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MURAT revisited

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Doug D on 26.03.18 9:17

Thanks for that skyrocket.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Caroline Baker on the OC booking list was indeed Cat's mother.

Similarly the ...5099 phone number is clearly that of Rhi(annon) Fretter, Lynne's middle name.

The ...7518 number which was activated as a pre-paid mobile in 2005 was originally a 'Telephone number associated with a vitamin product for which no holder identification data have been provided', so quite where Cat acquired it from is a mystery, but from the usage, it still looks to have been her who had it in 2007.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Doug D on 26.03.18 9:35

I would also suggest that this ..13687518 number is that showing obscured as being Cat's number on the following page of her statement and also (erroneously?) slightly lower down against Murat, which could be where the PJ picked up their 'Murat associated' phone number from.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Verdi on 26.03.18 14:48

@NickE wrote:The incoming phone call from the UK came at 22:47 on Sunday the 29th and this UK phone number belonged, according to the source, to Cat Baker's mother, Carol*ne Baker and there was several phone calls during that week

You still haven't amswered my question - where does this information come from?  Above, you specifically say "according to the source" - what/who is this source?  Please don't quote a press article.

That aside, you highlighted this page from the PJ files, with reference to an alleged call on Sunday 29th April 2007..

04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_1051

This is page 1051..



ETA: The PJ were interested in many call details registered on the phones on Robert and Jenny Murat, I venture to suggest every one of the registered calls. Don't you think the PJ would have picked-up anything untoward?

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by NickE on 26.03.18 15:17

@Verdi wrote:
@NickE wrote:The incoming phone call from the UK came at 22:47 on Sunday the 29th and this UK phone number belonged, according to the source, to Cat Baker's mother, Carol*ne Baker and there was several phone calls during that week

You still haven't amswered my question - where does this information come from?  Above, you specifically say "according to the source" - what/who is this source?  Please don't quote a press article.

That aside, you highlighted this page from the PJ files, with reference to an alleged call on Sunday 29th April 2007..

04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_1051

This is page 1051..



ETA:  The PJ were interested in many call details registered on the phones on Robert and Jenny Murat, I venture to suggest every one of the registered calls.  Don't you think the PJ would have picked-up anything untoward?

It's simple, only two steps.
PJ files:


Truecaller:


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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by polyenne on 26.03.18 15:21

Verdi, I think it's page 1052 from memory

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Verdi on 26.03.18 15:55

Thank you ^^^!

@NickE wrote:It's simple, only two steps.

PJ files:

Truecaller:

Yes I can see what you posted but you still haven't answered my question.

Somebody doing something they didn't oughta?

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Phoebe on 26.03.18 20:58

@ NickE. Can you clarify if the number 00731443605 which  certainly appears to be registered to Caroline Baker called a mobile connected to the Murats or their landline. (question mark broken, sorry!) I'm a bit techno-challenged (understatement) so could could you also answer the following please.
1) is there any way of knowing whether the mobile number above made that call from within Portugal or did it originate in England. If Portugal, it seems likely that it was Cat using a mobile registered to her mother but, what the hell was she doing ringing Murats on the 29th. If she rang a Murat mobile then she could, theoretically, have spoken to Robert who was in the U.K. but if she rang the landline she could only have spoken to someone like Jenny. If the call originated from England then it would appear to have been from Caroline Baker to the Murats. Again, what the hell was she doing contacting them. I think this warrants further investigation as it could be very important. If  this is true, it shows contact between either Madeleine's nanny or the nanny's mother with the prime suspect in the child's disappearance, both before and after the "abduction". That IMO would take some explaining!! Great find NickE!!

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by skyrocket on 27.03.18 14:02

@NickE - I think @DougD is correct in saying that the 518 number is Cat Baker's and that this number has been incorrectly recorded against Murat in Cat's 6 May statement, shown above. As @DougD has suggested, this probably triggered the request for this number to be investigated.

If you open the link below, which is a list of the nannys and their redacted phone numbers, it is clear that Cat has a Portuguese mobile number which ends in 18; that Leanne Wagstaff has a UK mobile number which ends in 02 (which would seem to be the 07929 237502 number also seen in the phone records as having contact with the 518 number); and that, Rhiannon Fretter (who boarded with Cat in Luz) has a Portuguese mobile ending in 26.

http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_87.jpg

It seems likely that Rhiannon had 2 mobiles (1 UK/1 Portuguese), which would not be uncommon.

Caroline Baker's 605 UK mobile number contacts Cat (daughter) prior to and after the disappearance.

