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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

Please log in, or register to view all the forums as some of them are 'members only', then settle in and help us get to the truth about what really happened to Madeleine Beth McCann.

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Post by tigger 07.11.13 7:18

Seconded above posts and welcome Veritas. 

Trolls love to  discuss the 3rd of May ad infinitum - it won't hurt TM a bit. 

I think the origin of this affair lies in 2006, explanations are lacking for an awful lot of pre- and post event 'adjustments'. 

We get a choice of a black hole or a fairy tale  when we look at Healy and McCann's life before 3/5/07.

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Post by StraightThinking 07.11.13 7:50

@MaryB wrote:I also agree with the exact timings should be re-examined.  What time was the alarm raised. Was it 10 o'clock or was it quite a bit earlier.  I wonder if we will ever find out.
I'd say it's pretty certain the alarm was actually raised around 21.15-21.20, MaryB
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Post by Veritas 07.11.13 8:36

Thanks for the welcome. 

As a UK citizen I continue to be as outraged as any by the preposterous levels of impunity with which these individuals are able to - and encouraged to - operate.  As outraged as I am for justice for MM, I'm more outraged still for the victim "Truth." crimes occur, as do accidents. They are a tragic part of human nature. Being coldly objective, when a child is killed, accidentally or unlawfully, the child dies and those close to it are directly affected, but it is an emotional stretch to say that society suffers in any way. Yet we universally recognise that society suffers with each travesty which goes unpunished, each perversion of the course of justice, because these are the things that keep our society in check. And such a contrivance, connivance and conspiracy occurs which robs us of truth, rapes us in injustice and presumes to disregard us as the most contemptuous ignoramuses, the insult of the crime against one is magnified exponentially through the act of conspiracy. 

That's where I'm at. I'm a fascinated student of the anatomy of conspiracy, its nature, its participants, and its outcome as well as, hopefully, its undoing. I have little interest in murder cases or misadventure until they reveal themselves to be impossibly complex, vexatious cases which bear the hallmarks of being far more than they appear to be. 

Now, there are 101 ways that TM could have spun this and led a merry dance. But the degree of success they have had in avoiding even the public addressing of the appearance of guilt has been nothing short of miraculous. The rapid deployment of what can only be described as the fifth fleet of British diplomatic and politiceal support was the kind of muster that can be barely expected for natural disasters. The collusion of press on such a unified scale is in itself beyond incredulous, even to the most ardent cynic. We can no more believe that the hardened buccaneers of investigative journalism joined ranks with the amoral privateers of tabloid journalism to find a warm and fluffy place to believe the best. To do so would be the equivalent of watching as Conan Doyle, with a stroke of a pen, retired his famed creation at the outset of a mysterious case with a weary sigh and the words 'It' s just coincidence, Watson. Please have Mrs Hudson send up some Horlicks.' 

What TM had the means to do in creating their own security in this matter is barely the tip of the iceberg of diverse influences which were brought to bear in ensuring that they avoided even serious investigation for 7 years, and there was no credible public interest to serve in doing so. Just a vast array of inexplicable private interest which bears the hallmarks of more agancies and security apparatus than would even be plausible. 

Why this unravels now is beyond me. I don't perceive the MC's as being important enough to preserve. Beyond the principals I then wonder if someone named at the Tapas table was importsant enough to avoid scandal. Or maybe someone unnamed. Maybe wider associates. Maybe a dead 'missing' child strung out in a media mystery spanning nearly a decade is worth more than a quick resolution, though I don't see media power being extended soopportunistically elsewhere. High level pedophilia? Doubtful. Defies the very objective of keeping a low profile and taking unnecessary risks. Maybe a tapas table indiscretion perpetrated by an informed and knowledgeable insider capable of leveraging friends and diplomats alike? Unlikely. Yet this case seems to contain shadows and indications of so many massive cases coming out in the UK today... How are TM more bulletproof than Savile and the unfortunate indulgents of the BBC? What part do they play in the Newscorp and Hackgate? They certainly appear to be having the cannons of the world's largest media corporations turn on them in revenge for biting the hand that feeds, but why was that hand EVER feeding the animals in that particular zoo.?  Clearly the scale of the web is so great that it denies us the information which would blow the lid off the crime AND the conspiracy. 

