Scotland Yard detectives investigating Madeleine McCann case move a step closer to making arrests with official bid to interview three suspects

loopzdaloop wrote:

Okeydokey wrote:

Bellisa wrote:okeydokey, I disagree.
PAYG phones are not always registered to the person using them, this is why criminals use them, calls can of course be traced but the person who is using them is not easily identified.

Even those jokers at Leicestershire Police  appeared to be very keen to get their hands on David Paynes PAYG.

I was answering Loop who claimed: "They would have thought at the time the mobiles would be anon, and they may have been at the time but advances in phone tech has meant analysts can catch up with this."

What does "anon" mean here? What does "advances in phone tech" mean here? 

I know criminals favour PAYG but that's because the Police can't be bothered to try and run down every criminal's PAYG phone. However, things are different when we are talking about the biggest criminal case in the last 100 years. My point is that these are intelligent people who would understand the police can trace PAYG numbers as well as any other mobile phone number. I think it's naive to think they weren't aware of that.

Are you claiming the Portugese or UK Police have never been able to establish the PAYG numbers?  I seriously doubt that.

I think it was left a bit open ended in the rogatory interviews but as I recall essentially the Tapas 9 were saying they could supply the phones.

They have proven by their actions time after time that they are not intelligent people by any definition of that term.
They have consistently tried to bluff themselves out of a situation that occurred, of which we can hypothesise about what happened, that has meant they have contradicted themselves on a regular occasion. If you have a read of the files, at that point in time what happened to the mobiles was a complete unknown. Similarly, thre has never been any mention of the press hacking their phones. At the time they believed all their calls and texts would not be traced and they had privacy and anonymity on those mobile phones. They certainly would not have thought they could have been tracked down on them or had their pings analysed. We are aware that sy are still thinking about mobile phones and unless they had anything specific they would not be able to arrest anyone for merely using a phone in the local area, they would be interested in isolating the valuable data from the data dump. Unless you have some further information that you wish to divulge... . .? as the facts I'm basing my logic on are accurate.

I completely disagree. GMcC is highly intelligent and highly skilled at manipulating people. I believe one or two others also show high level skills.

"At the time they believed all their calls and texts would not be traced " This is pure assertion backed up by nothing at all.

Fortunately in this case, we will see in the next few days that your interpretation is completely wrong headed. This is about a request to interview 3 burglary suspects.

My guess is they will be identified and found.

the burglary aspect came from the mccann spokesperson okeydokey. This line of inquiry has not come from anywhere else.

I am still in favour of the truth coming out and with respect I hope you are wrong :-)

Okeydokey, your assertion is also 'backed up by nothing at all'. We have different opinions. Nobody likes being called naive, or a fantasist.

You've referred to the three burglars as suspects several times. Give me one piece of source material to show that Scotland Yard have stated that they are looking to interview three burglars.

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Okeydokey, your assertion is also 'backed up by nothing at all'.  We have different opinions.  Nobody likes being called naive, or a fantasist.

You've referred to the three burglars as suspects several times.  Give me one piece of source material to show that Scotland Yard have stated that they are looking to interview three burglars.

Numerous media reports in the UK including this one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2538472/British-police-preparing-make-arrests-Operation-Grange-investigation-disappearance-Madeleine-McCann.html


We'll soon see who's right and who's wrong won't we?


No one may like being called naive or a fantasist but I think it brings this site into disrepute to build up an imaginary McCann arrest scenario on the basis of the rogatory letter request. In short Team  McCann will be chuckling away.

Bellisa wrote:the burglary aspect came from the mccann spokesperson okeydokey. This line of inquiry has not come from anywhere else.

I am still in favour of the  truth coming out and with respect I hope you are wrong :-)

You have no basis for saying the burglary aspect came from a McCann spokesperson. Newspapers have all sorts of sources.

As I say, we will soon see how is right or wrong. It ain't gonna be me, but if my some pleasing miracle it were to be I will come on here and offer an abject apology.

Okeydokey wrote:

Dee Coy wrote:

ultimaThule wrote:Section 9 of the Offences Against The Person Act 1861:
Murder or manslaughter abroad.
Where any murder or manslaughter shall be committed on land out of the United Kingdom, whether within the Queen’s dominions or without, and whether the person killed were a subject of Her Majesty or not, every offence committed by any subject of Her Majesty in respect of any such case, whether the same shall amount to the offence of murder or of manslaughter may be dealt with, inquired of, tried, determined, and punished in England or Ireland: Provided, that nothing herein contained shall prevent any person from being tried in any place out of England or Ireland for any murder or manslaughter committed out of England or Ireland, in the same manner as such person might have been tried before the passing of this Act.

