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The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

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The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Guest on 22.08.13 17:19

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3492p20-dr-christian-ludke-criminal-psychologist-talks-about-kate-and-gerry-mccann

Following on from the posts started today on the above topic by "Deeply Disillusioned" (as I'm sure that we all are at times) I wonder what other people's thoughts are on the way the Portuguese police reacted.

DD says that the police did not treat the scene as that of a major crime. The most likely scenario was that a child had simply wandered away and would be found at any moment. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but of course they did not know then how this case would develop.

By the time it was realised that all was not as it seemed, the tapas mob had trampled all over the place, contaminating the scene.

I think I can safely say that there will never be another case like this one.

I don't feel that the police could have done any more thanks to the interference of the British government and the refusal of the McCanns and friends to co-operate with the enquiry.
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by gbwales on 22.08.13 17:36

I think that Amaral himself admits that there was at least one unhelpful bit of scene contamination by one of the police (outside the window IIRC?) but they were fighting a losing battle with the entire scene - as you say - trampled before they even arrived.
And the obstructions and delays across the course of the case seem to present the PJ with a very uphill struggle.
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Guest on 22.08.13 17:51

Deeply Disillusioned has now been escorted out of the building so this topic has become redundant, unless anyone wants to carry it on.

I always like to give newcomers who make an entrance in the way that DD did the benefit of the doubt!
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Guest on 22.08.13 19:54

I think I can understand Mods & Admin, NFWTD, as IIRC s/he was talking about "killers" without a proper fact-founded theory as to how s/he arrived at [merciless? etc.] "killers" ... We wouldn't want this forum go down, would we?
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heroes

Post by marconi on 22.08.13 23:02

Heroes that is what the PJ are.
Don't forget that the Yard were doing their review and doing now the investigation based on the PJ files.
Everything very well organised and all ready.

And through those files, they are already landing in Algarve, continuing cleaning up the road. 

When the Yard got involved in the case, Amaral commented: "there are things in the files that will not please the McCanns."

For goodness sake, what will Mitchell say when those "things" become known to the public?  Kate and Gerry again pleased or will he say that they got lost in tanslation?

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The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Monty Heck on 23.08.13 10:41

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t3492p20-dr-christian-ludke-criminal-psychologist-talks-about-kate-and-gerry-mccann

Following on from the posts started today on the above topic by "Deeply Disillusioned" (as I'm sure that we all are at times) I wonder what other people's thoughts are on the way the Portuguese police reacted.

DD says that the police did not treat the scene as that of a major crime. The most likely scenario was that a child had simply wandered away and would be found at any moment. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but of course they did not know then how this case would develop.

By the time it was realised that all was not as it seemed, the tapas mob had trampled all over the place, contaminating the scene.

I think I can safely say that there will never be another case like this one.

I don't feel that the police could have done any more thanks to the interference of the British government and the refusal of the McCanns and friends to co-operate with the enquiry.
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing.  However, the other side of that coin is foresight.  According to their own testimony, the T9 believed immediately (they knew, just knew) that M had been taken by a stranger so by extension were immediately aware a major crime had been committed.  Had they returned to the apartment to find it had been burgled in their absence, the normal thing to have done would be to have touched nothing while awaiting the police, to ensure   forensic testing would be as effective as it possibly could.  Instead of preserving what they believed to be the scene of a serious crime, they allowed all and sundry into the premises and to handle vital forensic evidence, such as the shutters and pull cord and the bedroom window.   No wonder the GNR were unaware a serious crime had happened when the people to whom preservation of the crime scene mattered most (the child's parents) had allowed any potential evidence to be effectively lost.  They were saying one thing but their behaviour said the complete opposite.  Panic etc is no excuse; the T9 cannot fail to have known the importance of preserving evidence at the scene, even if the GNR failed to be taking things seriously at first - even more so in that case.  So what if one dropped cigarette ash when you and your chums have fingered all the most important evidential areas, guaranteeing that fingerprint testing would be valueless.  Believing your child to have been newly kidnapped and allowing or contributing to contamination of the crime scene before forensic testing could be done are entirely incompatible.  IMO

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by gbwales on 23.08.13 10:55

Monty Heck wrote:Had they returned to the apartment to find it had been burgled in their absence, the normal thing to have done would be to have touched nothing while awaiting the police, to ensure   forensic testing would be as effective as it possibly could....  

