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New Heights of insanity - Express

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by oakeso on 03.11.13 14:33

Can anyone help me understand why the mother, father and brother of 12 year old Aoife might encourage her to lie both verbally and in writing to police in at least one country if not two or three?

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by Rob Royston on 03.11.13 14:34

@StraightThinking wrote:
@susible wrote:Okay, so first time I've logged onto the forum in over a week as I've been away, and now apparently Martin Smith is being discredited???
What exactly he saw, and how useful it is, is open to question, but this new development is beyond me after 6 years of discussion in which nobody ever appeared to discredit him. Why one independent witness should deliberately pervert the course of justice, with nothing to gain from it, is hard to understand. When you add the fact that he allegedly got his entire family to break the law just to help Murat (who didn't need his help anyway) is incomprehensible
There are people leading in the fight against the powers that be that are known to some as "dis-informationists". They go, or get taken to, extraordinary lengths to prove their credentials with their followers. Then, when the tide starts turning against their real agenda and the people see a glimmer of light emerging they are employed to lead their flocks back into the dark confused pen.
It's always best to make up your own mind and weigh up everything against what you know to be true before you take it in.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by bellum on 03.11.13 14:35

Sometimes it takes time to associate facts. It could have take time to the Smiths tor remember the man with the child, that night. But on his book, Amaral tells that Martin Smith went to the Irish police.
They went back to Luz on May 26th, to show the place where they had seen that man.

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Post by aniandr on 03.11.13 14:43

duh duh Maybe the burgler who by accident knocked madeleine out (as she is not dead right) got nervous and therefor run around 45 min to find her medical parents but cant find them (as they are not there right) and then runs to a drugstore to get medicine as he got a headache from all that running. Realising its closed he decide to go to his boat which is parker among the rocks in the water.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by SixMillionQuid on 03.11.13 14:45

@bellum wrote:Sometimes it takes time to associate facts. It could have take time to the Smiths tor remember the man with the child, that night. But on his book, Amaral tells that Martin Smith went to the Irish police.
They went back to Luz on May 26th, to show the place where they had seen that man.
In his statement Mr smith says that when he was contacted by relative on 4th May 2007 it was at that point he thought it could have been Madeliene. He was still in Portugal at that time so I don't know what else is there for him to think about before going to the police.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by bellum on 03.11.13 14:46

If the Smiths went to the Irish police, why  did not those authorities immediately communicate with Portimão? Why waiting for a call from Martin Smith?
I believe that Ireland informed the PJ.

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Post by aniandr on 03.11.13 14:47

I think the smith sighting is true and i think the smiths are afraid of a lawsuit if they say its gerry

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 14:48

So we have Martin Smith and his large family group holidaying in PdL.  Some are leaving on the 4th May, others on the 9th.  They all go for a night out on the 3rd, where they subsequently see someone carrying a young child at approx 10pm when they leave a bar.  On the evening of the 3rd they are totally unaware of what has happened.  The following day some family members leave to go home, so I imagine there is a lot of activity in the Smith household, packing, making sure the family members get to the airport in time etc and probably don't have a clue what is going on around them, too wrapped up in their own goings on.

You've got to remember here that only the Mc's were screaming abduction at that point, everyone else just assumes a child has got lost...a missing child in a seaside resort, not exactly big news.  The Smiths possibly thought "oh dear, hope they find her" and carried on with their own family holiday..why wouldn't they?  It's not really their problem.  Then after they arrive home and probably spend a few days getting back to normal, unpacking, doing holiday laundry etc they then realise that this child was  never found and now it's being classed as an abduction!  Whoa, remember that guy we saw on the way home carrying a child approx that age...lets phone the police and tell them what we saw.