Perhaps by coincidence, perhaps by design, perhaps by opportunism or perhaps by insidious collaboration, the conspiracy against truth would appear, perhaps, to ensnare many who WOULD like to blow a whistle, but cannot without admitting a more grave guilt. 

Example in recent times, the media were given an opportunity to re-examine a certain car accident in Paris due to the momentum gained by a new flow of allegations arising from the coincidental revelation in an unrelated case of a matter of fact accusation of conspiracy and unlawful involvement ofna government agency. Curiously, the case in question was in itself a vexatious nonsense, a waste of public resources, which in a Wonderland like the UK has become, makes me wonder if someone reached through the looking glass and contrived the prosecution of a nonsense case in order to indirectly bring pertinent information back into the public arena without incriminating the source or agitant. 

We think Wikileaks. We think Snowden. We think international standoff over illegal surveillance and the realities of of a Western dominated Big Brother. A little known fact of several high profile recoveries of the UK's most wanted criminals from overseas is the involvement of a certain surveillance station operated by No Such agency of the United States in the pleasant hills of North Yorkshire. 

Do they have enough to convict TM, down to every last member? Does national security and diplomatic sensitivity preclude them ever being able to reveal the source? And are they know concentrating their efforts on winding up the case that the public won't let go away on trying to shake loose a confession, a tip, a body, a smoking gun? The scale of involvement has the appearance of being vast and inexplicably so. Would the Portuguese take kindly to having been under such complete surveillance in the run up to the Lisbon Treaty and since, that every word in and out of Luz was monitored within moments of first contact, without warrants or due process? Fiction, perhaps, but a fascinating one. Look at the biggest players in the conspiracy, hidden hands and revealed. Qui bene?
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Post by Pennypennypenny 07.11.13 8:51

I myself believe she probably did wander off. TM don't want this scenario because it makes them complicit. The abduction theory was pushed because then it was the nasty bogie man, not their responsibility.
The only trouble with this is that TM seem very very sure a body will never be found.
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Post by noddy100 07.11.13 9:25

One thing that puzzles me is how good the photo fit is if you were wanting to implicate gerry
It is just so like him I have seen many over the years and they only give a vague overall sense of the person as
in colour distinguishing features etc 
If this was produced by the Smiths description could Oakley have 'enhanced' it as along with their other findings
they just knew what the real story is And why would they do this when they knew for sure they would stop getting paid?
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Post by Guest 07.11.13 9:59

@Veritas wrote:
As a UK citizen I continue to be as outraged as any by the preposterous levels of impunity with which these individuals are able to - and encouraged to - operate.  As outraged as I am for justice for MM, I'm more outraged still for the victim "Truth." crimes occur, as do accidents. They are a tragic part of human nature. Being coldly objective, when a child is killed, accidentally or unlawfully, the child dies and those close to it are directly affected, but it is an emotional stretch to say that society suffers in any way. Yet we universally recognise that society suffers with each travesty which goes unpunished, each perversion of the course of justice, because these are the things that keep our society in check. And such a contrivance, connivance and conspiracy occurs which robs us of truth, rapes us in injustice and presumes to disregard us as the most contemptuous ignoramuses, the insult of the crime against one is magnified exponentially through the act of conspiracy.

Holey moley Veritas, that was such a good post I felt compelled to "unlurk" just to congratulate you! I must admit in my more paranoid moments to wondering if there ever was a Madeleine McCann, or if the whole thing is a fabrication by the PTB to see how they can push people's buttons, or perhaps a way of keeping enquiring minds occupied. But I realise that the poor girl was of course very real and such thinking does her memory a terrible disservice.

I think one way of explaining the unprecedented level of support for the Mc's at the time would be that they would come across to the media and the NewLabour government as "one of them" and that might be sufficient to help dig them out of the hole, even if the nature of the hole was fully understood. In doingn so they completely underestimated the reaction of "normal" people. Of course I'm also fully conversant with the many more elaborate theories, any or all of which might indeed turn out to be correct....
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Post by Veritas 07.11.13 10:20

Pennypennypenny, 

I don't have a dog in this hunt so I'm not invested in persuading you. But consider this... 

Imagine turning up at your local river one day to find it swarming with police, politicians, diplomats, giant figures of entertainment industry, shadowy spin doctors, media corporations, intelligence operatives, a couple navy submarines and with air sea rescue cicling overhead with an overflight guard of RAF Tornados. From the crowd you imagine a great disaster of national importance has taken place and as you strain to hear you make out the words being spoken to microphones, or in whispered ears, or to television cameras, and they are all repeating the same word 'catastrophe.' your heart sinks as you get closer and you ask someone stood nearby 'what.... What happened here?' and dread the reply. The answer comes back... 'oh... The vicar's dog fell in the river and got washed away. They' re out searching for the poor mutt.'

