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Post by Guest on 10.01.14 11:35

@Monty Heck wrote:
Agree.  The explanation offered for needing these phones so urgently that time was spent on that very first (and crucial to the search) morning getting this organised fails to add up.  At a time when the child could feasibly have been discovered at any moment, thinking about ways of minimising phone costs in the longer term would not be formost in most people's minds.  This explanation would fit only where sufficient time had elapsed for awareness of mobile phone cost issues to become apparent, and that this was supposedly an issue in the very first hours warrants close examination.  The PJ were extremely interested in mobile phone traffic back in 2007 so perhaps the current and much publicised mobile phone trawl can be examined alongside such witness statements as those of DP and DW. 
 

There is some ambiguity about whether it was even about cost, or the charge in their own phones. On the cost front, I'm sure their network would be happy to wave any bills, under the circumstances - but, like you say, only if it came to that. She could have turned up that day! As for the charger, I can't believe they didn't take one with them. But wouldn't their phones need to be charged anyway in case a kidnapper wanted to contact them? So obtaining a charger should have been a high priority also....

So in reality, neither justification makes any sense. The one that would have made sense - you're involved in a high profile media event and don't want anybody you've ever given your number to ringing you up for the latest - seems not to have occurred to them.
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Post by Monty Heck on 10.01.14 12:12

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Agree.  The explanation offered for needing these phones so urgently that time was spent on that very first (and crucial to the search) morning getting this organised fails to add up.  At a time when the child could feasibly have been discovered at any moment, thinking about ways of minimising phone costs in the longer term would not be formost in most people's minds.  This explanation would fit only where sufficient time had elapsed for awareness of mobile phone cost issues to become apparent, and that this was supposedly an issue in the very first hours warrants close examination.  The PJ were extremely interested in mobile phone traffic back in 2007 so perhaps the current and much publicised mobile phone trawl can be examined alongside such witness statements as those of DP and DW. 
 

There is some ambiguity about whether it was even about cost, or the charge in their own phones. On the cost front, I'm sure their network would be happy to wave any bills, under the circumstances - but, like you say, only if it came to that. She could have turned up that day! As for the charger, I can't believe they didn't take one with them. But wouldn't their phones need to be charged anyway in case a kidnapper wanted to contact them? So obtaining a charger should have been a high priority also....

So in reality, neither justification makes any sense. The one that would have made sense - you're involved in a high profile media event and don't want anybody you've ever given your number to ringing you up for the latest - seems not to have occurred to them.
Spot on CR, a charger should have been the priority at that point, not new phones on that day of all days. 

And yes, strange protecting privacy wasn't put forward to explain the need for phones when it might make more sense than the supposed concerns with mobile charges.  However the T9 had only just been using their phones to contact every Tom, Dick and Harry in their address books about "the abduction". It would be strange if, only a few hours after priming all their contacts they were already so tired of people asking for updates that new phones were needed.  Also at that point it wasn't yet the high profile media event it was to become; there was early coverage but the media scrum was then still in the (near) future.
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Post by Woofer on 10.01.14 12:29

Maybe I`ve been watching too many `kidnap` films, but if a kidnap is suspected, wouldn`t the police want to rig up some sort of phone tap - or does this only take place with landlines?  Anyway how would a kidnapper know what the McCanns mobile phone numbers were?
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Post by bobbin on 10.01.14 12:42

@Monty Heck wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Agree.  The explanation offered for needing these phones so urgently that time was spent on that very first (and crucial to the search) morning getting this organised fails to add up.  At a time when the child could feasibly have been discovered at any moment, thinking about ways of minimising phone costs in the longer term would not be formost in most people's minds.  This explanation would fit only where sufficient time had elapsed for awareness of mobile phone cost issues to become apparent, and that this was supposedly an issue in the very first hours warrants close examination.  The PJ were extremely interested in mobile phone traffic back in 2007 so perhaps the current and much publicised mobile phone trawl can be examined alongside such witness statements as those of DP and DW. 
 

