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Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 27.01.14 10:51

Good.  If they had refused to make a cake for a black couple, or a Jewish couple, or a Muslim couple, that would be discrimination and nobody would argue.

ETA. I got married in a registry office with no mention of anything religious. Or perhaps that should be 'married'.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by Guest on 27.01.14 12:22

I wonder what would happen if a Muslim shopkeeper refused to serve anyone for this reason.......
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aiyoyo on 27.01.14 12:36

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I wonder what would happen if a Muslim shopkeeper refused to serve anyone for this reason.......

It's more like the other way around, then it becomes an issue.

It's incredulous such banal triviality even made it to the NEWS.
What is does is: it will further enrage those self righteous who are anti-gays. It will fuel the shopkeeper's hatred for gays.
Sad, when it should just be a customer is a customer, regardless.
It would have been simplier just to take their money and put personal prejudice aside, after all the Baker is in a business to earn a living, not to judge people.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aquila on 27.01.14 14:18

@aiyoyo wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I wonder what would happen if a Muslim shopkeeper refused to serve anyone for this reason.......

It's more like the other way around, then it becomes an issue.

It's incredulous such banal triviality even made it to the NEWS.
What is does is: it will further enrage those self righteous who are anti-gays. It will fuel the shopkeeper's hatred for gays.
Sad, when it should just be a customer is a customer, regardless.
It would have been simplier just to take their money and put personal prejudice aside, after all the Baker is in a business to earn a living, not to judge people.
It's not as if there aren't any gay bakers or bakery workers.

This is just a load of meddlesome twaddle imo.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 27.01.14 14:34

@aquila wrote:
It's not as if there aren't any gay bakers or bakery workers.

This is just a load of meddlesome twaddle imo.

If a person was refused service in a shop because they were black, would that be 'meddlesome twaddle'?

I'm glad some parts of the world seem to be growing up at last.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aquila on 27.01.14 15:12

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@aquila wrote:
It's not as if there aren't any gay bakers or bakery workers.

This is just a load of meddlesome twaddle imo.

If a person was refused service in a shop because they were black, would that be 'meddlesome twaddle'?

I'm glad some parts of the world seem to be growing up at last.
You're misunderstanding my post I think. I was saying the exact opposite of what you've stated.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 27.01.14 15:27

@aquila wrote:
You're misunderstanding my post I think. I was saying the exact opposite of what you've stated.

Oh, please accept my humblest apologies aquila :)

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by tigger on 28.01.14 7:34

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I wonder what would happen if a Muslim shopkeeper refused to serve anyone for this reason.......

I agree, some are more equal than others -  if a Muslim refused such a customer one might be called a racist for critisising his refusal.
In fact I think one may refuse an order for a same sex wedding cake as long as one isn't 'white', the religious card carries more weight when racism is added.

Btw a restaurant or cafe is a place where customers are there at the discretion of the owner, i.e. guests.
Therefore customers can be refused service and told to leave.
Equally a customer is not required by law to pay for his meal if he considers it inedible or below the standard advertised.
He must give a reason and name and address so that the owner can pursue the matter in civil court.

I really think the refusal to bake the wedding cake is entirely up to the baker. I have homosexual friends who'd share my opinion.
I do feel a number of homosexuals revel in being 'special' and by legalising it ( not before time either) they've lost a martyr status they try to recover  with idiotic complaints such as the one under discussion.
Find another baker is my advice.... O, and never try to get married in Russia.  big grin

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by PeterMac on 28.01.14 8:34

Why not just order a cake ?
Why does it have to be a homosexual cake.
As you observe, there is a whole industry being created by the "look at me, I'm so special" brigade.
I worked alongside several homosexual men and women in the Police. None did the shrieking, squealing, mincing, hand flapping, dressing up as pantomime dames . . .
They were just friends and colleagues who got on with the job.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by Guest on 28.01.14 9:31

@PeterMac wrote:Why not just order a cake ?
Why does it have to be a homosexual cake.
As you observe, there is a whole industry being created by the "look at me, I'm so special" brigade.
I worked alongside several homosexual men and women in the Police. None did the shrieking, squealing, mincing, hand flapping,  dressing up as pantomime dames . . .
They were just friends and colleagues who got on with the job.

