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MURAT revisited

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MURAT revisited

Post by sallypelt on 08.11.13 14:50

Any researcher, worth his/her salt, will revisit information they have looked at in the past, and then compare it with up-to-date information. What source may not have seemed that important initially, can become very important a few months or years later, as the link I posted in regards to the Daily Mail article of 2007.

This is the link for Murat revisited:


 http://aangirfan.blogspot.co.uk/2008/11/madeleine-mccann-symington-family.html

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by MissDaisy on 08.11.13 14:56

Property and the people involved in it keeping popping up in this case don't they? IMO they probably came in very handy after 3rd May, 2007.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Hicks on 08.11.13 15:10

It cannot be ignored that 'EIGHT' independent witnesses put Murat outside/near the OC on that night at various times.

http://news.sky.com/story/562150/madeleine-mccann-suspect-murat-denies-fresh-claims.

Murat is a smoker

http://news.sky.com/story/562150/madeleine-mccann-suspect-murat-denies-fresh-claims.
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by MrsC on 08.11.13 15:13

Hicks wrote:It cannot be ignored that 'EIGHT' independent witnesses put Murat outside/near the OC on that night at various times.
There are only two things I am personally sure of regarding this mystery: that Mr & Mrs McCann know exactly what happened to their daughter Madeleine and that Murat is somehow deeply involved in this story.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Research_Reader on 08.11.13 15:22

And Robert Murat's phone-call with Sergie Malinka very late that night, which RM initially tried to deny. IMO its quite unusual to have a business phone-call that late at night with someone you are supposedly not that well acquainted with. Moreover if you did, it would stick in your memory and you wouldn't be denying it just because you had forgotten it. Very unusual.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Hicks on 08.11.13 15:26

Yes, I agree with you, Murat is involved in all of this somehow. What I find odd is that when you look at photo's of Murat, especially helping the PJ in the early days he seems happy, comfortable almost excited to be in the spotlight, I think one journo said as much. Observing him he/she said( words to the effect) he appeared sweaty with nervous excitement.

I have been trying to ascertain whether the 30 hours phone silence on the mobiles of RM and GM are true or just internet mythology. If true then it cannot be coincidence. Any ideas?

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Estelle on 08.11.13 16:18

Hicks wrote:Yes, I agree with you, Murat is involved in all of this somehow. What I find odd is that when you look at photo's of Murat, especially helping the PJ in the early days he seems happy, comfortable almost excited to be in the spotlight, I think one journo said as much. Observing him he/she said( words to the effect) he appeared sweaty with nervous excitement.

I have been trying to ascertain whether the 30 hours phone silence on the mobiles of RM and GM are true or just internet mythology. If true then it cannot be coincidence. Any ideas?
I followed Dewi Lennard's (kikoratton) (who is on twitter now) research on the mobile phone records for over three years on two forums and he compared his calls to Murat's statements as well as to others including Gerry's. His research is no longer available online.  I can say that it is true that there was 30 hours of silence on the mobiles of RM and GM. They turned their phones off and on at the same time. IMO Murat was a willing patsy.
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 16:19

Estelle wrote:
Hicks wrote:Yes, I agree with you, Murat is involved in all of this somehow. What I find odd is that when you look at photo's of Murat, especially helping the PJ in the early days he seems happy, comfortable almost excited to be in the spotlight, I think one journo said as much. Observing him he/she said( words to the effect) he appeared sweaty with nervous excitement.

