Where could "Smith-man" have been heading? (OR: Was there ever a "Smith-man"?)

Q71 wrote:Well , Well , Well.

Not quite Boiling Point , but , the Tipping Point.

Like Medieval Keys lay on a cold stone floor - The Door in front of your very eyes.
- Wrong Key / Correct Key.

Smithman - The esteemed Mr TB , most engaging point ` I Don`t Buy It.`

Smithman - Here are the keys , they have been found - they lay untouched.

Question - does this unlock the door  , well , do they - Test the Lock.

Hoax Sighting ? ,  if not , Truth Sighting ? = a Tipping Point.

This Thread , a must , Carry On All !!

Thou speakest in riddles.

Care to elaborate?

I have just looked at the thread "Let's Unveil the Smith's Sighting" - fascinating material.  Without casting aspersions, and having only a limited knowledge of timelines - I have to wonder what happens to "sightings" if events took place on the 2nd May and not the 3rd?  Is it just possible sightings then become red herrings when the date is changed?  Perhaps both the early and later sightings on the evening of the 3rd were innocent fathers collecting children from the night creche.  Only my thoughts but I'll add them.

Woofer wrote:

Hicks wrote:

Montclair wrote:

tiny wrote:

Sietah wrote:The cadaverdog didn't smell death on GM's clothes, that makes it impossoble it was GM carrying a dead child?

perhaps he change his clothes.

He went to the UK and probably got rid of his clothes then.

Or took them to the dump. IIRC GM made trips to the local dump for some strange reason.

Yes, easy enough to get rid of, but why not advise his dear wife to do the same?

Lets assume for a moment they were unaware of the existence of cadaverine

So KHs clothes were left as they were

But either there was no cadaverine on Button-mans clothes, or he got rid of them suspecting the buttons would give him away; not because any awareness of cadaverine

For some reason the church keeps cropping up in my mind as a key factor in the case.

Curioser wrote:That's true Galena. I have no idea where he put her. And I have no idea why he would carry her exposed like that. Arrogance and gall are my only guesses. He has plenty of both imho.

I honestly believe that man is capable of anything [including carrying his dead child] in order to save his own a***

Does anyone know offhand what time the pictures were taken that shows the blue bag still in situ? and what time GM & DP were out 'searching'?

Don't forget independent witnesses saw GM at the other end of the beach to the church, at @midnight.... I think the first hiding was @10pm [near the church], moved again [possibly in blue bag] around midnight, and then again in the middle of the night [I've always believed at the hill where they went jogging [entrance of which is where GM was seen at midnight].... you can drive up there... collected at a later date when they had the hire car....

Would lay money on MM being somewhere on that hill at some point...

ETA @Portia - GM's clothes could have had blood on.... the blood dogs alerted as well as the cadaverine

I am miles behind on this thread but just wanted to say,  I believe that Gerry McCann went back to wherever Maddies body had lain for 3 weeks and moved her in the hire car. I believe he did this when he realised (or was told) that a cadaver and blood dog were being used in the flat and he knew this would tie the body directly to their flat.

I just wonder HOW would Gerry know where the body was in order to retrieve it and move it? It was either him who placed it where it lay for the first three weeks, or it was someone acting on his instruction.

notlongnow wrote:For some reason the church keeps cropping up in my mind as a key factor in the case.

me too!  WHY were they given the keys???

@Portia -  "Lets assume for a moment they were unaware of the existence of cadaverine

So KHs clothes were left as they were

But either there was no cadaverine on Button-mans clothes, or he got rid of them suspecting the buttons would give him away; not because any awareness of cadaverine "

Ah ha - you`re on the ball tonight Portia, or is that from an episode of Poirot?

Nereid wrote:

Q71 wrote:Well , Well , Well.

Not quite Boiling Point , but , the Tipping Point.

Like Medieval Keys lay on a cold stone floor - The Door in front of your very eyes.
- Wrong Key / Correct Key.

Smithman - The esteemed Mr TB , most engaging point ` I Don`t Buy It.`

Smithman - Here are the keys , they have been found - they lay untouched.

Question - does this unlock the door  , well , do they - Test the Lock.