This is the inevitable consequence of the inherent duality in this type of thinking. You can't seek both homogeny and diversity at the same time, it just doesn't work.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 28.01.14 9:49

@PeterMac wrote:Why not just order a cake ?
Why does it have to be a homosexual cake.
As you observe, there is a whole industry being created by the "look at me, I'm so special" brigade.
I worked alongside several homosexual men and women in the Police. None did the shrieking, squealing, mincing, hand flapping,  dressing up as pantomime dames . . .
They were just friends and colleagues who got on with the job.

Not sure what you're on about. It was a couple trying to order a cake for their same-sex wedding. I must have missed the part where they said they wanted a gay cake.

And if people want to be camp - not that it's related to the article at all - I don't see anything wrong with that.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by mysterion on 28.01.14 9:55

Gay cake - may have asked for two male figures on the top.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 28.01.14 10:03

@mysterion wrote:Gay cake - may have asked for two male figures on the top.

Outrageous!

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by Guest on 28.01.14 11:29

I now have visions of little figures of the Village People and a tinny version of YMCA being played.....

Speaking generally, if a shopkeeper only deigned to serve me because he'd been reminded that it was illegal to turn me away because of something about me that he didn't like, I would take my custom to someone else who didn't judge people.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aquila on 28.01.14 12:08

I flew from Bangkok to Australia a few years ago. In the queue to board was a gay chap in full drag - the works - on his way to the Gay Pride festival . I wondered how the airline knew who he was from his passport photo (unless his passport photo was in drag too).

Anyway, live and let live.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aiyoyo on 28.01.14 14:12

Social stigma against homosexual, HIV, or whatever is something no amount of education can change.
Court order is not going to change the baker's view.
He will end up more resentful against homosexual.
Who knows what extra ingredient will go into homosexual cake if he's forced to obey the Court Order.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 28.01.14 14:37

@aiyoyo wrote:Social stigma against homosexual, HIV, or whatever is something no amount of education can change.
Court order is not going to change the baker's view.
He will end up more resentful against homosexual.
Who knows what extra ingredient will go into homosexual cake if he's forced to obey the Court Order.


So you think that it should be fine for shops to put up a 'NO BLACKS', 'NO GAYS', or 'NO JEWS' sign in the front window?

I cannot agree with the idea that people should not be forced to treat all people fairly otherwise they may do something nasty to those people.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by Guest on 28.01.14 14:54

I'm old enough to remember when it was perfectly legal for landlords and employers to place adverts saying "no coloureds".

Nobody would want to go back to those times (at least I hope not) but there will always be people with prejudices against others for whatever reason and I don't see that forcing them to obey the law will help.

Far better as far as I am concerned to simply boycott them and take your custom elsewhere.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aquila on 28.01.14 14:58

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Social stigma against homosexual, HIV, or whatever is something no amount of education can change.
Court order is not going to change the baker's view.
He will end up more resentful against homosexual.
Who knows what extra ingredient will go into homosexual cake if he's forced to obey the Court Order.


So you think that it should be fine for shops to put up a 'NO BLACKS', 'NO GAYS', or 'NO JEWS' sign in the front window?

I cannot agree with the idea that people should not be forced to treat all people fairly otherwise they may do something nasty to those people.
If everyone in the world treated people fairly we'd live in eutopia.

I've been an immigrant and discriminated because I'm a white northern European. I've been discriminated against because I'm white.

It nettled me. Get over it.

If you are homosexual then you are not the norm. The majority of people aren't homosexual otherwise we'd have no human race.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 28.01.14 15:39

@aquila wrote:
If everyone in the world treated people fairly we'd live in eutopia.

I've been an immigrant and discriminated because I'm a white northern European. I've been discriminated against because I'm white.

