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The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 8:22

@soundworks wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@soundworks wrote:I may be wrong here but when ive been in somebars you order drinks

so say maybe only 4 of them wanted a drink say at 8 euro then a receipt would be printed off

now say 10 mins later 2 kids wanted a drink say 5 euro then another receipt would be printed off and attached to first receipt

this can go on for another few drinks then you get your final bill adding them up but not supplying a final total reciept


in other bars they just give you a final receipt with all your drinks on
That's plausible but either way, whether its the final bill or ones in between, its going to have the time on it - the time on it will be the time the bill was generated by the cash register. Before I made the original post I recalled this 'bar receipt' being mentioned, and never thought much of it - I just assumed this receipt existed. It's only when go looking for it, or any reference to it, that it can't be be found. From Smith's statement they said they left left the bar around 9:50 or 9:55pm but no reference to a receipt as proof.
yea but say you had a drink that lasted you an hour

say receipt was printed at 8-50pm you then take an hour to drink - you call the waiter over ,ask how much you owe then pay , the waiter goes over to the boss who is at till - he then just puts the cash in the till and the receipts have been marked to say they have been paid or just put in a box where all other bills have been paid
you then leave
Then the next question is what bill or receipt are you holding in your hand when you leave the bar? The 8:50pm one? If another final bill has been printed showing you've paid for everything then you will have a copy and I would expect there to be final bill entry in the cash machine records. But none of the entries for Kellys Bar show 9:55pm. So I can't figure out what proof the Smiths had to show they in the bar at 9:55pm - if they had any proof.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by soundworks on 06.11.13 8:29

no they only print the reciept for each individual round

the waiter / boss totals them up and then the waiter comes and tells you verbally or brings the 3/4/5 seperate receipts

the other way to do it would be to keep a tab eg write each round down then add them up when customer asks for bill then produce final bill/receipt but looking at receipts they seem too low to be doing it this way

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 8:39

@soundworks wrote:no they only print the reciept for each individual round

the waiter / boss totals them up and then the waiter comes and tells you verbally or brings the 3/4/5 seperate receipts

the other way to do it would be to keep a tab eg write each round down then add them up when customer asks for bill then produce final bill/receipt but looking at receipts they seem too low to be doing it this way
So the 9:55pm bar receipt doesn't exist, its never existed -that's what I'm assuming.

And just to add to what's already been said, the transactions obtained by the PJ can't be attributed to the Smiths or anyone else. All they show is a record of what was ordered / paid at a specific time.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by sami on 06.11.13 8:40

Aoife Smith says

— Regarding the 3rd of May, 2007, she went, with all her family, to eat at the Dolphin restaurant, which is close to Kelly's Bar. When they left the restaurant, around 21H30, they headed toward Kelly's Bar. They stayed there for about 30 minutes. 
— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment. 
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.

She is the only one who explains the timings in any detail, which is not much.

Three questions :

1.  Is it certain the till timing is correct
2.  Where did the issue of it being timed to a receipt come from - I don't recall seeing it in statements
3.  Is there any possibility the receipt is in the with-held part of the PJ files 

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by soundworks on 06.11.13 8:46

how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 8:51

@sami wrote:
Aoife Smith says

— Regarding the 3rd of May, 2007, she went, with all her family, to eat at the Dolphin restaurant, which is close to Kelly's Bar. When they left the restaurant, around 21H30, they headed toward Kelly's Bar. They stayed there for about 30 minutes. 
— Around 22H00, they left Kelly's Bar. The group headed, on foot, for their apartment. 
— Questioned, she responds that she knows the time that they left because her father and her brother decided to leave early that night. There were two reasons for this: one was the fact that her sister-in-law was not feeling very well and the other was because her brother, sister-in-law, nephew and son of her sister-in-law finished their holiday the next day and had to catch the morning flight returning to Ireland.

She is the only one who explains the timings in any detail, which is not much.

Three questions :

1.  Is it certain the till timing is correct
2.  Where did the issue of it being timed to a receipt come from - I don't recall seeing it in statements
3.  Is there any possibility the receipt is in the with-held part of the PJ files 
Just points 2 and 3 I remember it being mentioned maybe a few years ago and didn't think much of it, I assumed it was on the PJ files. But I haven't found this specific receipt they are said to have had. I think it was brought up again in a recent newspaper article. It would be strange if it was withheld.

