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Post by Over The Hill on 31.12.13 10:42

candyfloss wrote:How do you square this then from just a few weeks ago........ where is this fact, nothing has been proven, yet we have a front page like this!
Candy, it's shocking journalism. But when you're dead, you can't be libelled so certain papers know they will get away with it. But it's no excuse
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Post by Over The Hill on 31.12.13 10:48

@sami wrote:I have rarely, if ever, seen a reference to Amaral without the prefix "disgraced cop".  Leaving out such references in articles might be a starting point.
Using terms like that to discredit someone is often a way of avoiding libel when repeating what they have said. Actually, it's still libellous but I can't recall a case being brought in such circumstances
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Post by saltnpepper on 31.12.13 11:01

The entire media has whooshed abduction when describing May 3rd...we see a Maddie article with free wine, a soft cuddly toy, doctors & Alzheimer's on the same page, it looks like the media are working with SY/authorities to keep this case safe from prejudice for a future trial
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Post by jeanmonroe on 31.12.13 11:19

@Over The Hill wrote:
candyfloss wrote:How do you square this then from just a few weeks ago........ where is this fact, nothing has been proven, yet we have a front page like this!
Candy, it's shocking journalism. But when you're dead, you can't be libelled so certain papers know they will get away with it. But it's no excuse

Welcome back OTH.

I have no qualms 'debating' with you at all.

However, i really think that you should apologise, publicly on this forum, about your written statement that 'TB libelled the McCanns.'

Otherwise people might perceive you as being 'biased' towards somebody you don't possibly know personally.

A perception that you have now stated seems to be the case for the madia not reporting 'even handedly' factual information, already legally in the public domain, about a serious case.

What do you think about the BBC 'unbiased' reporter who said that GA had said 'Fcuk the McCanns' and broadcasted that on a national tv station?

And the bactracking (apology?) the BBC (nachanul treassha, innit?) had to make, after an official complaint was upheld, when it was estasblished that GA had never said such a thing?
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Post by RIPM on 31.12.13 12:03

@Over The Hill wrote:
@TMH wrote:Hmmm but there have been numerous times that the press and media have reported wrongly? The Daily Mail even has a regular slot on page 2 titled "corrections".
Yes but the printed press tend to stick their necks out a bit more and just print an apology if it turns out to be wrong (as has happened in this case)

BBC, ITN and Sky newsrooms are instructed from the very top to check stories out and not use them unless they are verified

I know that the Beeb in particular has made a few cock-ups in the last year or so, but those of us who work in this field of activity were amazed at the lack of professionalism in those cases, and those responsible paid with their jobs
So according to you OTH those responsible for the BBC East Midlands Today news programme regarding "fuck the McCanns" have paid with their jobs.
Sorry but this is utter tosh.

 Mike o'Sullivan nor anyone else has been dismissed.Listen to O'Sullivan outside the Portuguese court "Gerry Gerry theres no evidence against you is there Gerry" Impartial reporting you cannot be serious?

If the BBC had checked a few details on 3 May before running the story would we still be here? I doubt it.
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Post by tiny on 31.12.13 12:12

@Over The Hill wrote:
candyfloss wrote:How do you square this then from just a few weeks ago........ where is this fact, nothing has been proven, yet we have a front page like this!
Candy, it's shocking journalism. But when you're dead, you can't be libelled so certain papers know they will get away with it. But it's no excuse

Its not only shocking but downright appalling that the papers can do this to a dead man just so the mccanns are not implicated in Madeleine,s disappearance.
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Post by Liz Eagles on 31.12.13 12:19

The BBC ought to be toast. The reason it's not is that it's a propoganda machine for the government imo (no hot water bottles needed in those beds as it's all nice and cosy).

To suggest that the BBC are incapable of biased reporting is an insult imo.

Years and years of Savile being heralded as a great fundraiser when it's obvious people at the Beeb knew what was going on is enough to make you reach for a sick-bag.

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Post by jeanmonroe on 31.12.13 12:34

aquila wrote:The BBC ought to be toast. The reason it's not is that it's a propoganda machine for the government imo (no hot water bottles needed in those beds as it's all nice and cosy).

To suggest that the BBC are incapable of biased reporting is an insult imo.

Years and years of Savile being heralded as a great fundraiser when it's obvious people at the Beeb knew what was going on is enough to make you reach for a sick-bag.

Not only did they know, not a single one of them did anything about him.!

