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Steps and baby gate

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by tigger on 29.10.13 5:56

Right. A few points about this meeting. 

Gerry - this is all retrospectively - made the meeting later and longer than it was according to JW. 

Gerry - insisted the meeting was on the other side of the street. Unlikely because he would simply have waved at him. 

So both time and place are sensitive. 

It was later.
It was longer. 
It wasn't  near either  the gate or the steps. 

Had he been about to jemmy the shutters?. 

It was also cold enough to wear a fleece. Imo the meeting was next to the gate, at about 8.55 and lasted about 1 minute. 

Yes, Gerboy is an opportunist. JW also had to be reminded of this meeting within hours. About 1.00 am this was done.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 7:20

But how long after death will a body emit the scent?

No one seems to know how  long a body has to be dead to give a reaction to the dog and it may be specific to the sensitivity of the particular dog being used. All I've seen is very soon after death but precise times are not determinable ( taken from Martin Grimes report on McCann files )  If you think about it, how would you check? I would think you would have to have a forensic team hanging a round some ones death bed, and have written permissions from both the person about to die and their next of kin and medical staff. Even if it was done it would be quite controversal and you may need to repeat it a number of times

Just found a post on another thread on this forum suggesting the "smell of death" my start to occur as organs in the body start to fail and emit an odour even before death. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html


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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 7:40

I've never understood Eddies indication behind the couch or the flower bed...


In 2000, freelance dog handler Mick Swindells and his Border collie Shep, a trained human cadaver dog, were called to a 15-acre field near Nottingham to help locate the suspected grave of a murder victim. Shep signalled in one spot and the surrounding area was quickly dug, but nothing was found. Later that day, police returned with an informant, who identified the grave. Shep had been out by a metre.
It transpired that, in digging the grave, the murderer had put his spade through a field drain, causing volatile compounds from the decomposing cadaver to enter the drain. About a metre downhill of the cadaver, the drain was broken, preventing those compounds from dispersing further. The drain had, in effect, separated the body from its scent, and Shep had signalled the dislodged source of that scent – the breakage in the drain.
http://www.biologycorner.com/anatomy/senses/crimedogs.html

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by aquila on 29.10.13 7:54

@DurhamGuy1967, it's clear you have serious doubts about the findings of the cadaver dogs as you've posted the same things in two threads.

If you do a search on the forum you will find topics devoted to the dogs and it will be interesting for you to place your posts on there for a detailed debate on your concerns - after all it's an important subject in its own right.
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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by tigger on 29.10.13 8:10

The result of the CSI dogs' searches is as follows: 

13 alerts in property rented by the McCanns and items and clothing belonging to them as well as in their hire car. 

Other alerts, including Murat'shouse and garden. Other apartments in OC:0 . That is: zero. 

Success rate of said dogs in all cases where they have  been deployed:  100%. 
So perhaps we should be looking at the evidence relevant to this case. 

TM reactions:
No denial of the FFS findings but explanations ranging from soiled pyjamas, dirty nappies and rotting meat. 
Later  explanations (e.g. Second Swedish interview) that of course Maddie's DNA was in the boot of the car as their own DNA was there it was logical that Maddie's DNA was present. 
Neither of them can have been awake at doctor school when genetics were taught. Worrying.  pray2 

I don't understand why  the last story on the border collie is relevant. The grave was found. Imo the scent may have been stronger where it was trapped. . The corpse would still emit cadaver odour in the spot where it was buried.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by aquila on 29.10.13 8:13

@tigger - some folk just don't like dose darned dogs do dey!big grin
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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 9:20

Just to clarify I think the dogs are right , I question that it takes as long as 90mins before the body produces the scent the dogs can find. I think it could be much faster

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 12:04

DurhamGuy1967 wrote:Just to clarify I think the dogs are right , I question that it takes as long as 90mins before the body produces the scent the dogs can find. I think it could be much faster
This could explain the scent in the garden by the bottom of the steps, which is why I mention it in this thread.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by ultimaThule on 29.10.13 12:25

DurhamGuy1967 wrote:Just to clarify I think the dogs are right , I question that it takes as long as 90mins before the body produces the scent the dogs can find. I think it could be much faster
Cadaverine is the odour of putrefaction which does not develop until 1.5-2 hours after death.

Depending on ambient temperature, cadaverine may not be detectable to the human nose until some 24 hours after death.
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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by ultimaThule on 29.10.13 13:04

DurhamGuy1967 wrote:But how long after death will a body emit the scent?