Believing your child to have been newly kidnapped and allowing or contributing to contamination of the crime scene before forensic testing could be done are entirely incompatible.  IMO
100% agree with that take on things - even with a burglary you can be certain pretty much anyone would have the common sense to say "touch nothing".
And I refuse to believe that this would not be even more the case given the seriousness of what they say they believed had just happened. Don't accept a 'panic' situation. They were in the room drawing up their timeline notes during this period too, weren't they...? This was a prolonged period of time from 'discovery moment' at 10 through to calling police at 10.40 and their subsequent arrival.
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Monty Heck on 23.08.13 11:12

gbwales wrote:
Monty Heck wrote:Had they returned to the apartment to find it had been burgled in their absence, the normal thing to have done would be to have touched nothing while awaiting the police, to ensure   forensic testing would be as effective as it possibly could....  

Believing your child to have been newly kidnapped and allowing or contributing to contamination of the crime scene before forensic testing could be done are entirely incompatible.  IMO
100% agree with that take on things - even with a burglary you can be certain pretty much anyone would have the common sense to say "touch nothing".
And I refuse to believe that this would not be even more the case given the seriousness of what they say they believed had just happened. Don't accept a 'panic' situation. They were in the room drawing up their timeline notes during this period too, weren't they...? This was a prolonged period of time from 'discovery moment' at 10 through to calling police at 10.40 and their subsequent arrival.
Yes indeed, the timelines.  So,
1) ensure all useful evidence is put out of commission
2) write some alibis, sorry make not 1 but 2 written records of your diligent checking routine for yourself and friends, including a statement that the abdcutor was witnessed leaving the premises with the child only seconds after her father had seen her asleep in bed, but was standing outside, oblivious - meanwhile the witness apparently thought nothing of it
3) expect to be taken seriously by the police
4) instead of searching, make phone calls throughout the night publicising how the police have/are failing you
All pretty standard, really.

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.08.13 11:22

"write some alibis, sorry make not 1 but 2 written records of your diligent checking routine for yourself and friends, including a statement that the abdcutor was witnessed leaving the premises with the child only seconds after her father had seen her asleep in bed, but was standing outside, oblivious - meanwhile the witness apparently thought nothing of it"

BUT whatever you do do NOT mention Jeremy Wilkins on either 'timeline' even though he was GM's 'alibi'!

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Monty Heck on 23.08.13 11:28

jeanmonroe wrote:"write some alibis, sorry make not 1 but 2 written records of your diligent checking routine for yourself and friends, including a statement that the abdcutor was witnessed leaving the premises with the child only seconds after her father had seen her asleep in bed, but was standing outside, oblivious - meanwhile the witness apparently thought nothing of it"

BUT whatever you do do NOT mention Jeremy Wilkins on either 'timeline' even though he was GM's 'alibi'!
Yes, interesting neither timeline mentions JW.   Someone in the vicinity at the crucial moment and who could have been a useful witness or even a man with a plan for all they knew that night, but when awoken in the early hours of the morning was told there was nothing he could do!

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.08.13 11:43

Monty Heck wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:"write some alibis, sorry make not 1 but 2 written records of your diligent checking routine for yourself and friends, including a statement that the abdcutor was witnessed leaving the premises with the child only seconds after her father had seen her asleep in bed, but was standing outside, oblivious - meanwhile the witness apparently thought nothing of it"

BUT whatever you do do NOT mention Jeremy Wilkins on either 'timeline' even though he was GM's 'alibi'!
Yes, interesting neither timeline mentions JW.   Someone in the vicinity at the crucial moment and who could have been a useful witness or even a man with a plan for all they knew that night, but when awoken in the early hours of the morning was told there was nothing he could do!
And that's exactly what he did do! Nothing.
He went back to bed!
And he 'forgot' to tell the police early the next day, 4th May 2007, when he walked passed them THREE times, before 10am, that he was 'standing right THERE' chatting to Gerry, when his tennis buddy's child was 'taken away'!
He didn't even ASK the PJ how the search for his tennis buddies missing child was going!