When an ordinary event receives wildly disproportionate attention you have to ask 'why?' 

You have to understand that none of those agencies I gave in the metaphor are humanitarian in nature. You can barely get MP' s or celebrities to do regular rounds in places of human suffering. You can't get business leaders to give generously without involving the words 'tax write off' and media organisations are not known for their heart-melting warmth for their fellow humans. Death and misery are generally tools for their furtherance. One paper might run a sad obituary for the dog, another might focus on the good works of the vicar, but outside the local rag the rest will be digging for history of animal neglect or insinuating, Spacey-esque, that there was something mysterious about a vicar taking Fido for a walk in the park at 2am. And that's without even acknowledging the agencies that shouldn't even be involved at all. If you saw the Flying Squad, military snipers, a hostage negotiator and the bomb squad outside your local Aldi would you expect to be told that inside a 79 year old woman had been seen by store detectives pocketing a tin of red salmon? .

How much human nature you have to overlook to settle on your conclusion. How much clear, pointed evidence you have to ignore. How much strange happenstance you have to declare coincidental. Why? For a conclusion that just isn't even credible?
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Post by chillyheat 07.11.13 10:26

@Veritas wrote:Pennypennypenny, 

I don't have a dog in this hunt so I'm not invested in persuading you. But consider this... 

Imagine turning up at your local river one day to find it swarming with police, politicians, diplomats, giant figures of entertainment industry, shadowy spin doctors, media corporations, intelligence operatives, a couple navy submarines and with air sea rescue cicling overhead with an overflight guard of RAF Tornados. From the crowd you imagine a great disaster of national importance has taken place and as you strain to hear you make out the words being spoken to microphones, or in whispered ears, or to television cameras, and they are all repeating the same word 'catastrophe.' your heart sinks as you get closer and you ask someone stood nearby 'what.... What happened here?' and dread the reply. The answer comes back... 'oh... The vicar's dog fell in the river and got washed away. They' re out searching for the poor mutt.'

When an ordinary event receives wildly disproportionate attention you have to ask 'why?' 

You have to understand that none of those agencies I gave in the metaphor are humanitarian in nature. You can barely get MP' s or celebrities to do regular rounds in places of human suffering. You can't get business leaders to give generously without involving the words 'tax write off' and media organisations are not known for their heart-melting warmth for their fellow humans. Death and misery are generally tools for their furtherance. One paper might run a sad obituary for the dog, another might focus on the good works of the vicar, but outside the local rag the rest will be digging for history of animal neglect or insinuating, Spacey-esque, that there was something mysterious about a vicar taking Fido for a walk in the park at 2am. And that's without even acknowledging the agencies that shouldn't even be involved at all. If you saw the Flying Squad, military snipers, a hostage negotiator and the bomb squad outside your local Aldi would you expect to be told that inside a 79 year old woman had been seen by store detectives pocketing a tin of red salmon? .

How much human nature you have to overlook to settle on your conclusion. How much clear, pointed evidence you have to ignore. How much strange happenstance you have to declare coincidental. Why? For a conclusion that just isn't even credible?
Your posts are indeed the dogs bollox. Terrific analysis...clapping
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Post by Mirage 07.11.13 10:28

Welcome Veritas.

What a thought-provoking first post. It certainly encapsulates my journey round a very large garden of paths from which I long to find an exit. Your first paragraph, in particular, has put into words what I feel.

 There are times when I wish I wasn't in thrall to this case. One missing child among so many tragedies in the intervening years? But, as you so eloquently show, it is far more than that. It seems to call up an atavistic need within a few to protect society. I believe that the case threatens the security of us all. Some of us have woken to the realisation that the reality we are being force-fed is not the reality of those charged with the welfare of the people. This is what chills me; that, and the fact that most people I meet are unaware; I would say, asleep. This makes challenging received information in the media an unsettling and life-changing experience.

 But life is serendipitous. The world will turn, and a change of light will throw the pattern of the kaleidoscope into new aspects.
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Post by BRODFB 07.11.13 10:33

@Veritas wrote:Pennypennypenny, 

I don't have a dog in this hunt so I'm not invested in persuading you. But consider this... 