Well, when i say they didn't do anything, i mean they did manage to suppress a newsnight investigation exposing, probably wrong word, him and did manage to broadcast a lovely tribute programme about him and his wonderful 'work' with the less fortunate children of society.

The BBC did eventually 'pay off' the DG.

But he was head of vision at the time of the 'tribute' programme and didn't want his xmas 'schedules' interupted by his flagship investigation team!

And the BBC paid him TWICE as much as he was contractually entitled to!

Funny ol' world innit, where you totally fail to protect kids from your untouchable star performer and get handsomely rewarded for doing so!
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Post by Liz Eagles on 31.12.13 12:39

@jeanmonroe wrote:
aquila wrote:The BBC ought to be toast. The reason it's not is that it's a propoganda machine for the government imo (no hot water bottles needed in those beds as it's all nice and cosy).

To suggest that the BBC are incapable of biased reporting is an insult imo.

Years and years of Savile being heralded as a great fundraiser when it's obvious people at the Beeb knew what was going on is enough to make you reach for a sick-bag.

Not only did they know, not a single one of them did anything about him.!

Well, when i say they didn't do anything, i mean they did manage to suppress a newsnight investigation exposing, probably wrong word, him and did manage to broadcast a lovely tribute programme about him and his wonderful 'work' with the less fortunate children of society.
When you apply the principle of balanced news reporting to the BBC, how come Madeleine's disappearance is almost sugar-coated. No balanced reporting that I can see.
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Post by Over The Hill on 31.12.13 12:49

aquila wrote:When you apply the principle of balanced news reporting to the BBC, how come Madeleine's disappearance is almost sugar-coated. No balanced reporting that I can see.
Try to stand away from the forum and see things from a wider perspective
All we have is a situation where a girl is missing

What is there to balance?
You can't expect the BBC to cast doubt on the behaviour of the parents, because in the eyes of the law they are just parents of a missing girl. It isn't the job of the BBC to point fingers at them or offset every Crecheman/Smithman/Tractorman/Hewlitt/cleaners/Posh Spice-lookalike/Amsterdam/gypsy story with innuendo suggesting that the parents might be implicated

That isn't balance. Ask Chris Jefferies. Balance would be analysing those press articles for accuracy before they are broadcast
But to be fair, the broadcast media haven't reported nearly as many of those as the written press
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Post by Liz Eagles on 31.12.13 12:57

@Over The Hill wrote:
aquila wrote:When you apply the principle of balanced news reporting to the BBC, how come Madeleine's disappearance is almost sugar-coated. No balanced reporting that I can see.
Try to stand away from the forum and see things from a wider perspective
All we have is a situation where a girl is missing

What is there to balance?
You can't expect the BBC to cast doubt on the behaviour of the parents because in the eyes of the law they are just parents of a missing girl. It isn't the job of the BBC to point fingers at them or offset every Crecheman/Smithman/Tractorman/Hewlitt/cleaners/Posh Spice-lookalike/Amsterdam/gypsy story with innuendo suggesting that the parents might be implicated

That isn't balance. Balance would be analysing those press articles for accuracy before they are broadcast
But to be fair, the broadcast media haven't reported nearly as many of those as the written press
So, let's forget that just about every important agency was available to the McCanns within hours of Madeleine's disappearance. Let's overlook that the 'big boys' i.e. British Consulate et al swooped in at the speed of light. Let's forget that Prime Minister(s) and the wife of a Prime Minister called the McCanns. Let's forget the head of the government Media Monitoring was seconded. Let's forget all of that. Put it all to one side.

Let's look at exactly what the BBC did report in its supposedly 'unbiased' way. Forget about Tractor Man and the rest of the crew. What exactly did the BBC report that wasn't completely in line with TM?

