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Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by DurhamGuy1967 on 02.11.13 7:39

@Curioser wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@whmon wrote:One thing that we hare all avoided is pure evilness. We have not looked at (but possibly thought of) the idea of pure evil. When the story first broke people believed the given story because the parents were doctors. At the same time we are aware of other medical professionals: Shipman, Beverly Alleit (sp) etc . who have surprised us with their crimes. There are also cases of couples such as the Wests' and Brady/Hindley where a couple have got together and acted out their dark thoughts. Bear in mind that the McCanns are not 'upper middle class' as is widely reported but are from working class backgrounds who have managed to elevate themselves through university (the same as myself.) Despite having a level 8 qualification and being a local employer I still believe I am working class, the McCanns are too.
I think it has been discussed at length. There are all sorts of theories on here including that they intended to sell the girl, that they are a paedo ring who used the children, that they came on the holiday to kill Madeleine. You can find them in other threads. I don't really buy those theories although I acknowledge they could be right Truth is often stranger than fiction. But perhaps you could find them if you want to explore that avenue
(snip)

Fwiw if GM, or anyone else for that matter, had picked up Madeleine's dead body after it had lain on the floor behind the sofa for some 2 hours and swung round with her corpse in their arms, any blood shed either before or at the time she died would be congealed to a point of solidification and there would be no blood spatter on the wall.

In order to better understand what may have taken place during the week commencing 29 May 2007, we should discuss the concept of pure evilness which whmon has eluded to at length and, in the meantime, I repeat that I will never buy into any theory which has the McCanns and/or their friends panicked into disposing of a dead body.
Hey ultimaThule, you make some good points there and you're right we should look at all the possibilities. I only mean that I'm not keen to do it in this thread because this thread is about the theory on page 1 and 7. The other theories have their own threads, as they should. I don't expect to change your mind about the panic. I'm just exploring a different idea.

Re congealed blood, the fluid may not have been blood. It may have been brain fluid or urine. Ick.
Keela only indicates human blood but she only needs the smallest amount.. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EDDIE-KEELA.htm I know body fluids is sometimes used in descriptions but Keela only indicates human blood. However the blood could ( i'm not saying it is so but it could ) be unrelated to the Cadaver scent, especially that on the wall. It just takes someone with a nose bleed in the apartment at sometime.

also regarding the blood there is the assumption there must have been a lot as it had run under the tiles, But if a small amount was washed off the tiles this could cause the blood under the tiles. There was no indication of blood from the smithman sighting. No DNA was possible so it was a poor sample. Could the Cadaver scent have been washed from the middle of the room to underneath the tile under the couch in the same way?  I guess only Martin Grimes could answer that.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Estelle on 02.11.13 8:33

@tigger wrote:
@Varriott wrote:
@Searcher wrote:Varriott - in case you havent seen it, this 2 May timeline is really worth reading.  I think it is a brilliant piece of analysis and worth keeping in the loop.  I wonder what GA would make of it - not sure but I seem to have a memory of a quote by him that refers to "3 May or before".  Can't be sure but it would certainly be interesting to know.  splat
Wow.  I've read every word of Dr Martin Roberts at least twice.  I'm a big fan of the Blacksmith Bureau and think Pat Brown is brilliant.  But that May 2nd scenario is the first time it all fell into place.  I feel like mystery solved.  I can move on now and worry about something else.  Thanks, Searcher, for pointing it out.  My question is what's left for us to do?  Justice is out of our hands.  Someone needs to talk, and I don't see that happening.
Can you give a link to this 2nd May timeline?
I think this is it. 

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id436.html

TIME AND TIDE

By Dr Martin Roberts
25 February 2013

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 02.11.13 9:02

@Searcher wrote:
candyfloss wrote:
@Curioser wrote:
@Searcher wrote:I am very interested in 2nd May.spin
Have you seen this? http://unterdenteppichgekehrt.blogspot.com.au/p/theory-english.html
It's here as well, 88 page thread

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2588-theory?highlight=theory
Varriott - in case you havent seen it, this 2 May timeline is really worth reading.  I think it is a brilliant piece of analysis and worth keeping in the loop.  I wonder what GA would make of it - not sure but I seem to have a memory of a quote by him that refers to "3 May or before".  Can't be sure but it would certainly be interesting to know.  splat
Hi Tigger; two links above, thanks to Curioser and Candyfloss.  Have to say - rather as Varriott felt - at last, a timeline that makes complete sense.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 02.11.13 9:17