No one seems to know how  long a body has to be dead to give a reaction to the dog and it may be specific to the sensitivity of the particular dog being used. All I've seen is very soon after death but precise times are not determinable ( taken from Martin Grimes report on McCann files )  If you think about it, how would you check? I would think you would have to have a forensic team hanging a round some ones death bed, and have written permissions from both the person about to die and their next of kin and medical staff. Even if it was done it would be quite controversal and you may need to repeat it a number of times

Just found a post on another thread on this forum suggesting the "smell of death" my start to occur as organs in the body start to fail and emit an odour even before death. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html


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You appear to have overlooked the generousity of those who donate their bodies to medical science after death to aid biological. physiological, and pathological research, DG.  

Regardless of what anyone may think, in a court of law any theory proposed as to time of death will be tested against current scientific knowledge which, at the time of writing, is that in the case of an otherwise healthy adult/child it takes some 1.5-2hrs after the last breath has been taken for cadaverine to be detectable by dogs.

With regard to the alleged scent in the garden, as Eddie the cadaver dog did not alert by barking there is no evidence that it existed, albeit I am prepared to believe a body was in that location for a brief period of time.
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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by pulch on 29.10.13 13:30

I see what you were saying Durham. Its the blood behind the sofa that confuses me. How could a lot of blood be caused by a fall. Its still the steps to me :-)

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 13:36

pulch wrote:I see what you were saying Durham. Its the blood behind the sofa that confuses me. How could a lot of blood be caused by a fall. Its still the steps to me :-)
If you fell and hit your head it could easily produce blood. Not sure why there would need to be a lot of blood.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 13:41

ultimaThule wrote:
DurhamGuy1967 wrote:But how long after death will a body emit the scent?

No one seems to know how  long a body has to be dead to give a reaction to the dog and it may be specific to the sensitivity of the particular dog being used. All I've seen is very soon after death but precise times are not determinable ( taken from Martin Grimes report on McCann files )  If you think about it, how would you check? I would think you would have to have a forensic team hanging a round some ones death bed, and have written permissions from both the person about to die and their next of kin and medical staff. Even if it was done it would be quite controversal and you may need to repeat it a number of times

Just found a post on another thread on this forum suggesting the "smell of death" my start to occur as organs in the body start to fail and emit an odour even before death. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html


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You appear to have overlooked the generousity of those who donate their bodies to medical science after death to aid biological. physiological, and pathological research, DG.  

Regardless of what anyone may think, in a court of law any theory proposed as to time of death will be tested against current scientific knowledge which, at the time of writing, is that in the case of an otherwise healthy adult/child it takes some 1.5-2hrs after the last breath has been taken for cadaverine to be detectable by dogs.

With regard to the alleged scent in the garden, as Eddie the cadaver dog did not alert by barking there is no evidence that it existed, albeit I am prepared to believe a body was in that location for a brief period of time.
Hi, what is your source for the 1.5 to 2 hours ? I can't find one. Martin Grimes does say very soon after death, and ...it can not be verified, implying very quickly after death

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by ultimaThule on 29.10.13 13:47

pulch wrote:I see what you were saying Durham. Its the blood behind the sofa that confuses me. How could a lot of blood be caused by a fall. Its still the steps to me :-)
Even a fairly minor cut to the head can produce a lot of blood as can a child's head being smashed against a wall, floor, or other hard surface. 

What is of interest to me is that, although blood spatter was found on the wall and on the curtains behind the sofa, the sofa itself does not appear to have been spattered despite, in the photos I've seen of the living room of 5A,  the back of it appearing to be within 12" or so of the wall. 

I seem to recall reading that either GM or KM said they had pushed the sofa up to the wall because Madeleine repeatedly dropped her pencil case behind it.  It seems to me that do this she would have needed to be standing, unless she threw it over her head and over the back of the sofa,  as it doesn't appear to be a particularly low backed couch.
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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by pulch on 29.10.13 15:59

Don't you have to fall on something with an edge to cause a lot of blood, banging your head on the floor would just cause a serious bump? Depends whether we think she was hit on the head or had an accidental fall. I thought there was a lot of blood as it had seeped into the grouting of the tills?
And yes why wouldn't it be on the sofa?
Also on here I have read its around 50 minutes cadaver starts. I will have a Google.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by Searcher on 29.10.13 16:07

The Textusa site mentions the larynx specifically in relation to spots of blood on the curtains.  Apologies, no link but it is there.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by Nina on 29.10.13 16:33

DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:
DurhamGuy1967 wrote:But how long after death will a body emit the scent?

