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Iridology.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 14.01.14 21:19

Clay Regazzoni wrote:The chimerism is fascinating, I found it almost literally unbelievable when I read about it.

Speaking hypothetically, imagine a body did turn up early in the event. Small girl, matching in all respects the missing child except in respect to DNA. Imagine what impact that would have on the burgeoning genetic ID industry (we were in full-on national ID card territory at the time) not to mention the criminal justice system worldwide.

Better to sweep the whole thing under the carpet?

Yes  - and this would explain the farcical claim by the Maccans there there was none of MDM's DNA in the apartment despite living there for nearly a week, no toothbrush or hairbrush samples, nada.  And it then had to be collected (allegedly by GPM himself even?) from MBM's pillowcase from the house in Rothley.  Was this overseen by an independent forensic service, surely he was not allowed to collect this sample unsupervised...  I think the DNA is key, it had to be hidden for some reason.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Tangled Web on 14.01.14 21:27

As we know, there were an awful lot of doctors there at the same time and GM "wasn't there for a holiday" and it's almost as if apartment 5A wasn't used at all by a family of 5 holidaying.

What if, some 'experiment' or 'corrective' surgery went wrong in 5A?

'They've taken her' bothers me too.

Just thoughts...

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Re: Iridology.

Post by ultimaThule on 15.01.14 1:03

These two links make interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/intersex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29

It's those 'just thoughts' Tangled Web has referred to which are swirling around in my head after having read or heard assorted things K&G and their relatives/spokesman have said that have given rise to speculation of this nature.

I remain convinced that in among all of the disinformation TM has deliberately put out to cause as much confusion as possible, is the truth of the lies and it's a question of going through it with a fine tooth comb in the hope a 'revelation moment' will occur and it will all slot into its rightful place.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by lj on 15.01.14 2:15

Ah I see chimerism finally got some interest here.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by suep on 15.01.14 5:10

@lj wrote:Ah I see chimerism  finally got some interest here.

Has it been discussed elsewhere, lj? If so could you provide links?

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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 9:03

Not sure about this but did the IVF treatment for Madeleine get carried out in UK and the IVF treatment that resulted in the twins get carried out in Amsterdam? Correct me if I am wrong on this. If I am right, could that in itself be significant?
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Tangled Web on 15.01.14 9:16

@ultimaThule wrote:These two links make interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/intersex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_%28genetics%29

It's those 'just thoughts' Tangled Web has referred to which are swirling around in my head after having read or heard assorted things K&G and their relatives/spokesman have said that have given rise to speculation of this nature.

I remain convinced that in among all of the disinformation TM has deliberately put out to cause as much confusion as possible, is the truth of the lies and it's a question of going through it with a fine tooth comb in the hope a 'revelation moment' will occur and it will all slot into its rightful place.

Thank you ultimaThule. I guess that something along these lines would fit with them not wanting her medical records released and not seeming to have a 'normal' bond with their daughter. I wonder whether this could be the reason that they always refer to her as 'a little girl'. I agree with something Helenmeg said about needing to look more closely at everything they tell us and really want us to believe. These are the clues, in my opinion.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 9:28

@Tangled Web wrote:
Thank you ultimaThule. I guess that something along these lines would fit with them not wanting her medical records released and not seeming to have a 'normal' bond with their daughter. I wonder whether this could be the reason that they always refer to her as 'a little girl'. I agree with something Helenmeg said about needing to look more closely at everything they tell us and really want us to believe. These are the clues, in my opinion.

It might also explain Gerry's "find the body" taunting. Even finding a body might not be sufficient, without the DNA match. You could presumably find a body in the early hours of May 4th, in all respects looking just like the tennis photo girl and dressed in pink pyjamas. But if the DNA didn't match - would Gerry be brazen enough to say "Nothing to do with us, Guv"?

How many criminal cases the world over hinge on DNA evidence? Not to mention the biometric ID industry. All a bit pie in the sky, I appreciate, but just some thoughts.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by Rasputin on 15.01.14 9:31

I'm sure I read that Gerry also studied sports medicine ?...the dark arts of that being hormonal manipulation , also quite a few of the pictures we have seen have Madeliene dressed in blue ...forgive me I'm a bloke...but isn't it blue for boys ?
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Rasputin on 15.01.14 9:49

MILLIE wrote:Not sure about this but did the IVF treatment for Madeleine get carried out in UK and the IVF treatment that resulted in the twins get carried out in Amsterdam? Correct me if I am wrong on this. If I am right, could that in itself be significant?
That is correct Millie ...the twins were concieved in Amsterdam
According to the book it was a new cycle of treatment.
p.32 "another attempt at IVF ... within six more weeks we found ourselves starting another cycle of IVF in
Amsterdam.."....
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 10:45

I suppose if they were already living there because he worked in Amsterdam, to have IVF there for the twins would be entirely logical.

