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'The Last Photo': The key questions

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Guest on 07.11.13 17:23

@canada12 wrote:Because if something else (or someone else) was there in the picture and you wanted to remove it, you can, but then you have to replace what you've removed to make the picture complete. And it depends on how much time you have, and what you can reasonably get away with. If you need to put an arm in to complete the photo, the arm has to come from somewhere else. And if there isn't an arm handy (sorry about the pun) that you can reasonably clone or shop in so that it looks realistic, you're stuck. So IMHO the photoshopper has tried to put in the barest vestiges of an arm to make you think there is an arm there.
Ok, well you are entitled to your opinion, but really as I said, that would be rather a stupid thing to do with police forces obviously scrutinising everything.  I think it best to leave the arm argument now, and agree to disagree.
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by canada12 on 07.11.13 17:30

OK :-) I'll agree to disagree.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by tigger on 07.11.13 18:00

candyfloss wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:
@dan55 wrote:No it's transparent that thing you are looking at. look at her left arm and how tightly the sleeve fits and then look again at the right sleeve it could not be where you say it is with the sleeve in that position in fact there is discoloration of the bottom of the sleeve where it has been photoshopped. The sleeve is not sloppy allowing that kind of movement but tight fitting.
The arm IS there. Enlarge the pic and you will see it
Yes, it is.  Can someone explain why anyone would put out a photoshop  picture with an arm missing?
We can see the photoshopping in many photos because it's very badly done. If Amelie's right arm was hidden in an original photo it would need something pasted in front of it. Which did not happen. But I think it was overlooked as indeed many here have overlooked it for years. 
The ice cream photo is indisputable, where Maddie's left arm does not connect to her elbow and so on. 
The photo of the children in Donegal leaves Maddie with an impossibly  thin neck. 
Maddie's wearing a wig  in many photographs, very clear to see sideways. If I can see it I'm sure the police can. 

Of course the police know there's something wrong with those photos, so far it's not the only evidence they've ignored.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by juliet on 07.11.13 20:03

The tennis photo, enlarged, seems to have odd lines close to the eyes. The playground photo is ludicrous with Maddie's right foot loo
king like another left foot plus if she stood up she would be really tall. Something odd about Gerry and Sean too. The playhouse pic has impossible yellow bit in door and the poor child looks wrongly shaped as so often.
I have often thought how scr uffy and cheap her clothes are in these pictures.
She never seems well cared for - except the Last Photo clothes.
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by juliet on 07.11.13 20:10

If every so called holiday snap appears to be heavily manipulated - what does that mean? No DNA, unreliable photographs evidence, only the Tapas gang to say she was there (and the scent of a dead body).
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by canada12 on 07.11.13 21:14

Re: the playhouse pic
Yes the yellow bit in the playhouse door is interesting. I did a comparison of an exact same playhouse make and style, and there are yellow bits on the door, but not where they appear in the picture. 

Also Madeleine's right arm (on her left side as we look at her) appears to be photoshopped in as the sleeve looks empty.

And if you look through the window of the door at the tennis court beyond, it's completely out of alignment of where the fencing should be.

I put this down to the playhouse being moved around (which it was), and the placing of Madeleine in the playhouse at that time was again, to put her in the playground at a certain time and date.

The playground pic with Gerry and the children is also notable for Madeleine having 2 left feet, and the tall dark man standing to the rear of the picture in an impossible position, with his foot going one way and his body going the other.

Also if you look at a reasonably good copy of the picture (ie here: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3577-playground-picture) you can clearly see, behind Sean, a green squiggly line running from him, up the grass, to the dark man's foot. It looks like a photoshop error, as it actually overlaps the hem of his trouser leg.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 08.11.13 10:32

Yes the Mccanns would not be dumb enough to lie consistently and contradict each other on tv would they? Yet the police ignore that. I am a photographer and the arm is not there, enlarge the little pink thing that has been put there it is transparent like a ghost. The Mccanns do what they want because they are untouchable or so they believe, no normal couple could get away with the hogwash they put out and at this moment they are in control of everything including the police, who have to report to them! how bizarre is that.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by tigger on 08.11.13 11:12