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Post by jeanmonroe on 31.12.13 12:58

And. of course, If the BBC's 'shiny new stars' the McCanns, are ever implicated in their daughter's 'disappearance' everyone at the BBC will be screaming from the rooftops 'we all KNEW, right from day 1, there was something dodgy about them, they didn't fool us, not for one minute!'
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Post by jeanmonroe on 31.12.13 13:15

@Over The Hill wrote:
aquila wrote:When you apply the principle of balanced news reporting to the BBC, how come Madeleine's disappearance is almost sugar-coated. No balanced reporting that I can see.
Try to stand away from the forum and see things from a wider perspective
All we have is a situation where a girl is missing

What is there to balance?
You can't expect the BBC to cast doubt on the behaviour of the parents, because in the eyes of the law they are just parents of a missing girl. It isn't the job of the BBC to point fingers at them or offset every
Crecheman/Smithman/Tractorman/Hewlitt/cleaners/Posh Spice-lookalike/Amsterdam/gypsy story with innuendo suggesting that the parents might be implicated

That isn't balance. Ask Chris Jefferies. Balance would be analysing those press articles for accuracy before they are broadcast
But to be fair, the broadcast media haven't reported nearly as many of those as the written press

I see you haven't apologised, as yet, about your potentially libellous statement about TB.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:


"What is there to balance?
You can't expect the BBC to cast doubt on the behaviour of the parents, because in the eyes of the law they are just parents of a missing girl. It isn't the job of the BBC to point fingers at them"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What i expect the BBC to do, in the interest of balance, is to report qualified FACTS, for the sake of 'balance'

What i expect the BBC to do, in the interest of balance, is to point out the descrepancies and contradictions, giving in sworn statements, by friends of the parents connected to the case of a missing child.

What i expect the BBC to do, in the interest of balance, is to point out to the public that the one of missing child's parents didn't even bother to search for that child because 'it was dark'

What i expect the BBC to do, in the interest of balance, is to inform the public that the mother of a missing child is somehow 'glad' the investigation into the childs 'disappearance' is shelved and archived!

What i expect the BBC to do, in the interest of balance, is to report to the public that  the mother of a missing child, publicly said 'whether the case (of my missing child) is re-opened, or NOT, it dosen't matter'!

How many people in the UK actually 'know' Kate McCann said that?

The BBC has never 'broadcasted' that.

What is there to 'balance'.?

Err, everything.

NOT just the McCanns 'story' because only they SAID so!
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Post by RIPM on 31.12.13 13:19

@Over The Hill wrote:
aquila wrote:When you apply the principle of balanced news reporting to the BBC, how come Madeleine's disappearance is almost sugar-coated. No balanced reporting that I can see.
Try to stand away from the forum and see things from a wider perspective
All we have is a situation where a girl is missing

What is there to balance?
You can't expect the BBC to cast doubt on the behaviour of the parents, because in the eyes of the law they are just parents of a missing girl. It isn't the job of the BBC to point fingers at them or offset every Crecheman/Smithman/Tractorman/Hewlitt/cleaners/Posh Spice-lookalike/Amsterdam/gypsy story with innuendo suggesting that the parents might be implicated

That isn't balance. Ask Chris Jefferies. Balance would be analysing those press articles for accuracy before they are broadcast
But to be fair, the broadcast media haven't reported nearly as many of those as the written press
I can expect the BBC to use the word missing, disappeared or vanished but no we have had abduction, abduction, abduction.

You say "deductions and conclusions on TV news are made on absolute facts and absolute facts alone, TV news only report facts , no guesses or speculation".

So where did the BBC get the absolute fact that Madeleine was abducted and what drew them to that conclusion?  I have asked the BBC several times to answer this, they have so far declined.  Perhaps you OTH, as their spokesman of the moment, could enlighten me.
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Post by Over The Hill on 31.12.13 13:31

I've said enough times that there has been a lot of bad journalism, I can't be held reponsible for every mistake and I have done everything I can to ensure that areas that I work in operate to the highest level

I didn't come here for a debate, I came to shed some light on certain specialist work procedures for forum members. I thought it might help you, but somehow you expect me to be the spokesperson and apologist for all broadcast media

I'm not, sorry to disappoint you
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Post by tiny on 31.12.13 13:36

You haven't disappointed me,you have show me that the bbc and the daily,s are not worth a t***,and for that I thank you
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Post by saltnpepper on 31.12.13 13:38

Welcome from me OTH...most interested in your take on the media stance, as i have been with others
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Post by Smokeandmirrors on 31.12.13 13:39

@PeterMac wrote:
@Over The Hill wrote:TB libelled the McCanns under English Law, and it was reported
I've already answered all the rest

HANG ON A MINUTE

Tony BENNETT has never been found 'guilty" of libel in an English Court of Law.  NEVER.
to say, or even to imply so may itself be defamatory of him. .

The twisting and turning of the legal procedures which led to his being sentenced to a term of imprisonment do not depend on his having defamed anyone.  Ever.
That was never put to the test, never argued, and never proved.