Not everyone immerses themselves in the wider goings on of life, people can be very self absorbed and there's nothing wrong with that.  Many people on holiday do not read newspapers or watch the news because they want to get away from all of that and yet again there's nothing wrong with that.  So I'm sorry but I can't really go with Smith and his family, including a younger child, just making the whole thing up.  I think sometimes you've got to go with the more rational explanation and that is they just weren't too interested or bothered about a child who got lost in the town they were staying in and were focused on their own family goings on until they became aware of the gravity of the situation, which just happened to be 13 days later.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 03.11.13 14:50

Would you expect the medical centre to be open at 10 pm. It looks more like a local GP's surgery and a 24 hour A and E.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 14:55

@Rob Royston wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@susible wrote:Okay, so first time I've logged onto the forum in over a week as I've been away, and now apparently Martin Smith is being discredited???
What exactly he saw, and how useful it is, is open to question, but this new development is beyond me after 6 years of discussion in which nobody ever appeared to discredit him. Why one independent witness should deliberately pervert the course of justice, with nothing to gain from it, is hard to understand. When you add the fact that he allegedly got his entire family to break the law just to help Murat (who didn't need his help anyway) is incomprehensible
There are people leading in the fight against the powers that be that are known to some as "dis-informationists". They go, or get taken to, extraordinary lengths to prove their credentials with their followers. Then, when the tide starts turning against their real agenda and the people see a glimmer of light emerging they are employed to lead their flocks back into the dark confused pen.
It's always best to make up your own mind and weigh up everything against what you know to be true before you take it in.
Sorry not really following what you're saying.  Are you accusing me and StraightThinking of being  dis-informationists or Tony and why would anyone, apart from the McCanns give dis-information about the case?

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by SixMillionQuid on 03.11.13 14:58

@susible wrote:So we have Martin Smith and his large family group holidaying in PdL.  Some are leaving on the 4th May, others on the 9th.  They all go for a night out on the 3rd, where they subsequently see someone carrying a young child at approx 10pm when they leave a bar.  On the evening of the 3rd they are totally unaware of what has happened.  The following day some family members leave to go home, so I imagine there is a lot of activity in the Smith household, packing, making sure the family members get to the airport in time etc and probably don't have a clue what is going on around them, too wrapped up in their own goings on.

You've got to remember here that only the Mc's were screaming abduction at that point, everyone else just assumes a child has got lost...a missing child in a seaside resort, not exactly big news.  The Smiths possibly thought "oh dear, hope they find her" and carried on with their own family holiday..why wouldn't they?  It's not really their problem.  Then after they arrive home and probably spend a few days getting back to normal, unpacking, doing holiday laundry etc they then realise that this child was  never found and now it's being classed as an abduction!  Whoa, remember that guy we saw on the way home carrying a child approx that age...lets phone the police and tell them what we saw.

Not everyone immerses themselves in the wider goings on of life, people can be very self absorbed and there's nothing wrong with that.  Many people on holiday do not read newspapers or watch the news because they want to get away from all of that and yet again there's nothing wrong with that.  So I'm sorry but I can't really go with Smith and his family, including a younger child, just making the whole thing up.  I think sometimes you've got to go with the more rational explanation and that is they just weren't too interested or bothered about a child who got lost in the town they were staying in and were focused on their own family goings on until they became aware of the gravity of the situation, which just happened to be 13 days later.
It was enough to be of concern to Mr Smith on the 4th May

"Urged, states that when he passed this individual it would have been around 22H00, and at the time he was completely unaware that a child had disappeared. He only became aware of the disappearance of the child the next morning, through his daughter, L*****, in Ireland who had sent him a message or called him regarding what had happened. At this point he thought that MADELEINE could have been the child he saw with the individual."
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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 15:03

@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@susible wrote:So we have Martin Smith and his large family group holidaying in PdL.  Some are leaving on the 4th May, others on the 9th.  They all go for a night out on the 3rd, where they subsequently see someone carrying a young child at approx 10pm when they leave a bar.  On the evening of the 3rd they are totally unaware of what has happened.  The following day some family members leave to go home, so I imagine there is a lot of activity in the Smith household, packing, making sure the family members get to the airport in time etc and probably don't have a clue what is going on around them, too wrapped up in their own goings on.

You've got to remember here that only the Mc's were screaming abduction at that point, everyone else just assumes a child has got lost...a missing child in a seaside resort, not exactly big news.  The Smiths possibly thought "oh dear, hope they find her" and carried on with their own family holiday..why wouldn't they?  It's not really their problem.  Then after they arrive home and probably spend a few days getting back to normal, unpacking, doing holiday laundry etc they then realise that this child was  never found and now it's being classed as an abduction!  Whoa, remember that guy we saw on the way home carrying a child approx that age...lets phone the police and tell them what we saw.

