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Post by Guest on 18.12.13 22:07

@Penfold wrote:
@Ladyinred wrote:Re: last photos.  I've often wondered whether there must exist photos of Madeleine taken by the other parents while on their holiday, such as a group photo.


 From my experience of kids' holiday / play clubs there are always dozens of photos of the kids enjoying themselves at the activities, usually printed and displayed on a board in the dining room -  for parents to buy.  Surely, as she evidently spent most of her holiday in the Kids Club there should have been some photos?

Not forgetting the ones helpfully supplied by Mr. Edmonds.

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Post by russiandoll on 18.12.13 23:43

and no crèche group photos ? none of tapas kids' teas? or post- tea playtime?

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Post by PeterMac on 19.12.13 10:00

I think most of the photos went off to Hampshire and came back as those almost unrecognisable ones in black and white, that you can see in mccannfiles.com
The originals must still be on a chip somewhere though.
And thinking about it, they are clearly part of the evidence that was NOT released by the PJ.
Curioso !

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Post by aiyoyo on 19.12.13 10:43

Question is: on whose instruction did they end up in Hampshire?

One would think there would be photo of Madeleine in other people's' camera if she was ever in any sort of group activity outside of the creche.
It's very normal for parents to capture other children when they capture shot of their child in group play activity. Otherwise if a child is captured solo without showing the group recreation activity the sense of enjoyment/play with other children is lost.

Take Maddie Tennis shot for example, who can tell whether she was mucking around during adult tennis, or whether she was with other children, or for that matter the venue of the tennis court? There is no indication/sense of children play activity. It was a shot of a not--spontaneous Maddie on her own.

If Maddie photo in group play taken by independent third party exists prior to 3rd, but not on the 3rd, then the argument about her being seen well and alive is as good as closed. There is no substantive proof otherwise apart from the parents say so from their elaborate, contrived and confused accounts. Had the Police gone down that route I wonder?
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Post by Nereid on 19.12.13 10:51

I think the childcare administration of Mark Warner was shambolic. They were featured in a BBC Whistleblower programme on the widespread failings of the under-fives. Here's a quote: "At Mark Warner, an extra child arrives at the crèche but no one knows who she is ..." http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml

Mark Warner already had issues in 2005 about the signing out of children: ""We eventually found him in the head nanny's pram. Not only had they breached company rules by not signing him out, they did not even know which children they had in their care." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1482383/Holiday-ski-resort-nannies-sacked-for-endangering-toddlers-lives.html

You would have thought they'd sorted themselves out, but on 1st May 2007 Madeleine was not signed out by anyone in the afternoon. Also the nannies often signed a child out. What if that child had gone missing after a nanny had signed it out? Who would have been responsible?

John Hill the Manager stated initially that there was no sign of an abduction. Then Bell Pottinger's Woolfall got shipped in. I'm not sure but I don't think we heard much from John Hill since Woolfall got shipped in. Woolfall became the spokesperson for the McCanns, even though he was there to protect Mark Warner's interests (think damage limitation). It makes me wonder if some kind of arrangement was made between Mark Warner and the McCanns. 

The first activity mentioned is 29th April 2009, 9.00 - 10.00 Pictures. Did this mean that pictures were taken of all the Lobsters?

When you look at all the other activities that were laid on for the children, Madeleine must have produced quite a few artworks:

29th April 2007
11.00 - 12.00: Making postcards;
14.30 - 15.30: Planet making

30th April 2007
9.00 - 10.00 Spaceship Collage
14.30 - 15.30 Sand Painting / Moon pictures

1st May 2007
9.00 - 10.00 Happy Handprint Stars
11.00 - 12.00 Salt dough rockets

2nd May 2007
14.30 - 15.30 Funky footprint alien

3rd May 2007
9.00 - 10.00 Alien mobiles
14.30 - 15.30 Chalk space pictures

Has there ever been mention of the artworks she produced? They must be Kate and Gerry's most priced possessions, well apart from Rothley Towers of course  big grin .
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Post by Guest on 19.12.13 11:04