I have been trying to ascertain whether the 30 hours phone silence on the mobiles of RM and GM are true or just internet mythology. If true then it cannot be coincidence. Any ideas?
I followed Dewi Lennard's (kikoratton) (who is on twitter now) research on the mobile phone records for over three years on two forums and he compared his calls to Murat's statements as well as to others including Gerry's. His research is no longer available online.  I can say that it is true that there was 30 hours of silence on the mobiles of RM and GM. They turned their phones off and on at the same time. IMO Murat was a willing patsy.
Estelle, why would anyone be a willing patsy that would probably involve jail time and your name tarnished, I can't get my head around that.
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Estelle on 08.11.13 16:58

candyfloss wrote:
Estelle wrote:
Hicks wrote:Yes, I agree with you, Murat is involved in all of this somehow. What I find odd is that when you look at photo's of Murat, especially helping the PJ in the early days he seems happy, comfortable almost excited to be in the spotlight, I think one journo said as much. Observing him he/she said( words to the effect) he appeared sweaty with nervous excitement.

I have been trying to ascertain whether the 30 hours phone silence on the mobiles of RM and GM are true or just internet mythology. If true then it cannot be coincidence. Any ideas?
I followed Dewi Lennard's (kikoratton) (who is on twitter now) research on the mobile phone records for over three years on two forums and he compared his calls to Murat's statements as well as to others including Gerry's. His research is no longer available online.  I can say that it is true that there was 30 hours of silence on the mobiles of RM and GM. They turned their phones off and on at the same time. IMO Murat was a willing patsy.
Estelle, why would anyone be a willing patsy that would probably involve jail time and your name tarnished, I can't get my head around that.
Hi CandyFloss, I realise it is difficult to understand and accept but before tonight, I thought it was generally accepted on forums that Murat was a willing patsy in return for money. I have accepted it for many years now.  His main motivation would have been for money because his business interests were struggling at the time. I think they used him to distract the PJ and the public and waste police time and also to support their abduction theory. He was probably told that the tapas4 would gradually change their stories so he would never be jailed and he would receive a huge payout for the libellous remarks the UK media printed about him and he did. He claimed that he would sue Jane Tanner once but he never did.  He saw his solicitor early that week so maybe he had a secret contract drawn up to protect him legally.  Who knows?
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 17:05

I've always thought, but wouldn't be able to proof it, that he WAS somehow involved with [part of] T9, but for reasons of this also being somewhat on the left side of the law, was not able to use it as proof of his innocence in the Madeleine case. IIRC he once called it the "biggest f*ck-up of history" [non verbatim].
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 17:26

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

The article in which he made the quote to which Chatelaine refers.
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 17:42

I wish I had the confidence of some of you about this confusing set of circumstances.   banghead       I read more than contribute, but cannot find that this book has been mentioned before and thought some might find it of interest.   I have put it here for some parts refer to Murat (more than I have copied) don't know if it's the right place.





http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/AlbyM_Books.htm






Book By Albert Moisiu: 
Madeleine Beth McCann A Mystery Story
HOMEPAGELAST PHOTO OF MADELEINE ANALYSIS BY ALBYMA Freedom of Expression foray:
BOOKSALBYM GRAPHIC DESIGNAlbym's analysis court appealPDF FILE LINK
CHRISTMAS 2008 A PRESENT FROM ALBYM TO ALL OUR READERS
The book below was written in 2008 By Albert Moisiu. If people would like to view the book click onto the picture below to go to Alby M Book where the PDF file can be downloaded. It is a very informative book and a lot of research has gone into it, it really is worth reading. Table of chapters below.







Two days later, on 9 September 2007, the McCann family 

flew back to England followed in very short order by the few 

remaining representatives of the British police.

The next day, 10 September. 2007, the former British 

ambassador to Portugal, John Buck, resigned from the 

diplomatic service entirely. The former British consul in the 

Algarve, Bill Henderson, had already resigned from his post in 

August 2007.

False accusations

The untruths, half-truths, misgivings and errors that led to 

the numerous false accusations that were to become something 

of a norm in the case began almost from its inception.