Not everyone immerses themselves in the wider goings on of life, people can be very self absorbed and there's nothing wrong with that.  Many people on holiday do not read newspapers or watch the news because they want to get away from all of that and yet again there's nothing wrong with that.  So I'm sorry but I can't really go with Smith and his family, including a younger child, just making the whole thing up.  I think sometimes you've got to go with the more rational explanation and that is they just weren't too interested or bothered about a child who got lost in the town they were staying in and were focused on their own family goings on until they became aware of the gravity of the situation, which just happened to be 13 days later.
It was enough to be of concern to Mr Smith on the 4th May

"Urged, states that when he passed this individual it would have been around 22H00, and at the time he was completely unaware that a child had disappeared. He only became aware of the disappearance of the child the next morning, through his daughter, L*****, in Ireland who had sent him a message or called him regarding what had happened. At this point he thought that MADELEINE could have been the child he saw with the individual."
No, there is nothing in his statement that suggests concern, just that at that point he thought that Madeleine COULD have been the child he saw with the individual.  Yet again though you are completely ignoring human nature, remember he had his own family members leaving that day to go home, he was probably more concerned with making sure that they were packed and on time for their flights to be bothered phoning the police and possibly getting him and his wider family involved in giving statements, which would subsequently delay them and possibly missing their flights for something that COULD turn out to be unimportant.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by SixMillionQuid on 03.11.13 15:09

@susible wrote:
@SixMillionQuid wrote:
@susible wrote:So we have Martin Smith and his large family group holidaying in PdL.  Some are leaving on the 4th May, others on the 9th.  They all go for a night out on the 3rd, where they subsequently see someone carrying a young child at approx 10pm when they leave a bar.  On the evening of the 3rd they are totally unaware of what has happened.  The following day some family members leave to go home, so I imagine there is a lot of activity in the Smith household, packing, making sure the family members get to the airport in time etc and probably don't have a clue what is going on around them, too wrapped up in their own goings on.

You've got to remember here that only the Mc's were screaming abduction at that point, everyone else just assumes a child has got lost...a missing child in a seaside resort, not exactly big news.  The Smiths possibly thought "oh dear, hope they find her" and carried on with their own family holiday..why wouldn't they?  It's not really their problem.  Then after they arrive home and probably spend a few days getting back to normal, unpacking, doing holiday laundry etc they then realise that this child was  never found and now it's being classed as an abduction!  Whoa, remember that guy we saw on the way home carrying a child approx that age...lets phone the police and tell them what we saw.

Not everyone immerses themselves in the wider goings on of life, people can be very self absorbed and there's nothing wrong with that.  Many people on holiday do not read newspapers or watch the news because they want to get away from all of that and yet again there's nothing wrong with that.  So I'm sorry but I can't really go with Smith and his family, including a younger child, just making the whole thing up.  I think sometimes you've got to go with the more rational explanation and that is they just weren't too interested or bothered about a child who got lost in the town they were staying in and were focused on their own family goings on until they became aware of the gravity of the situation, which just happened to be 13 days later.
It was enough to be of concern to Mr Smith on the 4th May

"Urged, states that when he passed this individual it would have been around 22H00, and at the time he was completely unaware that a child had disappeared. He only became aware of the disappearance of the child the next morning, through his daughter, L*****, in Ireland who had sent him a message or called him regarding what had happened. At this point he thought that MADELEINE could have been the child he saw with the individual."
No, there is nothing in his statement that suggests concern, just that at that point he thought that Madeleine COULD have been the child he saw with the individual.  Yet again though you are completely ignoring human nature, remember he had his own family members leaving that day to go home, he was probably more concerned with making sure that they were packed and on time for their flights to be bothered phoning the police and possibly getting him and his wider family involved in giving statements, which would subsequently delay them and possibly missing their flights for something that COULD turn out to be unimportant.
The rest of the family had gone and he remained behind until the 9th May. Aren't we entering Jane Tanner territory again...see something but say nothing? Bundleman sees himself six year later?
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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by bellum on 03.11.13 15:11

I completaly agree with you, Susible.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by StraightThinking on 03.11.13 15:15

How much publicity did M's disappearance get in the Irish media in those first 13 days?