Not sure whether Amsterdam could have ay significance beyond that, although for those of you out there who are really thinking outside of the box, there's an organisation called the Club of Amsterdam which is a futuristic think tank, which, amongst many other topics, have examined the issues of chimeras and electronic identity.

http://clubofamsterdam.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/are-chimeras-part-of-our-future.html

http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/event.asp?contentid=506&catid=85


As Columbo would say, 'it's probably nothing, Sir'  shhhh
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 11:10

I think the ivf / dna is absolutely key.

Is it possible that MBM had fragile x syndrome - a genetic syndrome? Research on this matches a  lot of MBM's observed and reported characteristics:-

high forehead (there is one photo in particular that shows MBM with extremely high forehead will try and find)
protuding, large ears
flexible finger joints
flat footed

hyperactive (reported by KM)
behavioural difficulties
learning difficulties
reluctance to hold gaze (the snow white video)
hand-flapping

If you look at pictures of children with Fx then they have a certain head-shape which matches MBM.

some links:-


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fragile_X_syndrome
http://www.fragilex.org.uk/

Also can cause autism.

If MBM's FX was inherited from KM then could explain the reason for the IVF - female carriers tend to reach the menopause before 40.  Is this why KM has slightly androgynous looks and was an only child (no IVF techniques to eliminate it at that time).

Was Kate a cararrier of FX and they tried to manipulate their genetic DNA via IVF when trying to conceive?  Such techniques are already available in basic via PGD. 

Or were they trailling new secret IVF techniques yet to be clinically established in the UK/Europe?

If MBM's DNA had been secretly manipulated then this also explains all the farce about collecting MBM's DNA from the apartment, the withheld medical records, the confusing blood samples found in 5A, GM's conviction that the body wouldn't be found - all because the DNA wouldn not match what would be expected!  Also, the possible dissapearing twin strikes me as odd - what happened to this child?

If MBM unexpectedly died in Portugal (via an accident) then she coudn't be taken to a medical facility as the DNA discrepancies would be picked up (hence the threat to national security). Hence she hshe adto 'dissapear'.

Or, far worse were KM and GPM aware of her prognosis, couldn't cope and decided to take action.


There were a lot of medics and financial investors in PDL in May 2007, as well as the Tapas 7 (were they also part of the IVF trial?). 
I also understand there were people there with a genetic background as well (I need to check this further). 
Were the medics planning to set up a new IVF clinic with these new methods in mind, backed by their wealthy and well-connected friends/investors back in the UK?  Was it all stuffed up by what happened to MBM (GM 'it's a diasaster').  And as he said himself he wasn't there to enjoy himself.


Just some thoughts and all in my own humble opinion, very interested in what others think.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 11:23

Honestly couldn't say, BlackCat.

I do know that someone called Thentherewere4 on another blog page, alluded to a condition called Turner's syndrome. Here is the link you have to scroll a fair way down to get it. It's the 14 March 2010 comment I mean, not the earlier ones by same person.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 15.01.14 11:35

MILLIE wrote:I suppose if they were already living there because he worked in Amsterdam, to have IVF there for the twins would be entirely logical.

Not sure whether Amsterdam could have ay significance beyond that, although for those of you out there who are really thinking outside of the box, there's an organisation called the Club of Amsterdam which is a futuristic think tank, which, amongst many other topics, have examined the issues of chimeras and electronic identity.

http://clubofamsterdam.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/are-chimeras-part-of-our-future.html

http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/event.asp?contentid=506&catid=85


As Columbo would say, 'it's probably nothing, Sir'  shhhh

Very interesting links Millie, if this sort of genetic think-tank existed in Amsterdam then it almost certainly exisited in other parts of Europe, including the UK.

Could this be what the medics, investors etc were all doing in PdeLuz in May 2007 - involved in or setting up an organisation like this.

Will read more tonight, would certainly explain the 'threat to national security' and sooo many other things
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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 18.01.14 15:23

Admin, following Bobbin's interesting post, this seems to have developed into a separate topic of chimerism and dna / genetic conditions. Is there any way this can be separated out as a new topic in its own right?
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Re: Iridology.

Post by lj on 18.01.14 19:18

@suep wrote:
@lj wrote:Ah I see chimerism  finally got some interest here.