@dan55 wrote:Yes the Mccanns would not be dumb enough to lie consistently and contradict each other on tv would they? Yet the police ignore that. I am a photographer and the arm is not there, enlarge the little pink thing that has been put there it is transparent like a ghost. The Mccanns do what they want because they are untouchable or so they believe, no normal couple could get away with the hogwash they put out and at this moment they are in control of everything including the police, who have to report to them! how bizarre is that.
All this manipulation was done to back up the story put out to the press. But apart from the manipulation, the actual logic of the photographs is missing, e.g. lonely girl on a tennis court, the pink dress which was never seen again, the time of taking the photograph and to fit the little dress and shorts into the day's schedule, Maddie would have had to change clothes abourt 3 to 4 times.
The trainers with lights on the side in the playground photo, mentioned by the cleaner who saw a little blond girl wearing them on Sunday morning, are never seen again, the most needed footwear on the tenniscourt, but there she wears sandals, which should not be allowed. The different lengths of hair in photographs only days apart, the amazing shrinking girl at the poolside measured against the tennis girl.
The two Everton shirt photographs of which one doesn't even look like Maddie with her confident smile and high-blond hair. It's blindingly obvious that Maddie wasn't blond but had light brown hair.

So there you go, a whole lot of questions that don't even touch photoshopping.

Imo the manipulation was necessary because there were simply not a lot of photographs of Maddie at all. Otherwise we'd be seeing much better ones. So few too with other children or other members of the family. What's more natural than your Mum pulling you on her lap because Daddy's taking a picture? Few and far between.
That black and white  family shot, posed with the twins and Maddie off to the left side of the group looks like 4 + 1 to me. She isn't touching anyone, the parents and the twins are a group. Maddie's on her own imo.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 08.11.13 11:30

[/url]" />[/url]" />
I could not get into the illogical behaviour and statements as there aren't enough pages. But as for the arm trust your eyes.
https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=14&u=18603875][/url]

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=15&u=18603875][/url]

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 11:33

I think that all that needs to be asked about this photo is:

1) Why wasn't it produced immediately?

2) Why does it appear to have been taken on a blazing summer's day rather than in early May when the weather was indifferent?
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by sallypelt on 08.11.13 11:42

@dan55 wrote:[/url]" />[/url]" />
I could not get into the illogical behaviour and statements as there aren't enough pages. But as for the arm trust your eyes.
https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=14&u=18603875][/url]

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=15&u=18603875][/url]
Maybe I need to go to Specsave, because I can distinctively see  the arm.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by soundworks on 08.11.13 11:50

the arm is fairly tight in the sleeve on madeleines left arm but on the right arm there is loads of room _

doesn't look right to me

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by worriedmum on 08.11.13 11:54

@PeterMac wrote:Why doesn't the little house cast a shadow ?
I think it does, but not in the same direction as the shadows of Madeleine and the people walking behind her. More at 12 o'clock-like the one on the far right of the photo.How is that possible?

Speaking of shadows, I don't understand why , on the 'last photo' , there is a shadow under Gerry's chin (straight down), as if the light source is overhead, then another on Gerry's leg fron Amelie's hat, as if the light source is to the right of her as you look at it, but  under the sun loungers as if the light source is pointing towards the two o'clock position,diagonally from left to right. To me it seems like they are from three different directions?
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 08.11.13 12:09

https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=16&u=18603875][/url]


https://servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=17&u=18603875][/url]


The top photo is an enlargement of what you say is a arm it's transparent it is not a solid structure and it is coming out of the side of the top not the sleeve. The blue lines show where a normal arm should be.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Hicks on 08.11.13 14:57

The arm does not look right to me. If you compare with the other upper arm, that fills the frilly sleeve part completely. Amelie would need to have a stick thin arm for it to be right, and as we know, she doesn't.

I am starting to question whether Madeleine did indeed pass away earlier than the 3rd.
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by canada12 on 08.11.13 15:32

I think perhaps the simplest explanation for all these photoshopped pictures may just be a distinct lack of photographs of Madeleine, period. We have a lot of pictures released after the fact over the years, most of them to celebrate a special occasion - Christmas, birthdays, etc. Which is when most people take family photos, to mark the celebration. Also when relatives take photos. Which leads me to wonder whether most (not all) of the pictures we have of Madeleine were taken by friends or relatives, not Gerry and Kate. I wonder whether they took any pictures of all of Madeleine at PDL - perhaps they never planned to, and didn't - hence pictures taken by others, and manufactured pictures purporting to show Madeleine at play - happy doting parents with their happy child.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 08.11.13 15:39