Hoax Sighting ? ,  if not , Truth Sighting ? = a Tipping Point.

This Thread , a must , Carry On All !!

Thou speakest in riddles.

Care to elaborate?

Seems odd that some seem to treat this like a game, or some medieval whodunit.....they might like to bare in mind that it is very likely that the bones of a beautiful innocent child are laying somewhere in this corrupt world...

dotdot wrote:

notlongnow wrote:For some reason the church keeps cropping up in my mind as a key factor in the case.

me too!  WHY were they given the keys???

Yes it does seem bizarre.
Wonder if a church is/was off limits for a search making it a very safe place?

Not having access to googleearth or other means, I would like to know if 'the beach' is adjacent to 'the marina'?  Would anyone know if they are close to one another, i.e. in the same direction?   Reason for asking is that I remember reading at the time in the press that "a boat owned by a British person, which had been moored for two years at the marina, but not taken out to sea, went out for the first time in two years on the night of 3 May."  I have never forgotten that and, as someone who doesn't believe easily in coincidences, have tried to find out more.

Why did Brian Kennedy go to see Mr Smith?? The million dollar question. Did he do it for Maddie because he was a "concerned person" or did he do it for Murat, and if he did it for Murat, why would GM be put in the frame?

Why would he do it for Murat?

I can't get my head around it. I could never understand from day one why Brian Kennedy attached himself to this case.

eta. How did Brian Kennedy get to know about the Smith sighting and who told him where Mr Smith lived?

In regard to the church, remember the alleged distress of the Portuguese priest who is reported to have said "I have been deceived", and who changed apparently from a warm, outgoing man, who loved to visit people and the coffee shops, and support his community, to a virtual recluse.  Friends said allegedly he was a changed man.  There must have been a reason.

The reason I don't think it was madeleine being carried is because both the GNR tracker dogs and the Human Search & Rescue dogs which were deployed on 4 different  days, given 3 different items to retrieve a target scent from, all set off from the same place (apartment G5A) and all followed a scent trail different to that which " Smith man " would have taken. At least 3 or 4 dogs all independently followed almost exactly the same scent trail.
 

Given that there would or should have been numerous scent trails where madeleine had been, amazingly they did what dogs do and found the freshest and possibly last scent trail that she left.

Please don't think a scent trail has to left by a living person, because that is not the case. “All humans, alive or dead, constantly emit microscopic particles bearing human scent”
Dogs use their natural ability and hunting instinct to find scents and their ability to do this is nearly impossible to defeat. They can locate a scent no matter how much it is intermingled with other odours and dependent on environmental conditions , can detect that scent when it is days old. 

Tombraider wrote:The reason I don't think it was madeleine being carried is because both the GNR tracker dogs and the Human Search & Rescue dogs which were deployed on 4 different  days, given 3 different items to retrieve a target scent from, all set off from the same place (apartment G5A) and all followed a scent trail different to that which " Smith man " would have taken. At least 3 or 4 dogs all independently followed almost exactly the same scent trail.
 

Given that there would or should have been numerous scent trails where madeleine had been, amazingly they did what dogs do and found the freshest and possibly last scent trail that she left.

Please don't think a scent trail has to left by a living person, because that is not the case. “All humans, alive or dead, constantly emit microscopic particles bearing human scent”
Dogs use their natural ability and hunting instinct to find scents and their ability to do this is nearly impossible to defeat. They can locate a scent no matter how much it is intermingled with other odours and dependent on environmental conditions , can detect that scent when it is days old. 

do you know off hand if there is a map of those trails?

littlepixie wrote:Why did Brian Kennedy go to see Mr Smith?? The million dollar question. Did he do it for Maddie because he was a "concerned person" or did he do it for Murat, and if he did it for Murat, why would GM be put in the frame?

Why would he do it for Murat?

I can't get my head around it. I could never understand from day one why Brian Kennedy attached himself to this case.

eta. How did Brian Kennedy get to know about the Smith sighting and who told him where Mr Smith lived?

If the smith sighting was in the mccanns hands then that's where he got it from.

I suppose it all depends on whether the GNR and search and rescue dogs were given genuine items to scent. I would think it hardly likely they were if the McCanns were involved.

