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Being in two places at once

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 21.11.13 22:37

FWIW indeed NFWTD ... smilie 
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.11.13 22:39

Hicks wrote:
Tony, am I right in thinking that Murat's-then-girlfriend, MW, claimed that on the night of the 3rd she was at a Jehovah's Witness meeting? - however this was denied as it was said she had been thrown out of the group some time before?
Hicks,

I keep on having to retrieve parts of my article on Murat for people who have never read it. It would save a lot of trouble if people did read it, though I'm not sure how much is still availabe as I had to take big chunks of it down for legal reasons. I don't mean to critcise in the least, by the way, it's just that time and again misunderstandings about Murat crop up - and I find that I've dealt with them, if not answered them, in that 6-part article.

Here I reproduce pages 81 to 86 from that article, which begins with a short essay on Michaela Walczuk and the Jehovah's Witnesses, and goes on to one or two other things which readers here may find of interest. I've not updated it since it was written over three years ago:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Michaela Walczuk’s claim of attending a Jehovah’s Witness meeting on the evening of 3 May

At this point we will look briefly at one other controversial matter, namely Michaela Walczuk’s claim that on the evening of 3 May she was at a Jehovah’s Witness meeting.

Michaela Walczuk claimed that from around 6.30pm to 8.30pm on 3 May, she was attending a Jehovah’s Witness (JW) congregation in Lagos de Baia. She is careful, however, in her second statement to the police to make clear that whilst she attends the assemblies, she no longer takes part in what are called the ‘congregational classes’. She explained that because she had ‘betrayed’ her husband in her affair with Robert Murat, she had not been practising the religious principles of her faith.

She claimed that the JW meeting lasted from 6.30pm to nearly 8.30pm. She then goes on to say that she did not on this occasion stay behind to talk to other members as she usually did. She says she left ‘without speaking to anyone’. She said that the reason was because she had her young daughter with her and had to leave early because it was ‘a school night’. 
If it was an assembly she attended and not a class, and if - as Michaela implies - she left without talking to anyone, it would be hard for the police to confirm whether Michaela was present or not.

In her second statement (but not her first), she told police: “For about three years, I attended the assemblies, but did not take part in the congregation, only because I had betrayed my husband, which is not compatible with the Biblical principles that I profess”. Michaela said that her husband Luis Antonio had also attended JW meetings in Lagos, along with Teofila and Marina Castel.

Michaela also pointed out that during Murat’s translation work at the Ocean Club, he met a couple called Teofilo and Marina Castela. Teofilo is the Administrative Services Manager at the Ocean Club. Both Murat and Michaela know the couple as they belong to the same JW group in Lagos. In her statement Michaela says she knows of other JWs working at the Ocean Club.

But Teofilo Castela, in November 2007, challenged parts of Michaela’s statement about attending the meeting. His account was reported in the Evening Standard. The report said that Castela had stated that Michaela Walczuk had been ‘thrown out of the congregation’, though he didn’t say why. He added that the police hadn’t interviewed him. Significantly, he added: “She was cast aside. It was before this year [2007]. The church has certain rules and they must not be broken”.

But, strangely, neither Teofila Castela nor his wife Marina (who was in charge of the Ocean Club’s Hygiene and Comfort Department) mentioned any of this in their original statements to police in May. Marina Castela’s duties included handling the keys to the apartments, including that of Apartment 5A where the McCanns were staying.  
Joao Olim Junior, who worked for Walczuk's husband Luis Antonio, made a statement to the police. He was in charge of a company vehicle on the night Madeleine disappeared. Olim was also a JW and said he attended the ‘Bible meeting’ on the evening of 3 May. He mentions Michaela several times by name in his statement but does not confirm that she was present that evening. Whether Michaela Walczuk did attend that meeting is still therefore very much in doubt. Was she somewhere else that evening?

The da Silvas

In view of the importance of the da Silva family in the various rounds of meetings Robert Murat had between Tuesday 1 May and Thursday 3 May, there has been interest in Murat’s connections with that family. Several other individuals with the surname ‘da Silva’ were contacted by the Portuguese Police in their enquiries.