Regarding the Smith's timings it seems to vary depending which member of the family has spoken and which paper they talk to. Mr Smith is quoted as saying had not spoken to the police since May 2007 when in fact one of the investigating officers spoke to him by phone in Sept 2007. So now Im not sure what to make of them.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 8:54

@soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc
That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by soundworks on 06.11.13 8:58

yea agree 100% there's no proof whatsoever

shame he didn't pay with credit card etc

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 9:09

@soundworks wrote:yea agree 100% there's no proof whatsoever

shame he didn't pay with credit card etc
And save us a lot of head scratching big grin
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by noddy100 on 06.11.13 9:16

Martin smith may have been 'advised' not to admit to helping create the photo fit as te mccanns probably decided as soon as they saw it that it would never see the light of day

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 06.11.13 9:25

@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc
That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.
This receipt may exist or it may not, there is a substantial amount of information that was not released on the DVD of the PJ Files.

I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of this, as we are wracking our brains over only PART of the information gathered. The PJ files as we know them are NOT the whole, definitive picture, PLUS the Leicestershire police DID NOT make their files public.

When pondering this case and the details, I try and keep this firmly in mind when something doesn't quite fit. ALL of our ponderings are based on only having PART of the material, so we will unlikely be able to construct a complete picture no matter hard we try.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by joyce1938 on 06.11.13 10:32

well said smoke and mirrors,so much trying to puzzle the times out is making us feel cranky . as said the till receipts would if mine go straight in bin or pockets and washed in machine.not sure why we feel they will be neededand why anyone would collect a lot of odd drinks receipts .  I have been many times to Portugal ,a few years back a lot didn't have machines and give receipts,just totted it up and you pay . I am not saying that is not needed to work things out if we can ,but as we don't have all info. we are kicking a dead horse.Mrs smith I believe had given a statement to police at the start and I think she said at a 2nd time ,she could not add anything else to it .,so left her first oneas it was. joyce1938
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by galena on 06.11.13 11:13

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc
That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.
This receipt may exist or it may not, there is a substantial amount of information that was not released on the DVD of the PJ Files.

I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of this, as we are wracking our brains over only PART of the information gathered. The PJ files as we know them are NOT the whole, definitive picture, PLUS the Leicestershire police DID NOT make their files public.

When pondering this case and the details, I try and keep this firmly in mind when something doesn't quite fit. ALL of our ponderings are based on only having PART of the material, so we will unlikely be able to construct a complete picture no matter hard we try.
That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Montclair on 06.11.13 12:07

Bars in Portugal don't operate with the same system as pubs in the UK. Here it is normally a waiter who comes to take your order and only, when you ask to pay is the tally made in the cash register with the respective date and time. I'm not sure about English pubs in Portugal but I suppose they operate in the same way as other Portuguese establishments. It is a mistake to analyse situations based on the English customs and ways when the crime took place in Portugal.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Montclair on 06.11.13 12:09

@galena wrote:
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@soundworks wrote:how many adults were there?

9_50.     8 euros.       4 pints?


5 mins to pay bill / get change / leave bar hence the 9_55 sighting?

I think the children wouldn't have had a drink so late as when my kids were younger they didn't have a drink after 8pm due to getting up to go to the toilet etc
That may all be true - but where's the receipt as proof that you were in the bar? That's all I'm questioning, whether this receipt ever existed or not.
This receipt may exist or it may not, there is a substantial amount of information that was not released on the DVD of the PJ Files.

I think we need to keep reminding ourselves of this, as we are wracking our brains over only PART of the information gathered. The PJ files as we know them are NOT the whole, definitive picture, PLUS the Leicestershire police DID NOT make their files public.

When pondering this case and the details, I try and keep this firmly in mind when something doesn't quite fit. ALL of our ponderings are based on only having PART of the material, so we will unlikely be able to construct a complete picture no matter hard we try.
That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?
The only witnesses who confirmed Gerry's presence at the Tapas were the Tapas 7, no independent witnesses could confirm or deny.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Woofer on 06.11.13 12:26

@galena wrote:That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?
Galena - can you give a reference for the dozens (that`s over 24) of people that vouched for his whereabouts and whether they were independent of the T7?
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by KellyLennon on 06.11.13 12:36

@noddy100 wrote:Martin smith may have been 'advised' not to admit to helping create the photo fit as te mccanns probably decided as soon as they saw it that it would never see the light of day
Agree with you there Noddy100
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by plebgate on 06.11.13 12:48

@Mirage.

Thanks for your OP about the till receipt.

Glad to hear that you are posting now and are over your illness. roses 

Just to add that I have read and agreed with a lot of your posts, but can't keep posting I agree, I agree.  lol.  Re the point
Joyce made about keeping till receipts from holiday.

Why would anybody keep a till receipt if paid in cash?   I would keep a receipt if made with a credit card, but put a cash one in the bin on the way out or make a tear in the top of it to show it's been paid and leave it on the table?

Edited to add some words second para.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Sockpuppet on 06.11.13 12:51

@plebgate wrote:@Mirage.