Just to say thankyou to Estelle for the McCannfile link to Dr. Martin Roberts' timeline.  I have not read this before and it's very welcome.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by bellum on 02.11.13 9:39

about the mobile phones: I wonder if the police localized a call from Gerry, when he was seen by the Smiths.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Estelle on 02.11.13 10:21

@Searcher wrote:Just to say thankyou to Estelle for the McCannfile link to Dr. Martin Roberts' timeline.  I have not read this before and it's very welcome.
Hi Searcher, I had not read it before either.  It's very interesting as it goes along with my own theory of a much earlier death (as early as the Monday) once you have looked at the creche records and mobile phone records.

Here is a snippet:

"There can be only two perspectives on the movement of children into and out of a playgroup, that of the parents on the one hand and the facility on the other. If Madeleine were required for some significant purpose shortly after 3.30 p.m. that Monday, then why deposit her at the creche at all? For the sake of fifteen minutes she could more easily have remained with one or other parent or temporary minder, as the kids' club was not exactly en route to the younger group's location. If however staff at the kids' club thought it expedient to request Madeleine's urgent removal for whatever reason, then this eventuality would later have been reflected, surely, in one or other statement given by those staff concerned. It is not.

The only two sensible explanations for Madeleine McCann's extraordinarily brief sojourn at the Mark Warner kids' club that Monday afternoon can therefore be discounted.

Which means that the true explanation is an unusual one."
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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 02.11.13 11:07

Thankyou Estelle; it just feels at a gut level very important that these questions are coming forward again.  Amazing work from people who have read, researched, and won't give up on the truth.  It is also fascinating to see so much analytical and logical work on the material, available to read, which is not going to disappear or be forgotten.

I could imagine that in a court of law with a top QC, the given story would unravel in layers at a touch.  That is my hope for Madeleine and for some justice.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Estelle on 02.11.13 11:36

@Searcher wrote:Thankyou Estelle; it just feels at a gut level very important that these questions are coming forward again.  Amazing work from people who have read, researched, and won't give up on the truth.  It is also fascinating to see so much analytical and logical work on the material, available to read, which is not going to disappear or be forgotten.

I could imagine that in a court of law with a top QC, the given story would unravel in layers at a touch.  That is my hope for Madeleine and for some justice.
IMO they will have the get the timeline correct (if they are going to revise it), before they bother to re-interview any witnesses. IMO the secret to solving this case lies in the mobile phone and creche records and getting the correct time of death.
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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 02.11.13 11:45

Yes, and the amount of phone activity on 2 May is of particular interest.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Varriott on 02.11.13 13:25

@Searcher wrote:Yes, and the amount of phone activity on 2 May is of particular interest.
My guess is that even if they have incriminating phone records, it would only be circumstantial evidence.  The May 2nd timeline is an incredibly coherent story, if this were a crime novel.  But to get a conviction in a court, where defendants get the benefit of the doubt, it would not stand up.  All these discrepancies would need to be used to pressure the T8 (minus Webster) to break the pact, if a pact exists.  And it would take more than one person or even one couple to break ranks.  Because otherwise, it would just be the McCanns' words against theirs.  Assuming that the May 2nd timeline is a good approximation of the truth (and of course we can't know), then I just don't see how the combined forces of the PJ and SY can ever convict anyone of a crime - short of a tearful confession.  I hate to say it, but it's game, set and match to the McCanns at this point.  There can never be justice when it comes to a dead child.  For me, feeling that I finally understand what's behind this circus gives me some sort of peace.  The only remaining mystery is why the UK press talks about their innocence as if it's an established fact.  Why they use the word abduction (instead of alleged abduction or the neutral disappearance).  The press has a lot to answer for, but not just in this case.
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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 02.11.13 15:58

