Why Operation Grange can only be a whitewash

Cristobell wrote:

RIPM wrote:Operation Grange's 'elite' detectives have examined everything, excepting nothing and after months of painstaking analysis, have concluded 5 things are certainly not in dispute and have put them in the public domain.

The last poolside photo is genuine and undoctored or altered in any way.

The weather around 1pm on Thursday 3rd May 2007 was hot and sunny.

The photo shows M alive and well on Thursday 3rd May 2007.

The weather remained warm well into the late hours of Thursday 3rd May 2007.

JT is a completely reliable witness with remarkable powers of observation, it is just unfortunate the person she saw was an innocent 
holidaymaker.

Redwood and his team of 'elite' detectives have so far spent 7 million pounds accessing all this data so either certain posters are being mischevious by stating the weather was cold and not sunny, or Redwood is running a whitewash, ignoring anything which does not help the Macs case, ie.  the weather or dogs etc;

so its a whitewash for me.

Sometimes we get caught up in the minutiae when we should really be looking at the bigger picture.  Scotland Yard are dealing with criminal minds, ergo they are probably having to tell quite a few porkies of their own in order to maintain a dialogue with the principal players.

Whether it was hot and sunny or cold and windy and whether M was alive or not on Thursday is hardly minutiae and it is not meant for knowledgeable people on here.
 This information is meant for the general British public and is to show that SY believe the Macs version of events is basically correct.

 No case will ever get a conviction if it can be shown the police have lied and lied again and their evidence is totally flawed but that of course is Redwood's aim.

russiandoll wrote:This was in the Guardian last week :

  Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.


 Any ideas as to what SY might have uncovered in their investigation which has brought about this statement from AR?

  he is not ref to a typical abduct_ assault - murder- dump scenario but a death prior to body removal.

 They have found some evidence suggestive of a corpse in the apartment. What could it be?

Are you daring to wonder if SY have finally seen the elephant in the room ?  And had an `Ah-ha` moment.

Woofer wrote:

russiandoll wrote:This was in the Guardian last week :

  Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.


 Any ideas as to what SY might have uncovered in their investigation which has brought about this statement from AR?

  he is not ref to a typical abduct_ assault - murder- dump scenario but a death prior to body removal.

 They have found some evidence suggestive of a corpse in the apartment. What could it be?

Are you daring to wonder if SY have finally seen the elephant in the room ?  And had an `Ah-ha` moment?.

Are you daring to wonder if SY have finally seen the DOGS in the room? And had an 'Ah-ha' moment?

Dantezebu:
‘I believe the Guardian corrected their article because they misquoted Andy Redwood. Not because of any pressure from the MCs’.
 
But the course of events suggests this can’t be right, because the original Guardian story was correct.
 
The Guardian jumped from Version 1,which suggested that there may have been no abduction and which was immediately whooshed, to Version 2, which made no mention at all of abduction & introduced the possibility of M. not being alive when she was removed from the apartment, then to Version 3 which just added clarity to V2.
 
The ‘correction & clarification’ reverted us back to Version 1, bringing back the abduction theory, but with the ‘may not necessarily follow with all our thinking’ proviso, and then adding the possible 'not being alive when removed from 5A' scenario to the story.
 
So who/what made them immediately change V1 to V2, when what was initially quoted was seemingly an accurate reporting of Redwood’s briefing.
 
I can only think there must have been a panic reaction from TM on seeing the abduction theory being put out to grass, thereby starting to bring down their house of cards, to which the Guardian immediately responded, but once it was pointed out that they were then misquoting Redwood, they had to revert back to contextually quote what he had actually said, which, by also including the possibility of not being alive when removed from the apartment, actually made the report worse from a TM viewpoint.
 
(I haven’t brought the Guardian reports out again, but the three versions & the correction can be found in the ‘Game Over’ thread at 1.00 yesterday if people want to refer to them).

russiandoll wrote:This was in the Guardian last week :

  Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.


 Any ideas as to what SY might have uncovered in their investigation which has brought about this statement from AR?

  he is not ref to a typical abduct_ assault - murder- dump scenario but a death prior to body removal.