It nettled me. Get over it.

If you are homosexual then you are not the norm. The majority of people aren't homosexual otherwise we'd have no human race.

No, I'm not homosexual, not that it would matter if I was.  I've been abused for being an atheist, but otherwise I'm what you would call 'the norm'.

'Get over it' - charming aquila, perfectly charming.  If you want to sink to this level of discussion, I'm happy to oblige. I'm not content to be attacked just because I feel that discrimination should not be and isn't 'okay'. It's not okay to murder someone so there are laws about that. It's not okay to discriminate, so there are laws about that too. It's quite simple really.

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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aiyoyo on 28.01.14 15:45

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:Social stigma against homosexual, HIV, or whatever is something no amount of education can change.
Court order is not going to change the baker's view.
He will end up more resentful against homosexual.
Who knows what extra ingredient will go into homosexual cake if he's forced to obey the Court Order.


So you think that it should be fine for shops to put up a 'NO BLACKS', 'NO GAYS', or 'NO JEWS' sign in the front window?

I cannot agree with the idea that people should not be forced to treat all people fairly otherwise they may do something nasty to those people.

Personally I think the Baker should serve all customers regardless.
I learned something new here that homosexual cake means having two male figures (and two male names?) on the cake.
Easy enough to comply you'd have thought.  

Using Force to coerce a person with prejudiced mentality to change is not the ideal solution as that only builds resentment.
A person's view is a result of the totality of his/her long term ingrained culture and conditioning that cant be changed overnight.
The society needs to be educated, needs to be conditioned by education to change.

As PM rightly pointed out there is a newly created industry of "Look at ME, I'm so special".
This is also part of the problem of modern society - people who crave attention.  
The narrow minded ignorant baker is to be pitied more than anything else.
If he does not take your business that is his loss. Just go to another baker who will serve you.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by Guest on 28.01.14 15:50

Please everybody, let's keep things on a even and amicable keel.

WLBTS, yes I've encountered people who think that being an atheist makes others a valid target for abuse! I understand that in some parts of America, people have to pretend to have religious beliefs or they would not be served in shops.

Thank God (pun fully intended) that it is not like that in the U K and I hope not for anyone else on the forum either.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by aquila on 28.01.14 15:59

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
@aquila wrote:
If everyone in the world treated people fairly we'd live in eutopia.

I've been an immigrant and discriminated because I'm a white northern European. I've been discriminated against because I'm white.

It nettled me. Get over it.

If you are homosexual then you are not the norm. The majority of people aren't homosexual otherwise we'd have no human race.

No, I'm not homosexual, not that it would matter if I was.  I've been abused for being an atheist, but otherwise I'm what you would call 'the norm'.

'Get over it' - charming aquila, perfectly charming.  If you want to sink to this level of discussion, I'm happy to oblige.  I'm not content to be attacked just because I feel that discrimination should not be and isn't 'okay'.  It's not okay to murder someone so there are laws about that.  It's not okay to discriminate, so there are laws about that too.  It's quite simple really.
I think you are capable of being a charming person. It's hard to live with discrimination. It's a sad thing but it's true to life. This is the second time you have attacked my opinion/post.

You sound a bit disgruntled to me and I'm sorry if you feel my opinon is personal to you - although I think you somehow don't like anything Tony Bennett (the originator of this thread) has to say which is the reason for your stance.

Chill out...it's a discussion...and I'm interested in your opinion as long as it's genuine - mine is.
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Re: Discrimination in Colorado and Washington - people who refuse to make wedding cakes for - or take wedding pictures of - homosexuals getting 'married' to face fines

Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 28.01.14 16:01

I'll just state my full opinion and move on - that it is wrong to treat people differently because of their ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation, and that the law must reflect this. Otherwise, you end up with shops with signs that say 'NO N***ERS', special seating for black people on buses, women without the right to vote, and slave owners. Fortunately civilization keeps advancing for the better, regardless of attitudes that are best left in the past.

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