@Varriott wrote:
@Searcher wrote:Yes, and the amount of phone activity on 2 May is of particular interest.
My guess is that even if they have incriminating phone records, it would only be circumstantial evidence.  The May 2nd timeline is an incredibly coherent story, if this were a crime novel.  But to get a conviction in a court, where defendants get the benefit of the doubt, it would not stand up.  All these discrepancies would need to be used to pressure the T8 (minus Webster) to break the pact, if a pact exists.  And it would take more than one person or even one couple to break ranks.  Because otherwise, it would just be the McCanns' words against theirs.  Assuming that the May 2nd timeline is a good approximation of the truth (and of course we can't know), then I just don't see how the combined forces of the PJ and SY can ever convict anyone of a crime - short of a tearful confession.  I hate to say it, but it's game, set and match to the McCanns at this point.  There can never be justice when it comes to a dead child.  For me, feeling that I finally understand what's behind this circus gives me some sort of peace.  The only remaining mystery is why the UK press talks about their innocence as if it's an established fact.  Why they use the word abduction (instead of alleged abduction or the neutral disappearance).  The press has a lot to answer for, but not just in this case.
Interesting points indeed, Varriott.  I do have some hope, however,  in the British judicial system.  The whole point of the court of law is to put forward both the case for the defence as well as the case for prosecution.  From that argument, and in presenting the material fairly, a jury comes to a conclusion.  While the rules of evidence may be rightly stringent, much of the material analysed and discussed here on this forum - and by other serious writers/analysts - would not, in my view, escape unchallenged in the hands of a competent prosecution lawyer.  That is my hope, because if it is the only way that these questions can be answered - and they are questions which seem to increase over time, rather than decrease - then I truly hope and pray that they will indeed form part of a court hearing.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by columbostogeys on 02.11.13 16:09

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Curioser wrote:Oh well. I'm sorry I've upset some of you but I'm not putting myself at risk of being damned. Aquila, I'm not asking you to buy anything. Please ignore the thread if I offend you.

I did work on it. I simplified it, cleaned it up, took all the dialogue out and sent it off. It's probably just rehashed crapola anyway, ultimaThule. It's probably all been thought of before but I just haven't found it. The marble floor is absolutely a major character. 

But nevermind. I'm not asking permission to post. I asking for advice and I'm happy to wait for that advice.
I could have polished several acres of marble flooring and then some in the time I've spent imagining what took place in Apartment 5A, Curioser yes

It's the old 'was he pushed or did he fall' conundrum.  If a child falls victim to accidental death by, say, falling and hitting its head on a hard surface, why would a parent seek to cover it up by claiming it had been abducted by strangers unless, of course, some act of neglect or negligence on their part caused him/her to believe they would be to held to account by the police/judiciary or condemned by their peers/public opinion?

I found it distinctly peculiar that, although photographs of the child clearly showing her face were allegedly taken on the holiday and readily available for distribution, the McCanns chose to issue a much older photograph of a younger Madeleine highlighting the now famous (trademarked?) 'colomba' when they must surely have been aware, or been made aware, that drawing attention to this particular identifying mark would inevitably put their child at risk from her alleged abductor(s).

At some point I began to question whether the child has/had a colomba; is it noted on her birth/medical records?  Could this have been a piece of photoshop wizardry intended to alleviate any fears the abductor(s) may have had about being seen in public with her?

In addition, Madeleine's height as given in her missing persons description was another source of curiousity as 90cm is considerably lower than the average attained by white british females who are just a week away from attaining their 4th birthday.

These and other ponderings led me speculate on how easy it would be to spirit, say, a young prepubescent girl dressed as a boy out of the country under the very noses of those who were searching for her particularly if all travelling was done at night while the child asleep, either naturally or with the aid of medication.  

I also began to wonder how many passport applications for young children the McCanns and their close pals/colleagues have countersigned during the course of their careers. 

A further source of perpetual curiousity for me has been what became of the reportedly Canadian nanny who was allegedly scheduled to accompany the McCanns on their family holiday but cancelled prior to departure. Did her name feature on the booking form? Why hasn't s/he come forward to laud her employers' responsible and caring parenting skills or, conversely, dish the dirt on them? Did s/he sign a confidentiality agreement or receive generous severance pay?

It's fair to say I've whiled away many an hour when I should have been engaged in more useful pursuits imagining wild, weird, and wonderful ways in which this child mayhave seemingly disappeared off the face the earth but I always return to the inescapable conclusion that only one person, or several as the case may be, knows the truth of what happened to Madeleine McCann on or before the night of May 3rd 2007 and thereafter.
Strangely enough the photos of the child are all SO DIFFERENT. Some just dont even look like her. My grandson was the EXACT same age as Maddy when she went missing. He hardly changed from 2 to 4 years old, just got taller.