They relate purely to his breach of an undertaking to the Court.

I know that some people find the machinations of firms like C-R, and of the High Court, and indeed English Law generally, difficult to understand
but let us say it again,so that it shall be understood
TB HAS NOT BEEN FOUND 'GUILTY' OF LIBEL
For that matter nor has Dr Gonçalo Amaral.
Nor anyone else who has had views different from those expounded and promulgated and proselytised by the McCanns and their accolytes.

OTH, I think if you retract the incorrect statement you made about Tony, future discussions could run more smoothly.

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Post by Okeydokey on 31.12.13 13:47

@Over The Hill wrote:I've said enough times that there has been a lot of bad journalism, I can't be held reponsible for every mistake and I have done everything I can to ensure that areas that I work in operate to the highest level

I didn't come here for a debate, I came to shed some light on certain specialist work procedures for forum members. I thought it might help you, but somehow you expect me to be the spokesperson and apologist for all broadcast media

I'm not, sorry to disappoint you

You keep claiming expertise and on the basis of that claim you assert that UK media are not protected from allegations of libel when reporting on foreign libel trials. But you have yet to respond to this from the Carter-Ruck (!) site which shows that in fact such reports do enjoy legal privilege:

"Reports of proceedings listed in Schedule 1 Defamation Act 1996  
The Defamation Act 1996 lists a number of publications which are covered by qualified privilege.  These include fair and accurate reports of public proceedings in legislatures, courts, and international conferences anywhere in the world.  The report does not have to be contemporaneous."

So I am afraid all your claims of expert knowledge in this field look pretty hollow to me.
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Post by jeanmonroe on 31.12.13 13:53

I concur witn S&M on a retraction.

Anyway, OTH you do disappoint.

You display intelligence to 'debate'

However, your, what's the word, er, 'obscuration' to avoid answering many of the points raised IS very disappointing.

One last chance for you, my friend, do you think that the 'balance' shown in the UK media, for both sides of a 'debate' about a 'missing' child has been unbiasedly reported?
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Post by saltnpepper on 31.12.13 13:57

Lets say the BBC SKY ITV CH4 & all UK media imply, like we do, that the abduction is one big scam...where does that leave a future trial? OTH is saying the Media can only work with proven facts & within current libel laws
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Post by Okeydokey on 31.12.13 14:24

@saltnpepper wrote:Lets say the BBC SKY ITV CH4 & all UK media imply, like we do, that the abduction is one big scam...where does that leave a future trial? OTH is saying the Media can only work with proven facts & within current libel laws

It would have no effect on a future trial.  Look at the Daily Mail case where the paper directly accused a number of men of murder - two of whom were later convicted.

However, are we really asking the TV channels to say the abduction is a big scam. I don't think so. We - or most of us - are just asking the UK media to report on the investigation, the fund, the McCann's detectives and the libel trial in an open and honest fashion.
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Post by Cristobell on 31.12.13 15:16

@saltnpepper wrote:Lets say the BBC SKY ITV CH4 & all UK media imply, like we do, that the abduction is one big scam...where does that leave a future trial? OTH is saying the Media can only work with proven facts & within current libel laws



We also have to factor in human bias, opinion etc. Unfortunately, as has been clear this past 6+ years, a large number of influential people believe the McCanns abduction story and see suspicion of them as wicked, Lorraine Kelly and Lord Leveson being prime examples. We can only guess at their naivety, it may be that they have not examined the case fully, and that they have dismissed everything negative as not worth reading.

It is a ghastly thought that nice, middle class professionals could possibly be involved in anything so sordid,and in order to maintain their own status quo and the 'safe' world they live in, some people filter out that which upsets the paradigm. Of course that doesn't explain the actions of the mainstream experts, those who made documentaries to portray the couple as innocent.

As we have seen over the years, those who defend the McCanns dig their heels in and become enraged when it is suggested that the parents may have had something to do with her disappearance. They believe there is a genuine campaign on the internet that is based on hate for the McCanns because they are attractive, middle class and educated. So convincing have the McCanns been with their victimhood, even previously rational, intelligent adults, become incensed at what they see as a rabble congregating to attack everything they hold dear.

