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"Burglary gone wrong"

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"Burglary gone wrong"

Post by corpushining on 15.10.13 11:32

Hi all,

Really enjoyed reading the theories. I still think it's likely that the McCanns are culpable but don't dismiss the following theory out of hand:

*A spate of burglaries had taken place in the Apartments recently Source: Crimewatch
*A burglar slipped into the apartment (patio doors/window). Obviously thought it was empty. Madeline woke up and disturbed.  
* Burglar likely to be non English speaker. May be illegal immigrant from North Africa. Panics. Smothers/attacks Madeline leading to her death.
* Takes the body and dumps it effectively.

Surely this theory is much more likely then abductors/peadophile rings etc etc. Just going to statistics and the nature of crime its much more likely that this was a crime of passion. Surely if we take that as the likely starting point the theory above is the only credible one bar Madeline being murdered by her parents.


Now tear it apart....

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by Guest on 15.10.13 11:38

corpushining wrote:Hi all,

Really enjoyed reading the theories. I still think it's likely that the McCanns are culpable but don't dismiss the following theory out of hand:

*A spate of burglaries had taken place in the Apartments recently Source: Crimewatch
*A burglar slipped into the apartment (patio doors/window). Obviously thought it was empty. Madeline woke up and disturbed.  
* Burglar likely to be non English speaker. May be illegal immigrant from North Africa. Panics. Smothers/attacks Madeline leading to her death.
* Takes the body and dumps it effectively.

Surely this theory is much more likely then abductors/peadophile rings etc etc. Just going to statistics and the nature of crime its much more likely that this was a crime of passion. Surely if we take that as the likely starting point the theory above is the only credible one bar Madeline being murdered by her parents.


Now tear it apart....
Burglars almost never kill, let alone kill a small child. If the burglar got so far as the childrens room, he would have seen that the rest of the apartment was empty. So no risk for him if a small child would see him and start to holler. He'd just close the door and leave

Unless he'd just abused the child and wanted to erase the traces. But there is no evidence of abuse in the apartment
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by corpushining on 15.10.13 11:44

Agree that for this to fit has to be a burglary NOT abuse.

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by galena on 15.10.13 12:05

corpushining wrote:Hi all,

Really enjoyed reading the theories. I still think it's likely that the McCanns are culpable but don't dismiss the following theory out of hand:

*A spate of burglaries had taken place in the Apartments recently Source: Crimewatch
*A burglar slipped into the apartment (patio doors/window). Obviously thought it was empty. Madeline woke up and disturbed.  
* Burglar likely to be non English speaker. May be illegal immigrant from North Africa. Panics. Smothers/attacks Madeline leading to her death.
* Takes the body and dumps it effectively.

Surely this theory is much more likely then abductors/peadophile rings etc etc. Just going to statistics and the nature of crime its much more likely that this was a crime of passion. Surely if we take that as the likely starting point the theory above is the only credible one bar Madeline being murdered by her parents.


Now tear it apart....
This theory is not new and has been discussed many many times on internet forums.  The concensus - to the best of my memory - is that while it is possible (though not likely) that a burglar would kill a small child,  why on earth would they take the risk/time of carrying the body out of the apartment? Why should they - there's nothing to tie them to that location. A child's body being removed is much more suggestive of someone closer who would fall under instant suspicion.

It IS possible that the burglar was also a paedophile - like the little girl snatched from her bath a few years back - who was tempted to take a child to abuse her - but with a disorganised offender like this the chances are that she would be found - either dead or alive shortly after.  

For me the most likely options are either - parental involvement or a planned abduction. 

Has there ever been a case - ever - where a burglar inadvertantly or deliberately killed the occupant of the house they were burgling and disposed of the body?  I can't think of a single case but perhaps others can ... 

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by worriedmum on 15.10.13 14:16

..and why would there be cadaver odour in multiple places?
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by Guest on 15.10.13 14:21

I can't readily think of any cases where residents have been killed by burglars but there are certainly a few of burglars being killed in self-defence.