In such cases it is usual for the police and CPS to liaise with their counterparts in whatever countries such crimes may have been committed in order to determine where those arrested and charged should stand trial, DeeCoy.

Thank you, ultima Thule. So they don't have to be physically in Portugal to be arrested, but as this is a Portuguese case, it would seem to be prudent for the UK police to formally approach the Portuguese before apprehending any suspects. Enlightening, thank you again.

I think you're all going off in wrong directions. This is a rogatory letter requesting interviews of people NOT in the UK.  End of story.  You're trying to construct something that can't be put together.

On this occasion I am able to put my construct together, Okeydokey, and far from being 'end of story', I believe there is every reason to presume that recent events have heralded the beginning of the end of this long-running saga.

The fact is the contents of the 2nd rogatory letter the CPS have sent to the Portuguese judiciary have not been made public and we have no knowledge of what is being requested therein. 

What is known is that high ranking officials of the notoriously parsimonious CPS travelled to Portugal to meet with their counterparts on two occasions; the first being cJune 2013 and the second being cNovember 2013.  

From this, it is reasonable to assume that the necessary diplomatic courtesies and negotiations have been completed and, subject to the nationality of the accused, agreement has been reached as to where any trial(s) will be held.

In light of the scant information which is common knowledge, the fact that only 2 rogatory letters have been sent by the UK suggests that NSY and the PJ have established a close working relationship wherein information is being freely exchanged, and with only occasional need to exercise those formalities necessary to transfer any evidence in the possession of the PJ that may be used to substantiate any charges which are brought by the CPS.

To answer loopzdaloop's earlier question, as far as I'm aware, there have been no 'murmurings' in terms of leaks and/or other hints of any nature from either Operation Grange or the PJ's investigatory team.  This would suggest that lessons have been learned and both police forces are well aware that, in this particular case, silence is golden.

IMO, as it's probable that any person arrested in the UK on suspicion of committing, or being complicit in, crimes against Madeleine McCann will lawyer up, it's unlikely that any formal interviews have been conducted by NSY.  For this reason I suspect that no arrests will be made in the UK until such time as the CPS believe their case to be watertight. 

Fwiw, as it's my belief that any arrests which take place in the UK will be carried out with a swiftness which may seem shocking to those who are unprepared for news of this nature, I daily expect the unexpected in the hope that one day in the not too distant future I won't be disappointed. 

Okeydokey wrote:

Bellisa wrote:the burglary aspect came from the mccann spokesperson okeydokey. This line of inquiry has not come from anywhere else.

I am still in favour of the  truth coming out and with respect I hope you are wrong :-)

You have no basis for saying the burglary aspect came from a McCann spokesperson. Newspapers have all sorts of sources.

As I say, we will soon see how is right or wrong. It ain't gonna be me, but if my some pleasing miracle it were to be I will come on here and offer an abject apology.

The Guardian said the burglarstory came from close to the McCanns. SY says it doesn't comment on any contents of requests. There hasn't been a comment fro SY on the contents now. So how come you're advertising three burglars and a whitewash?

the guardian newspaper admitted that the source of their story was the mccanns spokesperson.

It was also revealed on the same day as the other 150+articles using the same theory of burglars.

Unless you are Redwood you cannot state that you are certain you are correct so you are basing your own Opinion on guesswork like most of us.

Good Post Ultima Thule!

From the recent Guardian article:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/13/madeleine-mccann-british-police-arrests-portugal

"The spokesman for Kate and Gerry McCann said: "The letter is a significant development. It is necessary for British police to request the Portuguese authorities allow them to operate on their turf.

"It means they have the intention of arresting and interviewing X, Y or Z. We don't know who they have their sights on but it's likely it IS the BURGLARS"

Unless of course the McCanns now employ more than one, paid from the 'fund' spokesman!

ultimaThule wrote:

MRNOODLES wrote:*Thinking out loud*

A thought raced trough my head.  However not sure of any whys or reasons for it.  Don't laugh, but would there be any advantage or reason for the McCanns  to be arrested by SY in Portugal, in other words when/if they pitch in for the trial verdict.  
Plus this two week difference in reporting the letter of request can be attributed to the unexpected postponing of said verdict.