There is some ambiguity about whether it was even about cost, or the charge in their own phones. On the cost front, I'm sure their network would be happy to wave any bills, under the circumstances - but, like you say, only if it came to that. She could have turned up that day! As for the charger, I can't believe they didn't take one with them. But wouldn't their phones need to be charged anyway in case a kidnapper wanted to contact them? So obtaining a charger should have been a high priority also....

So in reality, neither justification makes any sense. The one that would have made sense - you're involved in a high profile media event and don't want anybody you've ever given your number to ringing you up for the latest - seems not to have occurred to them.
Spot on CR, a charger should have been the priority at that point, not new phones on that day of all days. 

And yes, strange protecting privacy wasn't put forward to explain the need for phones when it might make more sense than the supposed concerns with mobile charges.  However the T9 had only just been using their phones to contact every Tom, Dick and Harry in their address books about "the abduction". It would be strange if, only a few hours after priming all their contacts they were already so tired of people asking for updates that new phones were needed.  Also at that point it wasn't yet the high profile media event it was to become; there was early coverage but the media scrum was then still in the (near) future.
As mentioned before, at this time in particular, their friends and relatives would need to be able to contact the personal numbers that they already knew for the McCs etc. before the 'disaster'.
Interesting that the PAYG phones were initiated by 'Payne', of all the Tapas friends, via sibling of wife's husband's/friend(s) who 'knew' people in PdL and that Dianna Webster clearly showed obfuscation regarding this in her statements.
Most clearly, an interesting side-effect of PAYG would necessarily result in 'discreet/untraceable connections.
Except that the research is NOW looking at PAYG traffic.
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Post by Guest on 10.01.14 12:48

@bobbin wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Agree.  The explanation offered for needing these phones so urgently that time was spent on that very first (and crucial to the search) morning getting this organised fails to add up.  At a time when the child could feasibly have been discovered at any moment, thinking about ways of minimising phone costs in the longer term would not be formost in most people's minds.  This explanation would fit only where sufficient time had elapsed for awareness of mobile phone cost issues to become apparent, and that this was supposedly an issue in the very first hours warrants close examination.  The PJ were extremely interested in mobile phone traffic back in 2007 so perhaps the current and much publicised mobile phone trawl can be examined alongside such witness statements as those of DP and DW. 
 

There is some ambiguity about whether it was even about cost, or the charge in their own phones. On the cost front, I'm sure their network would be happy to wave any bills, under the circumstances - but, like you say, only if it came to that. She could have turned up that day! As for the charger, I can't believe they didn't take one with them. But wouldn't their phones need to be charged anyway in case a kidnapper wanted to contact them? So obtaining a charger should have been a high priority also....

So in reality, neither justification makes any sense. The one that would have made sense - you're involved in a high profile media event and don't want anybody you've ever given your number to ringing you up for the latest - seems not to have occurred to them.
Spot on CR, a charger should have been the priority at that point, not new phones on that day of all days. 

And yes, strange protecting privacy wasn't put forward to explain the need for phones when it might make more sense than the supposed concerns with mobile charges.  However the T9 had only just been using their phones to contact every Tom, Dick and Harry in their address books about "the abduction". It would be strange if, only a few hours after priming all their contacts they were already so tired of people asking for updates that new phones were needed.  Also at that point it wasn't yet the high profile media event it was to become; there was early coverage but the media scrum was then still in the (near) future.
As mentioned before, at this time in particular, their friends and relatives would need to be able to contact the personal numbers that they already knew for the McCs etc. before the 'disaster'.
Interesting that the PAYG phones were initiated by 'Payne', of all the Tapas friends, via sibling of wife's husband's/friend(s) who 'knew' people in PdL and that Dianna Webster clearly showed obfuscation regarding this in her statements.
Most clearly, an interesting side-effect of PAYG would necessarily result in 'discreet/untraceable connections.
Except that the research is NOW looking at PAYG traffic.

