ statement was taken around 13-19 November [six weeks before the end of December}.
It is interesting to look back on what else was happening at that time.
On Tuesday 13 November Brian Kennedy, having flown out to Praia da Luz and met with the Portuguese Police in Portimao, then took his lawyer (and McCann Team lawyer) Edward Smethurst to meet chief suspect Robert Murat (and his lawyer Francisco Pagarete), Murat’s mother, aunt and uncle at a meeting in Uncle Ralph’s villa. The meeting was supposed to be secret, but two weeks later was revealed in the Portuguese press.
On Saturday 17 or Sunday 18 November, at the Rothley Court Manor Hotel, the McCanns, their lawyers, public relations advisers and the Tapas 7 all met at a summit meeting, the exact purpose of which has never been revealed.
On Monday 19 November, a Panorama documentary about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann was shown on BBC TV. There were many stories about Madeleine’s disappearance in the press around this time.
We might note some other features about this story.
It was billed as an ‘Exclusive’. How did that happen? Did the Daily Mail hear about the story and make a bid for it? Did the Jensen sisters approach the Daily Mail?Or did someone else approach the Daily Mail on their behalf? Were the Jensen sisters paid for their story?
The Jensens were very critical of the police. The article stated:
"One of the guys was walking down the steps and as I looked at him, he walked back up and started talking to the other one”. The sisters, who helped search for the child that night, went to police the next day to report the sighting of the strangers and their concerns. Mrs Wiltshire, who went on holiday with her sister to recover from a cancer operation, said: "The theory is that Madeleine could have been targeted. This story proves how easily it could have been done but the Portuguese police were not interested. It makes you wonder if there are more of us out there who have tried and not succeeded in reporting things they saw but have given up. They might not have been as persistent and tenacious as us but we were determined to get the information to the police somehow...Jayne Jensen and her sister Annie Wiltshire even went back in September to try to contact the McCanns…”
But Jayne Jensen did contact the police. In her own words, quoted in the article, she said:
“As the hours passed without any sighting of Madeleine, Mrs Wiltshire became increasingly concerned about the strangers she had seen the day before.  She said: "I didn't know if it was significant or not but I needed to tell the police in case it helped.
"I got a member of Mark Warner's staff to get a policeman to come and see me and told two officers about the men I had seen. I told them they were blond and one had curly hair. One was stockier than the other and they had obviously just opened the gate and walked up to the balcony. I showed the policemen the balcony and as I was explaining the circumstances, Robert Murat appeared and started translating for me." Mr Murat was acting as an unofficial interpreter for the police and Mrs Wiltshire assumed he was part of the police force. Later that day, she and her sister bumped into him again and he asked them if they needed any more help with the police and whether they had remembered anything else. Mrs Jensen said: “He said he was helping the police because he lived locally and he was very helpful." That evening, the two sisters joined the barrister [Rajinder Balu] and his wife for a glass of wine on the balcony of their apartment. They were discussing Madeleine's disappearance and the apparent failure of the police to set up a crime scene when Mr Murat walked past, saw them and joined them uninvited...”
Later, back in England, she says she called police and Crimestoppers and gave them the details about the two men on the balcony and her sightings of Robert Murat, claiming that they said they would ’phones her back, but didn’t.
The article also claims: “In September, the two women went back to Praia da Luz to try to make direct contact with the McCanns but as they arrived, Kate and Gerry were made official suspects and left to return to Britain. The sisters admit they might have let things go at that point, but the constant mention of Madeleine in the press kept nagging at them. In desperation they finally e-mailed the McCanns’ spokesman, Clarence Mitchell, and told him what they knew. Within days, they were contacted by Leicestershire police who apologised for the delay and sent an officer round to interview them. They were there for 11 hours, finishing at midnight and we finally got to sign a statement," added Mrs Jensen. "All we wanted was to get the information to the right people. It is just ridiculous that no one would help us”.
If, as we saw above, the Jensen sisters were interviewed by Leicestershire Police, ‘finishing at midnight’, then that interview would have been on or about 19 November. If the e-mail from the Jensens to Clarence Mitchell was ‘only days before’, then that e-mail must have been sent around the time Brian Kennedy was in Portugal meeting with the Portuguese Police and the Jensens. It still does not tell us when the Jensens’ interview with Gary Hagland and  Julian Rebiniz/Peribañez took place; whether before or after the formal, 11-hour-long police interviews.
One Madeleine McCann researcher noted that after the Daily Mail published the Jensen sisters’ allegations in December 2007, Murat’s mother, Mrs Jenny Murat, was quoted in the Sunday Mail on 30 December 2007 claimed that in their initial statements to the police (withheld by the PJ), the Jensen sisters had not even mentioned seeing Robert Murat. That appears to have come in a later statement they made to the Portuguese Police in September (presumably on their visit to Praia da Luz). But neither of those statements is in the Portuguese Police files. 
As a final note on the Jensen sisters, their booking history at the Ocean Club had some unusual features. The earliest printed OC guest list is dated 1 May.  On that list her booking is in the name of Jayne Marie Jensen G4J.  Jayne Jensen’s booking changed twice . We have been led to believe that these two sisters were out there together the whole time, but if this is true, why did the booking name change to reflect two names (Annie Wiltshire was added), just days before they were due to leave? Also, they apparently decided to extended their holiday by one week sometime on 2 May. The Ocean Club report dated the 3 May was run at 1.16am.  This means that sometime during the 2 May, the Jensen sisters felt the need to extend their holiday by one week.
During her stay, she had some interesting neighbours in her block.