Imagine turning up at your local river one day to find it swarming with police, politicians, diplomats, giant figures of entertainment industry, shadowy spin doctors, media corporations, intelligence operatives, a couple navy submarines and with air sea rescue cicling overhead with an overflight guard of RAF Tornados. From the crowd you imagine a great disaster of national importance has taken place and as you strain to hear you make out the words being spoken to microphones, or in whispered ears, or to television cameras, and they are all repeating the same word 'catastrophe.' your heart sinks as you get closer and you ask someone stood nearby 'what.... What happened here?' and dread the reply. The answer comes back... 'oh... The vicar's dog fell in the river and got washed away. They' re out searching for the poor mutt.'

When an ordinary event receives wildly disproportionate attention you have to ask 'why?' 

You have to understand that none of those agencies I gave in the metaphor are humanitarian in nature. You can barely get MP' s or celebrities to do regular rounds in places of human suffering. You can't get business leaders to give generously without involving the words 'tax write off' and media organisations are not known for their heart-melting warmth for their fellow humans. Death and misery are generally tools for their furtherance. One paper might run a sad obituary for the dog, another might focus on the good works of the vicar, but outside the local rag the rest will be digging for history of animal neglect or insinuating, Spacey-esque, that there was something mysterious about a vicar taking Fido for a walk in the park at 2am. And that's without even acknowledging the agencies that shouldn't even be involved at all. If you saw the Flying Squad, military snipers, a hostage negotiator and the bomb squad outside your local Aldi would you expect to be told that inside a 79 year old woman had been seen by store detectives pocketing a tin of red salmon? .

How much human nature you have to overlook to settle on your conclusion. How much clear, pointed evidence you have to ignore. How much strange happenstance you have to declare coincidental. Why? For a conclusion that just isn't even credible?
 
Look what else happened on May 3rd....

The Labour Party performs poorly in local and regional elections in the UK, with the Scottish National Party winning the most seats in the Scottish Parliament and the Conservatives performing well in English local government elections. (New York Times) (BBC)
...a good day to bury bad news perhaps.

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Post by Veritas 07.11.13 10:42

Clay, thanks, you're very kind. 

AFAIAC any hypothesis by which the massive instant swell of support and simultaneous manipulation is the result of goodwill, superficial political cameraderie, gullibility, human kindness is nothing more than red herring. 

Those institutions and agencies are amoral and self-serving. They don't get out of bed without an angle, let alone deployed across the continent, tied up for months and years, bleeding resources and pushing credibility. They don't even work in harmony without a serious high-level orchestration by party or parties who have something extremely serious to gain or something extremely serious to lose. In the light of numerous examples where both the most innocent and insidious interpretations of similar cases have been played out within and without the UK, no case has disappeared beneath the mountain of interference, been given the benefit of the doubt, now afforded the assistance of this one. Why? Why this one, when the evidence points to so many having so much to lose by their association and support with this case. When the evidence says otherwise, why are either so many so blindly assured of the veracity of their position, or so invested in perverting justice? Why this case?
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Post by worriedmum 07.11.13 10:46

@noddy100 wrote:One thing that puzzles me is how good the photo fit is if you were wanting to implicate gerry
It is just so like him I have seen many over the years and they only give a vague overall sense of the person as
in colour distinguishing features etc 
If this was produced by the Smiths description could Oakley have 'enhanced' it as along with their other findings
they just knew what the real story is And why would they do this when they knew for sure they would stop getting paid?
-yes noddy, to get back to the OP, I am wondering why the Sunday Times have not pursued this element of their initial news report:
''The report also raised questions about “anomalies” in the statements given by the McCanns and their friends.The relationship between the fund and Oakley was already souring by the time the report was submitted — and its findings could only have made matters worse.
As well as questioning parts of the McCanns’ evidence, it contained sensitive information about Madeleine’s sleeping patterns and raised the highly sensitive possibility that she could have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself from one of two unsecured doors.''