I can find tons of photos of her now and really so many just seem to be of another girl, almost like she too was a twin. I did find it odd. On one photo she looks tall and willowy and on another supposed to be the same age she seems to have shrunk..

Yes the Canadian nanny i was wondering if i had actually dreamt her lol....was she real or imaginary?

One thing for me. No way would Mrs McCann be on her own with 3 children under 4 no way. Not with a set of twins as well. Its really hard work and they both had more then enough money to afford one. So where was the nanny what happened to her.

I wonder if we will ever get the truth....

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by columbostogeys on 02.11.13 16:30

@Curioser wrote:It would have been great if they had the resources to do a thorough and comprehensive analysis of phone traffic in the area but I imagine they didn't. They also had to explore every lead that was suggested including the abduction, paedo rings, dreamed of boats, cliff bags, even psychic reports. They had a lot on their plate. I think large data analysis has come a long way since 2007 and I hope they're feeding all the pings into a nice big computer.

Russiandoll, I don't understand why they would leave her behind the sofa if they knew she had been hurt. Petermac suggested that possibly they didn't check her when they came back from dinner on Wednesday night. Perhaps Kate didn't turn the light on becuase she was upset with Gerry and M was already behind the sofa then. It's another theory. A strong one. But I'm interested in exploring the same night theory here.

I think you're all right. The PJ were polite and helpful and already under pressure I think from the UK. They also had a former lawyer with them so they may have had advice. Keep it vague. Don't be sure of anything. Mix up details. If in doubt, say nothing. If they had been brutal perhaps they would have cracked it, perhaps not. Maybe they all would have clammed up totally and insisted on representation.
Nothing wrong with your theory.

On another tact. Gerry went and checked his kids, maddy was asleep he then went out and and bumped into Jez. In the meantime the noise of him using toilet etc, woke the child up. She went into the sitting room and could hear her dad maybe and she got onto the settee to look out window, fell off feel behind the settee hitting her head very hard....

Mum comes in 10pm finds her missing, panic ensues....everyone looking cant find her outside etc, mum stays in apartment.

The police were called and they came and took a statement and asked questions and a search team were outside looking. EVERYONE was outside looking for what they thought was just a missing child. The police hardly bothered with the inside of the apartment.....

What if the child wasnt found untli much later?

Perhaps the mother doing another look suddenly sees her behind the settee.....they were inside most of the night others were searching.

Is this far fetched NO.

A child went missing in UK two nights ago. The police were called, the parents looked everywhere, they even put up the police helicopter the lot.

So it could happen that the child lay where she fell and no one had noticed, as they were looking for her OUTSIDE.  IF this was the case the parents then had time to think about what to do. They knew that they would be in trouble with authorities, so continued with the abduction theme and actually fuelled it even more. I am not convinced their friends were involved to be honest.

Its so simple really. The child was put in a bag placed in the wardrobe and in the morning when the police had them moved out of the apartment to start forensics they took her with them. You have to remember we are dealing with two experienced doctors here who are not prone to panic.

So simple. The body could have been kept in a large suitcase wrapped in a pink blanket covered in sand and shut tight. This would mummify and dehydrate and the body would not leave an odour.

There was a case in Japan where the guy put the body in the bath he had on his verandah and it was filled with sand. Sand was used in Eygpt to mummify and preserve bodies.

Anyway the parents were not suspect they could move around freely, they were not watched 247 were they. A small body could be hid ANYWHERE.

I think the scenario has to be simple otherwise too much can go wrong.....

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Abbotskerswell-missing-boy-s-mum-terror/story-20017339-detail/story.html

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 04.11.13 12:22

Hey Colombo, it's not far fetched that they didn't find her immediately I think and that article supports that idea. But your scenario relies on their statements about time and those statements are not consistent. That's why I discounted them. If it happened that night then there had to be a period of 90 to 120 minutes where she lay behind the sofa in her own blood. I was trying to work out how that could have happened. Even if you go on their timelines the time between when GM saw Jez and the time when they stopped searching was much less than that. 

