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What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

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What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Research_Reader on 29.10.13 10:25

Kate claims that when she approached the children's bedroom the door slammed (as though there was a change in air pressure) and then the curtains were billowing.

Wouldn't this have suggested that the window had, perhaps, only just been opened? And therefore the 'abductor' had only just jumped out the window? And therefore they were still VERY close by?

Wouldn't your natural first instinct response have been to quickly run outside and look for them? And if you couldn't see them to have shouted at the top of your lungs "Someone HELP my child has been taken."? Which would have at least increased the chances that someone nearby would have been alerted to the sight of the abductor? 

But beyond that question, I also honestly wonder what the best course of action is when one finds a toddler missing and you are sure that they are not just hiding under the bed etc? It seems to me that the first minutes, and maybe hour or two are of VITAL importance, and after that the probability of being able to do anything effective to find them alive drops off a cliff. 

So what is the best emergency plan for parents to launch into? I would think something like:

(1) Call the police asap and push them to act to seal off roads etc
(2) If you are lucky enough to have friends/family around, to get them to immediately spread out in the local area to search
(3) Immediately speak to all people in the local area to potentially obtain fresh witness observations
(4) Jot down - while they are fresh - any memories of the moments around the time when you think the abduction must have taken place: sounds (even in the distance), smells, positions of people in the area, etc.

Anything else?
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Sietah on 29.10.13 10:32

Research_Reader wrote:It seems to me that the first minutes, and maybe hour or two are of VITAL importance
GM agrees with you
Friday 11 April 2008  "The key time is the first few hours, that's the critical period," said Mr McCann.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/apr/11/madeleinemccann.eu

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Woofer on 29.10.13 10:36

Good question.

First thing I would do would be to check twins then go out into the carpark and shout/scream the child`s name. Get on mobile to alert friends at Tapas. Go up and down roads shouting.

The friends would then alert OC management and get reception to phone police immediately.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 10:36

Research_Reader wrote:Kate claims that when she approached the children's bedroom the door slammed (as though there was a change in air pressure) and then the curtains were billowing.

Wouldn't this have suggested that the window had, perhaps, only just been opened? And therefore the 'abductor' had only just jumped out the window? And therefore they were still VERY close by?

Wouldn't your natural first instinct response have been to quickly run outside and look for them? And if you couldn't see them to have shouted at the top of your lungs "Someone HELP my child has been taken."? Which would have at least increased the chances that someone nearby would have been alerted to the sight of the abductor? 

But beyond that question, I also honestly wonder what the best course of action is when one finds a toddler missing and you are sure that they are not just hiding under the bed etc? It seems to me that the first minutes, and maybe hour or two are of VITAL importance, and after that the probability of being able to do anything effective to find them alive drops off a cliff. 

So what is the best emergency plan for parents to launch into? I would think something like:

(1) Call the police asap and push them to act to seal off roads etc
(2) If you are lucky enough to have friends/family around, to get them to immediately spread out in the local area to search
(3) Immediately speak to all people in the local area to potentially obtain fresh witness observations
(4) Jot down - while they are fresh - any memories of the moments around the time when you think the abduction must have taken place: sounds (even in the distance), smells, positions of people in the area, etc.

Anything else?
(2) did actually happen according to the Tapas bar staff statements, even Gerry was running around searching.  He was running in the direction of the childrens' play area, which seems like a logical place to look if your child has wandered off - go to the places your child knows best - but not logical at all if you've assumed an abduction.

I'm convinced that a genuine search for a missing child happened between 9.30 and 9.45.  But after a while Kate screamed at something, and I think things changed at this point.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Research_Reader on 29.10.13 10:42

Sockpuppet wrote:
But after a while Kate screamed at something, and I think things changed at this point.
Interesting, I hadn't heard that, do you have a link?

BTW, I'm not so much saying that the McCanns/T7 didn't search at all, I'm making two separate points: (1) The door/slamming and curtain billowing would have suggested to me that the window had RECENTLY been opened and therefore I would have wanted to look/run/shout outside ASAP (perhaps after grabbing the twins, one in each arm) (2) What is the best course of action for anyone to take if they find a toddler missing from their bed?
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Cerinthe on 29.10.13 10:43

They should have searched.