 They have found some evidence suggestive of a corpse in the apartment. What could it be?

Or perhaps the Portugese investigation is progressing with additional new evidence that re-confirms the dogs findings and SY have to at the very least be seen to acknowledge it, or look like fools when the basis of the PJs new investigation comes to be public knowledge.

dantezebu wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

russiandoll wrote:This was in the Guardian last week :

 [size=12.727272033691406] Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.[/size]


[size=12.727272033691406] Any ideas as to what SY might have uncovered in their investigation which has brought about this statement from AR?[/size]

[size=12.727272033691406]  he is not ref to a typical abduct_ assault - murder- dump scenario but a death prior to body removal.[/size]

[size=12.727272033691406] They have found some evidence suggestive of a corpse in the apartment. What could it be?[/size]

The dogs would be too obvious, it may be 7 years on, forensic science has advanced to a point where the original evidence has proved conclusive.

I don't think DCI Redwood can suggest death in the apartment without something substantial to back it up.  Look how quickly the McCanns leapt on The Mirror for including Madeleine in with their 'Mysteries' feature, and the speed with which the Guardian corrected their article.  There must have been a hell of a fight over the exact wording of the Guardian piece, but it looks as though SY won, because the suggestion that Madeleine died in the apartment remains the same and hasn't been withdrawn.

The papers may be full of Smellyman nonsense, but I doubt for one moment the McCanns feel as though they are home and dry.  They are about to lose what remains of their fortune on ill advised proceedings they brought against another detective for saying the same thing as DCI Redwood!

If DCI Redwood is referring to the evidence of the dogs, then it must include Kate's clothes and the hire car.

Cristobell, I believe the Guardian corrected their article because they misquoted Andy Redwood. Not because of any pressure from the MCs.
The correction in my opinion added the doubt about the abduction into the scenario, as well as keeping the doubt about Madeleine being alive when removed from 5a. Hardly something TM would be happy about.

eta he didn't suggest she may have died in the apartment, only that she was maybe not alive when removed.

Hi Dantezebu, I still think Guardian were lean't on, but the McCanns did not get the result they wanted.  Once a newspaper has gone to print they won't correct anything unless someone tells them.  It was only a few weeks ago, that the Times too, had to print a correction on behalf of the McCanns, and only last week, the Mirror were forced to whoosh a story that suggested Madeleine's disappearance was a mystery.  Those libel lawyers are still beavering away but I doubt its pro bono.

As for not alive when removed from the apartment, err, doesn't that mean dead?  Ie, died in the apartment.

Keeping interpretation options open I think Cristobell.

Yes, dead when removed from apartment, but not necessarily died in the apartment, (could have been moved in & then out again).

Cristobell wrote:

dantezebu wrote:

Cristobell wrote:

russiandoll wrote:This was in the Guardian last week :

 [size=12.727272033691406] Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood admitted that what they have uncovered means Madeleine might not have left the apartment alive.[/size]


[size=12.727272033691406] Any ideas as to what SY might have uncovered in their investigation which has brought about this statement from AR?[/size]

[size=12.727272033691406]  he is not ref to a typical abduct_ assault - murder- dump scenario but a death prior to body removal.[/size]

[size=12.727272033691406] They have found some evidence suggestive of a corpse in the apartment. What could it be?[/size]

The dogs would be too obvious, it may be 7 years on, forensic science has advanced to a point where the original evidence has proved conclusive.

I don't think DCI Redwood can suggest death in the apartment without something substantial to back it up.  Look how quickly the McCanns leapt on The Mirror for including Madeleine in with their 'Mysteries' feature, and the speed with which the Guardian corrected their article.  There must have been a hell of a fight over the exact wording of the Guardian piece, but it looks as though SY won, because the suggestion that Madeleine died in the apartment remains the same and hasn't been withdrawn.

The papers may be full of Smellyman nonsense, but I doubt for one moment the McCanns feel as though they are home and dry.  They are about to lose what remains of their fortune on ill advised proceedings they brought against another detective for saying the same thing as DCI Redwood!