Thanks for your OP about the till receipt.

Glad to hear that you are posting now and are over your illness. roses 

Just to add that I have read and agreed with a lot of your posts, but can't keep posting I agree, I agree.  lol.  Re the point
Joyce made about keeping till receipts from holiday.

Why would anybody keep a till receipt if paid in cash?   I would keep a receipt if made with a credit card, but put a cash one in the bin on the way out or make a tear in the top of it to show it's been paid and leave it on the table?

Edited to add some words second para.
I don't bother keeping receipts for stuff like drinks bills, even if I pay via credit/debit card.  I'm not running a business, they have no use to me and I don't need lots of paper lying around.  I suspect this is fairly common behaviour.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 12:52

Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar? I thought it was the latter.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Sockpuppet on 06.11.13 13:02

candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  
The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Guest on 06.11.13 13:04

@Sockpuppet wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  
The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.
Ok, thanks.
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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by galena on 06.11.13 13:13

@Woofer wrote:
@galena wrote:That's very true.  The PJ at the time concluded that Gerry had an alibi for the time when the Smith's spotted the man, that dozens of people could vouch for his whereabouts at that time.  You certainly can't really ascertain his whereabouts from the information we have available so presumably they have witness statements we haven't seen?
Galena - can you give a reference for the dozens (that`s over 24) of people that vouched for his whereabouts and whether they were independent of the T7?
Hi Woofer. I think I read that in the Mccannfiles that at the original time of the sighting the PJ didn't believe it could really be Gerry that Martin Smith saw because 'dozens of witnesses' placed him in the Tapas area at the time. I don't have time now but I will look up the exact reference when I get home.

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by Mirage on 06.11.13 13:45

@ Plebgate
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I'm on the road to recovery thank you - three wheels on my wagon and I'm still rollin' along!

I know how responsive you have been personally and really do appreciate it, Plebgate. I certainly wouldn't expect responses from anyone much of the time - the thread needs to keep focused and there's little point posting 'I agree', as you say: it only bumps unnecessary stuff. However, I will confess to feeling miffed about being ignored on the bill receipt, not out of any vanity you understand, but purely because I thought it was so important.

I know there has been fierce debate of the Smith statements. I sense that people are weary of the whole case -I know I am. It is also a major downer to discover that our society is even more corrupt than we thought. I think it is maybe for this reason that the forum has been a little scratchy in the last few days. That is my impression anyway. However, it is of paramount importance that ALL statements are subjected to the "forum microscope" with equal vigour!

Apart from the bill receipt there are other anomalies in the Smith statements that don't sit well with me. There is a huge temptation, I am sure, to WANT to believe this sighting. I quite understand that it has given the outside world a jolt, what with those e-fits that have been widely commented on as looking like GM. However, I feel it would be a mistake to forget the Machiavellian twists and turns that characterise this case. We know/sense dark powers at work and there is every chance that we could be led up the proverbial garden path in the eleventh hour with no way back.

Whilst on the subject, the bill is not the only area that concerns me.

 When something strikes you and lingers in the mind, it should not be ignored IMO. If, for example, I went to the police and reported a sighting of something suspicious in relation to a known crime, I would expect my statement to be taken in a formal way and sent off to the relevant force. What I would not expect, would be an appraisal of my respected character and standing in the community to accompany that statement. This colours the statement and lends unaccountable weight to someone else's testimony. IMO, that is overstepping the mark.

Well, that's me tuppence worth for now. Thanks again Plebgate. roses

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Re: The TIME of the alleged Smith Sighting & the Till Receipts that don't Tally?

Post by SixMillionQuid on 06.11.13 13:48

candyfloss wrote:
@Sockpuppet wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Where they his receipts or did the PJ get them from the bar?  I thought it was the latter.  
The PJ got the bar receipts.  I was under the impression people were discussing why Smith didn't keep his receipt.
Ok, thanks.
The receipts the PJ obtained several months later, appear to be generated from the records of transactions in cash registers.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_SMITH.htm

All the available documentation was requested concerning the expenses in the bar on the night of 3rd May 2007 as we were given the cash register from which photocopies were made referring to the period between 20.00 and 24.00, which is annexed to this report.

Signed

Ricardo Paiva

Annexes


And when looking this series of entries
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P12/12_VOLUME_XIIa_Page_3278.jpg

one transaction was at 21:50 and the next at 22:16. So if the Smith's had a receipt for 21:55, whether its the final bill or not it should show up between these two times. So if the PJ witheld this info from the released files then how did they erase the entry from this printout and why? Surely by keeping it in the above printout it would go some way to prove the Smiths were right about their timings.
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