Aside from the terrorisation of obviously innocent victims 

during the plethora of false sightings, by far the worst 

accusations were those levelled at Robert Murat which began 

around 7 May when a female employed by a British paper 

revealed her suspicions to the Leicestershire Constabulary in 

UK about him reminding her of the perpetrator of the Soham 

murders
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 17:43

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-459316/Madeleine-Is-Robert-Murat-suspect-scapegoat.html

The article in which he made the quote to which Chatelaine refers.
***
Thank you, NFWTD airkiss 
Yes, that's the one: "Basically, I'm just an ordinary, straightforward guy who's the victim of the biggest f***-up on this planet - if you'll excuse the language," he said.
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Estelle on 08.11.13 18:28

Robert Murat criminal complaint against Jane Tanner
17 FEBRUARY 2010 




"Today, a UK media journalist, ITV'S Keir Simmons was able to confirm with Mr. Pagarete, Robert Murat's lawyer, that he has filed a legal complaint against Jane Tanner.

According to Portuguese Journalist Frederico Duarte de Carvalho'stwitter, the case which is still at the inquest phase and under the secrecy of justice, is taking place at the Criminal Court of Lagos, in the Algarve, and apparently Mr. Amaral has already testified. Jane Tanner has not yet been constituted as an arguida, nor has she appeared in court.

Robert Murat's criminal complaint against Jane Tanner for calumnious denunciation, has already heard some witnesses, and will continue to hear some more, one of which is Ricardo Paiva, the PJ inspector who is currently being called as a 'liar' by the McCanns Portuguese lawyer, Isabel Duarte.


http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2010/02/robert-murat-criminal-complaint-against.html



I remember that when forum members first read this, we were all excited that we would see Jane Tanner in court at last. But it seemed to be in direct response to new stories linking the two Exeter residents, Tanner and Murat.  There was a big noise about Tanner's and Murat's DNA being found in a few rooms at the Solimar hotel in Burgau (built by Murat's Dad).  Suddenly after 3 years he decided to sue Tanner. What better way to refute suspicions about them both than by saying (but not meaning) that he's going to sue Tanner. Why wait all this time? It seemed that the only ones not being foiled by all these libels and counter libels were the Police themselves.  
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 18:47

If there is any 'revisiting' of Robert Murat to be done, then we can not sweep aside this statement from someone who knew him very well:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Processos, Vol V
Pages 1286 to 1288

Witness Statement of Carlos Manuel Mateus Costa

Date: 2007.05.15.
Hour: 16H15
Location: DIC Portimao

Profession: Businessman

That he comes to the process as a witness and states:

• At seeing today and yesterday’s notices in the media  [MURAT MADE ARGUIDO - T.B.] , he has decided to give the following statement.

• States that he has known Robert Murat for about 25 years. That he worked with him at “Jacinto & Murat” from 1982 to 1984. This firm was owned by Robert’s father who has since passed away. At this time, Robert was eight years old. Immediately one noticed that Robert had a strange personality, staying away from people, and not wanting to engage. He had somewhat of a violent attitude. He remembers an episode where Robert, on the veranda on the first floor of the firm, threw vases from that exterior without checking to see if anyone was underneath him.

• At this time, the witness lived in Vila do Bispo. He was the neighbour of a British couple, P.L. and P.L. who are now deceased. This couple had a daughter whose name was L******, who was 17 years old. They were friends of Robert’s mother, JAN MURAT. She was always with her son and they would often go to the home next to the deponent’s in that same village. At this point Robert was 12 years old.

• L******, the neighbour already mentioned, told him that Robert had tried to have sexual relations with her mother’s cat. The animal responded by scratching him on various parts of his body. These injuries were seen by the by the deponent given that he [Robert] had visited the Castelejo beach in Vila do Bispo on various occasions. On one of these occasions, he saw Robert scratching at excoriations. He was told by L****** that Robert had killed the cat out of spite. He also states that he witnessed a macabre episode perpetrated by Robert. He saw him once again trying to have relations, this time with the family dog, who ended up being forced into the house, situated in Almadena, Eiras Velhas.

• Beside this, he states that when he went to the beach with Robert, he [Robert] would stay away from the rest of the group (about 15/20 metres) and not say a word to anyone the whole day.

