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2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by soundworks on 19.10.13 10:01

this is confusing as well

I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by russiandoll on 19.10.13 10:09

In Kate's book he was placed at 5a when she was alone with the the 3 children and had been sent by Gerry to see if she needed any help taking them out for a while.

Elsewhere in the files he gives the same account as the above. No mention of it in the first statements by either him or Kate. Even allowing for stress I find its omission by them BOTH bizarre.
 Strange too that when it is recalled later,  he and Kate remember the time he stayed at 5a so very differently.

 I agree with you - Payne has managed to stay under the radar : not involved in any checks on any night, not even on his own children who went hours without a personal check. The only man who did not leave the tapas table that night and was nowhere near 5a until alarm raised.

 So never away from the table that evening.

 He has had a big role to play I think probably due to his close friendship with Gerry.

 Gaspar a distraction imo and a red herring. Maybe a message to force his silence.
 
 Now gone from the crucial part of the timeline.........a last sighting of an alive Maddie, making her parents and Gerry specifically, who did the check before leaving 5a, the last to see her alive.


 The omission of this visit from CW is crucial in the investigation .

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Five Star on 19.10.13 10:10

"The husband" ..."The wife"... "The better half"

Sounds like her husband to me.
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by ultimaThule on 19.10.13 13:21

thanks I knew I'd read somewhere that David Payne's various accounts of the 3 May 2007 don't tally and at one point he claimed he last saw Madeleine considerably earlier than the c6.30pm he subsequently recalled seeing her and the twins 'looking like angels', or words to that effect. 

Fiona Payne's account as given in Portugal have her, her mother, and the children, being at the beach 15.45-18.15 before they headed towards the tennis courts (presumably to watch David playing) remaining there until c7pm when she went to 'the apartment' with her mother and the children.  At 19.10pm 'the husband' appeared and he and her mother bathed the children while she went jogging.  

There's another discrepancy which may not mean anything but, fwiw, in the first statement he gave to the PJ on 5/5/2007 his name is shown as David Anthony Payne birth date -blanked-out-1966 but in the rogatory statement he made on 11/4/2008 he gives his name as David Payne birth date fourteenth April nineteen fifty six.

I know this has already been noted elsewhere but for the record on this thread, according to David Payne the 3rd May 2007 is the date Oldfield and O'Brien took catamarans out to sea while he spent a couple of hours windsurfing.  This presumably is the boating trip in which allegedly one of them got into difficulties which resulted in the hapless one falling overboard/going under/getting soaking wet.
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Was David Payne's visit to drug the children?

Post by Cerinthe on 20.10.13 10:26

Thinking about the significance of David Payne visiting K&G's apartment that evening.  It doesn't make sense that he'd pop round just when a mother was in the middle of getting her children ready for bed, so maybe Payne was visiting (deleted)
 
Deleted

Then you might get into a scenario of Madeleine resisting being drugged and running away and maybe climbing on the sofa and falling off, or maybe even Kate hitting her in frustration (I've always thought those karate chop motions she makes in interviews are telling us a *lot* more than she wants to give away).  It would explain the timings too - how long the body must have lain there to leave the death scent, and the way everything had to happen during dinner at the Tapas bar. 
 
If that were the case it would explain the Tapas friends working to cover up what happened.  They'd want to protect both their friends, and would probably justify it to themselves that they were helping their friends' children not to have convicts for parents.  I'm sure that's how K&G justify the cover up to themselves - that it might be too late for Madeleine but Sean and Amelie deserve two parents who are there to bring them up, rather than in prison.   It would be hard for anyone to argue with that tug on the heart strings.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by tigger on 20.10.13 10:34

In one word: NO - He was never there at that time anyway.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Cerinthe on 20.10.13 10:37

Why do you say that?

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Cerinthe on 20.10.13 10:51

Did I break a rule?

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by suzyjohnson on 20.10.13 11:00

I have thought about that same possibility Cerinthe, but I think it's more likely that the visit was invented to say that all was well at 6.30 pm.

The were all there, the children all dressed in white, like angels, as DP said. Ridiculous comment. 

 If DP had gone round for any other reason I think it's more likely they wouldn't have mentioned the visit to the police at all.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Guest on 20.10.13 11:05

Cerinthe, I have merged your thread with this one.

Note of caution please can members be careful what they post....
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Cerinthe on 20.10.13 11:16

Thanks Candy. 

I think they had to have cover stories to disguise real events Suzy.  He might have said he was there to preempt a witness reporting that they'd seen him go in and out of the apartment.   