@Nereid wrote:I think the childcare administration of Mark Warner was shambolic. They were featured in a BBC Whistleblower programme on the widespread failings of the under-fives. Here's a quote: "At Mark Warner, an extra child arrives at the crèche but no one knows who she is ..." http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2008/03_march/05/whistleblower.shtml


I did wonder once over if this whole thing was some kind of elaborate blackmail attempt against MW. I remember at one time thinking erroneously that Bridgitte O'Donnell, for one, should have had doubts about MW since the BBC had reported on the problems there. I later realised that the BBC report came after May 2007. Still, it's all grist for the mill as they say.
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Post by PeterMac on 19.12.13 11:40

@Nereid wrote:
Has there ever been mention of the artworks she produced? They must be Kate and Gerry's most priced possessions, well apart from Rothley Towers of course  big grin .

It was a great missed opportunity, surely. Real Heart-String-pulling - "Give us your money" stuff,
but they didn't.
Why not ?

The only thing we were shown was the plate with the handprints which Madeleine threw, decorated, and then glazed and fired when she was 18 months old IIRC !
A child with that level of skill might well have been making a reproduction of Michelangelos' David in PdL.

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Post by aiyoyo on 19.12.13 12:10

Why not?

She was well able to read Harry Porter and enjoyed Dr. Who, so we were told.
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Post by Guest on 20.12.13 13:40

At home and abroad: team Madeleine

Behind Kate and Gerry McCann is a growing band of family, friends and specialists desperately trying to ease their burden. The original party of friends who flew out to the Algarve with their children and the McCanns remain in Praia da Luz comforting the couple while the team, both at home and abroad, is maximising publicity and expertise. Here MICHAEL SEAMARK profiles Team Madeleine

The lawyers

The McCanns have instructed the International Family Law Group, specialist London lawyers in child abduction and international family law, together with barrister Michael Nicholls QC, to help them in the search for Madeleine.

Mr McCann said the arrival of lawyers from the firm in Praia da Luz had meant 'a burden being lifted from our shoulders' and the law group says members of the public will soon be able to make their own financial contribution to a 'fighting fund' for the search, which could pay for private detectives across Europe.

Mark Warner, the holiday company the McCanns booked with, said accommodation and flights for them and their relatives was being given free for as long as the family needed it.

The family priest

Father Paul Seddon married the McCanns and baptised Madeleine. He led a service to pray for her safe return at Our Lady of Compassion Church in Formby, near Liverpool, last Thursday night.

The Roman Catholic parish priest and family friend had been in regular phone and text contact with the distraught couple in the aftermath of her disappearance.

He flew out at the weekend and accompanied Kate to Mass on Sunday.

The PR man

Experiemced public relations man Alex Woolfall has been acting as the family spokesman when Kate and Gerry McCann have not wished to appear themselves before the world's media.

He is described as press officer for the Mark Warner holiday group but, in fact, has been seconded from the Bell Pottinger Group - the PR firm headed by Lord Bell, Lady Thatcher's former PR guru.

The Cracker experts

Two criminal behaviour experts from the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) Centre flew into Portugal to help assist in the hunt.

Detective Superintendent Graham Hill of Surrey Police has worked on a string of high-profile cases, including the kidnap and murder of schoolgirl Milly Dowler - whose body was found in a Hampshire wood six months after she was snatched in 2002 while walking home from school. Joe Sullivan, a forensic psychologist, has wide experience of child-sex murders and paedophile rings

.Trauma counsellors

Mark Warner flew out two specialist counsellors to help comfort the McCanns, spending time with the couple through the traumatic days. Leicestershire police sent three family liaison officers.

Back in Glasgow

Madeleine'es uncle John McCann is spearheading the fight to keep her 'name up there so no one forgets about her'.