All of Gerry's behaviour and the change in the routine all point that way. He even sent his fellow tennis player to the apartment (and not go himself) to make it appear she was there although he never saw her as Kate said she was tired? The woman from the creche said she wasn't there that day. If the photo is taken out of the equation then the police may have to look more closely at the Mccann's behaviour and activities earlier that day. They probably want to keep peoples minds away from that. If it was not so why fake the photo?? If they killed or got rid of her that night or she died by accident then this photo would serve no purpose it would be counter productive and draw attention to the actual scene and time of the event. If the photo is a fake, as I am sure it is, that points us in the right direction and not the way the Mccanns want us to go.
In reference again to the arm you can see something but does it look like the other arm? No not in any way! Track it up to her shoulder with an imaginary line and see where it goes it must be deformed!! Go to specsave twice at least. Do this put on a tight sleeved t-shirt and stand in front of a mirror and see if you can reproduce the effect of having the sleeve empty and the skinny ghostly looking arm appearing further down your body! It simply cannot be done. Moreover there is not enough of it to identify it as an arm it could be anything so you can say you think there is something there but you can't say it could be identified as an arm that is pure speculation based on what you expect to see there, you certainly cannot see an arm or anything that could be identified as such.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 08.11.13 16:26

That theory has some credit as it is more mind manipulation and if they were both working doctors someone else must have done the bulk of babysitting?? I would assume! It almost appears that they went on holiday and didn't know what to do with the kids! As they had not spent that much time with them in the past? pure speculation of course.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Guest on 08.11.13 17:55

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I think that all that needs to be asked about this photo is:

1) Why wasn't it produced immediately?

2) Why does it appear to have been taken on a blazing summer's day rather than in early May when the weather was indifferent?
***
You're right, NFWTD. And actually your number one question is the most important one. Remember that Woolfall sat down with the McCs on May 5 or 6 and downloaded pictures from their cameras to find one on which her face would be easily recognisable. Now ... if this one wouldn't have been the best, I'm at a complete loss, in all senses
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by aquila on 08.11.13 17:59

Châtelaine wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I think that all that needs to be asked about this photo is:

1) Why wasn't it produced immediately?

2) Why does it appear to have been taken on a blazing summer's day rather than in early May when the weather was indifferent?
***
You're right, NFWTD. And actually your number one question is the most important one. Remember that Woolfall sat down with the McCs on May 5 or 6 and downloaded pictures from their cameras to find one on which her face would be easily recognisable. Now ... if this one wouldn't have been the best, I'm at a complete loss, in all senses
It's always the simplest of questions where this whole thing falls down.

If your child were to go missing in UK (home patch) you might not have a really recent picture to hand, but on holiday with three kids and a camera there'd be loads surely!

Good post NFWTD.
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 08.11.13 20:26

Even odder on this web page http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeleine-mccann-crimewatch-air-reconstruction-2365930 MM seems to be wearing her sisters hat with the clip that is on the front of the hat in the photo of the the 3 of them in her hair. It is also supposed to be on the 3rd may 2007 the same day! yet Gerry said he was playing tennis with his freind not his wife that day? as well as sending her to the creche going for a meal and playing by the pool etc etc. Whatever suits heh! 
As an aside just look at the difference in the lighting was the tennis photo taken at night or twilight?? It could not have been the same day in daylight could it.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Guest on 11.11.13 9:11

A debate (a little heated as ever) on the last photo has sprung up on the topic about the Ullapool teacher. Please could the posts regarding the photo be continued here.
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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Veritas on 11.11.13 12:57

I must admit to not knowing much about the alleged inconsistencies in the various photographs.  Here are my thoughts from a cursory reading (i.e. I have barely seen any of the images, I'm responding to comments.) These comments may be influenced by my working for many years in design and publishing related fields and being a canny user of Photoshop. 

First and most obvious, I wouldn't want to make a single judgement without being able to verify a source file from a digital camera. And neither would the police. No prints, no emailed jpg's, no rehashes. Everyone could be chasing red herrings created by the confusion of multiple images scaled, rescaled, compressed and manipulated from multiple sources for multiple reasons none of which may necessarily be nefarious. We could be even chasing deliberate manipulations stemming from 'truthers.' We can't verify sources any better than TM. Artifacts, compression banding, and all before we even get to the demonstrable digital interventions and the question of 'why' they are present. 

Second, dispelling a myth... Light sources are not singular. It isn't as simple as the old Hollywood 'the sun was at the 12 noon and so all shadows should be straight down.' Light is reflecting and/or refracting off of literally everything around us. In a high sun environment, in an area surrounded by glass windows, metallic structures, and especially in a waterside environment, the overhead sun could be kicking off all kinds of surfaces and causing all kinds of distortions or anomalies, and added to that are the dynamic variables of perspective (real world photographs are 2d renderings of 3d perspectives on a multi-lit scene). In those environment I would expect a lot of ambient interference in light direction, and would also have to factor in the distortinG properties of the particular lens, camera noise, literally so many variables, not least polarised/non polarised etc. 