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Angelique on 23.08.13 11:51

NFWTD

"I don't feel that the police could have done any more thanks to the interference of the British government and the refusal of the McCanns and friends to co-operate with the enquiry."

I agree totally. I truly believe that under the circumstances if their only fault was the "dropping of ash" in view of what they were up against then they did magnificently! When you think about the "machine" that was working against them another force may well have gone under.

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.08.13 12:07

Jeremy Wilkins statement.
"The doorbell woke us up at about 1 am. It was the resort manager who I learnt to be John and one of Jerry's friends. I think his name was Matt. He is white, slim, and tall with greying hair. From previous conversations I learnt him to be a diabetics specialist. We met him o the way to the destination. Matt said XXXXX to the effect that Jerry's daughter had been abducted, and that Jerry said that he had met me and wanted to know if I had seen anything. I said 'You're joking'. I offered help but they said there was nothing that could be done at that stage. We remained at the apartment but could see people around the pool and at the front with torches. I also saw the police arriving. We then went to bed."

So he was TOLD that an extra person, with eyes, JW, wasn't needed to help 'search' for a missing child because there was 'nothing to do' at that stage?

You have to remember WHO he was TOLD by. (MO)

Also: "I saw the police arriving"

But he didn't bother to rush down, locking his partner and kids in his apartment, and TELL the police exactly when or where he was chatting to the missing child's father, at the exact time the child was being 'taken away'

Who is he trying to 'kid'?

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by russiandoll on 23.08.13 12:13

Putting this here because this is a  PJ topic. I posted a while back that Kikoraton  had tweeted about his contact with police re the Maddie case, sharing his research and conclusions. He was advised to remain silent in public on this issue but is silent no longer.


Please read from bottom to top as the tweets appeared in his timeline this morning, tweets 1-3.





  1. dewi lennard@kikoratton 20m


  2. 2/3 should have read "Spanish PJ" Their title is virtually identical to that of the Portuguese. Judicial Police. That equates to the CID.      






  1. dewi lennard@kikoratton 22m


  2. (3/3) ..careful, because I am now in personal contact with the Portuguese PJ, who have invited me to share my CONCLUSIONS   








  1. dewi lennard@kikoratton 23m


  2. (2/3) ...with an interested police force. It was, actually, the Spanish PT of the Guardia Civil. I can now repeat that I shall be very ....  






  1. dewi lennard@kikoratton 25m


  2. (1/3) I said 5 months ago, I wouldn't tweet more detail of my CONCLUSIONS (I don't call them theories) because I was in personal touch ..



[*]


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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.08.13 12:31

Russiandoll:
Hope you don't mind.
I re-jigged the tweets to make them more 'readable' to old fogies like me!

dewi lennard‏@kikoratton
11:37am, 23rd August 2013.
"I said 5 months ago, I wouldn't tweet more detail of my CONCLUSIONS (I don't call them theories) because I was in personal touch with an interested police force. It was, actually, the Spanish PT of the Guardia Civil. I can now repeat that I shall be very careful, because I am now in personal contact with the Portuguese PJ, who have invited me to share my CONCLUSIONS. Sorry. unless it has first been agreed, I shan't be saying any more about that topic. The appropriate investigators are informed."

( 2/3 should have read "Spanish PJ" Their title is virtually identical to that of the Portuguese. Judicial Police. That equates to the CID.)