If DCI Redwood is referring to the evidence of the dogs, then it must include Kate's clothes and the hire car.

Cristobell, I believe the Guardian corrected their article because they misquoted Andy Redwood. Not because of any pressure from the MCs.
The correction in my opinion added the doubt about the abduction into the scenario, as well as keeping the doubt about Madeleine being alive when removed from 5a. Hardly something TM would be happy about.

eta he didn't suggest she may have died in the apartment, only that she was maybe not alive when removed.

Hi Dantezebu, I still think Guardian were lean't on, but the McCanns did not get the result they wanted.  Once a newspaper has gone to print they won't correct anything unless someone tells them.  It was only a few weeks ago, that the Times too, had to print a correction on behalf of the McCanns, and only last week, the Mirror were forced to whoosh a story that suggested Madeleine's disappearance was a mystery.  Those libel lawyers are still beavering away but I doubt its pro bono.

As for not alive when removed from the apartment, err, doesn't that mean dead?  Ie, died in the apartment.

Not necessarily Cristobell. Not alive when removed, I take to mean just that. She could have died elsewhere and been taken back to the apartment before then being taken out again. I am not saying that was the case just that I prefer keep to what was actually said.
As regards the Guardian correction, it was in direct response to an email I wrote to them pointing out the inconsistancies in their stories.
The correction was sent to me several hours before appearing online.

But who or what caused the original, seemingly correct story to be whooshed then?

Doug D wrote:Keeping interpretation options open I think Cristobell.

Yes, dead when removed from apartment, but not necessarily died in the apartment, (could have been moved in & then out again).

IMO the child was dead before she entered 5A for the last time as, given the only two places in the apartment where the EVRD dog indicated cadaverine, I fail to understand why an injured and/or dying child, would be laid on the floor behind the sofa or by the wardrobe when it would be more appropriate to place her on the sofa, a bed, or even the table, to tend her.

The alternative is that the McCanns were even more unfeeling and uncaring about their eldest daughter than I've hitherto given them credit for.

Doug D wrote:But who or what caused the original, seemingly correct story to be whooshed then?

The reason I was given was that the first article from the PA was replaced by the staff reporters article when he returned from the press conference.

Yet both V1 & V2 timed at 11.43!

If someone at McCannfiles hadn't been really on the ball, V1 would have just disappeared forever and no one would have known about Redwood's doubts about the abduction, as none of the other papers were prepared to even report it.
None of this was mentioned in the official press release don't forget, which is what the other papers have just regurgitated.

Well done to McCannfiles and also to Dantezebu for stirring them up & causing a back-pedal, even if their explanations don't ring true.

RIPM wrote:Operation Grange's 'elite' detectives have examined everything, excepting nothing and after months of painstaking analysis, have concluded 5 things are certainly not in dispute and have put them in the public domain.

The last poolside photo is genuine and undoctored or altered in any way.

The weather around 1pm on Thursday 3rd May 2007 was hot and sunny.

The photo shows M alive and well on Thursday 3rd May 2007.

The weather remained warm well into the late hours of Thursday 3rd May 2007.

JT is a completely reliable witness with remarkable powers of observation, it is just unfortunate the person she saw was an innocent 
holidaymaker.

Redwood and his team of 'elite' detectives have so far spent 7 million pounds accessing all this data so either certain posters are being mischevious by stating the weather was cold and not sunny, or Redwood is running a whitewash, ignoring anything which does not help the Macs case, ie.  the weather or dogs etc;

so its a whitewash for me.

* * * * * * *

I have spent much time reading threads and news recently but this somehow passed me by - when and where have SR commented on the 'last photo' or the weather please anybody? Is there a link to that?
There are several reasons why I question the 'last photo' - not least the delay in release. What really makes me wonder though is the fact it doesn't have a starring role in the bewk - why? No holiday photos in there AT ALL! Bizarre in the extreme imo - the one photo you'd expect to feature yet doesn't - has to be a VERY good reason, IMO.
Would be very interested in the reasoning behind such a conclusion...