Marina Castela (see above) gave a detailed witness statement in which she explained  that the person responsible for cleaning Apartment 5A was an employee called Maria Julia Serafim da Silva. There has been speculation that she might be related to the da Silva father and sons whom Murat was so anxious to meet (as we have seen above) as soon as he returned to Praia da Luz in the early hours of Tuesday 1 May.  

Another witness with the surname da Silva - Maria Manuela Martins da Silva - said was visiting the sister of her boyfriend in another Ocean Club apartment (Block 6, Apartment 5) during the afternoon and evening of 3 May. From the ground floor kitchen window of that apartment, there was a direct view across to the back windows of the apartment occupied by Madeleine McCann [Source: Police Files 02 - Processos Volume II, Pages 469 to 470a].

Unusually, some five days later, Maria was able to recall the exact time she left that apartment - 9.58pm. She says she remembers the exact time because she asked her friend the time, and she responded after checking this on the telephone in the lounge. Maria da Silva left with her boyfriend in a green Opel Frontera, parked in the private parking area of Block 6. As they drove away, she recalled seeing a small car, perhaps grey in colour, parked close to the window of the McCann apartment. By coincidence the route taken by GNR officer, Pedro Miguel Esteves Fernandes and the Search & Rescue dogs in the early hours of 4 May, lost track of Madeleine's scent in the private parking area of Block 6.

The following da Silvas are noted in the Portuguese Police files:

·         Maria Julia Serafim da Silva - responsible for cleaning Apartment 5A - and supervised by Marina Castela

·         JJorge Manuel da Silva - Businessman and shop owner that Murat and Walczuk meet with at golf club for several hours on the afternoon of May 3rd and elsewhere at other times

·         Maria Manuela Martins da Silva - staying with the sister of boyfriend in Apartment Block 6 of the Ocean Club

·         Celeste Da Conceicao Antao da Silva - A cleaner at the Ocean Club, Celeste is the first to report that there had been a spate of burglaries in the resort

·         Joquim Silva - A member of the 100-strong Jehovah's Witness congregation, who did not confirm Michaela Walczuk's claim of attendance a JW meeting on the night of 3 May. He is featured in a report by the Evening Standard.

The key found in the Murats’ home 

 A  key, which some feel could be important in the case, was found in ‘Casa Liliana’, the Murats’ home. It was the key to Luis Antonio's store room. Antonio was Michaela’s husband. The simple question is, what would it be doing at the Murats’ house. True, Michalea was at that time still married to Antonio, and both she and Murat seemed to be regular visitors at Antonio’s house. Did Murat have a set of Antonio’s keys. Was Murat using Antonio’s store room keys (and perhaps others?) during the days prior to Madeleine being reported missing?

The encryption systems on Robert Murat’s computer, and his explanation for having them there

The Portuguese Police found encryption systems on Robert Murat’s computer, just as predicted by the second witness we learnt about above.

Here we print an edited summary of Robert Murat’s response to the police’s questions about his computer. The interview with him took place on 14 May 2007, just 11 days after Madeleine was reported missing.
Robert Murat, in answer to a question, said that no-one, without his authorisation, had ever accessed his computer systems. Apparently he had three such systems. One was called ACER, which has the Vista operating system installed. Another was a system developed by ASUS, and then he had a third system, his own ‘LG’ system. These last two systems had the XP operating system installed.
He told the police that it was by mere chance, and as a result of his mother’s choice, that the computer systems were interconnected and shared the access to the internet through an ADSL Modem-Router.
The contract for internet access, with SAPO - that is, Portugal Telecom - had been signed by his mother.

He told police that he did not consider himself an expert in computers and I.T. communications, but admitted to having used computers for ten years. He added that his current ADSL Modem-Router equipment was, so far as he recalled, an SMC brand. This was significant as it makes it possible to operate a network of computers via a ‘network-without-wires’, or ‘WiFi’ - wireless networking.
He was asked by the Portuguese police why the various computer systems that he had in his house were unsynchronised - that is, gave completely different times as to when, for example, he sent out e-mails. Murat told police that, as far as he knew, his computer systems had clocks with the date and time that were set to the official time. He could not explain why they were, in fact, unsynchronised.
He suggested that it might be due to the installation of the computers having been done by an outside company, ‘125 Computers’, whose headquarters were in Mexilhoeira-Grande. This company had configured all his operating systems.
Murat told the police that, so far as he knew, only ‘normal computer programs’ were on his computers. He said that the operating system and tools would be those typical of Microsoft family, such as word processing, spreadsheet, an internet browser called ‘Internet Explorer’, and anti-virus programs.

