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Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed - Page 14 Mm11

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Libel Trial 7th Jan Postponed - confirmed

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Post by notlongnow on 26.03.14 16:57

Surely tests must have been done on the time a dog needs to get a scent?
Can understand there must be some variables due to how hot/cold et.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 17:01

@notlongnow wrote:Surely tests must have been done on the time a dog needs to get a scent?
Can understand there must be some variables due to how hot/cold et.

Yes, and other variables such as age of the deceased. I'd be interested to know if any tests have been done with detection of cadaverine odour of a freshly deceased 3-4 year old.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 17:10

I'll post this as it's relevant.

CADAVER SCENT PROJECT

by Adela Morris and Rita Martinez (CSST members)

This research project was initiated in January of 1997 as a response to a frequently asked question by agencies that use our services. How, we are asked, do the dogs define death? At what point during the decomposition process of a human body will the dogs demonstrate that they recognize the scent as post-mortem?

We set up this research project to begin to understand when and how our dogs can discriminate live scent from post-mortem scent. All of the dogs used in this project have been "cross-trained", that is trained in both the discipline of finding and indicating on live human scent and also on post-mortem (cadaver) scent. *

The general medical definition of death, "The irreversible cessation of respiratory and heart activity" (Spitz and Fisher, 1993), describes the exact moment a human being becomes a dead body. Physiologic changes begin immediately, and within the first two hours after death onset of lividity, chemical changes in the blood, relaxation of muscle tissue, and other changes have been documented. In fact, in some cases, lividity can be seen as soon as 15 minutes post-mortem. Between 2-4 hours after death, body temperature begins to drop (Haglund and Sorg, 1997), chemical changes in muscles begin and autolysis advances.

We want to begin to learn, understand, and document the minimum post mortem time interval for which our dogs can perceive the difference between live and dead scent. Our window into the vivid realm of canine olfaction is, obviously, the dog's body language and more precisely, the alert sequence. The dog uses the alert to intentionally communicate to us "I have found a smell that you want". We want to know the minimum interval at which our dogs can classify a scent as dead, as opposed to live, and when that classification is distinct enough that the dog is moved to perform the trained alert.

ICF RESERCH PAPER #97-1-1: POST- MORTEM INTERVAL FOR WHICH TRAINED K9s DIFFERENTIATE LIVE HUMAN SCENT vs DECOMP SCENT

*All post-mortem scent samples consist of sterile gauze pads, (sealed until just prior to use) placed on abdominal area of decedent for exactly 20 minutes. Gauze pads are then placed in unused plastic bags and double sealed with packing tape. All post-mortem scent samples are handled with latex gloves, and at no time do these samples come in skin contact with live human scent.
*All Live Human scent samples are placed on the abdominal area of a living person for exactly 20 minutes, then placed in unused plastic bags and double sealed in the same manner as the post-mortem samples.

All trials are conducted using a lineup method:
Each consists of a line of three gauze pads - one exposed to post-mortem scent, one exposed to live human scent, and one sterile unused pad opened with gloved hands just prior to each trial.
All trials are done on a hard surface, either asphalt, cement, or hard packed dry dirt ground.
Each dog is given the "cadaver" command by its handler and walked through the lineup. The dog is then asked to choose and indicate to the handler which gauze contains post-mortem scent.
Every trial was "blind" to each handler working it, that is the handler had no prior knowledge of lineup sequence.
Dogs are given only a single choice per trial.
Choices are recorded as CORRECT or INCORRECT only.
Any dog that appeared unwilling to commit to a single sample was removed from that trial and the choice was recorded as Incorrect.
All samples are properly disposed of after each trial.

TRIALS BEGUN: January 1997
NUMBER OF DOGS USED: Five different dogs
POST-MORTEM INTERVAL RANGE: From 70 minutes to 3 days
NUMBER OF TRIALS COMPLETED: As of July 1997, total of 52 trials completed
PRELIMINARY RESULTS: The shortest post-mortem interval for which we received a correct response was one hour and 25 minutes. However, the post-mortem interval for which we received a consistently correct response from all dogs involved is 2.5 - 3 hours.

NOTES:
We emphasize our inability to control all variables during our project. It has been impossible for us to obtain scent samples and carry out the trials under strictly controlled conditions. We had no control over the environmental conditions under which our samples were gathered, manner and cause of death, nor could we exercise tight regulation over the quantity of samples of any one given time interval. Since there are periods in which our samples are few and far between, this project has no set deadline and will be ongoing for a time. Our intention is not to offer an absolute answer to the questions posed, but to initiate an ongoing dialogue and offer what we hope is a point of departure for other exciting research projects. This will shed light on the under-navigated and sometimes mysterious arena of canine olfaction applied to body recovery.