They wouldn't want the dogs to find where she was taken would they.

I've had a rather gruesome thought regarding the lack of cadaver odour on certain people's clothes and the concern of the Smiths when they felt they needed to ask 'is she sleeping?'.
   If a body was frozen and taken out of the cold for a short time (say 5-10 mins) and carried somewhere, would this explain lack of cadaver odour on the person that was carrying that body and also some kind of explanation on why an observer may see something that didn't look like a 'normal' 'relaxed' sleeping child?

MoonGoddess wrote:

Tombraider wrote:The reason I don't think it was madeleine being carried is because both the GNR tracker dogs and the Human Search & Rescue dogs which were deployed on 4 different  days, given 3 different items to retrieve a target scent from, all set off from the same place (apartment G5A) and all followed a scent trail different to that which " Smith man " would have taken. At least 3 or 4 dogs all independently followed almost exactly the same scent trail.
 

Given that there would or should have been numerous scent trails where madeleine had been, amazingly they did what dogs do and found the freshest and possibly last scent trail that she left.

Please don't think a scent trail has to left by a living person, because that is not the case. “All humans, alive or dead, constantly emit microscopic particles bearing human scent”
Dogs use their natural ability and hunting instinct to find scents and their ability to do this is nearly impossible to defeat. They can locate a scent no matter how much it is intermingled with other odours and dependent on environmental conditions , can detect that scent when it is days old. 

do you know off hand if there is a map of those trails?

 I don't know of one  MoonGoddess , but what is definite is that the Portuguese police would not have wasted valuable time and resources deploying those dogs about 10 times over 4 different days if they didn't believe the dogs were right.

Who remembers the white bag with a pair of jeans in it, found on the side of the road?