He went on to explain that his commercial activity was in the area of real estate. He advertised homes for sale on the internet. His computer programs, he said, were only what he needed for his commercial activity.


Asked if he had any unusual systems installed on computer, he referred only to a common computer program called ‘CCleaner’. This, he said, was just to improve the performance of his systems, and could not be used for example to erase traces of child pornography that might be on his computer. The CCleaner program was installed, he said, at his son’s suggestion. Murat admitted he did not know the full potential of the ‘CCleaner’ program. [NOTE: The CCleaner program does not wipe data from a hard disk].

The police put to him that a computer expert had told him that the ‘CCleaner’ program was designed to, inter alia, delete all the following: the history of navigation on the internet, temporary files, the exchange of files, recently used documents, the register of applications, the various registry files or ‘logs’, and the ‘garbage can’ or ‘recycle bin’. Murat said he’d used the program for about three years but that he didn’t know any details about how it operated; just that it enabled his computer to run more efficiently.

He was asked explicitly if he used encryption systems on his computer. He said categorically that he did not. He was asked specifically if he used strong encryption systems in his internet browser. He again denied it and emphasised that he does not use encrypted communications on the internet or in his computer system.
He added that he did not use, nor has, encrypted data in his systems, nor did he use enciphering to mask, hide or prevent access to data contained in his systems. Asked if he used encryption or enciphering in e-mail communications, he simply told the Portuguese police that he did not know what encryption was or how to use it.
The Portuguese Police now had Murat in a corner, as they had indeed found encryption and enciphering systems on his computer. The police asked him how he could explain the presence of several encrypted or enciphered files on in his systems, seeing that he is an experienced computer user for over ten years - and given that he had earlier in the interview declared that no-one else had had access to his computer network without authorisation.

Murat replied:  "I would not know how to explain that”.

Finally, the police asked Murat to explain the contradiction of his maintaining that his network was ‘unprotected’ or ‘open’, whilst at the same time his experience must have told him that he needed to take action to keep his computer network secure. The police say that Murat replied: “I haven’t thought about that”.


Murat said he never used computers in cyber cafés in Praia da Luz or elsewhere. Murat was asked if he had ever talked to anyone besides his lawyer on how he could prove his innocence, either personally, or by telephone, or in cafés, or elsewhere. It was put to him that there might have been a conversation about police techniques for establishing the guilt or innocence of a suspect.
At this point, Murat asked for a break... 

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Genbug on 21.11.13 22:58

Tony Bennett wrote:
Hicks wrote:
 Murat was seen by EIGHT independent witnesses around the OC, I think he was doing some organising that night.
It might have been eight, there might have been a tabloid story to this effect in the autumn of 2007. 

At least four of them, if not all, were not independent.

Three were the 'Tapas 3' (FP, RO'B, RO), who all said they'd seen Murat 'around the OC' that night. They told thje police on 15 May, the day after Murat was pulled in for questioning in a blaze of publicity. All these three later changed their story and said it wasn't him and that they might have mistaken him for David Payne or Angus Symington. Someone at the time helpfully supplied the tabloids with photos of those two looking very like Murat (I wonder who?).

A fourth was 'an unnamed barrister' who seems to pop up everywhere in this story like an unwanted pop-up advert on the internet.

I suspect if you look very closely at the other four 'sightings' of Murat (if there were indeed eight altogether), there might be some doubts about the 'independence' of those other four as well. 

Smoke...

...and...

...mirrors...
"Three were the 'Tapas 3' (FP, RO'B, RO), who all said they'd seen Murat 'around the OC' that night. They told thje police on 15 May, the day after Murat was pulled in for questioning in a blaze of publicity. All these three later changed their story and said it wasn't him and that they might have mistaken him for David Payne or Angus Symington."