The family are targeting the 40,000 Spanish fans and 500 journalists from across Europe congregating in Glasgow for tomorrow's UEFA Cup final at Hampden Park between Seville and Espanyol.

Mr McCann, a 48-year- old drugs company representative, hopes to gain permission for a picture of his niece to be placed on every seat at the stadium.

Leicester

Thousands have travelled to the McCanns' home village of Rothley to place messages on railings by the village green, no longer visible beneath a mass of yellow ribbons.

Villagers and visitors alike have begun to tie yellow ribbons to their vehicles while in nearby Queniborough - the McCanns' home until a year ago - Madeleine's great-uncle Brian Kennedy was among those who released 40 pink balloons on Saturday to mark her birthday.
Liverpool

Before Sunday's Premiership match at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea, the Everton players ran out wearing T-shirts featuring Madeleine's picture and fans in the crowd carried banners calling for her safe return.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454949/At-home-abroad-team-Madeleine.html

Totaly unbelievable that all those people should be brought to Praia da Luz why? imo this wasn't about Madeleine going missing, there was something bigger that needed to be kept quiet, who was being protected? did the McCanns know what was going on even being part of it, or even used blackmail to get whatever they wanted at the expense of their daughter?

When Alex Woolfall transmitted a portfolio of Madeleine photo's to the PA was the tennis photo among them? imo it wasn't, all the photo's of Madeleine were old ones, maybe they realised they hadn't sent a holiday photo or the PA asked for a recent holiday photo and the tennis photo was released which imo is another old one, if in fact it was Madeleine!

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Post by russiandoll on 20.12.13 16:55

All very bizarre. Unless I missed something, there was not one friend, neighbour or nursery worker associated with the McCanns who spoke about Maddie and described what kind of child she was.

All that media circus and not one person did I see or hear discussing this little girl with a journalist.

 Did it happen? Or was there nothing for me to miss ?

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unrealistic.
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Post by suep on 21.12.13 8:41

Cherry Blossom wrote:At home and abroad: team Madeleine

Behind Kate and Gerry McCann is a growing band of family, friends and specialists desperately trying to ease their burden. The original party of friends who flew out to the Algarve with their children and the McCanns remain in Praia da Luz comforting the couple while the team, both at home and abroad, is maximising publicity and expertise. Here MICHAEL SEAMARK profiles Team Madeleine

The lawyers

The McCanns have instructed the International Family Law Group, specialist London lawyers in child abduction and international family law, together with barrister Michael Nicholls QC, to help them in the search for Madeleine.

Mr McCann said the arrival of lawyers from the firm in Praia da Luz had meant 'a burden being lifted from our shoulders' and the law group says members of the public will soon be able to make their own financial contribution to a 'fighting fund' for the search, which could pay for private detectives across Europe.

Mark Warner, the holiday company the McCanns booked with, said accommodation and flights for them and their relatives was being given free for as long as the family needed it.

The family priest

Father Paul Seddon married the McCanns and baptised Madeleine. He led a service to pray for her safe return at Our Lady of Compassion Church in Formby, near Liverpool, last Thursday night.

The Roman Catholic parish priest and family friend had been in regular phone and text contact with the distraught couple in the aftermath of her disappearance.

He flew out at the weekend and accompanied Kate to Mass on Sunday.

The PR man

Experiemced public relations man Alex Woolfall has been acting as the family spokesman when Kate and Gerry McCann have not wished to appear themselves before the world's media.

He is described as press officer for the Mark Warner holiday group but, in fact, has been seconded from the Bell Pottinger Group - the PR firm headed by Lord Bell, Lady Thatcher's former PR guru.

The Cracker experts

Two criminal behaviour experts from the Child Exploitation and Online Protection (Ceop) Centre flew into Portugal to help assist in the hunt.