Jane Tanner was determined to deny she had taken jeans on holiday

OUOTE

THE SUN reported on October 21st, 2008

KATE McCann and three friends discussed child-snatchers hours before daughter Madeleine disappeared, it has emerged.
Dr Russell O'Brien, one of the so-called Tapas Seven, told police of the "haunting" conversation had while on holiday in Portugal last year. He said it came up after another father said he felt awkward photographing his own child.
Dr O'Brien, 37, was with his partner Jane Tanner, 37, Rachel Oldfield, 37, and Kate, 40. He said: "We then had a conversation about the ludicrous pressure on parents that they can't take photos of their children.
"The other aspect of the conversation, which is doubly haunting, was that we said, 'You're far more likely to get clobbered by your uncle or your neighbour than some random stranger'.
"Since this happened ten or 11 hours before Madeleine was abducted, it seemed a very uncomfortable coincidence." The doctor, of Exeter, Devon, made his comments in April as he was quizzed by British cops at the request of the Portuguese authorities.
THE DAILY MAIL reported September, 26th, 2007.
SNIFFER DOGS ‘ FOUND SCENT OF DEATH’ ON MCCANNS FRIEND
Friends of the McCanns faced fresh allegations yesterday after it was claimed that sniffer dogs had found the "scent of death" on one of them.
The same police dog which reacted to Mrs McCann's clothes - first causing suspicion to fall on her - was alleged to have smelled "death" on one of the friends who had dinner with the couple the night Madeleine vanished.
Police sources briefed a Portuguese newspaper that two police dogs from South Yorkshire, trained to detect corpses, human remains and microscopic traces of blood, had reacted to some items of clothing.
Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell denied categorically that any such procedure had happened.
The newspaper did not reveal which of the friends' clothing was meant to have triggered the reaction. Police in South Yorkshire refused to comment.
Detectives are writing to British police asking them to re-interview the seven friends the McCanns dined with on the night Madeleine vanished.
Madeleine's parents were dining in a tapas restaurant just yards from the apartment in the Mark Warner Resort in the Algarve, Portugal, when their daughter disappeared.
She had been sleeping inside the apartment with her brother and sister, twins Sean and Amelie.
According to reports from Portugal, all of those dining with the McCanns that night face further police questioning because their accounts of the night's events allegedly clashed.
Leicestershire police have consistently refused to comment on its role in the investigation and directed all questions to Portugal.A spokeswoman said: "As the inquiry into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann is a Portuguese police investigation it is not appropriate for us to comment on it.
Our role is to assist the Portuguese authorities, when and if they request it, with UK based inquiries.
"But because it is a Portuguese investigation, and because of the judicial system there, we are not able to disclose the nature of those inquires."
The seven friends - who, with the McCanns, make up the Tapas Nine - have been steadfast in their loyalty to Madeleine's family.
The group - most of them doctors and professionals - was made up of:
Dr Russell O'Brien, 36 A consultant in acute medicine at the Royal Devon and Exeter Hospital, he knew Gerry McCann from Leicester.
He was on holiday with his partner Jane Tanner and their two young daughters.
At 9.25pm he left the restaurant for around 25 minutes to check on one of the girls, who was ill.
He has been subject to a vicious Portuguese press campaign alleging he was absent for over an hour when Madeleine went missing.
He has threatened to sue, insisting: "These reports are completely untrue and extremely hurtful."
Jane Tanner, 37
Dr O'Brien's partner. She arrived late at the tapas bar after treating their sick daughter.
On the way, she passed the McCanns' apartment and saw a man carrying a child.
Crucially, her description of the child's clothes matched Madeleine's pink pyjamas.
Dr Matthew Oldfield, 37
Dr Oldfield, an endocrinologist at Kingston Hospital in South-West London, went to check the McCann children at 9 25pm.
But he did not look inside the flat - simply listened from outside to ensure Madeleine and the twins were not crying.
Rachael Oldfield, 36
Dr Oldfield's wife, a former lawyer who is now a recruitment consultant.
She is one of four witnesses who claim to have seen the first suspect, British expat Robert Murat, near the McCanns' flat.
Last month she angrily dismissed reports that police had intercepted phone calls and emails between the McCanns and their friends which contradicted the group's earlier statements.
Mrs Oldfield accused Portuguese police of "throwing mud when we are not able to defend oursleves"
David Payne, 41
Mr Payne is a senior research fellow in cardiovascular sciences at Leicester University
He and his wife and mother-in-law joined the group at 8.55pm.
They are believed to have been the only ones using a baby monitor to check on their two children.
Mr Payne has said: "All these smears and rumours are overshadowing the important thing, which is to get Madeleine back."
Dr Fiona Payne, 34
Mr Payne's wife, she is understood to have told police she saw Mr Murat shortly after Madeleine vanished.
Dr Payne and her husband stayed on in the Algarve to support the McCanns. When the couple were made official suspects, she said: "It's an outrage - a preposterous accusation."
Dianne Webster
Dr Payne's mother. She has given no public interviews.
Dr.Russell O’Brian in Leicestershire  the video for his first interview seemed to have ‘Technical failure’.
Russell read Jane Tanners,( his partners) statement to remind him of the events .
(Is it within the law to allow a witness to check anothers statement ? or ,was this to make sure they both agreed ? It seems Leicestershire Constabulary make up their own rules where these Doctors are concerned.)

RUSSELL O’BRIAN "I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory at the start of the report by Jane Tanner (partner) and it allowed me to see these documents, which have been done in the presence of DC 1578 Gierc," said O 'Brien.

(O'Brien was interviewed twice, on 8 and April 10, 2008, but strangely, his first interview could not be recorded on video because, according to British police, there would be a "technical failure")
The second interview, Russell O'Brien by the officer Andrew Gierc, was recorded on video.
O’BRIANS partner JANE TANNER gave her witness statement to PJ May 4th, 2007
The time 11.30 am
JANE was clear about the type of clothing she saw the ‘abductor’ wearing.
He was wearing linen type cloth trousers, beige to golden in colour, a “duffy” sic type jacket (but not that thick).

