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McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Nereid on 14.08.13 17:50

We can't know for sure though that they actually went on this Turkey trip. They may have made all kinds of enquiries, but we can't know for sure they actually went.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by aiyoyo on 14.08.13 18:07

@Nereid wrote:We can't know for sure though that they actually went on this Turkey trip. They may have made all kinds of enquiries, but we can't know for sure they actually went.
They were still corresponding with the Agent in June 2007 (post Madeleine disappearance) asking for rooms to be located together, so clear indication they were intending to arrive. (Go back to page 3 to see that email communication)
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Nereid on 14.08.13 18:12

@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nereid wrote:We can't know for sure though that they actually went on this Turkey trip. They may have made all kinds of enquiries, but we can't know for sure they actually went.
They were still corresponding with the Agent in June 2007 (post Madeleine disappearance) asking for rooms to be located together, so clear indication they were intending to arrive.   (Go back to page 3 to see that email communication)
 True, I've seen it all. But still we don't know if they went with 100% certainty.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by tigger on 14.08.13 18:24

@Nereid wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nereid wrote:We can't know for sure though that they actually went on this Turkey trip. They may have made all kinds of enquiries, but we can't know for sure they actually went.
They were still corresponding with the Agent in June 2007 (post Madeleine disappearance) asking for rooms to be located together, so clear indication they were intending to arrive.   (Go back to page 3 to see that email communication)
 True, I've seen it all. But still we don't know if they went with 100% certainty.
 If they were going to cancel it's highly unlikely they would still be asking for facilities in June. 
Either you're so upset that you cancel almost at once after the 3rd May or you are going on a holiday. 

What you don't do is correspond with detailed demands about the facilities and then decide not to go. 
All 26  of  you.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Nereid on 14.08.13 18:35

@tigger wrote:
@Nereid wrote:
@aiyoyo wrote:
@Nereid wrote:We can't know for sure though that they actually went on this Turkey trip. They may have made all kinds of enquiries, but we can't know for sure they actually went.
They were still corresponding with the Agent in June 2007 (post Madeleine disappearance) asking for rooms to be located together, so clear indication they were intending to arrive.   (Go back to page 3 to see that email communication)
 True, I've seen it all. But still we don't know if they went with 100% certainty.
 If they were going to cancel it's highly unlikely they would still be asking for facilities in June. 
Either you're so upset that you cancel almost at once after the 3rd May or you are going on a holiday. 

What you don't do is correspond with detailed demands about the facilities and then decide not to go. 
All 26  of  you.
I agree. And I also think that they had 100 % the intention of going (despite their precious family member having been kidnapped) and may have gone.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Lance De Boils on 14.08.13 20:42

It is true that we do not have definitive proof that they DID go. But we have proof that by June 2007, they were still intending to go.
Were the Camerons, or Phil in the public eye during that week? I don't believe they were - unless anyone can show me that they were somewhere other than Turkey, I'm inclined to assume that they did go on their holiday.

What is certain is that they never intended for the public to know about this trip. They could have used it as a publicity exercise, they could have made appeals to holidaymakers and Turkish citizens to "look for Maddie." They could, perhaps, have claimed the money for their trip back from the "fund" on the basis that it was all part of the "campaign" and "search".

They didn't.

And we would know nothing about this planned trip if it wasn't for a glitch in the resort's website which made correspondence publicly available for all to see.

I really hope that Grange have checked out who was in this group of 26. And the date it was actually booked. For if there was anyone present who would not normally be expected to holiday with members of the McCann family, then the "pre-planned" scenario could raise its very ugly head once more.
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by plebgate on 14.08.13 21:05

@Lance De Boils wrote:It is true that we do not have definitive proof that they DID go. But we have proof that by June 2007, they were still intending to go.
Were the Camerons, or Phil in the public eye during that week? I don't believe they were - unless anyone can show me that they were somewhere other than Turkey, I'm inclined to assume that they did go on their holiday.