No one seems to know how  long a body has to be dead to give a reaction to the dog and it may be specific to the sensitivity of the particular dog being used. All I've seen is very soon after death but precise times are not determinable ( taken from Martin Grimes report on McCann files )  If you think about it, how would you check? I would think you would have to have a forensic team hanging a round some ones death bed, and have written permissions from both the person about to die and their next of kin and medical staff. Even if it was done it would be quite controversal and you may need to repeat it a number of times

Just found a post on another thread on this forum suggesting the "smell of death" my start to occur as organs in the body start to fail and emit an odour even before death. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html


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You appear to have overlooked the generousity of those who donate their bodies to medical science after death to aid biological. physiological, and pathological research, DG.  

Regardless of what anyone may think, in a court of law any theory proposed as to time of death will be tested against current scientific knowledge which, at the time of writing, is that in the case of an otherwise healthy adult/child it takes some 1.5-2hrs after the last breath has been taken for cadaverine to be detectable by dogs.

With regard to the alleged scent in the garden, as Eddie the cadaver dog did not alert by barking there is no evidence that it existed, albeit I am prepared to believe a body was in that location for a brief period of time.
Hi, what is your source for the 1.5 to 2 hours ? I can't find one. Martin Grimes does say very soon after death, and ...it can not be verified, implying very quickly after death
As soon as death occurs there is the start of decay, http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php. There are many articles discussing this but this is easy to understand though not for those of a delicate disposition. We have become stuck by the 90 minute suggestion. There is no discernible scent to our noses for many hours but I suggest that trained dogs do pick up these early changes that will eventually lead to cadaverine.

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Cadaver Dogs

Post by Tigerlily on 29.10.13 16:35

Could explain why some dogs go and lie with a person who is about to expire - they can 'smell' it coming...?

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by Nina on 29.10.13 16:40

Tigerlily wrote:Could explain why some dogs go and lie with a person who is about to expire - they can 'smell' it coming...?
Exactly Tigerlily. A person who is known to be dying will show many signs that death is imminent, hence the call to the hospital or care home. However in a healthy death shall we call it, through accident or malpractice, the body is healthy so no already dying cells and settling/pooling of blood.

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by tigger on 29.10.13 17:48

Searcher wrote:The Textusa site mentions the larynx specifically in relation to spots of blood on the curtains.  Apologies, no link but it is there.
There was a video clip from early September and I believe it was Martin Brunt stating it was a ruptured larynx although iirc a hyoid bone had been mentioned as well. 

Probably whooshed although HideHo might know where to find it?

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 29.10.13 18:32

Nina wrote:
DurhamGuy1967 wrote:
ultimaThule wrote:
DurhamGuy1967 wrote:But how long after death will a body emit the scent?

No one seems to know how  long a body has to be dead to give a reaction to the dog and it may be specific to the sensitivity of the particular dog being used. All I've seen is very soon after death but precise times are not determinable ( taken from Martin Grimes report on McCann files )  If you think about it, how would you check? I would think you would have to have a forensic team hanging a round some ones death bed, and have written permissions from both the person about to die and their next of kin and medical staff. Even if it was done it would be quite controversal and you may need to repeat it a number of times

Just found a post on another thread on this forum suggesting the "smell of death" my start to occur as organs in the body start to fail and emit an odour even before death. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1248539/Meet-Oscar-cat-knows-.html


DurhamGuy1967
Posts: 19
Join date: 2013-10-20

 
You appear to have overlooked the generousity of those who donate their bodies to medical science after death to aid biological. physiological, and pathological research, DG.  

Regardless of what anyone may think, in a court of law any theory proposed as to time of death will be tested against current scientific knowledge which, at the time of writing, is that in the case of an otherwise healthy adult/child it takes some 1.5-2hrs after the last breath has been taken for cadaverine to be detectable by dogs.

With regard to the alleged scent in the garden, as Eddie the cadaver dog did not alert by barking there is no evidence that it existed, albeit I am prepared to believe a body was in that location for a brief period of time.
Hi, what is your source for the 1.5 to 2 hours ? I can't find one. Martin Grimes does say very soon after death, and ...it can not be verified, implying very quickly after death
As soon as death occurs there is the start of decay, http://www.memorialpages.co.uk/articles/decomposition.php. There are many articles discussing this but this is easy to understand though not for those of a delicate disposition. We have become stuck by the 90 minute suggestion. There is no discernible scent to our noses for many hours but I suggest that trained dogs do pick up these early changes that will eventually lead to cadaverine.
Thanks, The reason I'm harping on about it is it is crucial for a time of any possible death!

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Re: Steps and baby gate

Post by tigger on 29.10.13 18:42

-and obviously nobody, including the PJ has thought of it. Until now. Gosh.

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