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Cerinthe on 20.10.13 11:20

It just makes me think of a doctor making a house call.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Guest on 20.10.13 11:38

@Cerinthe wrote:It just makes me think of a doctor making a house call.
shipman?
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Guest on 20.10.13 12:40

Certainly not all doctors are immune from prosecution.
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Hobs on 20.10.13 20:30

I recall her mentioning a bath and a shower on the thurs night, she had a shower and payne showed up and in her bewk mentioning having a bath later with gerry and gerry mentioning it in his rog.

Why then would a woman have a 2nd bath after a male visitor?

Also when water and bathing is mentioned in a statement it can indicate sexual activity has taken place which makes me wonder if there was a sexual element to this case which could be why they couldn't allow her to be autopsied ( along with  evidence of long term sedation or drugs in her hair) which would drop the parents in it and result in loss of their licence to practice and probably loss of the twins.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by ultimaThule on 21.10.13 7:52

@Hobs wrote:I recall her mentioning a bath and a shower on the thurs night, she had a shower and payne showed up and in her bewk mentioning having a bath later with gerry and gerry mentioning it in his rog.

Why then would a woman have a 2nd bath after a male visitor?

Also when water and bathing is mentioned in a statement it can indicate sexual activity has taken place which makes me wonder if there was a sexual element to this case which could be why they couldn't allow her to be autopsied ( along with  evidence of long term sedation or drugs in her hair) which would drop the parents in it and result in loss of their licence to practice and probably loss of the twins.
If the McCanns conspired with each other and/or with any of their friends to hide the cause of Madeleine's death by concealing her body, it can only be because they feared the consequences of what would have been discovered on autopsy.

Apart from the obvious reason as to why KM took a bath within a comparatively short time of having a shower, if something untoward had occurred in the intervening time she may have found need to compose herself prior to attending the Tapas Bar as per usual in order allay suspicion.

There's a post I recently read on this forum relating to one or other of the McCanns not being sure they'd be able to get a table at the Tapas that night, despite it being known the group had a block booking for the duration of their holiday.  It also contained something to the effect of KM saying the group were planning or thinking of going elsewhere to eat, the implication being they would be taking the children with them. 

However, the Tapas 9 were reputed to have been seen without their offspring drinking late evening in bars in Luz and it has been reported here that league football matches held in the UK were screened in Portugal on the nights of both Tuesday 1 and Wednesday 2 May 2007.

Presupposing the group were planning to eat out further afield without their offspring and the McCanns did not want a repeat of the Tuesday night when Mrs Fenn heard one or more of the children crying for over an hour causing them to receive a call/complaint from the Mark Warner office the following day, it could be they upped the dosage of whatever sedative they had to hand causing the twins to sleep through the later mayhem in 5A and causing their eldest daughter to die of an overdose. 

This scenario can also be transposed to Wednesday 2nd May with the McCanns returning from their night out to discover Madeleine had died some hours before maybe from a fractured skull caused by falling from the sofa which, possibly befuddled by medication, she had climbed onto in order to look out of the only window which had an open shutter to see if her parents were walking along the road outside.

It seems inconceivable to me that a pair of doctors wouldn't have been able to come up with a credible explanation as to a delay of a few hours between the time of their daughter's death and an alert to the appropriate authorities, but it could be that these singularly neglectful parents, having not bothered to go into their children's bedroom on their return, didn't discover Madeleine's death until the following morning which would pose problems for them.
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by soundworks on 21.10.13 8:03

why would Kate and Gerry mention about about MM crying the night before and saying that she was asking why they didnt come

as a parent I would have omitted this as it would make me look like a shocking parent especially after going out the next night

I think this could be a red herring to help prove she was still alive

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by ultimaThule on 21.10.13 8:13

@soundworks wrote:why would Kate and Gerry mention about about MM crying the night before and saying that she was asking why they didnt come

as a parent I would have omitted this as it would make me look like a shocking parent especially after going out the next night

I think this could be a red herring to help prove she was still alive
Madeleine and one of the twins were heard crying for over an hour until their parents returned to 5A cmidnight on 1st May.  

It seems improbable that an almost 4 year old child waited some 30+ hours to ask her parents why they didn't come when she and Sean cried unless, of course, they'd been crying again on the night of the 2nd. 

Nothing the McCanns say can be taken at face value and, other than sightings by independent witnesses, nothing they or their friends say can prove Madeleine was alive at any given time.
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Guest on 21.10.13 10:03

@soundworks wrote:why would Kate and Gerry mention about about MM crying the night before and saying that she was asking why they didnt come

as a parent I would have omitted this as it would make me look like a shocking parent especially after going out the next night

I think this could be a red herring to help prove she was still alive
Yes; that, and to present an explanation for the crying heard by many around the apartment, as mrs Fenn and others.
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Curioser on 21.10.13 10:04

@Cerinthe wrote:Thinking about the significance of David Payne visiting K&G's apartment that evening.  It doesn't make sense that he'd pop round just when a mother was in the middle of getting her children ready for bed, so maybe Payne was visiting (deleted)
 
Deleted

Then you might get into a scenario of Madeleine resisting being drugged and running away and maybe climbing on the sofa and falling off, or maybe even Kate hitting her in frustration (I've always thought those karate chop motions she makes in interviews are telling us a *lot* more than she wants to give away).  It would explain the timings too - how long the body must have lain there to leave the death scent, and the way everything had to happen during dinner at the Tapas bar. 
 