It is important to note what the dogs are not being asked to do, as well as what they are being asked to do. They are not choosing from a lineup of actual human tissue, but only from gauze pads for which great care has been taken to expose them only to dry skin regions, not to any blood or perceivable body fluids. Also note that the exposure time is exactly 20 minutes.

In addition, there are many obvious variables not addressed by this project. It will be exciting to undertake future studies that deal with such factors as difficulty of detection according to age, sex, and race of decedent and manner and cause of death.

Comments, suggestions and questions regarding this project are welcome.

http://www.csst.org/cadaver_scent.html
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 17:38

So, to address the method and results of this study:

1) Five dogs is a very small number.

2) Samples were gauze pads that were placed on the abdominal area of a decedent for 20 minutes. They were not placed in any blood or bodily fluids.  If we take Keela into account, then there was most likely blood on the floor where Eddie detected cadaverine odour.

3) Age of the decedent was not a variable.

4) Manner and cause of death of the decedent were not variables.

5) The writers of this report underline that it is just a starting point for further research.

6) The post-mortem interval range started at 70 minutes.  The earliest correct response was at 85 minutes.  We have no statistics regarding the distribution of the post-mortem intervals.  For all we know, there could have been one sample for 70 minutes (no correct response), and then one sample for 85 minutes (correct response).

7) There were no samples for earlier than 70 minutes, so post-mortem intervals of less than 70 minutes are untested.

8) The pressure of a gauze pad resting on an abdominal area is likely to be a fraction of the pressure of a dead 3-4 year old lying on a tiled floor.
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Post by Guest on 26.03.14 17:55

Also, these tests were started/done in 1997, nearly 2 decades ago. Things have changed meanwhile ...
I've tried to find more recent information, but failed. I've sent an email to see if I can find more.
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Post by Woofer on 26.03.14 17:56

Also if the soonest time after death was 70 mins that the gauze was laid on the body, 20 mins has to be added for the time the gauze was on there.
 
It would have been better if separate gauzes had just been wiped across the body at regular 5 minute intervals, then you`d have a sample from every 5 mins after death.

I suppose that`s suggesting a bit much - expecting to do such a thing to a recently deceased person - unless of course the person had previously declared their wish for it to be done.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 18:10

Bearing in mind the points that I have made about this study, should we take it as gospel that Madeleine McCann had to have been dead for at least 90-120 minutes on the floor of apartment 5A for Eddie to detect cadaverine odour?

My opinion is a definite NO.

If there have been other studies covering a wider range of variables, I would be most interested to read them.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 18:14

Châtelaine wrote:Also, these tests were started/done in 1997, nearly 2 decades ago. Things have changed meanwhile ...
I've tried to find more recent information, but failed. I've sent an email to see if I can find more.

Thank you Châtelaine, I hope that we can find out more.
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Post by Doug D on 26.03.14 18:19

Thank you for posting that WLBTS.

I don't think anyone here expects the development of cadaverine to be an exact science, but at least the 1hour 25mins gives us some sort of idea, with age, body mass, weather conditions etc presumably able to have an effect.

I appreciate this was an early study (1997), based on a very small sample, with just skin contact made and no body fluids involved, but no doubt there have been many developments on this study over the last 17 years to which SY and the PJ would have access. 

All we are looking for here is a time period of more than 45 minutes to discredit GM's statement, assuming KM's initial 'abduction' call was made at 10.00, although that time could move forward based on statements given by 'outsiders' of TM, which would further reduce this 45 minutes.

Based on this report and other things I have read saying it needs to be more than 1 hour, (which I will endeavour to trace), I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that anything less than 45 minutes would not be long enough for a dead body to give off any viable odours, sufficient for a dog to identify.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 18:25

@Doug D wrote:Thank you for posting that WLBTS.

I don't think anyone here expects the development of cadaverine to be an exact science, but at least the 1hour 25mins gives us some sort of idea, with age, body mass, weather conditions etc presumably able to have an effect.

I appreciate this was an early study (1997), based on a very small sample, with just skin contact made and no body fluids involved, but no doubt there have been many developments on this study over the last 17 years to which SY and the PJ would have access. 

All we are looking for here is a time period of more than 45 minutes to discredit GM's statement, assuming KM's initial 'abduction' call was made at 10.00, although that time could move forward based on statements given by 'outsiders' of TM, which would further reduce this 45 minutes.

Based on this report and other things I have read saying it needs to be more than 1 hour, (which I will endeavour to trace), I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that anything less than 45 minutes would not be long enough for a dead body to give off any viable odours, sufficient for a dog to identify.

Yes, but have you considered that although Madeleine McCann may have been removed within this 45 minutes, some of her blood or tissue may not have been removed as quickly?