Dastardly quote box! Can't fix sorry

ultimaThule wrote:

Doug D wrote:Keeping interpretation options open I think Cristobell.

Yes, dead when removed from apartment, but not necessarily died in the apartment, (could have been moved in & then out again).

IMO the child was dead before she entered 5A for the last time as, given the only two places in the apartment where the EVRD dog indicated cadaverine, I fail to understand why an injured and/or dying child, would be laid on the floor behind the sofa or by the wardrobe when it would be more appropriate to place her on the sofa, a bed, or even the table, to tend her.

The alternative is that the McCanns were even more unfeeling and uncaring about their eldest daughter than I've hitherto given them credit for.

It is possible that she fell elsewhere but there is the problem of the bloodspray pattern behind the sofa which goes quite high up the wall and may be the result of an attempt at resuscitation although I recall seeing a clip of Brunt early September where he says the blood pattern is indicative of a broken hyoid bone - make of that what you will,  Maddie  entered the OC alive and died there, according to the PJ and the dogs.

SY  need to close the whole circus down imo.
They've let JT off the hook. No liar, just misinterpretation. Off you go.
This leaves them free to launch and retract different versions of a ' 99% dead' scenario which involves any number of creepy extras but leaves out TM. So far they haven't hit on one that will fly but meanwhile the public is getting value for money as all these creepy characters are paraded in the press. The boys in blue are working hard it seems.
Just not exactly at justice for Maddie, that  may not have been in the remit after all.

tigger wrote:

ultimaThule wrote:

Doug D wrote:Keeping interpretation options open I think Cristobell.

Yes, dead when removed from apartment, but not necessarily died in the apartment, (could have been moved in & then out again).

IMO the child was dead before she entered 5A for the last time as, given the only two places in the apartment where the EVRD dog indicated cadaverine, I fail to understand why an injured and/or dying child, would be laid on the floor behind the sofa or by the wardrobe when it would be more appropriate to place her on the sofa, a bed, or even the table, to tend her.

The alternative is that the McCanns were even more unfeeling and uncaring about their eldest daughter than I've hitherto given them credit for.

It is possible that she fell elsewhere but there is the problem of the bloodspray pattern behind the sofa which goes quite high up the wall and may be the result of an attempt at resuscitation although I recall seeing a clip of Brunt early September where he says the blood pattern is indicative of a broken hyoid bone - make of that what you will,  Maddie  entered the OC alive and died there, according to the PJ and the dogs.

SY  need to close the whole circus down imo.
They've let JT off the hook. No liar, just misinterpretation. Off you go.
This leaves them free to launch and retract different versions of a ' 99% dead' scenario which involves any number of creepy extras but leaves out TM. So far they haven't hit on one that will fly but meanwhile the public is getting value for money as all these creepy characters are paraded in the press. The boys in blue are working hard it seems.
Just not exactly at justice for Maddie, that  may not have been in the remit after all.

Indeed they do Tigger, if they are to come out of this with any credibility.  

Just saw a great tweet, 'a suspect a day, keeps charges at bay' - about right I would say!

RIPM wrote:To those who think this will not be a whitewash ,are we expected to believe SY and the PJ  with the full permission of the Portuguese Government are working closely together on a strategy to entrap the Macs.

In this strategy they are going to totally trash the Algarve tourist industry by stating that weirdos,paedophiles,oddballs lurk in every resort up and down the coast.
They lurk in every stairwell,on every corner and if you have a blonde child, God help you!

The waiters are paedos, the hotel staff are paedos even the bin men! Trust no one.They rob you, burgle your apartment or villa molest your kids and the 'rotten dishonest' Portuguese police hide it all to protect their tourist industry but because its the Mccanns the Portuguese Govt have decided their tourist industry is not important.

1000's of Portuguese people who depend on the tourists for jobs are not important
The money tourists bring to Portugal is not important.

People of the UK Germany and Holland  through the 'respected' BBC Crimewatch are told if you come expect your children to be molested or abducted.

Do people seriously think the Portuguese Govt has agreed to this?

