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Post by MarleneP on 27.11.13 18:19

@tiny wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:martinbrunt ‏
[ltr]@skymartinbrunt[/ltr]



2h
#madeleine Latest hearing in McCann v Amaral libel trial has ended. Back again 7 Jan. Judge still not decided if McCanns can give evidence.

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Martins slipping,he usually calls the mccanns kate and Gerry,naughty boy
... since he is an E-Fit ;-)
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 18:26

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
 
Thankfully both he and it are long gone.
As I recall, the ex Duchess of Pork was reputed to have spent a lot of time under pyramid edifices but it doesn't seem to have prevented her going off.   big grin
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Post by Guest on 27.11.13 18:42

@ultimaThule wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
 
Thankfully both he and it are long gone.
As I recall, the ex Duchess of Pork was reputed to have spent a lot of time under pyramid edifices but it doesn't seem to have prevented her going off.   big grin
Cann it!
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Post by aiyoyo on 27.11.13 18:45

@tiny wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:martinbrunt ‏
[ltr]@skymartinbrunt[/ltr]



2h
#madeleine Latest hearing in McCann v Amaral libel trial has ended. Back again 7 Jan. Judge still not decided if McCanns can give evidence.

Expand
Martins slipping,he usually calls the mccanns kate and Gerry,naughty boy
Seeing that the Judge has up till 7 January to make up her mind, there's plenty time till then to inform respective lawyers of her decision.
If she should grant permission for them to speak, it would take place ahead of closing statements on 7 Jan I would imagine, so next court session would definitely be highlight of the trial - interesting times ahead one way or another.

I hope the Judge approves for them to speak, as I would very much like to see how Mr & Mrs are going to hang themselves on the stand under OATH.
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Post by Daisy on 27.11.13 18:48

@Portia wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
 
Thankfully both he and it are long gone.
As I recall, the ex Duchess of Pork was reputed to have spent a lot of time under pyramid edifices but it doesn't seem to have prevented her going off.   big grin
Cann it!
You still haven't explained what 'Cann it' means.

____________________
“Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.”   

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“And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” 

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Post by diatribe on 27.11.13 18:58

@aiyoyo wrote:

I hope the Judge approves for them to speak, as I would very much like to see how Mr & Mrs are going to hang themselves on the stand under OATH.
Neither of the McCanns will go within a zillion light yrs. of any situation where there is the remotest iota of possibility that they could be cross examined on matters relating to their daughter's disappearance. There's more chance of N Korea becoming the US 51st state, or even the Peoples' Republik of Britain denouncing the monarchy than the aforementioned occuring. There may even be  less chance of the McCanns ever giving evidence at any court proceedings where they can be be cross examined than the Bank of England admitting that it is a Ponzi scam.
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 18:59

Perhaps Portia is referring to canning as being a more effective way of preserving fruit and other items than pyramids, Daisy big grin
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Post by Guest on 27.11.13 19:13

@ultimaThule wrote:Perhaps Portia is referring to canning as being a more effective way of preserving fruit and other items than pyramids, Daisy big grin
MC Canning it
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 19:15

@diatribe wrote:I don't know much about the laws of libel, but surely if one wishes to testify at any kind of trial, then both the defence and prosecution have the right to cross examine one's witness testimony. The only instance I can think of where the aforementioned could give evidence without subjecting themselves to cross examination is in a criminal trial where the defendant could make a dock statement. Even this may no longer be permissable since the right hon. A B'liar and Nulabor drove a coach and horses through the British 'Justice' system and consigned the Magna Carta to the 'anals' of history.

If I am correct in my assumption, there is no conceivable way that the McCanns would ever give evidence  where they would render themselves liable to cross examination.This would particularly include any subsequent criminal proceedings that may be brought against them by the portugese authorities. Even throughout their multitude of press conferences and toothless chat show appearances, the programmes would have been pre-recorded, the questions pre-arranged and edited by their lawyers. Otherwise, even the most subservient and compliant of hosts such as Richard and Judy would have been champing at the bit to ask them if they still thought the shutters on their daughter's bedroom window had been jemmied in order to gain entry and why they changed their story of the 'abductor's' method of entry to the patio doors after they discovered it was a physical impossibility for the shutters to have been disturbed from the outside without leaving any forensic trace of a forced entry.