Libel trial verdict or no verdict, the McCanns are unlikely to voluntarily pitch up in Portugal any time soon and I anticipate that any arrests in this case will take place in the UK.  

The '3 burglars & the rog letter' tale emerged on the eve of what should have been the date for the court to hear closing arguments.   That date was postponed and the final hearing is expected to take place tomorrow. 

It's time for another diversionary tactic from the 'family source' or 'a source close to the couple, but I somehow doubt this is what they had in mind:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html scroll down to see how the Mail have helpfully placed an article with the headline 'Scotland Yard dectectives investigating Madeleine McCann case etc' next to that of 'Son, 22, of Madeleine McCann murder detective etc' for ease of reading*.     

I beginning to wonder if there's a limit to how many feathers can be spat at the Towers, but I suspect there'll be a few more duvets' worth before this case is brought to a close.     

*also posted on 'Madeleine cop son 'nicked' which as far as I'm aware isn't a headline in the Sun... yet.   Murdoch will pay handsomely for your talents, jeanmonroe  

For reasons which will become readily apparent, I make no apology for bumping up my earlier thread.

As expected, here it is in the Mirror's edition of an hour ago: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-first-arrests-move-3056123

Now let me see   ...  could it be that the libel trial is resuming later this morning?    

TM are getting to be so predictable I'm thinking of setting my watch by them.  

Thank you @bellisa  

Perhaps the Yard wants to interrrogate them in Portimão itself, close to the place where the crime  happened. There must be more in the rogatory letter, who knows even the reconstruction.
Finally everything  at once and it is high time.
We have to wait.

marconi wrote:Perhaps the Yard wants to interrrogate them in Portimão itself, close to the place where the crime  happened. There must be more in the rogatory letter, who knows even the reconstruction.
Finally everything  at once and it is high time.
We have to wait.

It seems that Pedro do Carmo said that the Yard is focused on 3 people, not on 3 men (CNN McCannfiles).

Why don't they let the mccanns speak for themselves?

Don't they have mouths? Or are they no good at it.

ultimaThule wrote:

ultimaThule wrote:

MRNOODLES wrote:*Thinking out loud*

A thought raced trough my head.  However not sure of any whys or reasons for it.  Don't laugh, but would there be any advantage or reason for the McCanns  to be arrested by SY in Portugal, in other words when/if they pitch in for the trial verdict.  
Plus this two week difference in reporting the letter of request can be attributed to the unexpected postponing of said verdict.

Libel trial verdict or no verdict, the McCanns are unlikely to voluntarily pitch up in Portugal any time soon and I anticipate that any arrests in this case will take place in the UK.  

The '3 burglars & the rog letter' tale emerged on the eve of what should have been the date for the court to hear closing arguments.   That date was postponed and the final hearing is expected to take place tomorrow. 

It's time for another diversionary tactic from the 'family source' or 'a source close to the couple, but I somehow doubt this is what they had in mind:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html scroll down to see how the Mail have helpfully placed an article with the headline 'Scotland Yard dectectives investigating Madeleine McCann case etc' next to that of 'Son, 22, of Madeleine McCann murder detective etc' for ease of reading*.     

I beginning to wonder if there's a limit to how many feathers can be spat at the Towers, but I suspect there'll be a few more duvets' worth before this case is brought to a close.     

*also posted on 'Madeleine cop son 'nicked' which as far as I'm aware isn't a headline in the Sun... yet.   Murdoch will pay handsomely for your talents, jeanmonroe  

For reasons which will become readily apparent, I make no apology for bumping up my earlier thread.

As expected, here it is in the Mirror's edition of an hour ago: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-first-arrests-move-3056123

Now let me see   ...  could it be that the libel trial is resuming later this morning?    

TM are getting to be so predictable I'm thinking of setting my watch by them.  

Thank you @bellisa  

If this line from the article is true:-
Met Police want to be given the opportunity to arrest key suspects.

"They are keeping Kate and Gerry informed of all developments".

Then there is little hope (it is a statement in the Mirror though!) it also ties in with what AR stated SY's remit was.

The Met police can not make arrests in Portugal. If it is the case, the PJ will do it.

I do think it's entirely possible that these three burglars do exist and that phones that they used in the course of their "work" were also used extensively in PdL on the evening on 3/5/2007.

