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What should Operation Grange have done differently?

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What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by statsman on 06.10.13 16:19

I have read plenty of criticism of Operation Grange here but I've read little about how forum members would have liked Operation Grange to have gone about their tasks, bearing in mind that the Terms of Reference set down for them presumed that an abduction had taken place.

I'm hoping that what they are doing is demonstrating that the only way an abduction could have taken place is if this, this and that happened and by them doing this they can show that the odds against an abduction are so remote as to be not worth considering.

That is what I hope but I'm not ruling out in my mind the whitewash theory or the "Let's drag this out as long as we can" theory.

If someone can show me what a proper review/investigation should have been like rather than how the present one is going, or if the general consensus is that they had to go down the route that they are taking, then I think I'll be a lot clearer as to what really is happening.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Guest on 06.10.13 16:27

Moving this to the Debate section statsman.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.10.13 18:15


Op Grange Remit
 
The support and expertise proffered by the Commissioner will be provided by the Homicide & Serious Crime Command - SCD1. 
 
The activity, in the first instance, will be that of an ‘investigative review’.  This will entail a review of the whole of the investigation(s) which have been conducted in to the circumstances of Madeleine McCann’s disappearance.
 
The focus of the review will be of the material held by three main stakeholders (and in the following order of primacy);
 

  • The Portuguese Law Enforcement agencies.
  • UK Law Enforcement agencies,
  • Other private investigative agencies/staff and organisations.
 
The investigative review is intended to collate, record and analyse what has gone before. 
 
It is to examine the case and seek to determine, (as if the abduction occurred in the UK) what additional, new investigative approaches we would take and which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter. Whilst ordinarily a review has no investigative remit whatsoever- the scale and extent of this enquiry cannot permit for such an approach. It will take too long to progress to any “action stage” if activity is given wholly and solely to a review process.
 
The ‘investigative review’ will be conducted with transparency, openness and thoroughness.
 
The work will be overseen through the Gold Group management structure, which will also manage the central relationships with other key stakeholders and provide continuing oversight and direction to the investigative remit. 
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.10.13 18:19

Given that the alleged abduction of Madeleine McCann took place outside of the jurisdiction of the UK Courts, I see no reason for Operation Grange and, in my considered opinion, its inception was unnecessary. 
Furthermore, given the fact of the matter, I regard the inception of this particular operation as being an affront to the nation state of Portugal and to the law enforcement agencies of that country who are at least as capable of conducting investigations of this nature as their British counterparts. 

I find it patronising in the extreme that this 'investigative review' seeks to determine approaches "which can assist the Portuguese authorities in progressing the matter" when, as far as I am aware, neither the Portuguese government nor its police force or judiciary have made any formal request for assistance. 

In addition, given that the Metropolitan Police force's finest were, over a period of 7 days during the warm summer month of August last year, unable to detect the decomposing corpse of a missing child concealed in a loft above their heads thus potentially compromising the outcome of a trial for murder, I have no confidence in the Commissioner's ability to bring anything 'new' to this particular table.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Guest on 06.10.13 18:30

@statsman wrote:I have read plenty of criticism of Operation Grange here but I've read little about how forum members would have liked Operation Grange to have gone about their tasks, bearing in mind that the Terms of Reference set down for them presumed that an abduction had taken place.

I'm hoping that what they are doing is demonstrating that the only way an abduction could have taken place is if this, this and that happened and by them doing this they can show that the odds against an abduction are so remote as to be not worth considering.

That is what I hope but I'm not ruling out in my mind the whitewash theory or the "Let's drag this out as long as we can" theory.

If someone can show me what a proper review/investigation should have been like rather than how the present one is going, or if the general consensus is that they had to go down the route that they are taking, then I think I'll be a lot clearer as to what really is happening.
They might have refused their brief
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by statsman on 06.10.13 18:34

I understand what you are saying, ultimaThule, and I agree that OG was started for political reasons that were insulting to the state of Portugal but, once it was started under this remit, do you think that the Met could have done a better job?
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by statsman on 06.10.13 18:36

Portia,

Did they really have that option?

Can the Met really tell the Home Office to stuff it?
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Truthandjustice on 06.10.13 18:40

With the remit to investigate abduction, whatever they do, however many millions they spend, they will find nothing.  It is an insult to the Portuguese police, because they thoroughly investigated the abduction theory (against their better judgement) to no avail until lots of clues pointed in an alternative direction.  SY or their paymasters are basically saying they don't believe the PJ.