In reality there is no co-operation, it is a stand up fight and the PJ will not roll over again

Do you not think the Portuguese voter may ask their politicians questions regarding the slump in their tourist industry and the reasons for it?

Great Post! RIPM

tigger wrote:

ultimaThule wrote:

Doug D wrote:Keeping interpretation options open I think Cristobell.

Yes, dead when removed from apartment, but not necessarily died in the apartment, (could have been moved in & then out again).

IMO the child was dead before she entered 5A for the last time as, given the only two places in the apartment where the EVRD dog indicated cadaverine, I fail to understand why an injured and/or dying child, would be laid on the floor behind the sofa or by the wardrobe when it would be more appropriate to place her on the sofa, a bed, or even the table, to tend her.

The alternative is that the McCanns were even more unfeeling and uncaring about their eldest daughter than I've hitherto given them credit for.

It is possible that she fell elsewhere but there is the problem of the bloodspray pattern behind the sofa which goes quite high up the wall and may be the result of an attempt at resuscitation although I recall seeing a clip of Brunt early September where he says the blood pattern is indicative of a broken hyoid bone - make of that what you will,  Maddie  entered the OC alive and died there, according to the PJ and the dogs.

SY  need to close the whole circus down imo.
They've let JT off the hook. No liar, just misinterpretation. Off you go.
This leaves them free to launch and retract different versions of a ' 99% dead' scenario which involves any number of creepy extras but leaves out TM. So far they haven't hit on one that will fly but meanwhile the public is getting value for money as all these creepy characters are paraded in the press. The boys in blue are working hard it seems.
Just not exactly at justice for Maddie, that  may not have been in the remit after all.

Fracture of the hyoid bone can be found in cases of manual strangulation of the type more commonly committed by males* on females and such injuries do not cause external blood loss.   This particular fracture can also be caused by the impact of a steering wheel on the throat/neck area in the course of a vehicular accident; fracture of the hyoid bone is not always fatal and surgical intervention is rarely required to bring about healing/recovery.   In cases of suspicious death of children and adolescents, an intact hyoid cannot be seen as evidence that death was not caused by strangulation as ossification of the bones is not complete.

The EVRD dog's indications show only that a corpse was present in two locations in 5A, namely behind the sofa and by a bedroom wardrobe and, regardless of the PJ's thesis, these indications cannot be seen as evidence that death occurred in either of those two places as it could have equally occurred elsewhere and the body carried/moved to the apartment. 

I've yet to see any evidence of a fall, whether in 5A or any other location, and to my untrained eye such spots/flecks/dots of blood which can be seen on the wall under the window behind the sofa look as if they could be the remnants of cast-off bloodstain spatter which is consistent with beating or stabbling.

However, presupposing the child was rendered unconscious through falling off/behind the sofa, as I've observed before, attempts to resuscitate require space and it would be logical to move the injured party well away from the cramped confines between a wall and a sofa before performing CPR.  If there was insufficient time to effect such a move before death occurred I would have thought that, even more particularly in the case of a child, the next step would be to move the body to a bed or other soft surface where it could be accorded some dignity before being removed to a further temporary or permanent resting place.

It was my on the subject of dignity in death and the indications of the EVRD dog which led me to wonder whether a fatality occurred elsewhere, with the body being laid out in a respectful manner for a period of time before being temporarily 'stored' in 5A prior to its onward journey, otherwise leaving a child's body on a floor shows a quite remarkable of lack of feeling and/or sensitivity. 

Having finally got to the end of the bewk it seems to me that, having eliminated Tannerman, Op Grange is intent on whooshing all of the other spurious characters the McCanns and their agents have put foward for the role of phantom abductor snd I'm hopeful that, at very long last, justice beckons for the perpetrators of one of the most heinous crimes of this century.

lj wrote:

RIPM wrote:To those who think this will not be a whitewash ,are we expected to believe SY and the PJ  with the full permission of the Portuguese Government are working closely together on a strategy to entrap the Macs.