• He also adds that a cousin of Robert, of British nationality, whose name he does not know, and who lives in his house, has suffered an assault by Robert. For this reason, she left the home. These acts were hidden by Robert’s mother, who protected him and who never punished him. At this point, Robert was 16 years old.

• He would like to add that according to what he knows about Robert, he was not surprised that he was described as a disturbed person who could very easily turn violent. He is also someone with a sadistic and deviant sexual personality, and who also is misanthropic. This is based on contact with him for 15 years.

• He also states that it is his opinion that Robert could have committed a crime of this nature - abduction of a child. That he does not have the capacity of getting involved in a paedophile ring. If he did abduct this child, then the witness believes she may be dead. He concludes this from Robert’s violent and deviant personality. He adds still that he also was violent with his mother when he was reprimanded and would react by kicking her.

• He asserts that Robert did receive psychiatric treatment whilst in the U.K.

• He has no other elements to offer the investigation.

• And nothing more was said, finds it in conformity, ratifies and signs.
 

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by unchained melody on 08.11.13 18:58

^ Crikey

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Research_Reader on 08.11.13 19:11

In my humble opinion it doesn't really get us any further to have some suggestion (which *may* have just been motivated by malice - I think Amaral says that in his book) that Murat has violent tendencies because the overall pattern of evidence still suggests that:

(1) There was no abduction
(2) The parents and T7's behaviour is suspicious and needs explaining

If Murat IS involved the scenario that seems more likely to me is that he somehow knew the McCanns or at least one of the T7 and assisted in providing a hiding place for the body, given his local property connections.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 19:23

Research_Reader wrote:In my humble opinion it doesn't really get us any further to have some suggestion (which *may* have just been motivated by malice - I think Amaral says that in his book) that Murat has violent tendencies because the overall pattern of evidence still suggests that:

(1) There was no abduction
(2) The parents and T7's behaviour is suspicious and needs explaining

If Murat IS involved the scenario that seems more likely to me is that he somehow knew the McCanns or at least one of the T7 and assisted in providing a hiding place for the body, given his local property connections.
***
That's been my thinking too for some time. Being an influential local, he either [IMO, of course] supplied the recreational stuff, they couldn't take past customs, or he gave them in good faith keys to an empty property and had problems to admit that, given the "situation", as that might have "killed" his reputation as a real estate agent ... Between a hard place and a rock, I'd say if my thinking is right ...
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by secrets and lies on 08.11.13 19:25

Unless the whole thing was planned, wasn't it risky enough for The McCanns to have the T7 involved without hiring help?(Murat.)

Surely if RM was involved he had very close connections to Mc's/T7's in order for them to trust him?
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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Research_Reader on 08.11.13 19:28

There is also the slightly strange fact that Murat suddenly returned to Portugal only a few days before, on an early morning flight, having only bought his flight ticket hours before, late at night. Like you would do if you had suddenly received an unexpected urgent need to return.

Strange. But doesn't obviously fit in with the other other evidence to create a plausible scenario.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Research_Reader on 08.11.13 19:34

secrets and lies wrote:Unless the whole thing was planned, wasn't it risky enough for The McCanns to have the T7 involved without hiring help?(Murat.)

Surely if RM was involved he had very close connections to Mc's/T7's in order for them to trust him?
Yes, risky, but it does potentially fit in with the evidence:

(1) They would have needed a hiding place for the body that wouldn't easily be found through a typical search of local beaches, bins, sheds etc
(2) They seemed to be very quickly intent on raising a LOT of money  - money which could be used to pay someone off
(3) If you believe the forensic/dog evidence, the body was subsequently transported in the hire car weeks after the initial alarm was raised on the disappearance, meaning there would needed to have been an interim hiding place

also, it would have served the McCanns to have had someone on the 'inside' observing the witnesses statements in the first stage of the police investigation, and Murat was able to do just that.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Tony Bennett on 08.11.13 20:04

Once again, things that we need to recall about Murat:

++++++++++++++++++++

From the PJ Files, Statement made 8 May 2007:

02-Processos Volume II PJ Record 8th May 2007 -

At about 20.00 the police received a phone call from a number that could not be identified, from a person with a female voice speaking in correct Portuguese, who did not want to be identified for reasons of safety.