Detective Superintendent Graham Hill of Surrey Police has worked on a string of high-profile cases, including the kidnap and murder of schoolgirl Milly Dowler - whose body was found in a Hampshire wood six months after she was snatched in 2002 while walking home from school. Joe Sullivan, a forensic psychologist, has wide experience of child-sex murders and paedophile rings

.Trauma counsellors

Mark Warner flew out two specialist counsellors to help comfort the McCanns, spending time with the couple through the traumatic days. Leicestershire police sent three family liaison officers.

Back in Glasgow

Madeleine'es uncle John McCann is spearheading the fight to keep her 'name up there so no one forgets about her'.

The family are targeting the 40,000 Spanish fans and 500 journalists from across Europe congregating in Glasgow for tomorrow's UEFA Cup final at Hampden Park between Seville and Espanyol.

Mr McCann, a 48-year- old drugs company representative, hopes to gain permission for a picture of his niece to be placed on every seat at the stadium.

Leicester

Thousands have travelled to the McCanns' home village of Rothley to place messages on railings by the village green, no longer visible beneath a mass of yellow ribbons.

Villagers and visitors alike have begun to tie yellow ribbons to their vehicles while in nearby Queniborough - the McCanns' home until a year ago - Madeleine's great-uncle Brian Kennedy was among those who released 40 pink balloons on Saturday to mark her birthday.
Liverpool

Before Sunday's Premiership match at Stamford Bridge against Chelsea, the Everton players ran out wearing T-shirts featuring Madeleine's picture and fans in the crowd carried banners calling for her safe return.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454949/At-home-abroad-team-Madeleine.html

Totaly unbelievable that all those people should be brought to Praia da Luz why? imo this wasn't about Madeleine going missing, there was something bigger that needed to be kept quiet, who was being protected? did the McCanns know what was going on even being part of it, or even used blackmail to get whatever they wanted at the expense of their daughter?

When Alex Woolfall transmitted a portfolio of Madeleine photo's to the PA was the tennis photo among them? imo it wasn't, all the photo's of Madeleine were old ones, maybe they realised they hadn't sent a holiday photo or the PA asked for a recent holiday photo and the tennis photo was released which imo is another old one, if in fact it was Madeleine!

.

You're right,Cherry Blossom, there's something very fishy about this whole story. I've just been doing a bit of digging on one of those websites where you can search births, deaths and marriages and I've found something very strange indeed. There was a female child born in January 2003 in Somerset to a couple with the names McCann/Healy called Emily Jane McCann.
Name: MCCANN, Emily Jane
Registration district: Mendip
County: Somerset
Year of registration: 2003
Month of registration: January
Mother's maiden name: Healy
District no: 7211
Reg no: F24D
Ent no: 135
DOR: 103

So I checked marriages between people with those names and the only recent enough one on record between people with these surnames to have been the parents of this Emily Jane McCann is... Gerry and Kate!! Here are the records,

Marriage Matched Last name First names Country of registration Place Registered year Record
MCCANN Sarah England Yorkshire, Sheffield 1850
VIEW
MCCANN Mary England Northumberland, Berwick 1859
VIEW
MCCANN Mary Ann England Lancashire, Liverpool 1867
VIEW
MCCANN Richard England Yorkshire, Barnsley 1905
VIEW
MCCANN Edward England Cheshire, Birkenhead 1914
VIEW
MCCANN Ellen I England London, Marylebone 1941
VIEW
MCCANN Charles F W England Devon, Newton Abbot 1961
VIEW

MCCANN Gerald P England Lancashire, Liverpool 1998
VIEW

So how can they have a child born in January 2003 AND a child born in May 2003...and where the hell is Emily Jane? I checked and there's no record of her death. Curiouser and curiouser.




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Post by Guest on 21.12.13 9:07

@suep wrote:
So how can they have a child born in January 2003 AND a child born in May 2003...and where the hell is Emily Jane? I checked and there's no record of her death. Curiouser and curiouser.