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by ultimaThule on 06.10.13 19:00

@statsman wrote:I understand what you are saying, ultimaThule, and I agree that OG was started for political reasons that were insulting to the state of Portugal but, once it was started under this remit, do you think that the Met could have done a better job?
I can think of half a dozen serving Metropolitan Police officers who would have had this particular 'investigative review' done and dusted months ago, but they are unlikely to advance very far up the greasy pole of modern day politicking policing as they will not brown nose compromise their integrity in order to gain promotion.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Seek truth on 07.10.13 7:17

They should be using the same officers that were in the case before (to make things easier)

2 1/2 years and still nothing?

How comes they don't look at the real evidence?

Get them to be questioned on live TV properly!! All the questions they need answering. 
Is there no such thing as a confession?

This is all bulls if you ask me! Are we all a bunch of idiots? But no because THEY are looking seriously stupid, I'd hurry up and let it all out before it gets more Embarassing for them, they're not thinking about the poor twins, who knows what they're going through. Didn't Madeleine hide from them days before? Well I suppose we all already know what social services is like anyway.

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by tigger on 07.10.13 7:57

@Seek truth wrote:They should be using the same officers that were in the case before (to make things easier)

2 1/2 years and still nothing?

How comes they don't look at the real evidence?

Get them to be questioned on live TV properly!! All the questions they need answering. 
Is there no such thing as a confession?

This is all bulls if you ask me! Are we all a bunch of idiots? But no because THEY are looking seriously stupid, I'd hurry up and let it all out before it gets more Embarassing for them, they're not thinking about the poor twins, who knows what they're going through. Didn't Madeleine hide from them days before? Well I suppose we all already know what social services is like anyway.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 07.10.13 8:47

Well, in answer to the original question, we don't really know anything of Operation Grange apart from the little snippets that have found their way into the media, which really, when you analyse the wording say very little indeed. We cannot have any idea what is being looked at behind closed doors, and I'd bet my last pound they are throwing in a few misleading comments as has happened in other high profile cases.

Take the Joanna Yeates case for example. That ran for quite a while, and we kept being shown snippets of CCTV of Joanna in the shop, asking people if they noticed anything in the pub she went to after work etc. They even thought it was Chris Jeffries for a while, indicating that they thought the answer lay within the building her flat was in, all the while getting the public thinking someone may have spotted her out and about and targeted her that way. But all a log the focus was right on the very doorstep. 

It is possible that the same tactic is being employed here. Statistically we know the focus should be close to home and so do the police. They know 2 dogs gave positive responses to the same places. They won't have ignored that fact. They won't have ignored the fact that people like Amaral, Tony, Pat Brown, Lee Rainbow, Ludke, the Gaspars and a whole raft of committed bloggers have been willing to step up to the plate and stake their own reputation on the line very publicly for a little girl they never knew. The power of this conviction will not have been ignored. And all the contradictions from Team McCann, these will not have been ignored. 

Plus the police have their own "experts" in psychology, body language and statement analysis, they have spoken to people in Portugal who were there at the time, they know the lies about the shutters, will have read forum analysis, the sections of the PJ files that have not been released, analysed the timelines etc.

It is impossible to say what they should have done or should be doing when we do not have any idea what they have been looking at for the last two years. 

What I DO hope they have done is thoroughly investigated all the material available which makes a good many of us doubt the official story and scrutinised it THOROUGHLY to the point where they are genuinely 100% satisfied that it leaves no substantial loose ends. Then, and ONLY then should they move towards investigating the other, far less likely avenues. 

I still hope that SY are playing a smart hand and not covering up for anyone, but sadly in this day and age cover-ups have become commonplace. I just hope for Madeleine this is not one of those occasions.

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RIPA Notices

Post by Pyewacket on 07.10.13 9:02

Perhaps OG have already had these for some time, and we can ask, but probably won't be told. These allow for the Covert surveillance of suspects or persons of interest, and can authorize the monitoring of communications (e-mail, phone etc) and also bugging to try to find evidence. Such notices covering all members of the T9 would have been a good start.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Seek truth on 07.10.13 9:19

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Well, in answer to the original question, we don't really know anything of Operation Grange apart from the little snippets that have found their way into the media, which really, when you analyse the wording say very little indeed. We cannot have any idea what is being looked at behind closed doors, and I'd bet my last pound they are throwing in a few misleading comments as has happened in other high profile cases.

Take the Joanna Yeates case for example. That ran for quite a while, and we kept being shown snippets of CCTV of Joanna in the shop, asking people if they noticed anything in the pub she went to after work etc. They even thought it was Chris Jeffries for a while, indicating that they thought the answer lay within the building her flat was in, all the while getting the public thinking someone may have spotted her out and about and targeted her that way. But all a log the focus was right on the very doorstep. 