In this strategy they are going to totally trash the Algarve tourist industry by stating that weirdos,paedophiles,oddballs lurk in every resort up and down the coast.
They lurk in every stairwell,on every corner and if you have a blonde child, God help you!

The waiters are paedos, the hotel staff are paedos even the bin men! Trust no one.They rob you, burgle your apartment or villa molest your kids and the 'rotten dishonest' Portuguese police hide it all to protect their tourist industry but because its the Mccanns the Portuguese Govt have decided their tourist industry is not important.

1000's of Portuguese people who depend on the tourists for jobs are not important
The money tourists bring to Portugal is not important.

People of the UK Germany and Holland  through the 'respected' BBC Crimewatch are told if you come expect your children to be molested or abducted.

Do people seriously think the Portuguese Govt has agreed to this?

In reality there is no co-operation, it is a stand up fight and the PJ will not roll over again

Do you not think the Portuguese voter may ask their politicians questions regarding the slump in their tourist industry and the reasons for it?

Great Post!  RIPM

A post shot through with realism. Our police are out of control. Hogan-Howe is before Select Committee today answering questions on cover up and corruption. Why he has not been suspended I don't know. Something is deeply wrong here.

quote   :
 "However, presupposing the child was rendered unconscious through falling off/behind the sofa, as I've observed before, attempts to resuscitate require space and it would be logical to move the injured party well away from the cramped confines between a wall and a sofa before performing CPR."


 A hard surface is recommended for CPR, so maybe simply moving the sofa and leaving the patient in situ would be the thing to do ?

Mirage wrote:

lj wrote:

RIPM wrote:To those who think this will not be a whitewash ,are we expected to believe SY and the PJ  with the full permission of the Portuguese Government are working closely together on a strategy to entrap the Macs.

In this strategy they are going to totally trash the Algarve tourist industry by stating that weirdos,paedophiles,oddballs lurk in every resort up and down the coast.
They lurk in every stairwell,on every corner and if you have a blonde child, God help you!

The waiters are paedos, the hotel staff are paedos even the bin men! Trust no one.They rob you, burgle your apartment or villa molest your kids and the 'rotten dishonest' Portuguese police hide it all to protect their tourist industry but because its the Mccanns the Portuguese Govt have decided their tourist industry is not important.

1000's of Portuguese people who depend on the tourists for jobs are not important
The money tourists bring to Portugal is not important.

People of the UK Germany and Holland  through the 'respected' BBC Crimewatch are told if you come expect your children to be molested or abducted.

Do people seriously think the Portuguese Govt has agreed to this?

In reality there is no co-operation, it is a stand up fight and the PJ will not roll over again

Do you not think the Portuguese voter may ask their politicians questions regarding the slump in their tourist industry and the reasons for it?

Great Post!  RIPM

A post shot through with realism. Our police are out of control. Hogan-Howe is before Select Committee today answering questions on cover up and corruption. Why he has not been suspended I don't know. Something is deeply wrong here.

Worry not about NL. At least two journalists have appeared on prime time TV close to the CW programme and said in plain language that the story doesn't stand up and that the child is certainly dead and has been for a very long time.

Completely agree RD.

If someone fell & was injured behind the sofa, the action would be to push the sofa out of the way & tend to the injuries in situ.

Every first aider has it drummed into them not to move a victim, unless in danger of further injuries, until a proper examination has been carried out as you could do more harm than good, and maybe even doctors would be aware of that!

tigger wrote:

Mirage wrote:

lj wrote:

RIPM wrote:To those who think this will not be a whitewash ,are we expected to believe SY and the PJ  with the full permission of the Portuguese Government are working closely together on a strategy to entrap the Macs.

In this strategy they are going to totally trash the Algarve tourist industry by stating that weirdos,paedophiles,oddballs lurk in every resort up and down the coast.
They lurk in every stairwell,on every corner and if you have a blonde child, God help you!

The waiters are paedos, the hotel staff are paedos even the bin men! Trust no one.They rob you, burgle your apartment or villa molest your kids and the 'rotten dishonest' Portuguese police hide it all to protect their tourist industry but because its the Mccanns the Portuguese Govt have decided their tourist industry is not important.