Robert Murat seemed only to eager to cooperate lately, didn't he?

The Roman Catholic priest is still available in PdL for questioning

So, of course, is dr. Amaral, who could be questioned on his findings even those still outside the public domain. he's a free man after all, not bound to professional secrecy since he left the PJ

Clay Regazzoni wrote:I do think it's entirely possible that these three burglars do exist and that phones that they used in the course of their "work" were also used extensively in PdL on the evening on 3/5/2007.

It is possible.

But it is equally possible that they 'saw' a woman, in flip flops keeping 'dog' at the top of the street and a man leaving apartment 5A carrying a 'lifeless' child who they now remember looked remarkedly similar to what they now know the 'missing' childs father looks like

It's equally possible that they were going to 'case the joint' and saw all the 'goings on' of the people they now know to be the T9.

It's possible that having been given a lot of advanced warnings of being arrested they could quite easily 'fib' and drop the entire T9 into the mire.

"We saw THEM behaving suspiciously, we saw the shutter being raised from INSIDE the apartment and the window being slid open and a woman, in flip flops, keeping 'guard', from the car park side, outside the apartment when we heard a woman shouting and running back to the OC"

Yes it's all 'possible'.

Based on my experience in the UK, there seem to be people looking out for items of value all the time. Whenever we have builders around it isn`t long before the skip is searched or enquiries are made about stuff on the driveway. So I can see it being feasible that burglars were snooping on that evening in May and saw something.

In the mirror:
They are thought to have made an unusually high number of calls to each other in the hours after her abduction.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Firstly 'proof ' of 'abduction' please Daily Mirror. (just a scintilla will do)

Secondly WTF is an 'UNUSUALLY HIGH' number of calls?

I didn't know people were 'rationed' to number of calls they make and after a 'certain number' they are making unusually high amounts of calls.

If that were the case , when my friend, was in Hospice, i'd have been 'arrested on the spot' for the 'unusually high' number of calls i made!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The McCann's official spokesman Clarence Mitchell said last night: "Kate and Gerry do not comment on any aspect of Operation Grange."

Clarence Mitchell added: "HOWEVER,........"

jeanmonroe wrote:From the recent Guardian article:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/13/madeleine-mccann-british-police-arrests-portugal

"The spokesman for Kate and Gerry McCann said: "The letter is a significant development. It is necessary for British police to request the Portuguese authorities allow them to operate on their turf.

"It means they have the intention of arresting and interviewing X, Y or Z. We don't know who they have their sights on but it's likely it IS the BURGLARS"

Unless of course the McCanns now employ more than one, paid from the 'fund' spokesman!

As I have stated in previous posts, I do believe the burglars exist but never as suspects. IMO the key pointers in this are (as a
I understand at the time of writing).

- as said by regular posters, burglars do not abduct children
- if it was a bungled burglary LEADING to abduction, they would have been so unprepared, the whole scene would be a farce (albeit not a very funny one) with no feasible possibility that forensic evidence would not be left to some degree. And time frames available would not support an abduction in these circumstances.

I would not rule out attempted burglary then finding Madeleine and scarperring, follows by a flurry of phone calls - still very plausible to me.

- Biggest to me is that, from SY website, emphasis within media and Crime watch, IMO they firmly believe Smithman to be the man carrying young Madeleine. That man was running - burglars have transport readily available, and burglars tend to favour dark clothing when not to be seen - Smithman was wearing beige trousers.

Again IMO, SY cannot believe Smithman to be a burglar.

I still cannot see (and hope) other than that this is a means to an end.

WHAT exactly would the MET 'do' IF the THREE STOOGES said "WE SAW GM AND DP REMOVING A BLUE SPORTS BAG FROM THE BUSHES AND CARRYING IT TO THE BEACH AREA AT 4am on 4th MAY 2007"?

Yes jeanmonroe I agree its ridiculous.
but the usual report is "3 phones that made a high volume of calls after the disappearance and close to the scene of the 'abduction'.

Not too sure about anyone else but imo Burglars tend to be in and out as quick as they can.

Bellisa wrote:Yes jeanmonroe I agree its ridiculous.
but the usual report is "3 phones that made a high volume of calls after the disappearance and close to the scene of the 'abduction'.

Not too sure about anyone else but imo Burglars tend to be in and out as quick as they can.

Yeh, they really need to be investigating the high volume of calls from Apartment 5A.