From 26 April to 5 May in G4B -  Beverley Ann Carruthers (works in NHS)

From 6 to 12 May in G4B  - Psychologist Martin J Alderton (called in to help McCanns)

From early on 4 May the McCanns were moved to G4G

28 April to 5 May  in G4I -  Sandra Bowness

28 April to 5 May in G4L - Jeni Weinburger (left early)

29 April to 4 May, extended to 12 May in G4M - Julian Edward Bartran Totman (had child in Madeleine’s group)

26 April to 4 May or 5 May  in G4N -  Naylor family  (private owner booking)

28 April to 4 May  G4O - Bridget O’Donnell & Jeremy Wilkins

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Re: Creche Records

Post by NickE on 06.02.14 15:03

@scrants wrote:Does anyone know if there are statements from the parents of William Totman and Alexander Mann who were in the creche with Madeleine on 3 May?

They could perhaps have confirmed if Madeleine was at tea and if anything unusual happened. 

Likewise, the parents of Otis in the Jellyfish group.

I can't find any info on this in the case files.
I don´t think MM was at creche at all,May 3rd. 
GM signed in R Naylors daughter Elizabeth, and he wrote Madeleine's name,but she was not there.

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Re: Creche Records

Post by Guest on 12.02.14 20:43

So which apartment were the O'Briens actually staying in?  The child is signed in as staying in 5B twice and G5D three times.  


29/4/07...........G5D

30/4/07.......... 5B

01/5/07.......... 5B

02/5/07.........  G5D

03/5/07.........  G5D


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id351.html


????
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Re: Creche Records

Post by russiandoll on 14.02.14 15:34

@NickE wrote:
@scrants wrote:Does anyone know if there are statements from the parents of William Totman and Alexander Mann who were in the creche with Madeleine on 3 May?

They could perhaps have confirmed if Madeleine was at tea and if anything unusual happened. 

Likewise, the parents of Otis in the Jellyfish group.

I can't find any info on this in the case files.
I don´t think MM was at creche at all,May 3rd. 
GM signed in R Naylors daughter Elizabeth, and he wrote Madeleine's name,but she was not there.


   compare with the writing by Gerry on his wider agenda chart :


  

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Re: Creche Records

Post by sallypelt on 14.02.14 15:45

And take particular notice of the "B" in Elizabeth, on the crèche sheet, and the "B" in objective, on the "Wider Agenda".

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Re: Creche Records

Post by tiny on 14.02.14 15:48

The r,s and u,s are the same Imo
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Re: Creche Records

Post by sallypelt on 14.02.14 15:50

@tiny wrote:The r,s and u,s are the same Imo

As are the A's. Notice the down stroke at that start of each A. Both on the crèche sheet and the Wider Agenda chart

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Re: Creche Records

Post by tiny on 14.02.14 15:54

Why would the naylors let Gerry sign their daughter in.
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Re: Creche Records

Post by russiandoll on 14.02.14 16:15

I note the little flick at the start of the A is missing on the chart, however this might be explained, as might other slight differences, by the fact that Gerry would have been using a felt tip for the chart. Note the same R, the loop does not meet the vertical.