Cat's number calls the 605 (mother) number only after the disappearance and often the calls only last 1/2 seconds - a familiar occurence for anyone with kids with pay as you go mobiles i.e. phone me back mum so I don't get charged.

I think I am correct in saying that calls from a UK mobile made abroad are still routed back through the UK?

I have had a quick look to see if there are any obvious links between Cat's/Cats mum's/Leanne's/Rhiannon's (UK mob number) and any of Murat related numbers, as listed in the PJ's requests to the phone companys, but I can't see any - if any can be found, they obviously would need close scrutiny.
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by NickE on 27.03.18 21:52

@Phoebe wrote:@ NickE. Can you clarify if the number 00731443605 which  certainly appears to be registered to Caroline Baker called a mobile connected to the Murats or their landline. (question mark broken, sorry!) I'm a bit techno-challenged (understatement) so could could you also answer the following please.
1) is there any way of knowing whether the mobile number above made that call from within Portugal or did it originate in England. If Portugal, it seems likely that it was Cat using a mobile registered to her mother but, what the hell was she doing ringing Murats on the 29th. If she rang a Murat mobile then she could, theoretically, have spoken to Robert who was in the U.K. but if she rang the landline she could only have spoken to someone like Jenny. If the call originated from England then it would appear to have been from Caroline Baker to the Murats. Again, what the hell was she doing contacting them. I think this warrants further investigation as it could be very important. If  this is true, it shows contact between either Madeleine's nanny or the nanny's mother with the prime suspect in the child's disappearance, both before and after the "abduction". That IMO would take some explaining!! Great find NickE!!
As far as I know it's not possible with these phone records to see if the calls was made from the UK or in Portugal because the land codes are there in both ways.
Here is an example on calls made in Portugal and as you can see there is both 0044 and 00351.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by NickE on 27.03.18 21:59

@skyrocket wrote:[size=32]@NickE - I think @DougD is correct in saying that the 518 number is Cat Baker's and that this number has been incorrectly recorded against Murat in Cat's 6 May statement, shown above. As @DougD has suggested, this probably triggered the request for this number to be investigated.[/size]

[size=32]If you open the link below, which is a list of the nannys and their redacted phone numbers, it is clear that Cat has a Portuguese mobile number which ends in 18; that Leanne Wagstaff has a UK mobile number which ends in 02 (which would seem to be the 07929 237502 number also seen in the phone records as having contact with the 518 number); and that, Rhiannon Fretter (who boarded with Cat in Luz) has a Portuguese mobile ending in 26.[/size]

[size=32]http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P1/01_VOLUME_Ia_Page_87.jpg[/size]

[size=32]It seems likely that Rhiannon had 2 mobiles (1 UK/1 Portuguese), which would not be uncommon.[/size]

[size=32]Caroline Baker's 605 UK mobile number contacts Cat (daughter) prior to and after the disappearance.[/size]

[size=32]Cat's number calls the 605 (mother) number only after the disappearance and often the calls only last 1/2 seconds - a familiar occurence for anyone with kids with pay as you go mobiles i.e. phone me back mum so I don't get charged.[/size]

[size=32]I think I am correct in saying that calls from a UK mobile made abroad are still routed back through the UK?[/size]

I have had a quick look to see if there are any obvious links between Cat's/Cats mum's/Leanne's/Rhiannon's (UK mob number) and any of Murat related numbers, as listed in the PJ's requests to the phone companys, but I can't see any - if any can be found, they obviously would need close scrutiny.
Yes it could have been Cat's phone but there's a couple of questions.
Why was it listed under Murat in files?
Mistake?
This pre paid phone was activated back in 2005.
Did the OC had this phone and let Cat use it?
But if it was OC's phone, why activate it at the end of the season and deactivate it in the beginning of high season and again activate it in the very low season?
:baffled:

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Doug D on 28.03.18 8:33

Cat Baker went to Portugal 21st March 2007.
 
‘The informant states that since she has been in Portugal, in addition to the British people and her colleagues, she has got to know people outside the tourist company, some of Portuguese nationality but mostly British people whom she associates with when going out at night to enjoy herself.’
 
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CATRIONA-TREASA.htm
 
Pure speculation of course, but I would suggest that she had been in Luz long enough to realise she needed a Portugues sim card for her phone and had had time to make friends and buy/be given a ‘spare’ pay as you go Portuguese sim card, previously used by someone working for a vitamin company.
I don’t know if it was there in 2007, but again, probably coincidence, there is a Health food/vitamin store right opposite the Baptista Supermarket.
No doubt the PJ would have asked her where she got her sim card from to clear the matter up if she hadn’t been shipped out by Mark Warner so promptly.
 