Why, poor ole Gerry would be panicing and discarding his ear phones faster than the politicos rowing for shore after their expenses cruise liner had sprung a leak. The difference being of course, one simply can't get away with such childish behaviour when giving evidence under oath in a court of law. Their giving evidence would be akin to a rabbit being caught in the glaring headlights of an oncoming double decker bus.
As I understand it, should their application to appear as witnesses to their plaint be granted, any questions put to them by the defence must be directed to the judge who will determine whether they are pertinent to the matter in hand before putting them to the McCanns who are unlikely, therefore, to undergo any rigorous cross-examination of the type they may expect should they take the stand in a criminal court of law.

Despite not being the sharpest tool in the box, GM prides himself on his intellect and I suspect he would be unphased at giving evidence in these conditions and, more particularly, as the need for an interpreter slows the proceedings thus providing additional time to think.  As for KM, her response to questions she doesn't deign to answer is well known. 

Although neither McCann has any compunction about lying through their teeth, if the judge sets a date on which she requires both of them to appear before her it remains to be seen whether they have the bottle to step onto Portuguese soil together, an act which they have avoided doing since the beginning of the trial back in September.
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 19:28

@Portia wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Perhaps Portia is referring to canning as being a more effective way of preserving fruit and other items than pyramids, Daisy big grin
MC Canning it
duh  Of course!!!  The ancient art of McCanning where lies are preserved for precisely as long as they are expedient, and where an endless supply of unopened tins crammed to the brim with them are readily available should any be found to be past their swallow sell by date.
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Post by Guest on 27.11.13 19:42

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Portia wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:Perhaps Portia is referring to canning as being a more effective way of preserving fruit and other items than pyramids, Daisy big grin
MC Canning it
duh  Of course!!!  The ancient art of McCanning where lies are preserved for precisely as long as they are expedient, and where an endless supply of unopened tins crammed to the brim with them are readily available should any be found to be past their swallow sell by date.
Kissy kissy

You got it

friends
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 19:52

thumbsup @Portia
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Post by Praiaaa on 27.11.13 20:00

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
 
Thankfully both he and it are long gone.
off topics like this make the forum the lovely human place it is! big grin 
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Post by Praiaaa on 27.11.13 20:02

@diatribe wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:

I hope the Judge approves for them to speak, as I would very much like to see how Mr & Mrs are going to hang themselves on the stand under OATH.
Neither of the McCanns will go within a zillion light yrs. of any situation where there is the remotest iota of possibility that they could be cross examined on matters relating to their daughter's disappearance. There's more chance of N Korea becoming the US 51st state, or even the Peoples' Republik of Britain denouncing the monarchy than the aforementioned occuring. .
big grin  loving those examples!
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Post by Guest on 27.11.13 20:08

@Praiaaa wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
 
Thankfully both he and it are long gone.
off topics like this make the forum the lovely human place it is!: biggrin: 
***
LOL
Oh, yes, lovely forum - OT and OT [as in Off Topic and On Topic]. And ex-s can be big fun. I remember, saying to my girlfriends about mine once: "If he put on weight, it wasn't a good sign. If he worked hard to lose it quickly, it was a bad sign. If he was learning yet another foreign language, I knew I had lost another round for a while ...".
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Post by Liz Eagles on 27.11.13 20:14

Châtelaine wrote:
@Praiaaa wrote:
No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
 
Thankfully both he and it are long gone.
off topics like this make the forum the lovely human place it is!: biggrin: 
***
LOL
Oh, yes, lovely forum - OT and OT [as in Off Topic and On Topic]. And ex-s can be big fun. I remember, saying to my girlfriends about mine once: "If he put on weight, it wasn't  a good sign. If he worked hard to lose it quickly, it was a bad sign. If he was learning yet another foreign language, I knew I had lost another round for a while ...".
My ex coughs when he lies. He can't help it. big grin
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Post by J4MM on 27.11.13 20:42

My ex lies when he opens his mouth. sad
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 21:06

@J4MM wrote:My ex lies when he opens his mouth. sad
huh  Is he related to the McCanns?
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Post by Tony Bennett on 27.11.13 21:46

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Off topic - so please excuse me! - but there was a lot of talk in the 1970s that pyramids had healing qualities and if you put fruit inside one, it wouldn't go bad.
 
My ex who was as mad as the March hare proceeded to build a giant pyramid in the back garden! 
I have a confession to make - indeed NFWTD I wonder if we read the same book, was it 'Mysterious Britain'? or something like that. I would have read it early 1970s.

Anyway, there was a chapter that said that if you preserved a razor blade at a certain angle - 30 degrees or so IIRC - it would always remain sharp. Due to the pranic forces, the ley lines of energy, something like that.  It might have been about pyramids as well.