1000's of Portuguese people who depend on the tourists for jobs are not important
The money tourists bring to Portugal is not important.

People of the UK Germany and Holland  through the 'respected' BBC Crimewatch are told if you come expect your children to be molested or abducted.

Do people seriously think the Portuguese Govt has agreed to this?

In reality there is no co-operation, it is a stand up fight and the PJ will not roll over again

Do you not think the Portuguese voter may ask their politicians questions regarding the slump in their tourist industry and the reasons for it?

Great Post!  RIPM

A post shot through with realism. Our police are out of control. Hogan-Howe is before Select Committee today answering questions on cover up and corruption. Why he has not been suspended I don't know. Something is deeply wrong here.

Worry not about NL. At least two journalists have appeared on prime time TV close to the CW programme  and said in plain language that the story doesn't stand up and that the child is certainly dead and has been for a very long time.

Thanks tigger. It is reassuring to know that outside this institute of complete madness that passes for the UK, another country is at least looking at the sick patient diagnostically. Dealing with collective national psychosis is going to necessitate some emergency counselling from abroad.   

Another example of shameful British Institutional 'sickness'.

It's been mentioned across threads about the possibility of a 'whistleblower'.

Read this and weep.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Doug D wrote:Completely agree RD.
If someone fell & was injured behind the sofa, the action would be to push the sofa out of the way & tend to the injuries in situ.
Every first aider has it drummed into them not to move a victim, unless in danger of further injuries, until a proper examination has been carried out as you could do more harm than good, and maybe even doctors would be aware of that!

But if a doctor found a body s/he would know know that it was dead.
And if it was found the morning after the night before ( the night of the argument and the stomping off in all directions and sleeping apart and not waking the children by putting the light on and not checking the children) and it was already cold and stiff and 'leaking' cadaverine . . .
Then it is all a bit different, and now you need a tennis bag big enough to hide a . . . tennis racquet

There is often a huge culture of cover-up within large organisations and institutions and the whistle blower is often hounded down and metaphorically shot in the back. The NHS is bad in this respect as I myself have witnessed at first hand. Education is another area where there can be a culture of bullying and narcissistic behaviour - and I'm not just talking about the pupils! Again, I have had first hand experience of this and it ain't pretty. It only takes one psychopath (or similar) quite high up in the organization to infect practically the whole organization. The fall out can be astounding as staff are bullied and targeted with psychological 'mind games' (often the attacker will accuse the target of the precise behaviour that they themselves are guilty of - for instance: 'you are unprofessional', 'you can't cope with the pressure', 'it's all in your head', 'you have an attitude problem'. 

I've seen it again and again so now I can spot it a mile off. It's toxic behaviour and, unless you are clued up on it, it can leave you blind-sided. And attackers will often target those in a weak position, those who are not able to walk away easily, those who are dependent. They will carefully chose their 'victims' who will tend to have certain qualities that they themselves lack. 

Hence the sexual abuse of children in children's homes (for instance Casa Pia). Those children are some of the most vulnerable in society.  

The McCann story relies very heavily on the fact that this was a large group of professional people on a summer holiday with their young children at a holiday camp. To the average non-psychopathic person this will lead to a number of assumptions about the holiday. For instance, that the professionals will be respectable, caring parents who will be devoted to their children's well-being and happiness. That the parents will put a high priority on their children's emotional, physical and psychological well-being.

And so on.

After all, if you thought that your GP or your Consultant was the type of person who neglected or was abusive in some way towards children, or who had a deviant or anti-social characteristics you would not be able to trust them with your health or your children's health - the most important things you have, probably.

Unfortunately, there will be those in all fields who will abuse their position of trust to gain a perverted advantage over others. It only takes a gullible public who has been brainwashed into certain assumptions and prejudices.