The idea of the cadaver scent migrating has already been discussed and dismissed. It was there because she died there in my opinion. The dogs didn't just work on this case. The dogs and their handlers have worked a lot of cases and if the handlers think it indicates a person died there, then a person very likely died there. 15 out of 15 markers were consistent with it being Madeleine and the other 12% were not inconsistent i.e. they could rule her out. The likelihood of it being anyone else is tiny. There is an interesting thread on Facebook at the moment with old posts from a person called Beachy. Hideho has posted them and they are very informative on this forensics. I'm not really interested in trying to explain away the cadaverine and the blood behind the sofa. Enough time has been spent on that already imho and there are plenty of threads to discuss it.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by tigger on 04.11.13 13:04

@columbostogeys wrote:
@Curioser wrote:It would have been great if they had the resources to do a thorough and comprehensive analysis of phone traffic in the area but I imagine they didn't. They also had to explore every lead that was suggested including the abduction, paedo rings, dreamed of boats, cliff bags, even psychic reports. They had a lot on their plate. I think large data analysis has come a long way since 2007 and I hope they're feeding all the pings into a nice big computer.

Russiandoll, I don't understand why they would leave her behind the sofa if they knew she had been hurt. Petermac suggested that possibly they didn't check her when they came back from dinner on Wednesday night. Perhaps Kate didn't turn the light on becuase she was upset with Gerry and M was already behind the sofa then. It's another theory. A strong one. But I'm interested in exploring the same night theory here.

I think you're all right. The PJ were polite and helpful and already under pressure I think from the UK. They also had a former lawyer with them so they may have had advice. Keep it vague. Don't be sure of anything. Mix up details. If in doubt, say nothing. If they had been brutal perhaps they would have cracked it, perhaps not. Maybe they all would have clammed up totally and insisted on representation.
Nothing wrong with your theory.

On another tact. Gerry went and checked his kids, maddy was asleep he then went out and and bumped into Jez. In the meantime the noise of him using toilet etc, woke the child up. She went into the sitting room and could hear her dad maybe and she got onto the settee to look out window, fell off feel behind the settee hitting her head very hard....

Mum comes in 10pm finds her missing, panic ensues....everyone looking cant find her outside etc, mum stays in apartment.

The police were called and they came and took a statement and asked questions and a search team were outside looking. EVERYONE was outside looking for what they thought was just a missing child. The police hardly bothered with the inside of the apartment.....

What if the child wasnt found untli much later?

Perhaps the mother doing another look suddenly sees her behind the settee.....they were inside most of the night others were searching.

Is this far fetched NO.

A child went missing in UK two nights ago. The police were called, the parents looked everywhere, they even put up the police helicopter the lot.

So it could happen that the child lay where she fell and no one had noticed, as they were looking for her OUTSIDE.  IF this was the case the parents then had time to think about what to do. They knew that they would be in trouble with authorities, so continued with the abduction theme and actually fuelled it even more. I am not convinced their friends were involved to be honest.

Its so simple really. The child was put in a bag placed in the wardrobe and in the morning when the police had them moved out of the apartment to start forensics they took her with them. You have to remember we are dealing with two experienced doctors here who are not prone to panic.

So simple. The body could have been kept in a large suitcase wrapped in a pink blanket covered in sand and shut tight. This would mummify and dehydrate and the body would not leave an odour.

There was a case in Japan where the guy put the body in the bath he had on his verandah and it was filled with sand. Sand was used in Eygpt to mummify and preserve bodies.

Anyway the parents were not suspect they could move around freely, they were not watched 247 were they. A small body could be hid ANYWHERE.

I think the scenario has to be simple otherwise too much can go wrong.....

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Abbotskerswell-missing-boy-s-mum-terror/story-20017339-detail/story.html
It would have been a little dicy what with the GNR dogs turning up around 2.00 a.m. - the McCanns turfed out of 5a around 3 or 4 a.m. and the following day the apartment taken over by the police. You've all seen the photograph of the fingerprint lady, well it wasn't only the shutters she did.
There was no cadaver scent on anything belonging to Gerry, none.


I do feel that this has turned into a Cluedo puzzle for some people instead of a serious crime perpetrated on a little girl. These theories also presume that the PJ didn't have a clue, thus perpetuating the myth created by the McCanns.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Curioser on 04.11.13 22:44

@tigger wrote:
(snip)

It would have been a little dicy what with the GNR dogs turning up around 2.00 a.m. - the McCanns turfed out of 5a around 3 or 4 a.m. and the following day the apartment taken over by the police. You've all seen the photograph of the fingerprint lady, well it wasn't only the shutters she did.
There was no cadaver scent on anything belonging to Gerry, none.