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 15:18

No, I don't think we are entering Jane Tanner land again.  Smith saw someone carrying a child, that's not so unusual, yes on reflection it COULD have been Madeleine, but he clearly didn't think enough about it to care.  Yes, when he inevitably heard that his friend Murat was possibly involved that was enough to shift him into action because he knew the person that he saw was not Murat, hence he phoned the police.  

Like I say you have to remember that most people are pretty self-centred and don't tend to get involved in things that don't concern them and who knows, if Murat had not become a suspect, perhaps Martin Smith may never have come forward with his information because it didn't really concern him and he didn't really care.  Okay that sounds a bit harsh, but it is a very real part of human nature.  Sad but true.

And for the record, I don't believe there ever was a Tannerman, I think SY discounted it because they knew Tanner was lying but yet again don't really have proof of that, so they claimed to have found him and eliminated him.  I can only imagine the thoughts of the Mc's and the tapas group when that bombshell was dropped, knowing that someone they had invented had been eliminated by SY...fear springs to mind

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by canada12 on 03.11.13 15:21

Here's a thought. The police were convinced there was a blue tennis bag missing.

If you had a small child that you wanted to spirit away (unconscious or dead), yes, you could carry that child through the streets and hope you weren't seen.

Or you could put the child in a carry-bag and safely walk the streets, and be seen, and there would be nothing suspicious about you.

I remember on 3As the theory was raised that perhaps both Bundleman and Smithman were the same person, carrying - not Madeleine, but the sleeping child of one of the other Tapas 9 - who did in fact bear quite a resemblance to Madeleine. This person was a decoy, to muddle the facts even further, while M was carried away, out of sight, by someone else.

Just suppose for a moment that Smithman was a decoy. Perhaps the gentleman carrying the child saw the Smith family ahead of him and thought, ah, excellent opportunity to get myself seen. And so he carried on. And was seen. Success.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by Rob Royston on 03.11.13 15:24

@susible wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@susible wrote:Okay, so first time I've logged onto the forum in over a week as I've been away, and now apparently Martin Smith is being discredited???
What exactly he saw, and how useful it is, is open to question, but this new development is beyond me after 6 years of discussion in which nobody ever appeared to discredit him. Why one independent witness should deliberately pervert the course of justice, with nothing to gain from it, is hard to understand. When you add the fact that he allegedly got his entire family to break the law just to help Murat (who didn't need his help anyway) is incomprehensible
There are people leading in the fight against the powers that be that are known to some as "dis-informationists". They go, or get taken to, extraordinary lengths to prove their credentials with their followers. Then, when the tide starts turning against their real agenda and the people see a glimmer of light emerging they are employed to lead their flocks back into the dark confused pen.
It's always best to make up your own mind and weigh up everything against what you know to be true before you take it in.
Sorry not really following what you're saying.  Are you accusing me and StraightThinking of being  dis-informationists or Tony and why would anyone, apart from the McCanns give dis-information about the case?
I'm commenting on your surprise at coming back after a week away and finding Martin Smith and his family being discredited. This is happening across the internet. It is well known that the best way to propagate an untruth is through the enemies camp(s).

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by Guest on 03.11.13 15:26

Rob Royston wrote:
 
I'm commenting on your surprise at coming back after a week away and finding Martin Smith and his family being discredited. This is happening across the internet. It is well known that the best way to propagate an untruth is through the enemies camp(s).

Would you like to expand on that & tell us what you are actually saying.
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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by Tony Bennett on 03.11.13 15:27

@oakeso wrote:Can anyone help me understand why the mother, father and brother of 12 year old Aoife might encourage her to lie both verbally and in writing to police in at least one country if not two or three?
This has been answered before.

For how many reasons do people lie? (and get others to lie with them?)