Note: Jane does not mention jeans nor long hair.
KATE McCANN
Did not give her statement until 2.20 pm the afternoon of May 4th.  
KATE AND JANE WOULD HAVE HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO GET THEIR STORY STRAIGHT
Kate ate and Jane would have had plenty of time to talk about the man she saw and what he was wearing  Thus at around 9pm, her husband went to the apartment to make sure the twins, as well as Madeleine, were OK, then he went back to the restaurant.
Her husband said that the children were doing well and that he had bumped into the person with whom he had played tennis, a person who has two children.
At the same time, one of the group of friends, Russell, went to see his children, without checking on the interviewee's children.
Later, a member of the group, Russell's partner Jane, when she went to her apartment to see her children at around 9.15pm, saw from the back [rear] about 50 metres away, on the perimeter road of the club, a long-haired person, in what she thinks were jeans, with a child in his arms and walking very quickly. But she is better able to tell you about that herself.
Kate said ,Jane saw  'a long haired person she thinks with jeans.
Was Kate trying to set up Jane Tanner ? it is a possibilty, person but later changes to his arms not really sure if it was a man or woman.
Kate when she spoke to Yvonne from SS said Madeleine had been taken by a couple. Were at this point all options on the table.
Janes rogatory statement and how important for the officer to know she did not take jeans on holiday.

Reply “Yeah. Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road.
I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then.
Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so. Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking,I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak.
Wilkins saw Tanner May 3rd standing outside what he thought was her apartment wearing a purple dress. Did Tanner change her clothes that night and if so why? . There has been talk of Kate changing clothes but it looks like it may have been Tanner.
TANNER from her ROGATORY STATEMENT:
"I remember what I was wearing because it was cold, I'd borrowed one of RUSSELLS'S FLEECES."
"BUT I did not take JEANS with me to PDL

littlepixie wrote:I suppose it all depends on whether the GNR and search and rescue dogs were given genuine items to scent. I would think it hardly likely they were if the McCanns were involved.

They wouldn't want the dogs to find where she was taken would they.

Well who ever's scent was the towel, pink blanket and clothing must have been the same or they wouldn't have followed the same route.

littlepixie wrote:

tiny wrote:

littlepixie wrote:Why did Brian Kennedy go to see Mr Smith?? The million dollar question. Did he do it for Maddie because he was a "concerned person" or did he do it for Murat, and if he did it for Murat, why would GM be put in the frame?

Why would he do it for Murat?

I can't get my head around it. I could never understand from day one why Brian Kennedy attached himself to this case.

eta. How did Brian Kennedy get to know about the Smith sighting and who told him where Mr Smith lived?

If the smith sighting was in the mccanns hands then that's where he got it from.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Littlepixie said
So the McCanns send BK to talk to Mr Smith and afterwards Mr Smith says the man definitely isnt Murat, but could be Gerry McCann?
That backfired then  

My head is in bits lol!

 never thought of it like that.   or kennedy could not make Mr Smith change his mind.

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tiny wrote:

littlepixie wrote:Why did Brian Kennedy go to see Mr Smith?? The million dollar question. Did he do it for Maddie because he was a "concerned person" or did he do it for Murat, and if he did it for Murat, why would GM be put in the frame?

Why would he do it for Murat?

I can't get my head around it. I could never understand from day one why Brian Kennedy attached himself to this case.

eta. How did Brian Kennedy get to know about the Smith sighting and who told him where Mr Smith lived?

If the smith sighting was in the mccanns hands then that's where he got it from.

Tiny, do you see the importance of what you have just said?

Kennedy would only go 'talk to' the Smiths if he had firm reason to believe they had seen any one of the Tapas party, Kennedy was trying to protect;

Was Kennedy protecting -say- DW or DP; heck no;

The only people he ever admitted wanting to 'help' were and are the McCs;

Kennedy went to see the Smiths because either or both of the MCCs had informed him that the Smiths had seen Button-man and this was a bother to them;

Why else go all the way to Ireland?

How did the McCs know that the Smiths had seen something, had seen Button-man?

Not because anyone told them; this sighting was guarded in the PJ-Amaral files;

They knew, because they had seen the Smiths notice Button-man;

How did they see?

Because one of them saw the Smiths seeing him

And it wasn't Kate who was seen and reported by the Smiths

Ergo: 
Kennedy's trip to the Smiths proves that the Smiths had seen GM, as witnessed by the fact that the McCs thought fit to have Kennedy go to Ireland to tamper with talk to these independent witnesses

QED! IMO naturally