She refers to an individual who abducted Madeleine, who knows how to keep quiet and is quite close to the police.

When asked who she was referring to she said it was an individual who resides in Praia da Luz, who has an English mother, who speaks this language very well, who was near the area since the disappearance of the little girl, supposedly with the intention of helping the investigation.

She said this man was called Robert and that he used to consult Internet chats of a pretty heavy sexual nature. (1)

He would also use Internet for contacts with different acquaintances he had in other countries, especially in the UK. She said most of the mails he sent were encrypted due to the monitoring of the kind of content they possessed. (2)

This is why she wanted to alert the authorities about the characteristics of this man, who, in her opinion, could have sexual motives and opportunity, knowing the area perfectly for committing or collaborating in this type of crime.

------------------------------

Notes:

1. Openly admitted by Murat

2. Police did indeed find encrypted material on his computer. He said he had no explanation for that. He 'didn't know how it happened'.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Research_Reader on 08.11.13 20:09

That is very strange. But if I genuinely had evidence that someone had abducted a small toddler I'm not sure I would be content with just giving the police one anonymous phone call, unless I was scared stiff of the risk of providing them with more information. But even then, its a young child's life!

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by Hicks on 08.11.13 20:13

Research_Reader wrote:
secrets and lies wrote:Unless the whole thing was planned, wasn't it risky enough for The McCanns to have the T7 involved without hiring help?(Murat.)

Surely if RM was involved he had very close connections to Mc's/T7's in order for them to trust him?
Yes, risky, but it does potentially fit in with the evidence:

(1) They would have needed a hiding place for the body that wouldn't easily be found through a typical search of local beaches, bins, sheds etc
(2) They seemed to be very quickly intent on raising a LOT of money  - money which could be used to pay someone off
(3) If you believe the forensic/dog evidence, the body was subsequently transported in the hire car weeks after the initial alarm was raised on the disappearance, meaning there would needed to have been an interim hiding place

also, it would have served the McCanns to have had someone on the 'inside' observing the witnesses statements in the first stage of the police investigation, and Murat was able to do just that.
When you put it like that it makes complete sense. Murat would have known where to find many empty properties.
His hastily booked flight in the 1st of May must be significant.

Rachael Oldfield, Fiona Payne and Russell O'Brien told the PJ in July of  2007 that they saw RM near the OC whilst they were searching. These three are said to have given statements to the PJ telling them that RM introduced himself by saying," I am Robert, can I help in the search?". 

So the options are..... 1. they were  all part of charade 2. they were trying to stitch up RM 3. they were just telling the truth.

Strangely when RM was made the official suspect the McCann's called for calm and appealed for him to be treated fairly.

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Re: MURAT revisited

Post by secrets and lies on 08.11.13 20:15

Hmm. Very interesting.

I don't believe i was aware of any of these allegations made about Murat, be they are rather disturbing, to say the very least.

If he were hired by the McCanns to store Madeleine's body, or help in some other way to cover their crime, could someone have blackmailed him into doing so if hey had some proof of his sexual proclivities? 

Was he a friend/associate in some way and willing to help? The observation of him being "sweaty with excitement" at helping the police out in the initial days is also chilling. Even had he been paid for his services how on earth could The McCanns have fully trusted him not to later tip off the police or blackmail them for more money etc. We can understand several reasons why the rest of the T7 might have entered into a pact (reputations/lack of full info/sedation etc) but HOW could Murat have been trusted unless he was somehow part of their "circle".

I can honestly find no way to look at this case in a simple light when you think about these kind of possibilities.
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