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 15:27

@Rob Royston wrote:
@susible wrote:
@Rob Royston wrote:
@StraightThinking wrote:
@susible wrote:Okay, so first time I've logged onto the forum in over a week as I've been away, and now apparently Martin Smith is being discredited???
What exactly he saw, and how useful it is, is open to question, but this new development is beyond me after 6 years of discussion in which nobody ever appeared to discredit him. Why one independent witness should deliberately pervert the course of justice, with nothing to gain from it, is hard to understand. When you add the fact that he allegedly got his entire family to break the law just to help Murat (who didn't need his help anyway) is incomprehensible
There are people leading in the fight against the powers that be that are known to some as "dis-informationists". They go, or get taken to, extraordinary lengths to prove their credentials with their followers. Then, when the tide starts turning against their real agenda and the people see a glimmer of light emerging they are employed to lead their flocks back into the dark confused pen.
It's always best to make up your own mind and weigh up everything against what you know to be true before you take it in.
Sorry not really following what you're saying.  Are you accusing me and StraightThinking of being  dis-informationists or Tony and why would anyone, apart from the McCanns give dis-information about the case?
I'm commenting on your surprise at coming back after a week away and finding Martin Smith and his family being discredited. This is happening across the internet. It is well known that the best way to propagate an untruth is through the enemies camp(s).
No, sorry I'm still being dense.  What is happening across the internet?  Who is the enemy and what is the untruth that is being propagated?  You really will have to spell it out for me because I'm having a slow day.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by SixMillionQuid on 03.11.13 15:32

@susible wrote:No, I don't think we are entering Jane Tanner land again.  Smith saw someone carrying a child, that's not so unusual, yes on reflection it COULD have been Madeleine, but he clearly didn't think enough about it to care.  Yes, when he inevitably heard that his friend Murat was possibly involved that was enough to shift him into action because he knew the person that he saw was not Murat, hence he phoned the police.  

Like I say you have to remember that most people are pretty self-centred and don't tend to get involved in things that don't concern them and who knows, if Murat had not become a suspect, perhaps Martin Smith may never have come forward with his information because it didn't really concern him and he didn't really care.  Okay that sounds a bit harsh, but it is a very real part of human nature.  Sad but true.

And for the record, I don't believe there ever was a Tannerman, I think SY discounted it because they knew Tanner was lying but yet again don't really have proof of that, so they claimed to have found him and eliminated him.  I can only imagine the thoughts of the Mc's and the tapas group when that bombshell was dropped, knowing that someone they had invented had been eliminated by SY...fear springs to mind
But he did care. On the 4th May he did care there was a possibility who he saw could be Madeliene - its in his statement.
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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by Guest on 03.11.13 15:33

@Tony Bennett wrote:
@oakeso wrote:Can anyone help me understand why the mother, father and brother of 12 year old Aoife might encourage her to lie both verbally and in writing to police in at least one country if not two or three?
This has been answered before.

For how many reasons do people lie? (and get others to lie with them?)
Yes, we all know people lie for many reasons, but in such a serious case as this of a missing child, and to the Police?  Also to get a young girl to lie for you, I just can't see it at all.
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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 15:40

But he did care. On the 4th May he did care there was a possibility who he saw could be Madeliene - its in his statement.
Yes, but he didn't care enough to actually phone the police that day, did he.  Who knows what his reasons were, but the fact that he had family members leaving to go home is possibly a reason for not doing so.  Too concerned with his own family to care enough about what was happening to other people.  He only started to care enough when one of his own friends was being implicated, then he took action.  That's perfectly rational to me.

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Re: New Heights of insanity - Express

Post by susible on 03.11.13 15:43

candyfloss wrote:
@Tony Bennett wrote:
@oakeso wrote:Can anyone help me understand why the mother, father and brother of 12 year old Aoife might encourage her to lie both verbally and in writing to police in at least one country if not two or three?
This has been answered before.

For how many reasons do people lie? (and get others to lie with them?)
Yes, we all know people lie for many reasons, but in such a serious case as this of a missing child, and to the Police?  Also to get a young girl to lie for you, I just can't see it at all.
I totally agree Candy, yes the tapas lot lied, but that was to cover their own backsides.  Getting a child to lie is a totally different matter, to add to which, children can be notoriously truthful at times and cannot necessarily be relied upon to lie properly, there's always the chance that they will slip up with the truth

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