I do feel that this has turned into a Cluedo puzzle for some people instead of a serious crime perpetrated on a little girl. These theories also presume that the PJ didn't have a clue, thus perpetuating the myth created by the McCanns.
Hey Tigger, I guess it can seem like that but for me it is about justice for Madeleine and abuse of power. 

I hope my theory doesn't appear to make out that the PJ didn't have a clue. They weren't even involved imo until after she was removed (although I recognise it could all be wrong). They knew, Amaral knew, but he had to run down all the leads anyway and that stretched his resources to the limit. As far as I can see with my admittedly limited knowledge, the police did all the right things.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by columbostogeys on 05.11.13 5:09

@tigger wrote:
@columbostogeys wrote:
@Curioser wrote:It would have been great if they had the resources to do a thorough and comprehensive analysis of phone traffic in the area but I imagine they didn't. They also had to explore every lead that was suggested including the abduction, paedo rings, dreamed of boats, cliff bags, even psychic reports. They had a lot on their plate. I think large data analysis has come a long way since 2007 and I hope they're feeding all the pings into a nice big computer.

Russiandoll, I don't understand why they would leave her behind the sofa if they knew she had been hurt. Petermac suggested that possibly they didn't check her when they came back from dinner on Wednesday night. Perhaps Kate didn't turn the light on becuase she was upset with Gerry and M was already behind the sofa then. It's another theory. A strong one. But I'm interested in exploring the same night theory here.

I think you're all right. The PJ were polite and helpful and already under pressure I think from the UK. They also had a former lawyer with them so they may have had advice. Keep it vague. Don't be sure of anything. Mix up details. If in doubt, say nothing. If they had been brutal perhaps they would have cracked it, perhaps not. Maybe they all would have clammed up totally and insisted on representation.
Nothing wrong with your theory.

On another tact. Gerry went and checked his kids, maddy was asleep he then went out and and bumped into Jez. In the meantime the noise of him using toilet etc, woke the child up. She went into the sitting room and could hear her dad maybe and she got onto the settee to look out window, fell off feel behind the settee hitting her head very hard....

Mum comes in 10pm finds her missing, panic ensues....everyone looking cant find her outside etc, mum stays in apartment.

The police were called and they came and took a statement and asked questions and a search team were outside looking. EVERYONE was outside looking for what they thought was just a missing child. The police hardly bothered with the inside of the apartment.....

What if the child wasnt found untli much later?

Perhaps the mother doing another look suddenly sees her behind the settee.....they were inside most of the night others were searching.

Is this far fetched NO.

A child went missing in UK two nights ago. The police were called, the parents looked everywhere, they even put up the police helicopter the lot.

So it could happen that the child lay where she fell and no one had noticed, as they were looking for her OUTSIDE.  IF this was the case the parents then had time to think about what to do. They knew that they would be in trouble with authorities, so continued with the abduction theme and actually fuelled it even more. I am not convinced their friends were involved to be honest.

Its so simple really. The child was put in a bag placed in the wardrobe and in the morning when the police had them moved out of the apartment to start forensics they took her with them. You have to remember we are dealing with two experienced doctors here who are not prone to panic.

So simple. The body could have been kept in a large suitcase wrapped in a pink blanket covered in sand and shut tight. This would mummify and dehydrate and the body would not leave an odour.

There was a case in Japan where the guy put the body in the bath he had on his verandah and it was filled with sand. Sand was used in Eygpt to mummify and preserve bodies.

Anyway the parents were not suspect they could move around freely, they were not watched 247 were they. A small body could be hid ANYWHERE.

I think the scenario has to be simple otherwise too much can go wrong.....

http://www.torquayheraldexpress.co.uk/Abbotskerswell-missing-boy-s-mum-terror/story-20017339-detail/story.html
It would have been a little dicy what with the GNR dogs turning up around 2.00 a.m. - the McCanns turfed out of 5a around 3 or 4 a.m. and the following day the apartment taken over by the police. You've all seen the photograph of the fingerprint lady, well it wasn't only the shutters she did.
There was no cadaver scent on anything belonging to Gerry, none.


I do feel that this has turned into a Cluedo puzzle for some people instead of a serious crime perpetrated on a little girl. These theories also presume that the PJ didn't have a clue, thus perpetuating the myth created by the McCanns.
It is a Cluedo puzzle. We are trying to work out scenerio which would incorporate all the findings and all the timings. Not once was the PJ dismissed or called stupid.