But I do think that in Britain our sickness has been pretty bad for some time. The McCann Fiasco is the icing on the giant pile of dung.

j.rob wrote:There is often a huge culture of cover-up within large organisations and institutions and the whistle blower is often hounded down and metaphorically shot in the back. The NHS is bad in this respect as I myself have witnessed at first hand. Education is another area where there can be a culture of bullying and narcissistic behaviour - and I'm not just talking about the pupils! Again, I have had first hand experience of this and it ain't pretty. It only takes one psychopath (or similar) quite high up in the organization to infect practically the whole organization. The fall out can be astounding as staff are bullied and targeted with psychological 'mind games' (often the attacker will accuse the target of the precise behaviour that they themselves are guilty of - for instance: 'you are unprofessional', 'you can't cope with the pressure', 'it's all in your head', 'you have an attitude problem'. 

I've seen it again and again so now I can spot it a mile off. It's toxic behaviour and, unless you are clued up on it, it can leave you blind-sided. And attackers will often target those in a weak position, those who are not able to walk away easily, those who are dependent. They will carefully chose their 'victims' who will tend to have certain qualities that they themselves lack. 

Hence the sexual abuse of children in children's homes (for instance Casa Pia). Those children are some of the most vulnerable in society.  

The McCann story relies very heavily on the fact that this was a large group of professional people on a summer holiday with their young children at a holiday camp. To the average non-psychopathic person this will lead to a number of assumptions about the holiday. For instance, that the professionals will be respectable, caring parents who will be devoted to their children's well-being and happiness. That the parents will put a high priority on their children's emotional, physical and psychological well-being.

And so on.

After all, if you thought that your GP or your Consultant was the type of person who neglected or was abusive in some way towards children, or who had a deviant or anti-social characteristics you would not be able to trust them with your health or your children's health - the most important things you have, probably.

Unfortunately, there will be those in all fields who will abuse their position of trust to gain a perverted advantage over others. It only takes a gullible public who has been brainwashed into certain assumptions and prejudices.

But I do think that in Britain our sickness has been pretty bad for some time. The McCann Fiasco is the icing on the giant pile of dung.

People get "sucked in" to the system they work in. The alternative is to lose one's job. Some have the guts to speak out and are prepared to suffer the consequences. Sadly, too many people have mortgages, young families etc, so they suffer in silence all the corruption and nepotism within their working circles.

PeterMac wrote:

Doug D wrote:Completely agree RD.
If someone fell & was injured behind the sofa, the action would be to push the sofa out of the way & tend to the injuries in situ.
Every first aider has it drummed into them not to move a victim, unless in danger of further injuries, until a proper examination has been carried out as you could do more harm than good, and maybe even doctors would be aware of that!

But if a doctor found a body s/he would know know that it was dead.
And if it was found the morning after the night before ( the night of the argument and the stomping off in all directions and sleeping apart and not waking the children by putting the light on and not checking the children) and it was already cold and stiff and 'leaking' cadaverine . . .
Then it is all a bit different, and now you need a tennis bag big enough to hide a . . .  tennis racquet

And there indeed you have it. If she was unconscious she would at some stage be moved to a bed. But if she had 'been taken' (leaving aside the time of discovery for now) then moving her to a bed is something you would never do. You either call for help, or go down another much darker path.

aquila wrote:Another example of shameful British Institutional 'sickness'.

It's been mentioned across threads about the possibility of a 'whistleblower'.

Read this and weep.

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Weep indeed - Lin Homer is at that back of this. A Common Purpose leader who makes a shambles of every position she is given and is then rewarded and moved to yet another Agency to destroy.  Vote rigging scandal as Birmingham City Councillor, Border Agency chief and cocks that up, so moved to HMRC and is now cocking that up.

So one comes to the conclusion that she is merely employed to destroy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]      from 19.24 mins.

Sorry off-topic but had to prove what corruption is going on.

@ sallypelt - "People get "sucked in" to the system they work in. The alternative is to lose one's job. Some have the guts to speak out and are prepared to suffer the consequences. Sadly, too many people have mortgages, young families etc, so they suffer in silence all the corruption and nepotism within their working circles".

So true - If one dares to speak up about corruption, life is made hell and one either has to leave or becomes ill.