Had you noticed this sibling of wife etc etc ALSO provided rooms on request? So DP informs us, helpfully

Why would a room outside the complex be called for by ANY of the Mecs & friends, as they all had a roof over their heads at MWs'?
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Post by bobbin on 10.01.14 13:08

@Portia wrote:
@bobbin wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Monty Heck wrote:
Agree.  The explanation offered for needing these phones so urgently that time was spent on that very first (and crucial to the search) morning getting this organised fails to add up.  At a time when the child could feasibly have been discovered at any moment, thinking about ways of minimising phone costs in the longer term would not be formost in most people's minds.  This explanation would fit only where sufficient time had elapsed for awareness of mobile phone cost issues to become apparent, and that this was supposedly an issue in the very first hours warrants close examination.  The PJ were extremely interested in mobile phone traffic back in 2007 so perhaps the current and much publicised mobile phone trawl can be examined alongside such witness statements as those of DP and DW. 
 

There is some ambiguity about whether it was even about cost, or the charge in their own phones. On the cost front, I'm sure their network would be happy to wave any bills, under the circumstances - but, like you say, only if it came to that. She could have turned up that day! As for the charger, I can't believe they didn't take one with them. But wouldn't their phones need to be charged anyway in case a kidnapper wanted to contact them? So obtaining a charger should have been a high priority also....

So in reality, neither justification makes any sense. The one that would have made sense - you're involved in a high profile media event and don't want anybody you've ever given your number to ringing you up for the latest - seems not to have occurred to them.
Spot on CR, a charger should have been the priority at that point, not new phones on that day of all days. 

And yes, strange protecting privacy wasn't put forward to explain the need for phones when it might make more sense than the supposed concerns with mobile charges.  However the T9 had only just been using their phones to contact every Tom, Dick and Harry in their address books about "the abduction". It would be strange if, only a few hours after priming all their contacts they were already so tired of people asking for updates that new phones were needed.  Also at that point it wasn't yet the high profile media event it was to become; there was early coverage but the media scrum was then still in the (near) future.
As mentioned before, at this time in particular, their friends and relatives would need to be able to contact the personal numbers that they already knew for the McCs etc. before the 'disaster'.
Interesting that the PAYG phones were initiated by 'Payne', of all the Tapas friends, via sibling of wife's husband's/friend(s) who 'knew' people in PdL and that Dianna Webster clearly showed obfuscation regarding this in her statements.
Most clearly, an interesting side-effect of PAYG would necessarily result in 'discreet/untraceable connections.
Except that the research is NOW looking at PAYG traffic.

Had you noticed this sibling of wife etc etc ALSO provided rooms on request? So DP informs us, helpfully

Why would a room outside the complex be called for by ANY of the Mecs & friends, as they all had a roof over their heads at MWs'?
Might have been a naive thought on their part that as the Paynes' holiday was ended maybe the rooms would be needed for the next tourists.
Paynes didn't take the offer up though.
It was probably more important that they were on the spot to keep a very tight eye on (police) progress and to have the McCs upstairs, or very close by, to discuss procedures.
Had the Paynes been in a separate accommodation off campus, confabulation with the McCs would have been difficult.
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Post by Rufus T on 10.01.14 13:46

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@Daisy wrote:
4078    “Do you know a Dave MIDDLETON?”
 Reply    “Dave MIDDLETON? (Shakes head).”

So is Dave Middleton the Algarve contact of Simon Aldridge?

Wasn't there a mysterious Dave who assisted in the searches of the OC apartments?

There is a Dave Middleton who actually works for Sandtoft and just to add Simon Aldridge is actually Simon Oldridge who is or was MD of that company. The way Diane hums and haws about it in her rog. she makes it sound as though he is just a jobbing tiler.