I'm sure there must be cases where burglars have lashed out in a panic and caused someone's death but I've never heard of children being involved.
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by corpushining on 15.10.13 14:21

The abduction theory just seems so complicated and unlikely though? Surely there are easier ways for a highly educated and motivated peadophile to abduct a child?

This theory also allows for "cadaver odour in multiple places"

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by corpushining on 15.10.13 14:32

As for not taking anything. If you kill a three year old child by mistake surely you are going to panic? You arent going to continue with taking items from the flat? Surely you would get the hell out of there as quick as possible and maybe, maybe, in your panic you take the body as you are worried it will leave evidence of a murder. It would be a split second decision.

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by galena on 15.10.13 14:33

The problem with all abduction theories - gangs of paedophiles/lone paedophiles/burglars/aliens - is that they don't explain the parents' behaviour.  Why would they lie to protect them?  Why have they ignored the Smith sighting and why have they never followed up on any of sightings of Madeleine reported by the public? What about the cadaver dogs finding?  Why did Kate refuse to answer 48 questions from the PJ?  and so on ...

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by worriedmum on 15.10.13 14:36

corpushining wrote:The abduction theory just seems so complicated and unlikely though? Surely there are easier ways for a highly educated and motivated peadophile to abduct a child?

This theory also allows for "cadaver odour in multiple places"
 Sorry how does it allow for cadaver odour in multiple places?
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by galena on 15.10.13 14:41

corpushining wrote:As for not taking anything. If you kill a three year old child by mistake surely you are going to panic? You arent going to continue with taking items from the flat? Surely you would get the hell out of there as quick as possible and maybe, maybe, in your panic you take the body as you are worried it will leave evidence of a murder. It would be a split second decision.
Get the hell out of there yes - taking a body seems a far higher risk to me than leaving it in situ.  You run the risk of being caught red-handed with a dead child, more DNA transfer and you still have the problem of disposing of the body.  If this scenario had actually happened (and frankly I think it very unlikely) the burglar did Gerry a huge favour - if Madeleine's body had been discovered in the flat he would have been the chief suspect - given as he was the last person to see her alive ...

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by gbwales on 15.10.13 15:36

1 - There's not enough time for cadaverine to be released as this would have to take place after Gerry's 21:05 visit to the room. It also fails to explain (human) cadaverine found in the McCann's rental car from 20 days later and on Kate's clothing etc at the villa.
2 - Why on earth would you make the bed and take the child? Why not just run?
3 - Why was there no forensic evidence whatsoever of nay kind of break-in / entry / other person?

And by the way, I think that the most likely alternative would not be as you suggest that the McCanns "murdered" their child, but that she died of accidental causes in their absence.

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by suzyjohnson on 15.10.13 20:17

The only way I could envisage MM's disappearance as part of a burglary gone wrong is if a drug addict burglar panicked on finding children in the apartment and fled leaving either a door or window open, through which MM could leave to find her parents. Similarly, I have often wondered whether GM in his hurry to check the children at 9.05 pm managed to leave the patio door open through which MM left of her own accord. However this leaves too much other unexplained evidence and offers no explanation for what happened to her subsequently.

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by galena on 15.10.13 22:05

suzyjohnson wrote:The only way I could envisage MM's disappearance as part of a burglary gone wrong is if a drug addict burglar panicked on finding children in the apartment and fled leaving either a door or window open, through which MM could leave to find her parents. Similarly, I have often wondered whether GM in his hurry to check the children at 9.05 pm managed to leave the patio door open through which MM left of her own accord. However this leaves too much other unexplained evidence and offers no explanation for what happened to her subsequently.
It's always surprised me that the McCanns dismissed the possibility of Madeleine wandering off so completely - it's the first explanation most people would think of - she was big enough to walk for some distance and she might have decided to find her parents. I think they find the abduction theory easier as it focuses the blame on someone else.

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Jimmy Saville in Express tonight

Post by Guest on 15.10.13 22:08

Just look at the headline today:

Jimmy Saville: "I've done nothing wrong"

No dear, you didn't. People just thought you did

Right?