As for the de-activation, I don’t think it is relevant as it was done by the vitamin company in June 2006, and reactivated again by them in November 2006, so probably a member of staff left and was then replaced later in the year and given the phone.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Verdi on 28.03.18 12:59

I've had mobile phones in the past that I no longer wanted, I gave them away, sim card 'n all.

It's astonishing, considering how folk virtually live by mobile phones these days, how many people put there phone down somewhere out and about and forget to pick it up when they leave the establishment. I see this frequently but I'm honest angel , a heck of a lot of people out there aren't honest.

Then of course there is mobile phone theft, another modern daily occurrence i don\'t know .

When poking around people's private business, how can one be sure that the information they collect is accurate i.e. a specific phone number belongs to a specific person? I've posed this question before but so far haven't had a direct answer. As I said recently, if there was anything suspicious highlighted during the investigation, the PJ would have have found it - their groundwork was exemplary even though the investigation was being compromised above ground by UK interference.

I think this is a road to nowhere.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by GordonGarner on 29.03.18 0:21

Enjoyed reading this thread.
I think the answer is , as posed by Mr Bennett " who and why coerced Murat to fly out at such short notice" ?
If we knew that answer I feel we may be 40% further on.
As always it's not the what, it's the how and the why ?
The sheer extent of the cover up suggests people of high status involved in no good.

If the M' s were involved , I wonder if they had a choice ?
If they didn't , maybe their actions have been a way of survival ? It maybe boils down to whether their possible involvement was passive or active imo.
Murats involvement or otherwise could be nailed down with answers to one or two key questions.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by polyenne on 29.03.18 7:01

When GM was asked if he knew Murat, the “no comment” response laid him bare.

If Murat was summoned to PdL to take up a role “within” the investigation (as a “nosey” translator) and was subsequently set up as a patsy (possibly) and he & Gerry “knew” each other, right there is collusion.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by GordonGarner on 29.03.18 7:50

It's disappointing that the initial investigation didn't nail down the true motive of Murats hasty flight arrangements . His whole 'story' is as nonsensical as the M's Thursday night imo, but the trouble with this case is that statements and tales that you could drive a bus through seem to still stand as the official record.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Verdi on 30.03.18 12:30

The Truth of the Lie - by Gonçalo Amaral: Chapter 7

SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOUR AND CONTRADICTIONS

THE MURAT CASE

On May 10th, the crisis unit's meeting goes on until 2'oclock in the morning.

I receive a phone call from Sofia, who insists on my going home: our Shitzu dog is dead. She found it that morning, lifeless on the ground, with a head injury. She did everything to make sure the girls did not see it, but she didn't have the courage to remove him. When I arrive, everyone is already in bed. I place the Shitzu in a plastic bag, not sure about where I am going to be able to bury him. The ground is hard here. it's not easy to dig a hole and I hardly have the time for it. I decide to drop his remains into a bin. The animal is small, but he seems to weigh more than usual. I use my car to take her. As I am getting rid of it, I realise just how easy it is to hide a body - and how difficult it is to bury....When I get back, I discuss it with Sofia: she is afraid. She asks me to abandon the investigation and to worry about our daughters rather than other people's. For her, the dog's death is a bad omen. I reply that she is unfair, that her fears are irrational. Justice must be done for Madeleine, as for all other children and adults. It's my duty as a police officer: to seek the truth so that justice may be done.

At around 8 o'clock that morning, I drive towards Portimão. I could drive with my eyes closed; this helps me to focus on the latest developments in the investigation. All I notice is the impasse we find ourselves in. I have the impression that we are chasing a ghost. The previous night, we had reviewed Jane Tanner's witness statement in detail: the individual whom she saw parading around in the open street with a child he had just abducted seems less and less credible to us.

- And where would he go then? If, as we have assumed, he didn't have a vehicle, he must have hidden in an apartment in the area.

- On the route he took, there are several apartment blocks and two houses. They were all searched on May 5th, but nothing was found.

A thorough search?

- More than 500 apartments were visited that day; in those conditions, only a general examination can be conducted, except where something seems suspicious. The houses in the area have gardens, swimming pools, numerous hiding places that are not easily spotted during a first visit.