Liver mortis can begin from 15-20 minutes onwards.  I don't see anything to support this 45 minute limit, not in the study I quoted at least.  There were no tests for a post-mortem interval of 70 minutes or less.

Just to add though, that I'm not at all saying that Gerry's alleged 9:10pm check is the truth.  I'm interested in how the cadaver dog findings affect our theories.
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Post by tigger on 26.03.14 18:35

@Woofer wrote:Also if the soonest time after death was 70 mins that the gauze was laid on the body, 20 mins has to be added for the time the gauze was on there.
 
It would have been better if separate gauzes had just been wiped across the body at regular 5 minute intervals, then you`d have a sample from every 5 mins after death.

I suppose that`s suggesting a bit much - expecting to do such a thing to a recently deceased person - unless of course the person had previously declared their wish for it to be done.

I would think that a body farm would have been used for this sort of experiment. i'd expect there to be quite a respectable number of these studies in peer-reviewed journals. So probably not a lot on the internet as these journals tend to be for subscribers only even when published online.

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Post by Guest on 26.03.14 18:36

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
Thank you Châtelaine, I hope that we can find out more.
***
My mail was returned; the address of csst doesn't exist [anymore].

BTW Years ago I did some research on development of cadaver scent and rigor mortis in children. I have a rather good memory, but cannot quote by heart now, but I remember there were significant differences. I'll see what I can find.
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Post by notlongnow on 26.03.14 18:41

@tigger wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Also if the soonest time after death was 70 mins that the gauze was laid on the body, 20 mins has to be added for the time the gauze was on there.
 
It would have been better if separate gauzes had just been wiped across the body at regular 5 minute intervals, then you`d have a sample from every 5 mins after death.

I suppose that`s suggesting a bit much - expecting to do such a thing to a recently deceased person - unless of course the person had previously declared their wish for it to be done.

I would think that a body farm would have been used for this sort  of experiment
. i'd expect there to be quite a respectable number of these studies in peer-reviewed journals. So probably not a lot on the internet as these journals tend to be for subscribers only even when published online.

Me to.



Even if the dogs could latch onto scent within minutes that doesn't explain away the car.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 18:47

@notlongnow wrote:
Me to.

Even if the dogs could latch onto scent within minutes that doesn't explain away the car.

Not saying that you have, but I don't want anybody getting the impression that I believe that it was at all possible for an intruder to have killed Maddie.

That would require that the intruder was indeed in the bedroom of 5A during Gerry's 'check', that the intruder immediately killed Maddie, laid her down behind the sofa for a long period of time before moving her to the parents' bedroom, and then removed the body at the last possible moment, while cleaning 5A of all traces of Maddie's DNA from top to bottom on his way out, with a bottle of bleach clenched between his buttocks.

Acceptance of death in 5A can mean only one thing for the McCanns. There is no fairy story that can be contrived to explain it away.
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Post by tigger on 26.03.14 19:09

@tigger wrote:
@Cristobell wrote:
@Miraflores wrote:I assumed by murder you meant that MO would have seen burglar/spottyman/tractorman/UncleTomCobbleyAndAll, accidentally killing her.

Yes.  Madeleine was alive at 9.10 when Gerry saw her, so the murder/cleanup/coverup must have occurred after that, Matt checked on the children at 9.30.



Ehhhhhh?  Is that an absolute fact?

I would like to draw attention to the fact that I responded to this post and not to a later one which is changed and has the word 'if' added.

Although I appreciate a number of explanations given to me on the amended post which imo is open to different interpretations in any case, it has nothing to do with the straightforward statement above.

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Post by Guest on 26.03.14 20:36

Taking AR's perculiar 'might have been dead when she left the apartment' statement back to zero ......... what evidence does he have for this?

If he rules out the dogs and the DNA, what's he left with?

Nothing, absolutely nothing unless he knows something we don't eg some one's spilled the (can of) beans or they have found or reanalysed forensic evidence.

It took a while for the deeper implications of his statement to sink in, but the more I think about it, it's unfathomable as to why he would introduce death in tne apartment now unless he had something solid to back it up. 

I think it's very significant.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 20:48

chilli wrote:Taking AR's perculiar 'might have been dead when she left the apartment' statement back to zero ......... what evidence does he have for this?

If he rules out the dogs and the DNA, what's he left with?

Nothing, absolutely nothing unless he knows something we don't eg some one's spilled the (can of) beans or they have found or reanalysed forensic evidence.

It took a while for the deeper implications of his statement to sink in, but the more I think about it, it's unfathomable as to why he would introduce death in tne apartment now unless he had something solid to back it up. 

I think it's very significant.

Yes indeed, the wind is changing.

Either Redwood wants us to buy an intruder that killed Maddie and removed her from 5A, or the McCanns are in big trouble.