Did Fiona Payne really say it wasn't Murat after all and it may have been her own husband...?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 21.11.13 23:06

Genbug wrote:
Did Fiona Payne really say it wasn't Murat after all and it may have been her own husband...?
No. It was much more subtle than that. There were hardly any direct statements by the Tapas 3, but instead, statements were put out by 'a family friend' or 'a source close to the McCanns' etc. etc. - and the drift away from their statements made on 15 May was a gradual process which began in December 2007 and continued, drip by drip, over the next 4 months or so.

Again, I dealt with this at length in my Robert Murat article, pp. 48 to 58, under this heading:

The McCann Team edge away from identifying Murat as the alleged abductor

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Genbug on 21.11.13 23:43

Tony Bennett wrote:
Genbug wrote:
Did Fiona Payne really say it wasn't Murat after all and it may have been her own husband...?
No. It was much more subtle than that. There were hardly any direct statements by the Tapas 3, but instead, statements were put out by 'a family friend' or 'a source close to the McCanns' etc. etc. - and the drift away from their statements made on 15 May was a gradual process which began in December 2007 and continued, drip by drip, over the next 4 months or so.

Again, I dealt with this at length in my Robert Murat article, pp. 48 to 58, under this heading:

The McCann Team edge away from identifying Murat as the alleged abductor
Thank you. Where can I find this article please?

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by ultimaThule on 22.11.13 5:35

From Joana's blog - an extract from the CMTV programme aired in Portugal:


Eduardo Dâmaso – We return to another aspect which, from my point of view, proves that all the indications that exist, which point towards an enigma that is installed within that group, is much stronger than what exists about the possibility of an abduction.

Voiceover – Another question that remains unanswered is the place where Gerry was at 10 p.m. Two Tapas Bar employees said that Gerry was not at the restaurant. According to Gonçalo Amaral, there are only three moments that the authorities are able to locate in time. This is not one of them.

Gonçalo Amaral – As far as accurate times are concerned, there are only three: The time at which they pick up Maddie from the crèche, which is at 5.30 p.m., the time of the payment at the restaurant by the Irish family, which is at 9.22 or 9.27 p.m., and the time of the phone call to GNR, which is at 10.47 p.m. From there on, nothing is certain.

So there we have it; on the evening of 3 May 2007 the McCanns and their pals could have been anywhere at any time and, with the exception of Diane Webster, they weren't in the Tapas Bar from c9.30-9.40pm onwards ergo GM was not in two places at once because, although he may believe otherwise, he does not possess superhuman powers nor is he a master of illusion.
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by canada12 on 22.11.13 8:10

I've always thought it very telling that their first phonecall to the GNR was at 10.47 p.m. This is at least 45 minutes after we're led to believe Kate first found Maddie missing. 

If my child had disappeared, I wouldn't wait at least 45 minutes to call the police, even in a foreign country. If my child had disappeared, my first immediate phonecalls would be to the police (even in a foreign country, and enlisting the help of a translator - there would be no shortage on hand). On top of that, I'd be calling the embassy or consulate of my country and taking advice from them. Not calling the media of my country and spreading the word based on dodgy details. Just think - if it was a true abduction, how would you know it wasn't a kidnapping for money? How would you know that one of the stipulations might be, no publicity or we kill her?

It just defies all logic.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.11.13 9:06

Genbug wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Genbug wrote:
Did Fiona Payne really say it wasn't Murat after all and it may have been her own husband...?
No. It was much more subtle than that. There were hardly any direct statements by the Tapas 3, but instead, statements were put out by 'a family friend' or 'a source close to the McCanns' etc. etc. - and the drift away from their statements made on 15 May was a gradual process which began in December 2007 and continued, drip by drip, over the next 4 months or so.

Again, I dealt with this at length in my Robert Murat article, pp. 48 to 58, under this heading:

The McCann Team edge away from identifying Murat as the alleged abductor
Thank you. Where can I find this article please?
The first part of my lengthy article on Robert Murat can still be found on The Madeleine Foundation website at this link:

http://madeleinefoundation.org.uk/Muratpt1.html

What did you really want to see? - was it just the part of the article that deals with the alleged sighting of Robert Murat around the Ocean Club? - and the subsequent change of mind by the Tapas 3 and the others? If so, when I have a moment I could place that part of the article over in the Information section of the fourm.