You can't do a digital forensic on anything but the original image, and I'll wager all most 'researchers'  have is a reproduction.

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by Curioser on 11.11.13 14:18

@Veritas wrote:I must admit to not knowing much about the alleged inconsistencies in the various photographs.  Here are my thoughts from a cursory reading (i.e. I have barely seen any of the images, I'm responding to comments.) These comments may be influenced by my working for many years in design and publishing related fields and being a canny user of Photoshop. 

First and most obvious, I wouldn't want to make a single judgement without being able to verify a source file from a digital camera. And neither would the police. No prints, no emailed jpg's, no rehashes. Everyone could be chasing red herrings created by the confusion of multiple images scaled, rescaled, compressed and manipulated from multiple sources for multiple reasons none of which may necessarily be nefarious. We could be even chasing deliberate manipulations stemming from 'truthers.' We can't verify sources any better than TM. Artifacts, compression banding, and all before we even get to the demonstrable digital interventions and the question of 'why' they are present. 

Second, dispelling a myth... Light sources are not singular. It isn't as simple as the old Hollywood 'the sun was at the 12 noon and so all shadows should be straight down.' Light is reflecting and/or refracting off of literally everything around us. In a high sun environment, in an area surrounded by glass windows, metallic structures, and especially in a waterside environment, the overhead sun could be kicking off all kinds of surfaces and causing all kinds of distortions or anomalies, and added to that are the dynamic variables of perspective (real world photographs are 2d renderings of 3d perspectives on a multi-lit scene). In those environment I would expect a lot of ambient interference in light direction, and would also have to factor in the distortinG properties of the particular lens, camera noise, literally so many variables, not least polarised/non polarised etc. 

You can't do a digital forensic on anything but the original image, and I'll wager all most 'researchers'  have is a reproduction.
Hallelujah. That's what I've been trying to tell Tigger et al on the Questions and Photographs thread. It's the blind leading the blind. https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8370-questions-and-photographs

This is interesting too: http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/LAST_PHOTO.htm

Find edges finds no significant unexpected edges and there are splashes of water scattered in the foreground that would be hard to add digitally. Although as the second link (by Albym) mentions, it could be a photo of a digitally enhanced image. It doesn't look that way to me though.

I did see exif data from the image or at least apparently from the photo. 
http://newsoutlines.blogspot.com.au/2007/03/last-photo-exif-data.html

Original date: [DateTimeOriginal ] = "2007:05:03 13:29:51"

So, if you believe this it is 'proof' that Maddie was alive at 2.29 pm on the third (the camera clock was out by an hour) but the image was taken into Photoshop on the 24th. It goes from the original 180 dpi to 72 so perhaps they used the Save for Web feature on the 24th of May, the day they released it.
Modification or Print date?: 
2007-05-24T17:41:20+01:00
2007-05-24T17:41:22+01:00
2007-05-24T17:41:22+01:00
Adobe Photoshop CS Windows



Can you shed any more light on this Veritas?

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Re: 'The Last Photo': The key questions

Post by dan55 on 11.11.13 14:40

The photo's I refer to are from the mccann's site or publications and it is possible for anyone without any photoshopping experience to see that the photo's are fake. They are supposed to have been taken at times when Gerry Mccann said he and Madeleine were elsewhere. I should look at the photo's in this thread more carefully before making sweeping nonsensical statements. Tell me how you get a square shadow from a circular object on a flat surface? If what you say is a line of thought to be followed they all could be fake or there actually could be no originals at all !!!! I say of course you can tell when a photo is photoshopped whether it is original or not that is by looking at it or using your brain and finding out that the person was somewhere else when the Photo's were taken!! We are not just talking about shadows here we are talking about people changing size, clothes, with arms missing etc. A person standing in the middle of a tennis court in strong daylight with the sun low and to their left will have one long shadow to the right it is simple really! You are merely trying to confuse and complicate the matter. Not every photo has multiple light sources. If you really knew anything about photography you should know that digital copies are exactly the same as the original and could be used for forensic analysis although it would be better to have the original. The pool photo was tampered with because it has no date! every camera gives a date in the exif file even if it is the wrong date. The Mccanns are putting these photo's out as original maybe you should take it up with them.

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