The GNR DOGS were NOT cadavar dogs, they were simply scent dogs and stayed outside the apartment if you look at all the footage. They were finally given something of maddies and went off sniffing to see if they could find a LIVE CHILD.

Curioser has said my timeline is a bit off base, so we will say she was found earlier by the McCanns, I think she was put in the wardrobe or nearto in a holdall.

Its easy to just pick the bag up with the rest of the belongings and move out of the apartment. 

Some years back in the UK a guy took a girl from the streets and put her in a holdall, he did it twice. He got two girls, thank god eventually that case worked out ok the girls survived he did not. 

But to take a child away in a bag is easy.

We have to remember we are dealing with two people here who are used to death, even Mrs MC is said to have handled 6 bodies just before they went on holiday.

How are we perpetuating the myth created by the McCanns, I thought that was abduction?

Instead of criticising, why not tell us your theory? I would be interested.

I have heard so much rubbish about what happened. I just think it was simple  and that is why it has worked so far.

IF the McCanns are guilty then they would have had to do it some how?

Did anyone see that photo of them on the bed with their bottoms up in the air like they were crying to Allah, and in the doorway was a GNR policemen looking shocked. I cant find it again, i wonder if it has been carter rucked. BUT for me make enough of a scene/crying/wailing, to ensure the police leave the bedroom area alone until they can move out.

Anyway its all just a theory NON OF US know what happened. Like I said i would be interested to hear your theory on the matter.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Guest on 05.11.13 9:27

columbostogeys Today at 5:09 am wrote
"Did anyone see that photo of them on the bed with their bottoms up in the air like they were crying to Allah, and in the doorway was a GNR policemen looking shocked. I cant find it again, i wonder if it has been carter rucked. BUT for me make enough of a scene/crying/wailing, to ensure the police leave the bedroom area alone until they can move out"

My belief is that this performance was to steer the police away from the broken bed...

NSPCC 
Child homicides statistics: March 2013



On average, every week in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of another person.



Over two thirds of children killed at the hands of another person in England and Wales are aged under five years.



Every ten days in England and Wales one child is killed at the hands of their parent. In over two thirds (67% on average) of all cases of children killed at the hands of another person, the parent is the principal suspect.
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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 9:58

Something was badly amiss on the night of 2 May - the night when I believe KM slept in the children's bedroom.  It is said that this was either because of GM's snoring, or because she was angry that he had invited the quiz night buxom lady to their table.  But what else might prompt a wife to sleep in another room?  Outrage, despair?  Grief?

This is also the night which Madeleine referred to, allegedly next morning at breakfast on 3 May, by saying:   "Why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying".   Something doesn't fit with this timeline, imo.  What may be missing?

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by columbostogeys on 05.11.13 10:50

@Searcher wrote:Something was badly amiss on the night of 2 May - the night when I believe KM slept in the children's bedroom.  It is said that this was either because of GM's snoring, or because she was angry that he had invited the quiz night buxom lady to their table.  But what else might prompt a wife to sleep in another room?  Outrage, despair?  Grief?

This is also the night which Madeleine referred to, allegedly next morning at breakfast on 3 May, by saying:   "Why didn't you come when Sean and I were crying".   Something doesn't fit with this timeline, imo.  What may be missing?
Yes it confused me Searcher, then I was told what if it was to show she was ALIVE on the 2nd May......

I never could understand why Mrs McCann would say this about the 3rd May morning, it kind of beggars belief that she would say it as it so makes her out to be a bad parent, so it had to be really important to do so.

As to sleeping in bedroom perhaps she had been doing that EVERY NIGHT.

I am not so convinced that everything was right with them before they left for the holiday.

IF he snored, then she would have always slept on her own......usually on holiday you get closer lol...as you have no stress, not stomping off in angry exchange and sleeping apart.

IF she was that jealous about the buxom lady perhaps she had cause to be.....

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 11:08

@columbostogeys wrote:
Yes it confused me Searcher, then I was told what if it was to show she was ALIVE on the 2nd May......

I never could understand why Mrs McCann would say this about the 3rd May morning, it kind of beggars belief that she would say it as it so makes her out to be a bad parent, so it had to be really important to do so.