If you or anyone wants to see other parts of the Murat article, I think most of these are no longer viewable on the internet. I would have to 'weed' the article of those sentences deemed libellous, which would have to come out before I republished them, otherwise I would risk immediate despatch to Pentonville Prison. I can do that, but it would take a while

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.11.13 9:09

canada12 wrote:I've always thought it very telling that their first phone call to the GNR was at 10.47 pm. This is at least 45 minutes after we're led to believe Kate first found Maddie missing. 

If my child had disappeared, I wouldn't wait at least 45 minutes to call the police, even in a foreign country. If my child had disappeared, my first immediate phone calls would be to the police...
IIRC there was mention of one of the Tapas group going to the Ocean Club reception at about 10.30pm to report Madeleine missing and to ask for outside help.

I am not sure now whether the 10.47pm call was made by the McCanns or by the Mark Warner/Ocean Club management

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Pennypennypenny on 22.11.13 9:16

I agree with canada12. Delay in calling the police sends alarm bells ringing for me. In fact the whole set up that night sets bells off. And getting the abduction theory out there from the get go tells me something is very wrong.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 22.11.13 9:20

Pennypennypenny wrote:I agree with canada12. Delay in calling the police sends alarm bells ringing for me. In fact the whole set up that night sets bells off. And getting the abduction theory out there from the get go tells me something is very wrong.
I also think, no matter what credence you give to the Smith sighting, the time it would take to get from 5A to there and back is generally wildly overestimated.
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by canada12 on 22.11.13 9:26

Pennypennypenny wrote:I agree with canada12. Delay in calling the police sends alarm bells ringing for me. In fact the whole set up that night sets bells off. And getting the abduction theory out there from the get go tells me something is very wrong.
Well totally.
When confronted with a missing 3 year old from a bedroom, you only have 2 scenarios:
1. She woke up and wandered outside and disappeared
2. Someone came in and took her

You cannot be certain that #2 happened without scrupulously eliminating #1 as a possibility.
And you cannot scrupulously eliminate #1 as a possibility until you've exhausted every route to determine whether or not that was the case.

If you eliminate #1 immediately, the only way you could possibly be certain that it didn't happen is if you know you locked all the doors securely; or if the doors were left unlocked, you'd have to be fairly certain your 3 year old wasn't clever enough to find her way outside. Since we've got conflicting information about whether the doors were locked or unlocked, I think we can safely assume #1 couldn't possibly be eliminated so quickly.

Therefore the immediate assumption that someone came in and took her is completely irrational and illogical.

But we knew that all along anyway.

ETA - hence the immediate (and disproven) claim that the shutters had been interfered with and the bedroom window opened - to justify the immediate assumption of abduction. But since first uttered by Kate, it has to be stuck to, otherwise the whole abduction claim err.... goes out the window.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by worriedmum on 22.11.13 9:58

You make some good points , Canada and Pennypenny.
The strange thing IMO is that anyone who ''had ''been watching us'' and planning an abduction would waste time interfering with a window and shutters in full view of a car park and with apartments opposite, when they could have snuck down a dark alley,screened by bushes and entered unobserved through an unlocked patio door. They could have left through the front door and got into a car in the car park.  So why bother with the window/shutters and how did they fail to leave any forensic evidence?

Is there a list of what Kate was allegedly heard to shout?  

Did she ever say 'I can't find Madeleine'?
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by PeterMac on 22.11.13 10:16

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Pennypennypenny wrote:I agree with canada12. Delay in calling the police sends alarm bells ringing for me. In fact the whole set up that night sets bells off. And getting the abduction theory out there from the get go tells me something is very wrong.
I also think, no matter what credence you give to the Smith sighting, the time it would take to get from 5A to there and back is generally wildly overestimated.
This is from maps.google
" />
400 m is about right for 5 minutes.
A British infantry quick march is 120 paces a minute, each of 2'6" so exactly 100 yards in one minute.   (30 bars of music.)

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 22.11.13 10:27

PeterMac wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
Pennypennypenny wrote:I agree with canada12. Delay in calling the police sends alarm bells ringing for me. In fact the whole set up that night sets bells off. And getting the abduction theory out there from the get go tells me something is very wrong.
I also think, no matter what credence you give to the Smith sighting, the time it would take to get from 5A to there and back is generally wildly overestimated.
This is from maps.google
" />
400 m is about right for 5 minutes.
A British infantry quick march is 120 paces a minute, each of 2'6" so exactly 100 yards in one minute.   (30 bars of music.)
Thanks PeterMac. Assume a fit guy (sporty type, perhaps?) and the fact that I, at least, move faster when carrying something heavy, like shopping bags (burden gets heavier with time rather than distance) and the total unaccounted for time need be not much more than 5 mins.