The e-fits story was explosive. But why have we had no further details about the rest of the report?
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Post by noddy100 07.11.13 10:49

@worriedmum wrote:
@noddy100 wrote:One thing that puzzles me is how good the photo fit is if you were wanting to implicate gerry
It is just so like him I have seen many over the years and they only give a vague overall sense of the person as
in colour distinguishing features etc 
If this was produced by the Smiths description could Oakley have 'enhanced' it as along with their other findings
they just knew what the real story is And why would they do this when they knew for sure they would stop getting paid?
-yes noddy, to get back to the OP, I am wondering why the Sunday Times have not pursued this element of their initial news report:
''The report also raised questions about “anomalies” in the statements given by the McCanns and their friends.The relationship between the fund and Oakley was already souring by the time the report was submitted — and its findings could only have made matters worse.
As well as questioning parts of the McCanns’ evidence, it contained sensitive information about Madeleine’s sleeping patterns and raised the highly sensitive possibility that she could have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself from one of two unsecured doors.''


The e-fits story was explosive. But why have we had no further details about the rest of the report?
exactly The ST said they had seen it so why the silence?
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Post by Veritas 07.11.13 10:51

BRODFB

Convenient, perhaps. But unrelated. Neither SY nor the MI's nor any in the FCO or the FO or the HO save for a few inconsequential figureheads change with the political colours. There's barely a sheet of paper's worth of difference between the political parties anyway. The wealth involved in this tells me that the impetus came, not from political allegiance but from a much more insidious conspirance. If this were a 'Labour' thing do you really think the same Cameronesque allegiance switching media elites like Murdoch wouldn't have used this case to gun the Blairite or Brownite governments down? These players are apolitical, always looking at bigger agendas. The question is why and how this case even appears on the radar of their schemes.
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Post by chillyheat 07.11.13 10:57

@worriedmum wrote:
@noddy100 wrote:One thing that puzzles me is how good the photo fit is if you were wanting to implicate gerry
It is just so like him I have seen many over the years and they only give a vague overall sense of the person as
in colour distinguishing features etc 
If this was produced by the Smiths description could Oakley have 'enhanced' it as along with their other findings
they just knew what the real story is And why would they do this when they knew for sure they would stop getting paid?
-yes noddy, to get back to the OP, I am wondering why the Sunday Times have not pursued this element of their initial news report:
''The report also raised questions about “anomalies” in the statements given by the McCanns and their friends.The relationship between the fund and Oakley was already souring by the time the report was submitted — and its findings could only have made matters worse.
As well as questioning parts of the McCanns’ evidence, it contained sensitive information about Madeleine’s sleeping patterns and raised the highly sensitive possibility that she could have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself from one of two unsecured doors.''


The e-fits story was explosive. But why have we had no further details about the rest of the report?
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4530-new-photo-clue-to-madeleine-mccann-case
Very significant...IMO
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Post by DonNewbery 07.11.13 11:00

@Mirage wrote:Welcome Veritas.

What a thought-provoking first post. It certainly encapsulates my journey round a very large garden of paths from which I long to find an exit. Your first paragraph, in particular, has put into words what I feel.

 There are times when I wish I wasn't in thrall to this case. One missing child among so many tragedies in the intervening years? But, as you so eloquently show, it is far more than that. It seems to call up an atavistic need within a few to protect society. I believe that the case threatens the security of us all. Some of us have woken to the realisation that the reality we are being force-fed is not the reality of those charged with the welfare of the people. This is what chills me; that, and the fact that most people I meet are unaware; I would say, asleep. This makes challenging received information in the media an unsettling and life-changing experience.

 But life is serendipitous. The world will turn, and a change of light will throw the pattern of the kaleidoscope into new aspects.
Thank you, Mirage, for your very fine post too, which summarises my feelings exactly.
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Post by worriedmum 07.11.13 11:04

@ChillyHeat wrote:
@worriedmum wrote:
@noddy100 wrote:One thing that puzzles me is how good the photo fit is if you were wanting to implicate gerry
It is just so like him I have seen many over the years and they only give a vague overall sense of the person as
in colour distinguishing features etc 
If this was produced by the Smiths description could Oakley have 'enhanced' it as along with their other findings
they just knew what the real story is And why would they do this when they knew for sure they would stop getting paid?
-yes noddy, to get back to the OP, I am wondering why the Sunday Times have not pursued this element of their initial news report:
''The report also raised questions about “anomalies” in the statements given by the McCanns and their friends.The relationship between the fund and Oakley was already souring by the time the report was submitted — and its findings could only have made matters worse.
As well as questioning parts of the McCanns’ evidence, it contained sensitive information about Madeleine’s sleeping patterns and raised the highly sensitive possibility that she could have died in an accident after leaving the apartment herself from one of two unsecured doors.''