Interesting. Try Googling "Emily Jane McCann" and see what turns up.
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Post by Rasputin on 21.12.13 9:19

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
@suep wrote:
So how can they have a child born in January 2003 AND a child born in May 2003...and where the hell is Emily Jane? I checked and there's no record of her death. Curiouser and curiouser.


Interesting. Try Googling "Emily Jane McCann" and see what turns up.
Could the name on this cake be Emily ?
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bm/10.jpg
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Post by Guest on 21.12.13 9:31

@Rasputin wrote:
Could the name on this cake be Emily ?
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/bm/10.jpg

I've seen this brought up before. At the time, if I HAD to say, I was going to go for Ella.

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Post by canada12 on 21.12.13 9:45

suep wrote:
You're right,Cherry Blossom, there's something very fishy about this whole story. I've just been doing a bit of digging on one of those websites where you can search births, deaths and marriages and I've found something very strange indeed. There was a female child born in January 2003 in Somerset to a couple with the names McCann/Healy called Emily Jane McCann.
Name: MCCANN, Emily Jane
Registration district: Mendip
County: Somerset
Year of registration: 2003
Month of registration: January
Mother's maiden name: Healy
(Edit - I removed the indexing info as it's personal info of a person who presumably is still living)

So I checked marriages between people with those names and the only recent enough one on record between people with these surnames to have been the parents of this Emily Jane McCann is... Gerry and Kate!! Here are the records,


Not only that, but if you do a search for all births where the last name is McCann and the mother's maiden name is Healy, the only four that come up are Emily Jane, Madeleine Beth, Amelie Eve and Sean Michael.

Emily Jane was registered in Somerset. Why a registration in Somerset...?
I don't know about adoption regulations when it comes to birth registrations, but just for a moment assuming Emily Jane and Madeleine Beth could be twins, then the earlier birth registration (Emily Jane, in January 2003) would be the original, and the later registration (Madeleine Beth, in June 2003) could be an adoptive registration?

Edited to add: That's my comment above in italics about removing the indexing info - I didn't know how to make it not italic.

One further edit: If it turns out Emily Jane is not related to Madeleine Beth, it might be prudent to remember that not all parents of children are married. Therefore Emily Jane's mother and father might indeed be Healy and McCann, but they may not be married, and therefore there would be no marriage record, and therefore they could be an entirely different couple from Kate and Gerry.
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Post by Guest on 21.12.13 9:50

Not many parents would call both their daughters Emily & Amelie!
Just think about calling out for them.

But if you had lost the firstborn, it could be another matter altogether
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Post by canada12 on 21.12.13 10:06

I did a search and I don't see any death registrations for Emily Jane McCann or Emily McCann between 2003 and 2013.
Of course if there was a name change then this doesn't prove anything, I guess.

Edited to add: I think the only way to solve this is to order a copy of Emily Jane's birth certificate (which anyone can do, I think) and see who's actually listed as parents on it. If they list both parents' first and last names? I seem to recall this topic being researched a bit on 3A's but I can't remember if anyone actually spent the money and followed through to get the birth certificate.
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Post by Guest on 21.12.13 12:52

I don't think that the child's birth certificate would resolve the question. It would give the names of her parents, but even assuming that they are the same as an infamous couple, that wouldn't prove they're the same.

It would certainly be a strange coincidence though.
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Post by Woofer on 21.12.13 12:54

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I don't think that the child's birth certificate would resolve the question. It would give the names of her parents, but even assuming that they are the same as an infamous couple, that wouldn't prove they're the same.

It would certainly be a strange coincidence though.

I think it would give their occupations though which would be a strong indicator.  I`m not spending £10. on getting it.
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Post by Woofer on 21.12.13 13:26

MENDIP REGISTRATION DISTRICT

  • Registration County : Somerset.
  • Created : 1.4.1974 (out of Wells, Frome, [url=http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/norton radstock.html]Norton Radstock[/url], and [url=http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/weston super mare.html]Weston super Mare[/url] registration districts).
  • Abolished : 1.1.2008 (to become part of Somerset registration district).
  • Sub-districts : Frome, Shepton Mallet, Wells.
  • GRO volumes : 23 (1974–92).
  • Registers currently held at : Somerset.
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Post by sallypelt on 21.12.13 13:28

It's also worth remembering that Ancestry.UK for example, only gives BMD registration up to 2006, so anyone born, married or died after 2006 (apart from the odd few) won't show up on the registration lists.