Yes, Columbo, I have to wonder about 2 May as well, and have wondered for a long time.  The handwriting analyses (sorry no ref) at the creche are interesting to say the least in relation to this.  Also, how could it be that on two consecutive nights there was unattended crying (75 mins. on 1 May according to Mrs. Fenn), yet on 3 May there was an army of 15 minute checking?  I just don't see it.  I would also like to know a clearer timeline for who was at the table that evening.  A waiter's testimony was that it was a lively table; but how many? 

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 11:11

For some reason I could only type my reply into the body of your post Columbo (I quoted some of yours); hope it's not confusing.

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 16:30

@Searcher wrote:Thankyou Estelle; it just feels at a gut level very important that these questions are coming forward again.  Amazing work from people who have read, researched, and won't give up on the truth.  It is also fascinating to see so much analytical and logical work on the material, available to read, which is not going to disappear or be forgotten.

I could imagine that in a court of law with a top QC, the given story would unravel in layers at a touch.  That is my hope for Madeleine and for some justice.
As it's unlikely any competent defence lawyer would advise clients of uncertain temper and a propensity to tell porkies to take the stand, I suspect all that could be unravelled would take the form of one of the anondyne accounts purported here.

No parents, let alone those who are medical professionals, would seek to conceal the body of a child who met with a fatal accidental injury unless they had concern as to what would emerge on autopsy.
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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by Searcher on 05.11.13 17:26

@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:Thankyou Estelle; it just feels at a gut level very important that these questions are coming forward again.  Amazing work from people who have read, researched, and won't give up on the truth.  It is also fascinating to see so much analytical and logical work on the material, available to read, which is not going to disappear or be forgotten.

I could imagine that in a court of law with a top QC, the given story would unravel in layers at a touch.  That is my hope for Madeleine and for some justice.
As it's unlikely any competent defence lawyer would advise clients of uncertain temper and a propensity to tell porkies to take the stand, I suspect all that could be unravelled would take the form of one of the anondyne accounts purported here.

No parents, let alone those who are medical professionals, would seek to conceal the body of a child who met with a fatal accidental injury unless they had concern as to what would emerge on autopsy.
Point taken, ultimaThule; my knowledge of legal proceedings is very limited, but my understanding is that, if a prosecution lawyer calls a witness to attend court and to give evidence (subpoena?) then they have no option but to comply?  Whether or not a defence lawyer might try with all their might to avoid just that.  What do you feel?

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Re: Theory 'purported' by Curioser (title changed from Any Advice etc.)

Post by ultimaThule on 05.11.13 18:19

@Searcher wrote:
@ultimaThule wrote:
@Searcher wrote:-snip-
I could imagine that in a court of law with a top QC, the given story would unravel in layers at a touch.  That is my hope for Madeleine and for some justice.
As it's unlikely any competent defence lawyer would advise clients of uncertain temper and a propensity to tell porkies to take the stand, I suspect all that could be unravelled would take the form of one of the anondyne accounts purported here.

No parents, let alone those who are medical professionals, would seek to conceal the body of a child who met with a fatal accidental injury unless they had concern as to what would emerge on autopsy.
Point taken, ultimaThule; my knowledge of legal proceedings is very limited, but my understanding is that, if a prosecution lawyer calls a witness to attend court and to give evidence (subpoena?) then they have no option but to comply?  Whether or not a defence lawyer might try with all their might to avoid just that.  What do you fee
To "I suspect all that could be unravelled would take the form of one of the anondyne accounts purported here" I should have added "unless a full and frank confession is made by one or more parties to the event'.

Despite inclining to the view that questioning under caution may produce a stampede to give evidence for the prosecution, when giving consideration to the possibility of the McCanns standing trial on child neglect or more serious charges I've always envisaged a somewhat crowded dock. 

However, should one or more of the 7 recipients of Mr Desmond's £600,000 break rank, I imagine the prospect of being required to repay what is now, with legal fees, interest, etc, most probably in excess of a cool £100grand a head, may cause any dissenter(s) to not stray far from what, I believe, would have been collectively established some considerable time ago as the ultimate fall back position.

While both prosecution and defence are at liberty to subpoena witness(es) who express reluctance to testify on their behalf such a move can backfire and, given the McCanns together with some if not all of their pals are more slippery than a bucket full of eels, I would imagine both sides would seek to line their ducks up in places where they cannot easily be shot down.
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