  I have taught for 20 years, and without exception every teacher whose work I have had to wipe from a board before using it, has outlined writing using a square, rectangle, circle or oval. I have never seen what Gerry has used, which is reminiscent of this.

 Note also Gerry's multiple underlining of the word KEY.






                  

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Re: Creche Records

Post by sallypelt on 14.02.14 16:19

I have blown up both the crèche sheet and the wider agenda, and I can see without a doubt, that the "E" is exactly the same on both lists. It looks like a £ sign. I don't know how to post the pics here.

Edited to add, look at the E at the end of "SUMMATIVE, at the top of the wider agenda chart, and then compare it with the E in Elizabeth, on the crèche sheet

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Re: Creche Records

Post by sallypelt on 14.02.14 16:28

And another obvious similarity is the "H". Look at the H in "THE" in "THE WIDER AGENDA" at the bottom of the chart, and then compare it with the "H" in ELIZABETH. Exactly the same. The crossbar of the H starts at the middle of the left-hand downward bar, and ends at the top of the right-hand bar. There's no doubt that both the writing on the crèche sheet and Gerry McCann's writing, is one and the same.

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Re: Creche Records

Post by russiandoll on 14.02.14 16:45

Could someone please post an enlarged copy of the wider agenda chart? There is no way of enlarging the one I posted.
 thanks.

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Re: Creche Records

Post by tiny on 14.02.14 16:53

@sallypelt wrote:And another obvious similarity is the "H". Look at the H in "THE" in "THE WIDER AGENDA" at the bottom of the chart, and then compare it with the "H" in ELIZABETH. Exactly the same. The crossbar of the H starts at the middle of the left-hand downward bar, and ends at the top of the right-hand bar. There's no doubt that both the writing on the crèche sheet and Gerry McCann's writing, is one and the same.
spot on,but why would the naylors let Gerry do this.is there a statement from Naylor,i have looked but I cant find one
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Re: Creche Records

Post by sallypelt on 14.02.14 16:56

@tiny wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:And another obvious similarity is the "H". Look at the H in "THE" in "THE WIDER AGENDA" at the bottom of the chart, and then compare it with the "H" in ELIZABETH. Exactly the same. The crossbar of the H starts at the middle of the left-hand downward bar, and ends at the top of the right-hand bar. There's no doubt that both the writing on the crèche sheet and Gerry McCann's writing, is one and the same.
spot on,but why would the naylors let Gerry do this.is there a statement from Naylor,i have looked but I cant find one

Tiny, I have no idea, and I am not about to speculate. That is for those who have, so far, had a few million pounds to find out the TRUTH!

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Re: Creche Records

Post by russiandoll on 14.02.14 17:01

Look at the M s on the chart and look at this crèche record where the AM and PM have been separated, the H in the Naylor girl's name has the same feature.
 Her name has been entered as a correction to what appears to be her father's name.


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Re: Creche Records

Post by russiandoll on 25.02.14 10:53

Can't manage to copy over in a size which will show entire sheets, so perhaps if members interested could look at crèche records for afternoons 30th April and 3rd May, they might agree with me that the handwriting and way of writing numbers suggest that Gerry entered Kate's name and the times for Maddie's crèche sheets for these days.

Tried multiple times to copy these sheets, looked fine on preview but only a partial sheet, [ minus the right hand side ] shows on publish.

 If anyone could copy over [ and tell me how you did it ] these 2 sheets, I would be very grateful !

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~John F. Kennedy

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Re: Creche Records

Post by sami on 25.02.14 11:16

I cannot help you with the technical issues, sorry.  One thing that strikes me about the records though is that all but once Madeleine was signed out by Kate using the surname McCann.  Once she uses Healy.

In her book she makes it clear she only became known as McCann after Madeleine's disappearance.  Healy would have been the more natural signature for her then, surely ?

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