But people will not be fooled a second time, will they?

Thought not
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by Guest on 15.10.13 22:10

gbwales wrote:1 - There's not enough time for cadaverine to be released as this would have to take place after Gerry's 21:05 visit to the room. It also fails to explain (human) cadaverine found in the McCann's rental car from 20 days later and on Kate's clothing etc at the villa.
2 - Why on earth would you make the bed and take the child? Why not just run?
3 - Why was there no forensic evidence whatsoever of nay kind of break-in / entry / other person?

And by the way, I think that the most likely alternative would not be as you suggest that the McCanns "murdered" their child, but that she died of accidental causes in their absence.
Did GM say she was alive when he allegedly saw her?
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by juliet on 15.10.13 22:18

Someone has pointed out that the McCanns always said "abduction", right from the start - never "kidnap". So they somehow always knew, from the first minute, that there wouldn't be a ransom demand.
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by stumo on 15.10.13 22:47

juliet wrote:Someone has pointed out that the McCanns always said "abduction", right from the start - never "kidnap". So they somehow always knew, from the first minute, that there wouldn't be a ransom demand.
 they were  lucky....
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by bodiddly on 15.10.13 23:11

Very hard to believe that a burglar went in for cash, jewelery, electronics and such but instead decided to leave with an obviously scared and probably very vocal three your old child. He or they also stopped to re make her bed, check they had not disturbed the twins, took her toothbrush, comb etc and all other traces she existed and any that they did and then performed a perfect limbo dance through a window whilst hanging in mid air and then just to show they like to keep things neat, closed the curtains behind them. 

Sounds like something from mission impossible to me . Infact I can hear the theme music to it.
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by gbwales on 15.10.13 23:23

Portia wrote:
gbwales wrote:1 - There's not enough time for cadaverine to be released as this would have to take place after Gerry's 21:05 visit to the room. It also fails to explain (human) cadaverine found in the McCann's rental car from 20 days later and on Kate's clothing etc at the villa.
2 - Why on earth would you make the bed and take the child? Why not just run?
3 - Why was there no forensic evidence whatsoever of nay kind of break-in / entry / other person?

And by the way, I think that the most likely alternative would not be as you suggest that the McCanns "murdered" their child, but that she died of accidental causes in their absence.
Did GM say she was alive when he allegedly saw her?
Not sure I understand the point of your question there.

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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by worriedmum on 15.10.13 23:34

bodiddly wrote:Very hard to believe that a burglar went in for cash, jewelery, electronics and such but instead decided to leave with an obviously scared and probably very vocal three your old child. He or they also stopped to re make her bed, check they had not disturbed the twins, took her toothbrush, comb etc and all other traces she existed and any that they did and then performed a perfect limbo dance through a window whilst hanging in mid air and then just to show they like to keep things neat, closed the curtains behind them. 

Sounds like something from mission impossible to me . Infact I can hear the theme music to it.
But left the door at the wrong angle..
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by Five Star on 28.10.13 17:50

What about all the other break-ins in PDL, were windows/shutters used without leaving any evidence just like the McCann's flat?
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Re: "Burglary gone wrong"

Post by sami on 28.10.13 17:54

Portia wrote:
gbwales wrote:1 - There's not enough time for cadaverine to be released as this would have to take place after Gerry's 21:05 visit to the room. It also fails to explain (human) cadaverine found in the McCann's rental car from 20 days later and on Kate's clothing etc at the villa.
2 - Why on earth would you make the bed and take the child? Why not just run?
3 - Why was there no forensic evidence whatsoever of nay kind of break-in / entry / other person?

And by the way, I think that the most likely alternative would not be as you suggest that the McCanns "murdered" their child, but that she died of accidental causes in their absence.
Did GM say she was alive when he allegedly saw her?
As I remember it, he said she was lying in the recovery position.

Perhaps they were trying to cover up a robbery so took a child to throw the police off the scent. titter

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