The e-fits story was explosive. But why have we had no further details about the rest of the report?
https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4530-new-photo-clue-to-madeleine-mccann-case
Very significant...IMO
Significant or worrying?
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Post by BRODFB 07.11.13 11:04

@Veritas wrote:BRODFB

Convenient, perhaps. But unrelated. Neither SY nor the MI's nor any in the FCO or the FO or the HO save for a few inconsequential figureheads change with the political colours. There's barely a sheet of paper's worth of difference between the political parties anyway. The wealth involved in this tells me that the impetus came, not from political allegiance but from a much more insidious conspirance. If this were a 'Labour' thing do you really think the same Cameronesque allegiance switching media elites like Murdoch wouldn't have used this case to gun the Blairite or Brownite governments down? These players are apolitical, always looking at bigger agendas. The question is why and how this case even appears on the radar of their schemes.
I was thinking more of the opportunity of associating the government of the day with what would appear to be a cause with mass public support to deflect attention away from unpopularity issues. Whatever they say politics is a popularity contest.

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Post by Guest 07.11.13 11:09

All in my own opinion of course...
There can be a tendency to get bogged down in the little details trying to make sense of all the facts to fit in with one grand final scenario.
At times like these for me it is important to go back and take the bare bones of what is fact and eliminate the pure speculation. It only causes frustration and a headache otherwise.
I believe if something doesn't seem to fit in the simple scenario, then thats because it probably isn't meant to.

We know that the relationship between mother and daughter was already strained before the holiday.
We know by her own words that killing her children is something she has thought about, and written about. A thought completely aberrant from a mother whatever the context.
We know Maddie had bruises. We know KM had bruises.
We know there were problems between GM and KM.
We know that these parents left their children alone night after night knowing they were distressed. 
We know the evidence of the dogs. 5A, car, clothes, cuddle cat.
(Children bounce. I cannot imagine how a child falling down the back of a sofa would be dead within minutes. Even with a substantial skull fracture, it takes time. And there would be a lot of blood. A neck fracture, most unlikely given the forces involved. She would have slipped over. And why be looking for her parents out of that window and not the patio doors? Were there not blinds?
But the dogs found something there and most likely this was a hiding place for an already deceased Maddie at some point in the preceding few days.) 
We know the T9 statements are a joke.
How did they all sit down to dinner knowing Maddie was dead?
Some knew and some didn't. Those that did had had enough time to to adapt to this fact to be able to put on a performance of sorts. They had time to rehearse between them how the evening was to played out. Not enough to be word perfect however. Which is seen in the inconsistencies of the statements.
Some so blatant that you it leaves you in shock. By what door did you enter  (GM)?  Curtains open, curtains closed? Everything about DPs early evening visit. etc. etc.
Again not everyone being in the loop leads to more inconsistencies. 
We know the usual routine for family MC was different that day.
We know there was a delay in contacting the police.
We know the shutters were not forced. We know the only prints on the window were KMs. 
We know Maddies bed did not look slept in. We know the other bed did.
We know the pink blanket was there.
We know ROB was washing sheets. We know KM was washing pyjamas that day.
We know Tannerman was not ever a viable abductor.
We know that the MCs completely dismissed any other possible scenario.
We know that instead of searching in the crucial first hours that timelines were written out.
We know the GNR dogs were not given Maddies clothes of that day to scent.
We know that KM did not look for her daughter. We know that GM actually went to sleep for an hour that night. (c**t).
We know that phone evidence was tampered with.
We know they tried to frame another person (Murat), and the ones that did this are the ones who were most likely in the loop.


We know that the press and embassy officials were called within minutes.
We know that the MCs would be certain of conviction under Portuguese law, even if it had been an accident or abduction…. (and also anyone else who left their children alone) 
Section 138
Exposure or Abandonment
1. Whoever endangers the life of another person :
a) exposing him/her in a place that subjects him/her to a situation from which he/she cannot defend himself/herself on his/her own : or
b) abandoning him/her, defenceless, whenever the perpetrator had the duty to watch, keep vigilance over or assist him/her, shall be punished with imprisonment from 1 up to 5 years.
2. If the fact is committed by an ascendant, a descendant, an adoptive parent or an adopter of the victim, the perpetrator shall be punished with imprisonment from 2 up to 5 years.
3. If the fact results in :
a) a serious assault on physical integrity, the perpetrator shall be punished with imprisonment from 2 up to 8 years.
b) death, the perpetrator shall be punished with imprisonment from 3 up to 10 years.
We know Kate McCann refused to answer 48 questions.
We know they fled Portugal when the were made arguidos. 
We know that they spent more money in pursuit of those that dare challenge them than they ever did in looking for their daughter.