I already started a thread called "If they'd searched" further down.  Given that the Smith sighting of the man with a child was at about 10pm, and Madeleine was spotted missing at 10pm, a few men running through the streets of Praia might easily have tracked him down and stopped the abduction.  If he was an abductor and not someone they knew that is.   

In the witness statements they say the search was limited to the Ocean Club - this is despite the fact that Kate "knew" immediately it was an abductor.  The obvious thing to do would be to scour the streets looking for the man and the child, whilst someone stayed back to look after the children and wait for the police. 

So they missed the one opportunity of saving Madeleine, by hanging back and writing out timelines on her bookcover.  

It wasn't their job to act as amateur detectives starting an investigation, it was their job to search before the police got there, and they didn't do it.   It's a failure of care at the same level as leaving the children in the apartment alone whilst they went out drinking.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Research_Reader on 29.10.13 10:47

I think I would also have immediately got someone to speak to the woman in the apartment above to see if she saw/heard anything out of the windows. I'm sure there are little details that people can remember for a few minutes that quickly fade.
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 10:47

Research_Reader wrote:
Sockpuppet wrote:
But after a while Kate screamed at something, and I think things changed at this point.
Interesting, I hadn't heard that, do you have a link?

BTW, I'm not so much saying that the McCanns/T7 didn't search at all, I'm making two separate points: (1) The door/slamming and curtain billowing would have suggested to me that the window had RECENTLY been opened and therefore I would have wanted to look/run/shout outside ASAP (perhaps after grabbing the twins, one in each arm) (2) What is the best course of action for anyone to take if they find a toddler missing from their bed?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JERONIMO-SALCEDAS.htm

'I ran out of the Tapas and noticed that some of the childcare works of the Mark Warner had begun to arrive. At the point I left the Tapas I heard a scream from a woman I did not know. I do not know who screamed, but I had never heard a similar cry. I cannot even describe it but thought it had come from the child's mother.'

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Research_Reader on 29.10.13 10:50

But might not that have been the scream when she initially ran out to the T7? Or is it too unlikely that the times were that muddled up? Do we definitely think that this scream marked the end of the T7 searches?

(BTW, thanks SockPuppet. The mastery of the evidence that some of you have on this forum is truly impressive)
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Sockpuppet on 29.10.13 10:55

Research_Reader wrote:But might not that have been the scream when she initially ran out to the T7? Or is it too unlikely that the times were that muddled up? Do we definitely think that this scream marked the end of the T7 searches?

(BTW, thanks SockPuppet. The mastery of the evidence that some of you have on this forum is truly impressive)
Salcedas seems quite certain that the order is this:

- sees DW alone at table, she tells him that a child has disappeared
- immediately sees Gerry running to the childrens' play area to look for missing child, speaks to Gerry
- goes to OC entrance, where Mark Warner staff are gathering
- hears scream that he attributes to Kate

In fact, none of the Tapas bar staff mention Kate returning to the Tapas to give the alert.

(And thanks Research_Reader, in my opinion evidence is all important) :)

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Cerinthe on 29.10.13 10:56

What do you do when anything you value goes missing?

You search for it, don't you?  If it's a living being, either a child or an animal, you don't wait around because you want to make sure they are protected from harm. 

The other question would be what don't you do.  Well you don't mill around writing out timelines, or abusing the neighbours or creating confusion until the police get there.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Research_Reader on 29.10.13 10:59

Interesting SockPuppet. The staff gathering in the OC entrance seems important as thats a potentially accurate way of timing the sequence of events. 

Also is it not slightly strange that DW lingered at the table? Why wouldn't you go and help?
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Research_Reader on 29.10.13 11:01

Cerinthe wrote:What do you do when anything you value goes missing?
I've been known to not stop searching late into the night even when I've lost an item like a passport, important piece of paperwork etc. Let alone a small child!
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Cerinthe on 29.10.13 11:13

Research_Reader wrote:
Cerinthe wrote:What do you do when anything you value goes missing?
I've been known to not stop searching late into the night even when I've lost an item like a passport, important piece of paperwork etc. Let alone a small child!
Exactly.  You're compelled to search, it's not really a choice.  And you don't stop until you find it, or it appears that its going to be impossible to discover where it is. 