If that were the case it would explain the Tapas friends working to cover up what happened.  They'd want to protect both their friends, and would probably justify it to themselves that they were helping their friends' children not to have convicts for parents.  I'm sure that's how K&G justify the cover up to themselves - that it might be too late for Madeleine but Sean and Amelie deserve two parents who are there to bring them up, rather than in prison.   It would be hard for anyone to argue with that tug on the heart strings.
Yes, that's very interesting Cerinthe. I hadn't thought about that forbidden proposition.

This thread has prompted me to bring out (ta-da [just joking]) my newbie theory. Or parts of it. I think sex might be involved.

So:
Madeleine’s body had to be behind the couch for at least 90 minutes for cadaverine to develop.
Kate said in a TV interview something like “We know it wasn’t because we weren’t there.”

How about this:

4.45 Kate jogging. Gerry at tennis.

5.00 High tea with all kids and GM. Kate arrives back there sometime during.

5.30 Crèche worker sees Madeleine.

5.40 Family arrive back at apartment. GM and KH bathe kids


5.55 GM to tennis. KH dresses the kids in pajamas. Gave the kids chips, milk and biscuits (maybe with sedation?)


6.30 – 6.40 Kate has a shower while the kids are reading/eating.

6.30 David Payne supposedly sees the kids. Kate was supposedly in a towel but DP can’t remember what she was wearing(?) I don’t think this happened.  Now thanks to Cerinthe another piece falls into place.

7.00 GM returns from tennis – sits on couch.

"At 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa. About 10 to 15 minutes later, they took the children to the bedroom and they all sat on MADELEINE'S bed to read a story."

She reads them another story with all five of them on Maddie’s bed (not on the bed by the door she didn’t!).
The twins kiss Maddie goodnight. KH and GM each put one twin in each cot (she thinks!)


Kids asleep by 7.15 Kate is ‘sure of this’.

GM says "At 19H30, the twins were already in their respective cots and MADELEINE in the bed next to the bedroom door. He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were. As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer."

Kate says maybe Gerry had a shower – (this is three days later on the 6th and she can’t remember?) Gerry says he had a bath.

7.30 They close the door and have sex in their bedroom. Maybe make-up sex if she slept in the kids room the previous night after he was chatting up the trivia girl. (Although that may be diversion about the unmade bed by the window.)

Maybe during this, Maddie wakes up and goes out into the living room groggy. She goes to the couch and plays there. She drops her pencil case down the back of the couch like she’s done many times before, according to Gerry that’s why they pushed the couch against the wall.
 
She stands on the couch and reaches down over the back, maybe bounces a little, and topples over. She smacks her head on the tiled floor. She lies bleeding onto the curtains and tiles behind the couch. Gerry and Kate don’t hear because they are making noise of their own.

They finish having sex. Gerry goes for a shower/bath. Kate has a bath again (This explains the two cleansings!) Puts on her makeup.

8.30 They go to dinner without checking the children, “All quiet”,  before leaving the apartment.  They’re so insistent that they are sure they checked the children, but Kate didn’t – she says on the 5th that Gerry checked them. Gerry says on the 10th that he listened at the door, there was no noise so he didn’t go in. 

No-one checked she was in bed when they left. At this point Maddie could already have been dead on the floor behind the couch.

This gives enough time for cadaverine to develop in her poor little body.

----- At 20H35, they left the apartment in the direction of the TAPAS. Before they left and because the children's bedroom door was ajar as always, he opened it a little more, listening from the outside and, as there was complete silence he did not enter, returning the door to its previous position, with a space of about 10cm.


Quotes in blue are from interviews.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by pulch on 21.10.13 13:00

Sounds plausible. Would explain the two showers/baths.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Curioser on 21.10.13 15:51

Thanks Pulch. That's the first time I've had a reply to an idea that didn't try to take the topic off in a wild direction. 

I'm very happy for people to pick holes in it based on the files. In fact, that's what I want.