Funny I have been wondering about the mystery Dave and the name Symington just keeps coming back to me.
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 10.01.14 14:02

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10563621/Madeleine-McCann-Scotland-Yard-requests-more-help-from-Portugal.html

No mention of burglars here, seems to be an official statement from Scotland Yard. Makes me wonder whether the '3 burglars' story was spun out to the press by Team McCann in anticipation of this announcement.
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Post by suep on 10.01.14 15:12

I read somewhere that David Payne kept very close to Kate on the day after the disappearance and also wanted to sit in while she was being interviewed by police. Is that right? I also recall that Sylvia Baptista or some MW employee commented that DP and FP were 'hysterical' on the night Madeleine went missing. What was all that about?
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Post by whatliesbehindthesofa on 10.01.14 15:15

@suep wrote:I read somewhere that David Payne kept very close to Kate on the day after the disappearance and also wanted to sit in while she was being interviewed by police. Is that right? I also recall that Sylvia Baptista or some MW employee commented that DP and FP were 'hysterical'  on the night Madeleine went missing. What was all that about?

I have a hunch that it may have something to do with the legendary 7pm-ish visit.
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Post by marconi on 10.01.14 15:56

There is a new article ( Telegraph) on McCannfiles, talking about official letters from the Yard, most to Europe.

Not all of them? Who knows also to Canada, about the Hubbards?
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Post by Bishop Brennan on 10.01.14 16:03

@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10563621/Madeleine-McCann-Scotland-Yard-requests-more-help-from-Portugal.html

No mention of burglars here, seems to be an official statement from Scotland Yard.  Makes me wonder whether the '3 burglars' story was spun out to the press by Team McCann in anticipation of this announcement.

I dunno. I think SY are going along the only track they are allowed - chasing random people who were in the area on the day. This time it's the 3 Burglermen - and I suspect this request is simply to bring them in for questioning, to see if there is anything of interest to be learned... As if...!

Just going through the motions - and the money. What else can they do. Their instructions were clear. Investigate everything but do not look at the McCanns or the Tapas 7. And they are not wavering from that. And presumably will continue to follow that path until either they give up, or (our) money runs out.
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Post by Guest on 11.01.14 9:23

Paulo Cristovão's book: A Estrela de Madeleine

Chapter 13 – The winding road to Truth

Even if some criminal had entered the apartment and taken the little girl, what residues would have been left behind? Unless the person had sneezed or grabbed the door handle without gloves, there would have been nothing.

With luck, some footprints might have been preserved, but by the time that the police arrived on location, tens of people had walked through the apartment, covering the footprints of a possible stranger with their own.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4917-chapter-13-the-winding-road-to-truth

Exactly, so how is SY/AR going to place three burglar's or even one in 5A  where's the evidence? are they hoping for a conffession? IMO they seem to be living in the world of Walter Mitty!!
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Post by currio on 11.01.14 10:36

@Bishop Brennan wrote:
@whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/madeleinemccann/10563621/Madeleine-McCann-Scotland-Yard-requests-more-help-from-Portugal.html

No mention of burglars here, seems to be an official statement from Scotland Yard.  Makes me wonder whether the '3 burglars' story was spun out to the press by Team McCann in anticipation of this announcement.

I dunno.  I think SY are going along the only track they are allowed - chasing random people who were in the area on the day.  This time it's the 3 Burglermen - and I suspect this request is simply to bring them in for questioning, to see if there is anything of interest to be learned...  As if...!

Just going through the motions - and the money.  What else can they do.  Their instructions were clear.  Investigate everything but do not look at the McCanns or the Tapas 7.  And they are not wavering from that.   And presumably will continue to follow that path until either they give up, or (our) money runs out.  

This is precisely how I see it too, Bishop Brennan. Redwood appears to be angry about it, as though he doesn't want to be involced. His hands are tied and he just has to toe the line!
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Post by Guest on 11.01.14 11:02

@suep wrote:I read somewhere that David Payne kept very close to Kate on the day after the disappearance and also wanted to sit in while she was being interviewed by police. Is that right? I also recall that Sylvia Baptista or some MW employee commented that DP and FP were 'hysterical'  on the night Madeleine went missing. What was all that about?


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_INFORMATION.htm

I wondered where I'd seen that, and found it again in the official PD timeline, above, compiled mainly from independent witnesses, workers and guests at the OC. Definitely worth a 'back to basics' re-read.  I didn't know, for example, that Gerry had prayed to Allah twice, once in the OC reception and then again with Kate in the bedroom.