The Smith sighting is always painted as being "miles" away from the apartment but as the crow flies it's only about thrice again the distance tapas => apartment, as your map so clearly shows. Also wasn't Smithman running, depending who you ask?
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by worriedmum on 22.11.13 10:31

If you were running, you would slow down if there were witnesses so as not to draw attention to yourself. Plus you can hurry without actually running. Just because some-one didn't see you run, it doesn't mean that you didn't....
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Tony Bennett on 22.11.13 10:36

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
The Smith sighting is always painted as being "miles" away from the apartment but as the crow flies it's only about thrice again the distance tapas => apartment, as your map so clearly shows. Also wasn't Smithman running, depending who you ask?
If there ever was a 'Smithman'.

Clay Regazzoni, when you say 'depending who you ask', we only have three witness statements: Martin, Peter and Aoife Smith.

Martin and Aoife Smith use the term 'walking', while Peter Smith ventures:

Quote

walking normally although with somewhat quick steps as he was walking downwards

Unquote


Nothing from anyone at all about 'running'

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 22.11.13 10:52

Tony Bennett wrote:
Clay Regazzoni wrote:
The Smith sighting is always painted as being "miles" away from the apartment but as the crow flies it's only about thrice again the distance tapas => apartment, as your map so clearly shows. Also wasn't Smithman running, depending who you ask?
If there ever was a 'Smithman'.

Clay Regazzoni, when you say 'depending who you ask', we only have three witness statements: Martin, Peter and Aoife Smith.

Martin and Aoife Smith use the term 'walking', while Peter Smith ventures:

Quote

walking normally although with somewhat quick steps as he was walking downwards

Unquote


Nothing from anyone at all about 'running'
Well quite.

My reference to "depending who you ask" was an ironic reference to something I had seen elsewhere (in this thread I thought) where exactly that claim was being made.

As I have said before my thoughts on Smithman have reversed (partly but not just down to Tony), but I still don't believe it would be a complete fabrication - it's takes a special kind of individual to do that to a serious Police investigation. Like a lot of things in that case it might have started off with a kernel of truth and then had maximum distortion applied. Why is anybody's guess.

I will just add that as a very fit almost 40 year old myself, if I had to carry my daughter 400m, if our lives depended on it, I reckon I could do it and be back in about 2m30. Just info for the timeliners out there.
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Pennypennypenny on 22.11.13 13:21

Worriedmum I don't think she ever did utter those words. Reading her supposed words and actions when she found her daughter was no longer in the apartment set more alarm bells off for me. It was like reading about a very bad actress in a very bad B movie.

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Genbug on 22.11.13 17:00

Tony Bennett wrote:
Genbug wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Genbug wrote:
Did Fiona Payne really say it wasn't Murat after all and it may have been her own husband...?
No. It was much more subtle than that. There were hardly any direct statements by the Tapas 3, but instead, statements were put out by 'a family friend' or 'a source close to the McCanns' etc. etc. - and the drift away from their statements made on 15 May was a gradual process which began in December 2007 and continued, drip by drip, over the next 4 months or so.

Again, I dealt with this at length in my Robert Murat article, pp. 48 to 58, under this heading:

The McCann Team edge away from identifying Murat as the alleged abductor
Thank you. Where can I find this article please?
The first part of my lengthy article on Robert Murat can still be found on The Madeleine Foundation website at this link:

http://madeleinefoundation.org.uk/Muratpt1.html

What did you really want to see? - was it just the part of the article that deals with the alleged sighting of Robert Murat around the Ocean Club? - and the subsequent change of mind by the Tapas 3 and the others? If so, when I have a moment I could place that part of the article over in the Information section of the fourm.