The intruder will be very hard to push. Although, that said, our mainstream media seems to regurgitate everything they're fed these days, even if it smells really bad.
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Post by Guest on 26.03.14 21:24

chilli wrote:Taking AR's perculiar 'might have been dead when she left the apartment' statement back to zero ......... what evidence does he have for this?

If he rules out the dogs and the DNA, what's he left with?

Nothing, absolutely nothing unless he knows something we don't eg some one's spilled the (can of) beans or they have found or reanalysed forensic evidence.

It took a while for the deeper implications of his statement to sink in, but the more I think about it, it's unfathomable as to why he would introduce death in tne apartment now unless he had something solid to back it up. 

I think it's very significant.
If he's ruling out the dogs and the DNA then he's chosen (or been ordered) not to look for death in the apartment.

I think he's said this because he knows or suspects the PJ are looking for death in the apartment. It's a 'covering ass' statement, I believe, to which he can refer back if necessary, but one which he has taken great care to keep as under wraps as possible. Why else hide it beneath such obfuscation at a private press conference just after Goncalo had delivered his latest interview? He's uttered the words reluctantly because he had to, in case they were needed at a later date. My opinion,  of course.
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Post by Guest on 26.03.14 21:30

Whatever explanation he uses for death, he still has to produce the evidence for it. So what is the evidence? Dogs and DNA or something else?

Agree given the timelines and and lack of forensics he's going to have a hard time fitting an intruder into the story. In fact the finger seems to point in one or two or nine directions only.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 26.03.14 23:29

When has Redwood stated that he has ruled out the dogs and DNA?
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Post by Woofer on 26.03.14 23:56

@tigger wrote:
@Woofer wrote:Also if the soonest time after death was 70 mins that the gauze was laid on the body, 20 mins has to be added for the time the gauze was on there.
 
It would have been better if separate gauzes had just been wiped across the body at regular 5 minute intervals, then you`d have a sample from every 5 mins after death.

I suppose that`s suggesting a bit much - expecting to do such a thing to a recently deceased person - unless of course the person had previously declared their wish for it to be done.

I would think that a body farm would have been used for this sort  of experiment. i'd expect there to be quite a respectable number of these studies in peer-reviewed journals. So probably not a lot on the internet as these journals tend to be for subscribers only even when published online.


I`m not sure if the Body Farm deal in the freshly deceased which is what would be needed for that sort of experiment.  Even if people donated their bodies to the Body Farm, they surely wouldn`t take possession of it until many hours, if not days later.
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Post by Guest on 26.03.14 23:57

He hasn't but people are suggesting he might have ignored it because he's not mentioned it. But rightly so he's not said much of substance about his investigation, only mentioning evidence when he has made an appeal. 

I personally don't believe he has ruled either the dogs or the DNA out, but I don't think either would be strong enough evidence to secure a conviction. Hence my comment that if he is now entertaining death before leaving 5A then maybe he has further evidence. Perhaps just wishful thinking on my part - maybe Dee Coy is right and he is keeping his backside covered in case the PJ come up with a blinder.
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Post by Woofer on 27.03.14 0:02

Did anyone see the programme Dead Famous DNA on C4 tonight?  The fellow had collected hair from dead famous people, i.e. George III, Elvis and Hitler and taken it to a DNA research lab in America where the researcher can produce a DNA profile from 40 hairs without roots.  So Goncalo was right when he said that could be done now.

He found Elvis`s genetic profile showed likelihood of glaucoma (which he had), obesity and a tendency to thickening of the heart muscle.
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Post by Mirage on 27.03.14 0:03

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:When has Redwood stated that he has ruled out the dogs and DNA?

As Redwood appears to have been in receipt of aversive conditioning and has never managed to utter the words 'dogs' or 'DNA'  - publicly at least -  it is impossible to infer that any deductive thought processes have taken place. Ergo, it is impossible to make any meaningful extrapolation from Redwood's continuing silence in the matter. Unless we are moving into the existential phase of the investigation, that is.  

 thinking
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Post by Woofer on 27.03.14 0:05

chilli wrote:He hasn't but people are suggesting he might have ignored it because he's not mentioned it. But rightly so he's not said much of substance about his investigation, only mentioning evidence when he has made an appeal. 

I personally don't believe he has ruled either the dogs or the DNA out, but I don't think either would be strong enough evidence to secure a conviction. Hence my comment that if he is now entertaining death before leaving 5A then maybe he has further evidence. Perhaps just wishful thinking on my part - maybe Dee Coy is right and he is keeping his backside covered in case the PJ come up with a blinder.
 
Correct me if I`m wrong but he can`t get a conviction on the dog`s evidence even if he believed it.  He probably could with DNA though.

PS - As Mirage has said, Andy has never mentioned either.  All we are basing this on is that he said she might not have been alive when she left the apartment.
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