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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Juulcy on 21.10.13 17:19

If you look at the lay out of the appartement for instance on mccann files, I think it would have been impossible to go from parents bedroom to bathroom without seeing the livingroom and the couch. Other than that it might have been an explanation..
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by Hicks on 15.02.14 19:59

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLvnfcl-Zkg

Just for clarification regarding the 6.30 visit by Payne. In this interview KM says that on the Thursday, May 3rd, Madeleine was so tired by home time from the crèche- by all the week activities -she asked her mother to carry her back to the apartment. Kate McCann states quite clearly @ 17.19 that they both decided  the children would NOT be going to the play area but would be bathed, put into their pyjamas and sent to bed instead. Oops....I guess they plain forgot about Gerry later asking David Payne to visit 5a and help Kate take the children to the play area!

Quite clearly the Payne visit never happened.
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Re: 2 topics: The blue bag & the David Payne visit 6.30pm 3 May

Post by diatribe on 15.02.14 20:53

@Curioser wrote:
Yes, that's very interesting Cerinthe. I hadn't thought about that forbidden proposition.

This thread has prompted me to bring out (ta-da [just joking]) my newbie theory. Or parts of it. I think sex might be involved.

So:
Madeleine’s body had to be behind the couch for at least 90 minutes for cadaverine to develop.
Kate said in a TV interview something like “We know it wasn’t because we weren’t there.”

How about this:

4.45 Kate jogging. Gerry at tennis.

5.00 High tea with all kids and GM. Kate arrives back there sometime during.

5.30 Crèche worker sees Madeleine.

5.40 Family arrive back at apartment. GM and KH bathe kids


5.55 GM to tennis. KH dresses the kids in pajamas. Gave the kids chips, milk and biscuits (maybe with sedation?)


6.30 – 6.40 Kate has a shower while the kids are reading/eating.

6.30 David Payne supposedly sees the kids. Kate was supposedly in a towel but DP can’t remember what she was wearing(?) I don’t think this happened.  Now thanks to Cerinthe another piece falls into place.

7.00 GM returns from tennis – sits on couch.

"At 19H00, he made his way to the apartment, finding KATE and the children playing on the sofa. About 10 to 15 minutes later, they took the children to the bedroom and they all sat on MADELEINE'S bed to read a story."

She reads them another story with all five of them on Maddie’s bed (not on the bed by the door she didn’t!).
The twins kiss Maddie goodnight. KH and GM each put one twin in each cot (she thinks!)


Kids asleep by 7.15 Kate is ‘sure of this’.

GM says "At 19H30, the twins were already in their respective cots and MADELEINE in the bed next to the bedroom door. He does not know if they were asleep but from the silence he presumed that they were. As it was still early he took a bath, he thinks that KATE had already had one, they talked a little and drank wine or beer."

Kate says maybe Gerry had a shower – (this is three days later on the 6th and she can’t remember?) Gerry says he had a bath.

7.30 They close the door and have sex in their bedroom. Maybe make-up sex if she slept in the kids room the previous night after he was chatting up the trivia girl. (Although that may be diversion about the unmade bed by the window.)

Maybe during this, Maddie wakes up and goes out into the living room groggy. She goes to the couch and plays there. She drops her pencil case down the back of the couch like she’s done many times before, according to Gerry that’s why they pushed the couch against the wall.
 
She stands on the couch and reaches down over the back, maybe bounces a little, and topples over. She smacks her head on the tiled floor. She lies bleeding onto the curtains and tiles behind the couch. Gerry and Kate don’t hear because they are making noise of their own.

They finish having sex. Gerry goes for a shower/bath. Kate has a bath again (This explains the two cleansings!) Puts on her makeup.

8.30 They go to dinner without checking the children, “All quiet”,  before leaving the apartment.  They’re so insistent that they are sure they checked the children, but Kate didn’t – she says on the 5th that Gerry checked them. Gerry says on the 10th that he listened at the door, there was no noise so he didn’t go in. 

No-one checked she was in bed when they left. At this point Maddie could already have been dead on the floor behind the couch.

This gives enough time for cadaverine to develop in her poor little body.

----- At 20H35, they left the apartment in the direction of the TAPAS. Before they left and because the children's bedroom door was ajar as always, he opened it a little more, listening from the outside and, as there was complete silence he did not enter, returning the door to its previous position, with a space of about 10cm.


Quotes in blue are from interviews.
But who discovered the body and perhaps more poignantly, when was it disposed of? Perhaps Gerry discovered it at 9.0pm, then had a chat with his old tennis buddy before strolling back to the bar and whispering in Kate's ear ''ere, you'll never guess what's happened, Madeleine has had an accident and she's dead. Don't worry though, leave it half an hr, go back to the apt. whoosh the curtains, open the window and scream out, they've taken her an' in the confusion I'll nip out and bury her.'' ''Oh! okay babes, finish your drink, you look a bit shaken, mind yer, I always said she was accident prone.'' big grin

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