It is possible that the same tactic is being employed here. Statistically we know the focus should be close to home and so do the police. They know 2 dogs gave positive responses to the same places. They won't have ignored that fact. They won't have ignored the fact that people like Amaral, Tony, Pat Brown, Lee Rainbow, Ludke, the Gaspars and a whole raft of committed bloggers have been willing to step up to the plate and stake their own reputation on the line very publicly for a little girl they never knew. The power of this conviction will not have been ignored. And all the contradictions from Team McCann, these will not have been ignored. 

Plus the police have their own "experts" in psychology, body language and statement analysis, they have spoken to people in Portugal who were there at the time, they know the lies about the shutters, will have read forum analysis, the sections of the PJ files that have not been released, analysed the timelines etc.

It is impossible to say what they should have done or should be doing when we do not have any idea what they have been looking at for the last two years. 

What I DO hope they have done is thoroughly investigated all the material available which makes a good many of us doubt the official story and scrutinised it THOROUGHLY to the point where they are genuinely 100% satisfied that it leaves no substantial loose ends. Then, and ONLY then should they move towards investigating the other, far less likely avenues. 

I still hope that SY are playing a smart hand and not covering up for anyone, but sadly in this day and age cover-ups have become commonplace. I just hope for Madeleine this is not one of those occasions.
How long did it take them with Joana Yeates case  though?

For the amount of evidence already out there it shouldn't take too long, I mean it happened in 2007, theyve been studying it 2 1/2 years, not forgetting it's known to the whole world already, the portuguese police did their work in one year.

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 07.10.13 9:46

Well the Joanna Yeates case didn't have celebrity endorsements, a plethora of family members making false statements on TV, almost immediate political interference and so and and so forth. I think the instantaneous hysteria and peculiar behaviour that the McCann case attracted from supporters and family, and outrageous amounts of money and publicity the family sought to achieve, visits to Pope etc all added into the mix to create a most bewildering maelstrom, hindering the investigation. We also had, lets not forget, Brian Kennedy and his ilk tampering with witnesses and the scripted mantras trotted out so from the outset everything possible was done to hinder police work. 

And SY wil be asking themselves why. Why did parents who allegedly had a child snatched buck against all advice given and create such a fire-storm of craziness around them, zipping from one country to another and getting family involved in spreading false stories on their behalf? They created a scenario that made it nigh on impossible to conduct a dignified investigation whilst all the time complaining about the investigation they did everything to hinder. 

Sidetracking issues with campaigns in America to do with Amber Alerts, cozying up to Elizabeth Smarts dad and all the rest of it just created distractions at every turn. I can't think of another case where so much effort has been made to disrupt a police investigation while complaining that not enough investigating was going on.

In one word……


LUDICROUS

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by aquila on 07.10.13 9:48

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Well the Joanna Yeates case didn't have celebrity endorsements, a plethora of family members making false statements on TV, almost immediate political interference and so and and so forth. I think the instantaneous hysteria and peculiar behaviour that the McCann case attracted from supporters and family, and outrageous amounts of money and publicity the family sought to achieve, visits to Pope etc all added into the mix to create a most bewildering maelstrom, hindering the investigation. We also had, lets not forget, Brian Kennedy and his ilk tampering with witnesses and the scripted mantras trotted out so from the outset everything possible was done to hinder police work. 

And SY wil be asking themselves why. Why did parents who allegedly had a child snatched buck against all advice given and create such a fire-storm of craziness around them, zipping from one country to another and getting family involved in spreading false stories on their behalf? They created a scenario that made it nigh on impossible to conduct a dignified investigation whilst all the time complaining about the investigation they did everything to hinder. 

Sidetracking issues with campaigns in America to do with Amber Alerts, cozying up to Elizabeth Smarts dad and all the rest of it just created distractions at every turn. I can't think of another case where so much effort has been made to disrupt a police investigation while complaining that not enough investigating was going on.

In one word……


LUDICROUS
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Guest on 07.10.13 9:48

@statsman wrote:Portia,

Did they really have that option?

Can the Met really tell the Home Office to stuff it?
I can't answer that, being unfamiliar with UK judiciary internal relations. On the Continent, with their different systems for a very large part still derived from the Napoleonic Code Penal, and with a strict separation between government and policing, they just might have been able too. 