Moreover, if the parents of a child aren't married when the child is born, but the child takes the father's name, that child will have two entries in the registry; one under the father's surname, and one under the mother's maiden name. Although I can't find an entry for a Emily Jane Healy for the year 2003, but I can find one for 2004. Did the mother change the child's name back to Healy in 2004?

And if Emily Jane McCann's parents went on to have more children, and they were born after 2005/6 they won't show up in the registration list on Ancestry.


Edited to add that the Emily Jane McCann, registered in 2004 isn't the same Emily Jane McCann I mentioned in the my last paragraph, as that Emily Jane's mother's maiden name is Sharpe.
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Alex Woolfall 'knows': 'The Last Photo', and other photos of Madeleine in Praia da Luz  - Page 12 Empty Re: Alex Woolfall 'knows': 'The Last Photo', and other photos of Madeleine in Praia da Luz

Post by Guest on 21.12.13 14:51

I've been skim reading, but the preceding discussion reminded me of a young couple, I knew long time ago. She was pregnant with their first child, they went overseas to see family and there she lost the child. Everyone sad and devastated, they came back to the Netherlands, where shortly afterwards she gave birth to a healthy child: a surviving twin that they were not aware of ... Mind, this was before everyone having echos.
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Post by canada12 on 21.12.13 16:45

Cherry Blossom wrote:This makes interesting reading, thanks to Joana Morais

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2011/05/parents-did-not-register-maddie-at.html

This indeed is very interesting and very relevant too.

The above article states:
The date of birth in her passport - the only identity document given by the family to the Judiciary Police - is May 12, 2003 and that is the day when the parents celebrate the birthday of their missing daughter. However, in accordance to a document of the Leicestershire police - area of residence of the McCann family in England - which was given to the PJ 15 days after her disappearance, Madeleine McCann was born on March 12, 2003 and was registered by her parents on June, 5 of that same year.

Given the difference of three months between the birth and the registration, the same report alerted to the possibility of the girl having another father. But DNA tests would confirm Gerry's paternity. Maddie's sample, the one used for the tests performed in an English laboratory, was a hair taken from her room in Leicestershire, assumed to being hers since it was proven that it didn't belong to her younger siblings.

The parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, never explained the differences in the birthday dates and the anniversary, and why they took three months to register the girl. Sources close to the investigation assured to CM that there were never answers to those questions.


So Emily Jane McCann's birth month is listed as January 2003.
And according to the above article, Madeleine's birthdate is March 12 2003.
I'm actually wondering if the May 12 2003 to March 12 2003 difference might have been a typo?
But even if it's not a typo, the hair sample provided to the police to procure Madeleine's DNA was, iirc, collected by Gerry in an unsupervised manner. So the hair sample could belong to anyone.

Was it ever established why there is the discrepancy in birthdates for Madeleine?
Is it possible Madeleine's actual birth date is January 2003? And that's why she looks older in many photos? A difference of 6 months is quite a bit when you're dealing with a toddler.
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Post by Guest on 21.12.13 17:52

@canada12 wrote: [...] the hair sample provided to the police to procure Madeleine's DNA was, iirc, collected by Gerry in an unsupervised manner. So the hair sample could belong to anyone. [...]
***
IIRC the Rothley pillow was taken by a police officer, while Gerry had to wait outside. I'd have to do quite a search to document that. If anyone can confirm or contradict, please do.

ETA Of course, there had been family in the house meanwhile. That would make the pillow unsupervised for some time. Not saying, that this would have any significance. Just an afterthought, that's all.
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