Instead of taking the exit road for Portimão, I continue my journey on the motorway. I need to reconstruct the individual's path. If he had planned his crime, he probably wouldn't have taken this direction. And if, on the other hand, he hadn't planned it? I need to work it out for myself. In Vilada Luz, I park my car below the apartment blocks. Journalists are on the lookout around the apartment; fortunately, they don't see me. I walk the same route that the stranger must have taken. I arrive in front of a house with a neglected garden. Inside, there are two parked cars, whose registration numbers I note down. I communicate the numbers to the police in Portimão and wait there for the result of the check. After a few minutes, a green vehicle, driven by an individual wearing glasses, stops in front of the entrance to the house. The driver goes in quickly. His face is familiar to me but I don't know who he is. I notice a child's seat inside the car. The man comes back out a little later, supporting an elderly lady whom he accompanies towards the area of the swimming pools and the Tapas restaurant. They cross a park where a few buildings have been erected. Madeleine's parents took this route to take their children to the play centre, near the main reception area of the hotel complex. Since the start of the investigation , a team has been permanently on the premises and an apartment has been placed at their disposal. I am about to make enquiries of the police officer on duty when the individual comes back from his walk and greets him as he passes.

- You know that man?

- Yes, he presented himself to the GNR on Friday morning and offered his services as an interpreter. He is of English origin but speaks good Portuguese. He's called Robert Murat.

As the law demands, all foreign people interviewed by the police must have the benefit of an interpreter. In this investigation, the considerable number of interviews we had to conduct in record time forced us to call on the services of volunteers.

- And this guy, you checked him out? No criminal record or trouble with the law?

- No, no, it's all OK, but I didn't know he lived here. It's true that his house is on the route taken by the abductor.

- Stay here, carry on being friendly with him; I'm going to Portimão to see what we've got on him: we've got to find out more about this guy.

I immediately telephone the team to alert them. The Director of the Department of Criminal Investigation in Faro has to be involved in a meeting the same morning, where we will discuss the case of Robert Murat. We decide to request the latter's help again in order not to lose sight of him. We must act with the utmost speed, because Madeleine could be in one of the houses he has access to. The investigators continue to check the information we have about him. He is English, aged 33 and is separated from his wife. The latter lives in Great Britain with their daughter; the latter is nearly the same age as Madeleine and looks like her. The English journalist to whom he gave this information during an interview was immediately distrusting of him and the reasons that motivated him to help the police. Murat has lived with his mother in Vila da Luz for several years, but he goes to England regularly. Back from his last stay in Exeter on May 1st, he has to return there on the 9th. He is ready to postpone his departure, desirous above all, he states, of helping the police to find Madeleine.

His behaviour starts to seriously intrigue us. He often makes reference to similar cases that happened in the United Kingdom and which he seems to know in detail. He displays suspicious curiosity and seeks to know more. He offers to help us identify possible suspects. He knows the workings of the Ocean Club and the habits of the holiday-makers very well. He even, allegedly, tried secretly to access the investigation files. It is also known that he visits web sites of a pornographic nature.
His mother has set up a desk near the Tapas restaurant in order to gather and give out information about Madeleine. We don't know if this woman's actions are philanthropic in nature, or if she is hoping to keep well-informed of all the information circulating about the case. Members of the British agency CEOP (Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre), take a close interest in Murat and work to develop his psychological profile.

If it's him that's holding Madeleine, we must monitor all his contacts and places he has access to. His house is therefore being closely watched. Technicians arrive from Great Britain with sophisticated equipment, capable of detecting the presence of people inside a building. Unfortunately, the characteristics of the building make this computer display impossible. So, stick to the investigations and conventional tailing. This is how we discover his relationship with a married woman of German origin, Michaela Walczuch. She is 32 and works as an estate agent. She is the wife of Luis Antonio, a Portuguese man aged 33, a technician responsible for the maintenance of swimming pools. The couple have an 8 year-old daughter and live in Faro. The relationship is strange. Michaela is still living with her spouse, and Robert visits them as if it's no big deal. All of them seem happy with this situation. And the little girl? What does she think about it?

On May 12th, the suspect rents a car, in which he drives kilometres over rough tracks for basic essentials. He explains later: that day, his mother had needed his car for her information desk. We are assuming that he noticed he was being followed.

We then decide to search his residence and the vehicles he uses. During the night of May 13th, the Prosecutor of the Republic and the judge go to the court in Portimão, where, in view of the growing suspicion and the urgency of the situation, a search warrant is issued to them.
----------

I make no apologies for continuously going back to the beginning of this protracted saga - that is after all where it all began, even though deemed a cardinal sin in some quarters.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Doug D on 30.03.18 15:00

May 10th
 
‘I receive a phone call from Sofia, who insists on my going home: our Shitzu dog is dead. She found it that morning, lifeless on the ground, with a head injury……….
 
When I get back, I discuss it with Sofia: she is afraid. She asks me to abandon the investigation and to worry about our daughters rather than other people's.’
 
Even at that early stage something was afoot enough to spook Sofia.
 
Got to wonder if threats had already been made.

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