The only reason you wouldn't search is if you knew where what you lost was, or if you knew it was impossible to find because it had been destroyed for example. 

The other issue is that the motivation to search wouldn't just be to find but to PROTECT.  Madeleine was a little girl taken by supposedly a very bad man, a member of a gang of paedophiles according to Gerry.  Yet they didn't immediately look through the streets for him, or down on the beach for a waiting boat perhaps.   It doesn't add up. 

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Okeydokey on 30.10.13 0:44

Research_Reader wrote:Kate claims that when she approached the children's bedroom the door slammed (as though there was a change in air pressure) and then the curtains were billowing.

Wouldn't this have suggested that the window had, perhaps, only just been opened? And therefore the 'abductor' had only just jumped out the window? And therefore they were still VERY close by?

Wouldn't your natural first instinct response have been to quickly run outside and look for them? And if you couldn't see them to have shouted at the top of your lungs "Someone HELP my child has been taken."? Which would have at least increased the chances that someone nearby would have been alerted to the sight of the abductor? 

But beyond that question, I also honestly wonder what the best course of action is when one finds a toddler missing and you are sure that they are not just hiding under the bed etc? It seems to me that the first minutes, and maybe hour or two are of VITAL importance, and after that the probability of being able to do anything effective to find them alive drops off a cliff. 

So what is the best emergency plan for parents to launch into? I would think something like:

(1) Call the police asap and push them to act to seal off roads etc
(2) If you are lucky enough to have friends/family around, to get them to immediately spread out in the local area to search
(3) Immediately speak to all people in the local area to potentially obtain fresh witness observations
(4) Jot down - while they are fresh - any memories of the moments around the time when you think the abduction must have taken place: sounds (even in the distance), smells, positions of people in the area, etc.

Anything else?
A.  These are intelligent professional people. They would have realised the importance of thinking clearly about where Madeleine could be and not ignoring the chance that she had wandered off. There seems to be no sense of any real organisation to their searching e.g. let's go to the nursery...down to the beach...bus station...

B.  Jane Tanner claimed to have seen the abduction and told other members of the Tapas 9 (though not Kate for several hours it seems IIRC).  She did this immediately on being told of the child's disappearance, so around 10pm is the claim. Accordingly why did the McCanns and friends not organise a search in that direction immediately - banging on vans, looking in ditches and abandoned houses calling out...

C.  Would it not be natural to try and find someone with a car, assuming you don't have one yourself in your group of friends, and use that to tour the area looking for your daughter?

D.  Being professionals with a medical background they would understand the importance of forensic evidence and try and seal off the rooms from too many intrusions.

E.  GMcC as someone else observed would surely want to speak to JW immediately.

I don't really agree with your 4.  The immediate need is to search.  Your child might have fallen into or been tossed into a ditch or a pool...even if she's been abducted you don't know if the abductor has abandoned her, so you have to search everywhere you can.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Curioser on 31.10.13 23:57

SockPuppet, that's a great find there from Jeronimo the waiter. I'm sure I've read that rogatory before but I don't remember putting any weight on the scream. I reckon that scream is important. Back to the theory!

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Curioser on 01.11.13 0:07

For me the point is that they DID search. Gerry ran down to the play area and frantically looked around and enlisted the help of Jeronimo to get people to help and spread the word. 

Then the scream.

Then they stopped looking.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by suzyjohnson on 01.11.13 0:21

Research_Reader wrote:I think I would also have immediately got someone to speak to the woman in the apartment above to see if she saw/heard anything out of the windows. I'm sure there are little details that people can remember for a few minutes that quickly fade.
Yes I think so too, especially as Mrs Fenn was outside on the balcony and spoke to the McCanns. IIRC she asked what was going on and GM replied, a child's gone missing.