Has it been discussed elsewhere, lj? If so could you provide links?

No it was never discussed. I mentioned it 2 or 3 times, but nobody did show any interest.

The problem is that it is probably much more frequent than we know. That will set the whole "allmighty" DNA evidence on its head.

CSI will have years of new complots. Ancestry must develop different family trees and Maury must rewrites his show.

Aah the consequences....



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Re: Iridology.

Post by lj on 20.01.14 5:33

Strange, I could swear there was a post here that I would have liked to react on, just time to post is very sparse at the moment.

Awell, maybe I start imagining things.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by suep on 20.01.14 12:57

@lj wrote:Strange, I could swear there was a post here that I would have liked to react on, just time to post is very sparse at the moment.

Awell, maybe I start imagining things.

Apologies, lj, for my slowness to react to your answer to my query. Life has been full of distractions. So, belated thanks for your response and any information you can provide about the implications of chimerism for the DNA picture that emerged in the McCann case would be extremely appreciated.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by lj on 20.01.14 13:20

@suep wrote:
@lj wrote:Strange, I could swear there was a post here that I would have liked to react on, just time to post is very sparse at the moment.

Awell, maybe I start imagining things.

Apologies, lj, for my slowness to react to your answer to my query. Life has been full of distractions. So, belated thanks for your response and any information you can provide about the implications of chimerism for the DNA picture that emerged in the McCann case would be extremely appreciated.

I didn't mean your post suep. There was another one, but I'm not sure if I recall the name of the poster right.

I don't want to believe that there is also chimerism here. That would complicate the case even more. It is however an fascinating phenomena.

Let me also make clear that I don't believe there was anything "wrong" with Madeleine, other than the coloboma. Coloboma exist without any other diseases. I just don't see signs of Turner or autism in the scanty material we have from Madeleine, but that's just my opinion. I do believe (again that's just my opinion) the sick one here is Kate. I do believe she is anorexic, that that was the reason of her infertility and that she is experiencing a relaps of that. Again that's just my opinion.



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Re: Iridology.

Post by ultimaThule on 20.01.14 22:39

MILLIE wrote:Admin, following Bobbin's interesting post, this seems to have developed into a separate topic of chimerism and dna / genetic conditions. Is there any way this can be separated out as a new topic in its own right?
Why does this thread need to be modified in any way, Millie?  

The title of this thread is Iridology which, as can be seen from the initial responses, is of limited interest to members of this forum but has served to stimulate debate on other aspects of the case. 

As what is currently being debated may have some material bearing on the case, I see no reason why this thread shouldn't continue as is.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by aquila on 20.01.14 22:48

@ultimaThule wrote:
MILLIE wrote:Admin, following Bobbin's interesting post, this seems to have developed into a separate topic of chimerism and dna / genetic conditions. Is there any way this can be separated out as a new topic in its own right?
Why does this thread need to be modified in any way, Millie?  

The title of this thread is Iridology which, as can be seen from the initial responses, is of limited interest to members of this forum but has served to stimulate debate on other aspects of the case. 

As what is currently being debated may have some material bearing on the case, I see no reason why this thread shouldn't continue as is.
Have you become a moderator ultimaThule?

I think Millie asked a question to Admin.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by ultimaThule on 20.01.14 23:16

As can be clearly seen by all I have not become a moderator, aquila, nor would I wish to assume that role.


So far as I am aware from your own example on this thread and others, asking questions of fellow members is not prohibited on this forum although, of course, it is to be expected that one will not necessarily receive answers.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by tigger on 21.01.14 7:57

MILLIE wrote:I suppose if they were already living there because he worked in Amsterdam, to have IVF there for the twins would be entirely logical.

Not sure whether Amsterdam could have ay significance beyond that, although for those of you out there who are really thinking outside of the box, there's an organisation called the Club of Amsterdam which is a futuristic think tank, which, amongst many other topics, have examined the issues of chimeras and electronic identity.

http://clubofamsterdam.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/are-chimeras-part-of-our-future.html

http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/event.asp?contentid=506&catid=85


As Columbo would say, 'it's probably nothing, Sir'  shhhh

I do think that there's no case for chimerism here at all.
In the first place you'd start with much younger specimens, around twenty years of age. In the second place the DNA was analysed and identified as that of Maddie. Would have been much easier to initially proclaim the sample not to have matched.
Cloning was another theory much discussed and imo is just as unlikely as chimerism for the same reasons.