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jozi on 23.08.13 12:40

jeanmonroe wrote:Jeremy Wilkins statement.
"The doorbell woke us up at about 1 am. It was the resort manager who I learnt to be John and one of Jerry's friends. I think his name was Matt. He is white, slim, and tall with greying hair. From previous conversations I learnt him to be a diabetics specialist. We met him o the way to the destination. Matt said XXXXX to the effect that Jerry's daughter had been abducted, and that Jerry said that he had met me and wanted to know if I had seen anything. I said 'You're joking'. I offered help but they said there was nothing that could be done at that stage. We remained at the apartment but could see people around the pool and at the front with torches. I also saw the police arriving. We then went to bed."

So he was TOLD that an extra person, with eyes, JW, wasn't needed to help 'search' for a missing child because there was 'nothing to do' at that stage?

You have to remember WHO he was TOLD by. (MO)

Also: "I saw the police arriving"

But he didn't bother to rush down, locking his partner and kids in his apartment, and TELL the police exactly when or where he was chatting to the missing child's father, at the exact time the child was being 'taken away'

Who is he trying to 'kid'?
Perhaps JW did not know at that time, that Maddie had been seen being abducted while he was talking to Gerry ? He did say that he never saw JT walking past him and Gerry
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.08.13 12:52

jozi wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:Jeremy Wilkins statement.
"The doorbell woke us up at about 1 am. It was the resort manager who I learnt to be John and one of Jerry's friends. I think his name was Matt. He is white, slim, and tall with greying hair. From previous conversations I learnt him to be a diabetics specialist. We met him o the way to the destination. Matt said XXXXX to the effect that Jerry's daughter had been abducted, and that Jerry said that he had met me and wanted to know if I had seen anything. I said 'You're joking'. I offered help but they said there was nothing that could be done at that stage. We remained at the apartment but could see people around the pool and at the front with torches. I also saw the police arriving. We then went to bed."

So he was TOLD that an extra person, with eyes, JW, wasn't needed to help 'search' for a missing child because there was 'nothing to do' at that stage?

You have to remember WHO he was TOLD by. (MO)

Also: "I saw the police arriving"

But he didn't bother to rush down, locking his partner and kids in his apartment, and TELL the police exactly when or where he was chatting to the missing child's father, at the exact time the child was being 'taken away'

Who is he trying to 'kid'?
Perhaps JW did not know at that time, that Maddie had been seen being abducted while he was talking to Gerry ? He did say that he never saw JT walking past him and Gerry
Don't get that!
Oldfield had just told him that Gerry's child had BEEN 'abducted'.
But he JW still never rushed down to tell police about his 'meeting' with Gerry earlier that night, did he?
How would he know that Gerry hadn't pointed the finger at HIM as the 'abductor'?
I would have been down to the police 'in two shakes of a lambs tail"

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by aquila on 23.08.13 13:04

A purely hypothetical situation

You've played tennis with a chap during a week's holiday and have had a conversation in the street early evening whilst going for a walk with your baby to try and settle the bairn for the evening. You get a knock on the door in your holiday apartment in the early hours of the following morning from men you've also played tennis with on your holiday to say that the chap you've played tennis with and chatted with only a few hours earlier has lost his daughter - she's missing.

Do you:

A) Not bother to go and look for a three year old because you've been told it's not necessary

B) Stick on your trainers and join the search

C) Listen to your wife's concern about being left alone

D) Read your wife's media coverage on this nice family who lost their child one fateful evening?
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jozi on 23.08.13 13:26

jeanmonroe wrote:
jozi wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:Jeremy Wilkins statement.
"The doorbell woke us up at about 1 am. It was the resort manager who I learnt to be John and one of Jerry's friends. I think his name was Matt. He is white, slim, and tall with greying hair. From previous conversations I learnt him to be a diabetics specialist. We met him o the way to the destination. Matt said XXXXX to the effect that Jerry's daughter had been abducted, and that Jerry said that he had met me and wanted to know if I had seen anything. I said 'You're joking'. I offered help but they said there was nothing that could be done at that stage. We remained at the apartment but could see people around the pool and at the front with torches. I also saw the police arriving. We then went to bed."