In a way I can understand their anger. I too would be enraged if I saw internet groups questioning every aspect of the lives of genuine people caught up in tragedy. I won't mention any victims' names, because they choose privacy and I respect that, but we can all think of tragedies where our hearts have gone out to parents caught up in real nightmares, where we have been able to empathise with everything they say. People who attack them appall me, but I believe they are very few. No doubt there are sick people out there who do focus on other people's tragedy, but in this case they are rightly ignored and most were weeded out in the very early days. They are simply not tolerated.

Trying to understand the mentality of those who support the McCanns to the extent that they will not listen to the facts is an endless task, but that mentality exists at every level of society, including among those who have the power and the influence to dictate what we read in our newspapers and see on our tv screens. The human factor will always take precedence and the people who hold the power will choose to publish or broadcast what they personally deem appropriate. They do however spread the blame around when it all goes wrong.

As I mentioned previously, if we stick to the letter of the law, we will be here forever, Laws are manmade and man ipulated to suit those who have wallets big enough to keep paying. Its quite an enriching profession, particularly when parties become fixated on a point of law with 20m precedents.

But I digress, I have not been able to put my finger on whatever it is that has gripped a section of society to such an extent that they refuse to see reason and it will be interesting to see how they react once the truth is out.






















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Post by Ochosi on 31.12.13 15:26

Well. I haven’t paid as much attention to the MSM as a lot of people posting here. I rarely read newspapers, but do watch the news on TV, as well as source it on the internet.

I expect someone has said most of this somewhere, but, my take on it, is – initially, it is a very engaging story to the public – missing child, and abroad. So everyone’s all over it and there’s sympathy for the parents, as would be expected.

Post Arguido status/dog info – attitudes waver. But – I’d say in the main, people – press and public like to believe Brits abroad can surely not be guilty of what they’re accused of? Also, people don’t want to believe that parents would be involved in the disappearance of their child. So the media splits a bit.

McCanns then show their litigious side and I would imagine, a lot of press – papers and broadcasters, become wary of what they may say. Maybe broadcasters more so – I think OTH implied/said they would be more cautious than press for various reasons.
I’m not sure that libel trials get much coverage in general. Initial – x is being sued by y is reported. Only if something considered salacious, it seems, do the proceedings get mentioned again.

I don’t know if there is bias in the MSM because they are staunch McCann supporters, or if it’s just lazy journalism and no-one’s interested enough to do investigative pieces, dedicated enough to attempt a piece that may be viewed as negative to the McCanns and incur their call to the lawyers  - considering the work they’d have to put into expressing a piece, that couldn’t be litigated against/that they wouldn’t be forced to write a retraction on.

Headlines with no substance are easier to sell. Most people will buy and a lot won’t even notice it lacked substance once they’ve read it.
The tractor accident man piece was disgusting.

Post Crimewatch – and I am still not sure what the purpose of the 14th October edition was, it was completely confused and shambolic to me – there hasn’t been much on the McCanns broadcast, I don’t think? Could people complaining about the over coverage of the McCanns/one missing child have made broadcasters more reticent? I don’t know.

I think a lot of the press is lazy. I think a lot of the press is just fuelled by turning profits and taking particular political standpoints. I think 24 hr news coverage is a mirage we’ve all been sold. (Not sure if mirage is the word I was looking for). 24 hours to cover all manner of items, from all round the globe – we get the same handful of stories on a loop.
I also think if we were as interested in other issues to the degree we are in the Madeleine McCann case, had an equal amount of information about our chosen interest - and applied the same sceptical eyes to the coverage thereof, we would find similar inconsistencies in reporting and bad journalism.

Anyway, I’ve rambled somewhat. I think what I’m trying to say, is that I don’t believe the MSM are positively pro McCann – i.e.positively as a considered choice because they don't doubt anything the McCanns have said, but are generally blasé about in-depth analysis of situations and are also wary of litigation.
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Sunday Times apology - Page 8 Empty Re: Sunday Times apology

Post by PeterMac on 31.12.13 15:32

@Cristobell wrote:  Unfortunately, as has been clear this past 6+ years, a large number of influential people believe the McCanns abduction story and see suspicion of them as wicked, Lorraine Kelly and Lord Leveson  being prime examples.  We can only guess at their naivety, it may be that they have not examined the case fully, and that they have dismissed everything negative as not worth reading.  

One of the highlights was His Honour Mr Justice Tugendhat who, according to the transcripts we have mused aloud during the case against TB to the effect
"I wonder what would be the legal position if Madeleine had NOT been abducted"

I trust he can be relied on at the appropriate moment to do the right thing.
PeterMac
PeterMac
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