I do think she was ill and I am 100% sure that the strange shape of her head in some photos is nothing more than a wig which wasn't on properly. So if the illness and the wig and the treatment are related, one can draw one's own conclusions.
All the above my opinion.

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Re: Iridology.

Post by Guest on 21.01.14 10:52

@tigger wrote:
MILLIE wrote:I suppose if they were already living there because he worked in Amsterdam, to have IVF there for the twins would be entirely logical.

Not sure whether Amsterdam could have ay significance beyond that, although for those of you out there who are really thinking outside of the box, there's an organisation called the Club of Amsterdam which is a futuristic think tank, which, amongst many other topics, have examined the issues of chimeras and electronic identity.

http://clubofamsterdam.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/are-chimeras-part-of-our-future.html

http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/event.asp?contentid=506&catid=85


As Columbo would say, 'it's probably nothing, Sir'  shhhh

I do think that there's no case for chimerism here at all.
In the first place you'd start with much younger specimens, around twenty years of age. In the second place the DNA was analysed and identified as that of Maddie. Would have been much easier to initially proclaim the sample not to have matched.
Cloning was another theory much discussed and imo is just as unlikely as chimerism for the same reasons.

I do think she was ill and I am 100% sure that the strange shape of her head in some photos is nothing more than a wig which wasn't on properly.  So if the illness and the wig and the treatment are related, one can draw one's own conclusions.
All the above my opinion.
What do you mean by 'much younger specimens' (than MBM?) tigger?  I am thinking that if MBM was the result of an experimental IVF procedure then she could have been amongst the oldest 'specimens' available.

I always thought that the DNA from 5A wasn't an exact match or was inconclusive (as much as we can rely on the published results) - will go back and read some more.

What illness do you think she had?  Do you think this contributed to what happened to her - I have seen this discussed in previous threads, but not substantially.

Am interested in what you think as a more experienced member - everytime I think of this case I come up with more and more questions and no answers.

All the above in my own opinion.
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Re: Iridology.

Post by tigger on 21.01.14 12:08

BlackCatBoogie wrote:
@tigger wrote:
MILLIE wrote:I suppose if they were already living there because he worked in Amsterdam, to have IVF there for the twins would be entirely logical.

Not sure whether Amsterdam could have ay significance beyond that, although for those of you out there who are really thinking outside of the box, there's an organisation called the Club of Amsterdam which is a futuristic think tank, which, amongst many other topics, have examined the issues of chimeras and electronic identity.

http://clubofamsterdam.blogspot.co.uk/2007/09/are-chimeras-part-of-our-future.html

http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/event.asp?contentid=506&catid=85


As Columbo would say, 'it's probably nothing, Sir'  shhhh

I do think that there's no case for chimerism here at all.
In the first place you'd start with much younger specimens, around twenty years of age. In the second place the DNA was analysed and identified as that of Maddie. Would have been much easier to initially proclaim the sample not to have matched.
Cloning was another theory much discussed and imo is just as unlikely as chimerism for the same reasons.

I do think she was ill and I am 100% sure that the strange shape of her head in some photos is nothing more than a wig which wasn't on properly.  So if the illness and the wig and the treatment are related, one can draw one's own conclusions.
All the above my opinion.
What do you mean by 'much younger specimens' (than MBM?) tigger?  I am thinking that if MBM was the result of an experimental IVF procedure then she could have been amongst the oldest 'specimens' available.

I always thought that the DNA from 5A wasn't an exact match or was inconclusive (as much as we can rely on the published results) - will go back and read some more.

What illness do you think she had?  Do you think this contributed to what happened to her - I have seen this discussed in previous threads, but not substantially.

Am interested in what you think as a more experienced member - everytime I think of this case I come up with more and more questions and no answers.

All the above in my own opinion.

Younger specimens than her parents. - that's why I said around twenty years of age, at which time - rather unfairly I think - our bodies start to go downhill. People over thirty - forget it for experimental procreation.
The DNA from the car was a good match. Admissible in court in the UK even. Just disappeared.
That there was DNA of Maddie and that it wasn't easy to obtain can be explained in many ways. E.g. she barely lived with her parents but with other family, they really did share toothbrushes and hair brushes.
She wasn't in 5a for any appreciable time at all and so on. I think it's more significant that the DNA results had to be discounted.
Even the parents haven't denied there was DNA in the car, except they come up with rather curious explanations.
In my opinion there was very little DNA to be had in PdL because perhaps she'd not been there very long. Cuddlecat was brand-new imo, the blanket disappeared, the clothes were washed. Shoes also disappeared perhaps because she only had one pair with her?

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