So when trying to decide on the accuracy of the Smiths efits or till receipts, or trying to decipher a convoluted international conspiracy I try not to lose sight of what is known fact, because thats what the MCs want you to do.
All the MCs have done since that day has been manipulation and concealment of the truth. From the "fund" to the "beak" and the attemepted destruction of anyone who dares to confront them. 
These people are your average, non- highflying medics. They don't have big strings to pull, leading all the way to Downing street.

I have no doubt that certain public officials were drawn into this by their own narcissistic needs, or by the narcissistic charm of GM. And once in, how do they get back out again? Especially if you are dependant on votes for your survival. Some people when they find themselves in a hole, just keep digging.
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Post by jim nasium 07.11.13 11:21

Welcome Veritas,

A great and eloquent post and yes, I thoroughly agree that what has made this case compelling to so many, is that it is not only Madeleine that is the victim, because sadly children die in dreadful circumstances all the time, but it is the fact that to date, 'truth' also has also been the victim. 
 
In my opinion it has all to do with, quite simply - reputation management of the NHS. There were six NHS doctors involved in an incident abroad and at the very least, two of them were responsible of neglect in most peoples opinion, of their very young children.  Tony Blair was PM at the time with just a short while left before he handed over to Brown and we know all about Blair and his wish for a 'Legacy'!  New Labour had ploughed £billions into the NHS and it was 'Safe in their Hands'. Well was it? What would the public's perception be, if it was found out that two doctors were guilty of covering up their daughter's death - perhaps because of over-sedation and that they had been assisted in their conspiracy by other NHS doctor's within this group.  Their would be public outrage and rightly so and trust would be greatly diminished. The reputation of our world-envied NHS would be in jeopardy.  I think Brown actually said it was a matter of 'National Security'.

So the powers that be had to set in motion very swiftly an action plan of damage limitation and reputation management, not on behalf of the McCann's - but on behalf of the NHS - for the 'greater good'!

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Post by noddy100 07.11.13 11:37

I have often thought the significance of sedation was not so much overdose as these 2 are medics with experience but just that if she had got up and wandered out the door any sedation makes you a bit unsteady and light headed and she could have fallen down those few steps into the flowerbeds. Thats where I think she was found initially by GN or RO
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Post by Guest 07.11.13 11:41

@noddy100 wrote:I have often thought the significance of sedation was not so much overdose as these 2 are medics with experience but just that if she had got up and wandered out the door any sedation makes you a bit unsteady and light headed and she could have fallen down those few steps into the flowerbeds. Thats where I think she was found initially by GN or RO
I've always felt that the slamming door had great significance, for some reason. Maybe she got hit by/trapped in the door?
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Post by noddy100 07.11.13 11:49

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@noddy100 wrote:I have often thought the significance of sedation was not so much overdose as these 2 are medics with experience but just that if she had got up and wandered out the door any sedation makes you a bit unsteady and light headed and she could have fallen down those few steps into the flowerbeds. Thats where I think she was found initially by GN or RO
I've always felt that the slamming door had great significance, for some reason. Maybe she got hit by/trapped in the door?
Or she wandered out of the bedroom looking for them and it slammed behind her scaring her amd making her go out to find them
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Post by RIPM 07.11.13 14:06

Children bounce. I cannot imagine how a child falling down the back of a sofa would be dead within minutes. Even with a substantial skull fracture, it takes time. And there would be a lot of blood. A neck fracture, most unlikely given the forces involved.
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Sorry to correct you but you are doing what you say we should not do, that is embellish facts.

Having attended many accidents and suicides, it is a ridiculous thing to say, children bounce.

There would be a lot of blood.........you have obviously not attended many accident scenes.  Sometimes there is a lot, sometimes there is very little or none

You cannot imagine that a child falling behind the back of a sofa would be dead in minutes....... but it does happen.
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Post by ultimaThule 07.11.13 14:16

Blunt force trauma can cause immediate death with little or no loss of blood.
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