So convincing was that book (I believed a lot of strange things in those days, and no doubt some will say I still do) that I gave it a try.

It didn't work.

I often wondered if I'd got the angle slightly wrong - or may be it should have faced east instead of north

____________________

Dr Martin Roberts: "The evidence is that these are the pjyamas Madeleine wore on holiday in Praia da Luz. They were photographed and the photo handed to a press agency, who released it on 8 May, as the search for Madeleine continued. The McCanns held up these same pyjamas at two press conferences on 5 & 7June 2007. How could Madeleine have been abducted?"

Amelie McCann (aged 2): "Maddie's jammies!".  

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Post by diatribe on 27.11.13 21:50

@ultimaThule wrote:


As I understand it, should their application to appear as witnesses to their plaint be granted, any questions put to them by the defence must be directed to the judge who will determine whether they are pertinent to the matter in hand before putting them to the McCanns who are unlikely, therefore, to undergo any rigorous cross-examination of the type they may expect should they take the stand in a criminal court of law.

Despite not being the sharpest tool in the box, GM prides himself on his intellect and I suspect he would be unphased at giving evidence in these conditions and, more particularly, as the need for an interpreter slows the proceedings thus providing additional time to think.  As for KM, her response to questions she doesn't deign to answer is well known. 

Do you mean giving evidence on the same sort of basis as the Levenson enquiry? As previously stated, I know little about libel law and by default the rules of evidence etc.

I however do tend to remember Jonathan Aitken having to withdraw his libel suit after intense cross examination by the late George Carmen QC and subsequently being sentenced to 18 months imp. for attempting to pervert the course of justice. Surely a judge cannot restrict a particular counsel to what questions can or cannot be put to a witness, with the proviso that they are relevant to the case, or maybe portugese law works differently.

I suppose it is a possibility that Gerry might give evidence if the defence were restricted to only questioning him in relation to matters of stress he states the book has caused him etc. Although that would be akin to a prosecuting counsel being limited to only asking a bank robber questions relating to the hardship being remanded in custody pending trial had caused him.

Seriously though, I would have thought that the defence would be able ask him what parts of Goncalo's book had caused him stress, which parts he thinks are untrue, etc, etc which would lead to why did he change his story as to how the alleged abductor gained entry etc. etc. Its a minefield which I don't think even the likes of Bernie Madoff et al would care to explain to their investors.big grin
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 22:15

@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:


As I understand it, should their application to appear as witnesses to their plaint be granted, any questions put to them by the defence must be directed to the judge who will determine whether they are pertinent to the matter in hand before putting them to the McCanns who are unlikely, therefore, to undergo any rigorous cross-examination of the type they may expect should they take the stand in a criminal court of law.
Do you mean giving evidence on the same sort of basis as the Levenson enquiry? As previously stated, I know little about libel law and by default the rules of evidence etc.

I however do tend to remember Jonathan Aitken having to withdraw his libel suit after intense cross examination by the late George Carmen QC and subsequently being sentenced to 18 months imp. for attempting to pervert the course of justice. Surely a judge cannot restrict a particular counsel to what questions can or cannot be put to a witness, with the proviso that they are relevant to the case, or maybe portugese law works differently.
Jonathan Aitken! That was a good one!  big grin  As was the case of a certain Jeffrey Archer who, unaccountably, continues to wear ermine despite having been a guest of Her Maj at one of her public establishments for the detention of offenders.

It appears that in this particuar libel trial, should the McCanns appear as witnesses all questions from the defence will be put to the judge who will decide whether to put all/any of them to the plaintiffs, and vice versa should Dr Amaral be allowed to take the stand.  

There was some talk of the McCanns applying to give their testimony in writing, presumably in their absence, but from what little I have gleaned of Portuguese libel law it would appear this won't be allowed unless there are particulary pressing extenuating circumstances.  However, any decision rests with the judge and what she says goes - until such time as it's appealed.

From reading the transcripts to date, it appears the judge is intent on restricting questions to the matter before her and, as she is the arbiter of what either side is allowed to ask, it's unlikely any questions of the type we'd like answered will slip through her net, albeit I'm happy to report that the McCanns' witnesses have scored more than a few own goals and the defence continue to get the ball past the plaintiff's goalkeeper.    Poor Izzy.  I wonder if she had any idea what she was letting herself in for winkwink
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Post by Liz Eagles on 27.11.13 22:22

@ultimaThule wrote:
@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:


As I understand it, should their application to appear as witnesses to their plaint be granted, any questions put to them by the defence must be directed to the judge who will determine whether they are pertinent to the matter in hand before putting them to the McCanns who are unlikely, therefore, to undergo any rigorous cross-examination of the type they may expect should they take the stand in a criminal court of law.
Do you mean giving evidence on the same sort of basis as the Levenson enquiry? As previously stated, I know little about libel law and by default the rules of evidence etc.