But the very least they could have done was: not to discuss what they were doing in public
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Hicks on 07.10.13 10:00

To my mind the first job for OG should have been taking the McCann's and their friends back to the OC for a reconstruction. Andy Redwood has compared his method of investigation to that of ' peeling back the layers of an onion. If he had observed the blatant discrepancies in the reconstruction, by the people who were there at the time, he would have been at the very core of the onion first off, not to mention saving lots of taxpayers money.

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by russiandoll on 07.10.13 10:06

What about ruling out the impossible until what you have left, however improbable, must be the truth?

 Making sure, even though it might be very laborious, that you have a watertight case that you can take to prosecution?


 So you can state with confidence that you have eliminated a b c ....... 

 and that the only rational conclusion is....

 
eta.... the latest report is that the couple refused a REQUEST by SY to go to Portugal for a reconstruction.

 Sounds like they simply could not be forced.......not until they are suspected of a crime.

 If that day comes then I have no doubt they will not be able to refuse.

 So SY could not do it the simple way?

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by The Rooster on 07.10.13 10:40

Smoke and Mirrors you have described it as it was and I suspect still is when you say in your post (I've selected the words appropriate to what I am trying to say - hope you don't mind)...

 "... from the outset everything possible was done to hinder police work.  SY wil be asking themselves why. Why did parents create a scenario that made it nigh on impossible to conduct a dignified investigation whilst all the time complaining about the investigation they did everything to hinder."

I know a person involved with the McCanns and their private detectives and asked them whilst at Dinner over 4 years ago if they thought the McCanns were culpable in the dissappearance of their daughter.  I was surprised when they replied very honestly that they didn't know whether they were or not but were able to say that no matter what they did to try and help them, Gerry McCann was always had his own agenda and was always one step ahead of them... as you correctly comment on in your post Smoke and Mirrors, "doing everything possible to hinder them." It's little wonder they pulled their assistance eventually.

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 07.10.13 10:53

@The Rooster wrote:Smoke and Mirrors you have described it as it was and I suspect still is when you say in your post (I've selected the words appropriate to what I am trying to say - hope you don't mind)...

 "... from the outset everything possible was done to hinder police work.  SY wil be asking themselves why. Why did parents create a scenario that made it nigh on impossible to conduct a dignified investigation whilst all the time complaining about the investigation they did everything to hinder."

I know a person involved with the McCanns and their private detectives and asked them whilst at Dinner over 4 years ago if they thought the McCanns were culpable in the dissappearance of their daughter.  I was surprised when they replied very honestly that they didn't know whether they were or not but were able to say that no matter what they did to try and help them, Gerry McCann was always had his own agenda and was always one step ahead of them... as you correctly comment on in your post Smoke and Mirrors, "doing everything possible to hinder them." It's little wonder they pulled their assistance eventually.
I think it forms a large part of why we all follow this case 6 years on, the WTF moments are all too frequent. When someone very self-assuredly acts as if they and they alone have been appointed by an unseen master to control every facet of a scenario, it halts a smooth procession of events. I'm sure we've all met and known people similar, who seem to bulldoze along creating obstacles for everyone else, wasting time whilst others try and navigate around the obstacles so the original focus of any action seems somewhat lost or blurred. These people too, are rarely called to account, but frustrate those around them with their bombastic personalities. They disrupt momentum, create noise, constantly demand justification for the action of others whilst taking no personal responsibility for cock ups and chaos.

As the man said himself "confusion is good".

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Obstructing the Investigation

Post by Pyewacket on 07.10.13 12:50

As I mentioned a few posts ago, elsewhere on the site in relation to the above.....Discredit the Evidence and/or Discredit and Undermine the Credibility of any Witness.....But most important of all "Muddy the Waters" It would appear that all these have been done over the past several years.
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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by aquila on 07.10.13 12:54

@Pyewacket wrote:As I mentioned a few posts ago, elsewhere on the site in relation to the above.....Discredit the Evidence and/or Discredit and Undermine the Credibility of any Witness.....But most important of all "Muddy the Waters" It would appear that all these have been done over the past several years.
...and that is what TM have done so perfectly for 6 years. Why would it be any different now?

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Re: What should Operation Grange have done differently?

Post by Pyewacket on 07.10.13 13:08

Because Aquila, IMO the game may be coming (hopefully) to a close. There will be no more soft media interviews, public opinion has been guaged and it is now obvious they don't enjoy the support they once did. Of the 12 Comments allowed through the other day at Mailonline the majority seriously doubted their tale and received literally hundreds of Likes ! 

I too think that SY are playing a clever game and believe that there are a few people sweating. A question for them to ask themselves is do they cough now and take the benefit of helping the inquiry in receiving a reduced sentence or take it to the bitter end and suffer the full weight of the law.
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