So he was TOLD that an extra person, with eyes, JW, wasn't needed to help 'search' for a missing child because there was 'nothing to do' at that stage?

You have to remember WHO he was TOLD by. (MO)

Also: "I saw the police arriving"

But he didn't bother to rush down, locking his partner and kids in his apartment, and TELL the police exactly when or where he was chatting to the missing child's father, at the exact time the child was being 'taken away'

Who is he trying to 'kid'?
Perhaps JW did not know at that time, that Maddie had been seen being abducted while he was talking to Gerry ? He did say that he never saw JT walking past him and Gerry
Don't get that!
Oldfield had just told him that Gerry's child had BEEN 'abducted'.
But he JW still never rushed down to tell police about his 'meeting' with Gerry earlier that night, did he?
How would he know that Gerry hadn't pointed the finger at HIM as the 'abductor'?
I would have been down to the police 'in two shakes of a lambs tail"
Oh come on !!! Its only after the fact when details come out, unless you ask for ...wonder why they never asked when,how and what time ?

Personally I can't understand why Bridget was scared to let him go out to search ? Then they both go to bed when police arrive....seems weird !!!
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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by jeanmonroe on 23.08.13 13:32

It wasn't hypothetical by the time MO told JW
Madeleine wasn't just 'missing' she 'HAD been abducted' according to Oldfield.

There is nothing to 'explain' JW behaviour when told.

He did NOTHING.

How did he KNOW that GM and JT would not say to the police that night 'it was that Wilkins bloke that may have taken her'
HOW DID HE KNOW THEY WOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT ABOUT HIM?

And he still hasn't 'challenged' the statements in print and on video, made by the McCanns, about where he was, EXACTLY, chatting to Gerry.

WHY NOT?

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by tigger on 23.08.13 14:25

jeanmonroe wrote:Russiandoll:
Hope you don't mind.
I re-jigged the tweets to make them more 'readable' to old fogies like me!

dewi lennard‏@kikoratton
11:37am, 23rd August 2013.
"I said 5 months ago, I wouldn't tweet more detail of my CONCLUSIONS (I don't call them theories) because I was in personal touch with an interested police force. It was, actually, the Spanish PT of the Guardia Civil. I can now repeat that I shall be very careful, because I am now in personal contact with the Portuguese PJ, who have invited me to share my CONCLUSIONS. Sorry. unless it has first been agreed, I shan't be saying any more about that topic. The appropriate investigators are informed."

( 2/3 should have read "Spanish PJ" Their title is virtually identical to that of the Portuguese. Judicial Police. That equates to the CID.)
Hmm! Thanks -I tend to miss a lot of tweets. This looks like good news to me but I believe SY have been given the same information and afaik not acted upon it.

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Re: The role of the Portuguese police - heroes or zeroes?

Post by Seek truth on 23.08.13 15:12

  tigger wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:Russiandoll:
Hope you don't mind.
I re-jigged the tweets to make them more 'readable' to old fogies like me!

dewi lennard‏@kikoratton
11:37am, 23rd August 2013.
"I said 5 months ago, I wouldn't tweet more detail of my CONCLUSIONS (I don't call them theories) because I was in personal touch with an interested police force. It was, actually, the Spanish PT of the Guardia Civil. I can now repeat that I shall be very careful, because I am now in personal contact with the Portuguese PJ, who have invited me to share my CONCLUSIONS. Sorry. unless it has first been agreed, I shan't be saying any more about that topic. The appropriate investigators are informed."

( 2/3 should have read "Spanish PJ" Their title is virtually identical to that of the Portuguese. Judicial Police. That equates to the CID.)
Hmm! Thanks -I tend to miss a lot of tweets.  This looks like good news to me but I believe SY have been  given the same information  and afaik not acted upon it.
AND haven't they been on this case for 2 years?

sarcastic

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