I however do tend to remember Jonathan Aitken having to withdraw his libel suit after intense cross examination by the late George Carmen QC and subsequently being sentenced to 18 months imp. for attempting to pervert the course of justice. Surely a judge cannot restrict a particular counsel to what questions can or cannot be put to a witness, with the proviso that they are relevant to the case, or maybe portugese law works differently.
Jonathan Aitken! That was a good one!  big grin  As was the case of a certain Jeffrey Archer who, unaccountably, continues to wear ermine despite having been a guest of Her Maj at one of her public establishments for the detention of offenders.

It appears that in this particuar libel trial, should the McCanns appear as witnesses all questions from the defence will be put to the judge who will decide whether to put all/any of them to the plaintiffs, and vice versa should Dr Amaral be allowed to take the stand.  

There was some talk of the McCanns applying to give their testimony in writing, presumably in their absence, but from what little I have gleaned of Portuguese libel law it would appear this won't be allowed unless there are particulary pressing extenuating circumstances.  However, any decision rests with the judge and what she says goes - until such time as it's appealed.

From reading the transcripts to date, it appears the judge is intent on restricting questions to the matter before her and, as she is the arbiter of what either side is allowed to ask, it's unlikely any questions of the type we'd like answered will slip through her net, albeit I'm happy to report that the McCanns' witnesses have scored more than a few own goals and the defence continue to get the ball past the plaintiff's goalkeeper.    Poor Izzy.  I wonder if she had any idea what she was letting herself in for winkwink
@ ultimaThule

Please forgive this little digression but you mentioned today that the judge in the current libel trial is the same judge that banned GA's book. It isn't.
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 22:42

@diatribe wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
Despite not being the sharpest tool in the box, GM prides himself on his intellect and I suspect he would be unphased at giving evidence in these conditions and, more particularly, as the need for an interpreter slows the proceedings thus providing additional time to think.  As for KM, her response to questions she doesn't deign to answer is well known. 
I suppose it is a possibility that Gerry might give evidence if the defence were restricted to only questioning him in relation to matters of stress he states the book has caused him etc. Although that would be akin to a prosecuting counsel being limited to only asking a bank robber questions relating to the hardship being remanded in custody pending trial had caused him.

Seriously though, I would have thought that the defence would be able ask him what parts of Goncalo's book had caused him stress, which parts he thinks are untrue, etc, etc which would lead to why did he change his story as to how the alleged abductor gained entry etc. etc. Its a minefield which I don't think even the likes of Bernie Madoff et al would care to explain to their investors.big grin
When I read your post it seemed appropriate to break it into 2 parts rather than respond to it as a whole as, apart from any other consideration, it's hopefully easier to read than a massive amount of words hogging the page smilie   

As I see it, any claim of libel in the McCanns' plaint was dealt with at the time of Dr Amaral's appeal against the injunction imposed  on the sale of his book.  

The Appellate court's well-reasoned judgement, which effectively states that if anyone had been libelled it was Dr Amaral, was upheld by the Supreme Court of Portugal and what is being decided now is the extent to which publication/sales of the book and the airing of the tv documentary on which it was based have caused stress to the McCanns, or have interfered with/impinged on their human rights or somesuch*.

It seems to me your analogy is correct and I doubt that GM will have any qualms about taking the stand in circumstances where the judge is unlikely to allow questions which directly touch on the events of 3 May 2007.

*I must emphasise that, as yet, I've been unable to locate a copy of the McCanns' c36 page writ served on the defendants back in c2008/9 and if anyone can point me in the right direction to find it online I'd be much obliged.
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Post by notlongnow on 27.11.13 22:43

Goodness this libel case seems very dragged out.
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Post by ultimaThule on 27.11.13 22:47

aquila wrote:@ ultimaThule

Please forgive this little digression but you mentioned today that the judge in the current libel trial is the same judge that banned GA's book. It isn't.
In which case I must apologise for implying or stating that the current judge is one and the same who saw fit to ban the sale of Dr Amaral book and order that all copies should be given to the plaintiffs.  

Do you happen to have the name of the judge who made that order, aquila?
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