I also think that one of the first things I would do, within minutes, (especially if I were on a doctor's wage, a bit more difficult if you didn't have any money) would be to hire a taxi or two to search the surrounding area by car

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by Guest on 01.11.13 10:21

Okeydokey wrote:
Research_Reader wrote:Kate claims that when she approached the children's bedroom the door slammed (as though there was a change in air pressure) and then the curtains were billowing.

Wouldn't this have suggested that the window had, perhaps, only just been opened? And therefore the 'abductor' had only just jumped out the window? And therefore they were still VERY close by?

Wouldn't your natural first instinct response have been to quickly run outside and look for them? And if you couldn't see them to have shouted at the top of your lungs "Someone HELP my child has been taken."? Which would have at least increased the chances that someone nearby would have been alerted to the sight of the abductor? 

But beyond that question, I also honestly wonder what the best course of action is when one finds a toddler missing and you are sure that they are not just hiding under the bed etc? It seems to me that the first minutes, and maybe hour or two are of VITAL importance, and after that the probability of being able to do anything effective to find them alive drops off a cliff. 

So what is the best emergency plan for parents to launch into? I would think something like:

(1) Call the police asap and push them to act to seal off roads etc
(2) If you are lucky enough to have friends/family around, to get them to immediately spread out in the local area to search
(3) Immediately speak to all people in the local area to potentially obtain fresh witness observations
(4) Jot down - while they are fresh - any memories of the moments around the time when you think the abduction must have taken place: sounds (even in the distance), smells, positions of people in the area, etc.

Anything else?
A.  These are intelligent professional people. They would have realised the importance of thinking clearly about where Madeleine could be and not ignoring the chance that she had wandered off. There seems to be no sense of any real organisation to their searching e.g. let's go to the nursery...down to the beach...bus station...

B.  Jane Tanner claimed to have seen the abduction and told other members of the Tapas 9 (though not Kate for several hours it seems IIRC).  She did this immediately on being told of the child's disappearance, so around 10pm is the claim. Accordingly why did the McCanns and friends not organise a search in that direction immediately - banging on vans, looking in ditches and abandoned houses calling out...

C.  Would it not be natural to try and find someone with a car, assuming you don't have one yourself in your group of friends, and use that to tour the area looking for your daughter?

D.  Being professionals with a medical background they would understand the importance of forensic evidence and try and seal off the rooms from too many intrusions.

E.  GMcC as someone else observed would surely want to speak to JW immediately.

I don't really agree with your 4.  The immediate need is to search.  Your child might have fallen into or been tossed into a ditch or a pool...even if she's been abducted you don't know if the abductor has abandoned her, so you have to search everywhere you can.
After -allegedly- 14 bottles of wine between them in less than an hour and a half, not counting what they downed between their visit to the beach (and on the beach!) and their entrances at the Tapas, perhaps they were unable to think straight?

The McCs have admitted having a bottle at their appartment. As doctors seeing a liver cirrhosis say: for every glass admitted, count 2-3. So there.
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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by thetruthbeknown on 01.11.13 21:37

In most interviews KM says she looked, saw MM missing then double looked (maybe 20-30 seconds) then 'knew' that MM had been taken..she also puts this feeling of knowing 'abduction' down to the 'way things had been left' (I can only assume in the apartment?) Im still quite early into reviewing articles/interviews after reading statements..But feel that is important. To be honest id expect an initial feeling would be child wandering? Within that 20-30 seconds?? Especially if having been left alone? As a child waking disorientated, in a strange bed (away from home) maybe looking for mum and dad? Woman above said on 1st May MM had been heard calling 'daddy, daddy' which makes me think a childs initial reaction on waking is to call/look for mum or dad?? Its something I would presume with mine at first.

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Re: What SHOULD the parents have done if this was an abduction?

Post by thetruthbeknown on 01.11.13 21:48

to add to the above..Its hard to theorise on that part, of what we would think on finding our 3 year old missing having been left alone in an apartment on holiday with her twin 2 year old siblings..to be honest..Most of us can only guess because it just wouldnt happen to us, not even before the age of 10 would i have been out of 'hearing crying' distance of my children on holiday..and I think most would be the same :/

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