Yvonne Martin's recollections re DP are also there, and both Paynes were like glue to GandK for the first 13 hours at least. The 'gap' in the phone activity at the crucial period is also illustrated.

Most interesting for me is the account of the witness who left her apartment at 9.58 (time definitely checked - a concrete mark in the timeline) and noted that all was normal and quiet at 5A at 10 o'clock, no disturbance, panic or searching going on. This backs up Mrs Fenn's statement that she heard the commotion later, at 10.30ish.

Definitely worth at re-read for me now I know so much more about the case since CW, when I first started mugging up. Given me a lot more clarity. How many of the earlier times given are wild guestimates?
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Post by debs on 11.01.14 11:27

what exactly do burglars talk about on the phone? eg "see you outside 5A at 9 tonight Jose, but watch out in case anyone comes back, we nearly got caught the other day but I can't be bothered driving to another town", or (after the event) "cor that was close, maybe we should have left the kid behind after all, have you still got her Alberto"
and isnt 3 burglars for one holiday apartment rather a lot of burglars?
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Post by jeanmonroe on 11.01.14 11:58

Cherry Blossom:
"are they hoping for a confession"?
===================================

Nah, they can't get in! The McCanns have got all the keys to all the Churches!
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Post by NickE on 11.01.14 12:04

@debs wrote:what exactly do burglars talk about on the phone? eg "see you outside 5A at 9 tonight Jose, but watch out in case anyone comes back, we nearly got caught the other day but I can't be bothered driving to another town", or (after the event) "cor that was close, maybe we should have left the kid behind after all, have you still got her Alberto"
and isnt 3 burglars for one holiday apartment rather a lot of burglars?
They called each other because one of them saw a british man carry a child from the apartment.
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Post by Guest on 11.01.14 12:10

@NickE wrote:
They called each other because one of them saw a british man carry a child from the apartment.
***
Or found a dead child behind the sofa ... and legged it.
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Post by PeterMac on 11.01.14 13:56

Châtelaine wrote:
@NickE wrote:
They called each other because one of them saw a british man carry a child from the apartment.
***
Or found a dead child behind the sofa ... and legged it.

. . . pausing only to wipe up some cadaverine for the floor, for planting later . . .

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Post by Guest on 11.01.14 14:01

No, Peter. He didn't take her, of course.
But .... just imagine, it would be true: a burglar/burglars, who enter a holiday apartment without problem and indeed find something behind the sofa. They would make great witnesses and their minor sins be forgiven ... No?
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Post by Guest on 12.01.14 5:45

@jeanmonroe wrote:Cherry Blossom:
"are they hoping for a confession"?
===================================

Nah, they can't get in! The McCanns have got all the keys to all the Churches!

 laughat  Love the wit
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Post by ultimaThule on 12.01.14 6:10

I've lost count of the times I've  spit coffee  and  rotfl when reading jeanmonroe's pithy (not to be confused with a non-lisping version of the word) take on past, present, and future events. 

Long may you dispense your wisdom here, jm  roses
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Post by Guest on 12.01.14 6:22

@ultimaThule wrote:I've lost count of the times I've  spit coffee  and  rotfl when reading jeanmonroe's pithy (not to be confused with a non-lisping version of the word) take on past, present, and future events. 

Long may you dispense your wisdom here, jm  roses

Seconded, where wit is concerned jm seems to be the sharpest knife in the box. jm  roses 
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Post by suep on 12.01.14 6:50

@jeanmonroe wrote:Cherry Blossom:
"are they hoping for a confession"?
===================================

Nah, they can't get in! The McCanns have got all the keys to all the Churches!

 lol  laugh  
The only key they haven't got yet is the "key piece of evidence" that Gerry's always talking about that will open the door to the "complete mystery" of who "abducted" their daughter...that's the reason they want a gullible public to think they've re-opened their "charity" shop I suppose. laugh 
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