If you or anyone wants to see other parts of the Murat article, I think most of these are no longer viewable on the internet. I would have to 'weed' the article of those sentences deemed libellous, which would have to come out before I republished them, otherwise I would risk immediate despatch to Pentonville Prison. I can do that, but it would take a while
It's okay, I've found it thanks. It's an article from The Mail so I am guessing not too much emphasis can be put on it, but it seems they are as sceptical as I am that Fiona Payne could have failed to identify her own husband...!


Madeleine witnesses ‘may have mistaken this friend of the McCanns for Murat’ on night she disappearedDaily Mail
“Doubt was cast on the evidence of several key witnesses in the Madeleine McCann disappearance last night. Those who said they saw suspect Robert Murat outside the family's holiday apartment on the night she vanished may have named the wrong man, it was revealed.
“Detectives believe the witnesses who said they saw the British expat could have confused him with a friend of Kate and Gerry McCann, David Payne, who was out searching for the missing three-year-old…
“A series of witnesses have given statements claiming to have seen him around the Ocean Club apartment complex in the hours after Mrs McCann, 39, raised the alarm. They include three friends of the McCanns, Russell O'Brien, Fiona Payne and Rachael Oldfield, who later confronted Mr Murat at a police station after he was made a suspect and said he offered to help them search that night. Mark Warner nanny Charlotte Pennington said she saw him hanging around outside the Ocean Club's reception at about 10pm. British holidaymaker Jayne Jensen, an unnamed British barrister and two unidentified British tourists all claim to have seen him around the complex that night.
“But none of them knew the 34-year-old property consultant before that night. Police are examining the theory that they could have confused him with Dr David Payne. The medical researcher, who is 41, was searching around the complex that night and - in a street lit by orange streetlights - could easily have been mistaken for Mr Murat. Mr Murat's lawyer Francisco Pagarete told the Daily Mail: ‘Robert has always said the witnesses were mistaken. He was not there that night’.
“A source close to the inquiry said: ‘The similarity between the two has rendered many witness accounts virtually worthless’. But he added: ‘What is baffling is that Mr Payne's wife and two of his friends are among those who claim to have seen Mr Murat outside the McCanns' apartment that night. You'd think a wife would recognise her own husband’.”

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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by ultimaThule on 22.11.13 17:47

Pennypennypenny wrote:Worriedmum I don't think she ever did utter those words. Reading her supposed words and actions when she found her daughter was no longer in the apartment set more alarm bells off for me. It was like reading about a very bad actress in a very bad B movie.
My thoughts too, Penny. 

From the first cringemaking televised 'appeal' through to their filmed and live appearances on Crimewatch last month, it's apparent that neither of the McCanns are capable of Oscar winning performances but, having said that, should they be required to testify on oath in their own defence we may see acting of the type which produces genuine tears of self-pity.
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Romario on 22.11.13 17:51

ultimaThule wrote:
Pennypennypenny wrote:Worriedmum I don't think she ever did utter those words. Reading her supposed words and actions when she found her daughter was no longer in the apartment set more alarm bells off for me. It was like reading about a very bad actress in a very bad B movie.
My thoughts too, Penny. 

From the first cringemaking televised 'appeal' through to their filmed and live appearances on Crimewatch last month, it's apparent that neither of the McCanns are capable of Oscar winning performances but, having said that, should they be required to testify on oath in their own defence we may see acting of the type which produces genuine tears of self-pity.
UltimaThule, with respect I would have to disagree. The Mccann's acting has always been so utterly dreadful that it's entirely conceivable they are going to win an Oscar.
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by ultimaThule on 22.11.13 19:00

If you're referring to Nicole Kidman's truly awful posing and posturing in The Hours, I'm willing to accept this as the exception that proves the rule, Romario.  

Happily, the McCanns will have no need for prosthetic noses when they give their long awaited final public performance big grin
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by Guest on 22.11.13 19:23

Sorry to get mean [as women do, occasionally] but shouldn't GM profit from a nose-job? It's growing àla Pincochio ...
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Re: Being in two places at once

Post by ultimaThule on 22.11.13 19:34

I'd benefit if GM had a face transplant as I can't abide looking at his supercillious, sneering, smug, pugnacious features. 

Should he become a guest of HM, I've no doubt they'll be re-arranged but until then I wish he'd wear a burkha - preferably one big enough to accomodate his spouse so she can grope his leg in private when they next park their arses on celebrity sofas.
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