What is certain is that they never intended for the public to know about this trip. They could have used it as a publicity exercise, they could have made appeals to holidaymakers and Turkish citizens to "look for Maddie." They could, perhaps, have claimed the money for their trip back from the "fund" on the basis that it was all part of the "campaign" and "search".

They didn't.

And we would know nothing about this planned trip if it wasn't for a glitch in the resort's website which made correspondence publicly available for all to see.


I really hope that Grange have checked out who was in this group of 26. And the date it was actually booked. For if there was anyone present who would not normally be expected to holiday with members of the McCann family, then the "pre-planned" scenario could raise its very ugly head once more.

I wonder if the glitch was intentional. Who knows, there might be somebody waiting to tell about any trip that might have taken place. Very interesting thread.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by PeterMac on 14.08.13 23:16

I would not describe it as a "glitch". The Way Back machine holds cached web pages from a very long time ago (in internet terms, obviously) and people cannot escape its tentacles.
The tantalising one it did not pick up is the reference to the fridge on GM's blogs ! ! !
This is how we found the previous entries on WIKI about McAlpine, and his selling of the "dubious paintings" by a now convicted Paedo*****
The company have done the right ting in "whooshing:" the content.
No can escape the power of the internet to investigate.

Whether the company website's displaying people's e-mail addresses is proper another thing.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Lance De Boils on 10.11.13 13:04

Found this:
www.highland.gov.uk/NR/.../0/110126ullapoolprospectus1112.pdf‎

SCHOOL TRIPS
School trips associated with the curriculum are available during the year, especially in the upper school, such as field trips, Young Enterprise visits, Duke of Edinburgh Award events and a careers convention. Longer excursions include an S2 Activities Week, a whole school activity week at the end of June and visits abroad. In recent years an Activities Week has been held at the end of the summer term for all year groups and in 2006 there was an S3 excursion to Paris and senior school trips to Turkey as part of this week in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009.
So maybe it was a school trip after all. In which case, I stand corrected.

With Mr. Rickwood going along too.

And Trish & Sandy Cameron.

Which then begs the question: why were the Camerons going?  

Were they part of this school trip? Or were they indending to "just happen" to be there at the same time as Phil McCann and Tony Rickwood?

[Even if this was a school trip, under the circumstances, why didn't Philomena opt out and get another staff member to replace her?]


I'm not sure I'd be too happy if my child was going on this school trip, accompanied by Tony Rickwood.

See this thread: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8458-former-ullapool-teacher-struck-off-for-indecent-images

n.b. Rickwood is NOT the person referred to in the title of the thread. However, there is some information about him in that topic which could be of some concern.
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by thetruthbeknown on 10.11.13 13:24

Thanks for bringing this thread up, I hadnt seen it before, something else to look into. It seems 'large' holidays were quite common within the McCanns and others.There was another large holiday to Ireland with family friends etc, according to some info ive read?

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by PeterMac on 10.11.13 14:41

This thread is mixing, with its discussion of the Turkey trip, with the one about Ullapool teacher struck off.
This was a school trip. One taken every year.
Philomena is there as a teacher. Why Rickwood was there is anyone's guess.
Why Trish was there is, likewise, anyone's guess.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by BRODFB on 10.11.13 16:16

@PeterMac wrote:This thread is mixing, with its discussion of the Turkey trip, with the one about Ullapool teacher struck off.
This was a school trip. One taken every year.
Philomena is there as a teacher. Why Rickwood was there is anyone's guess.
Why Trish was there is, likewise, anyone's guess.
It is fairly usual to get additional adult volunteers to go on school trips to provide the correct ratios.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by rainbow1 on 10.11.13 16:45

@Lance De Boils wrote:Found this:
www.highland.gov.uk/NR/.../0/110126ullapoolprospectus1112.pdf‎

SCHOOL TRIPS
School trips associated with the curriculum are available during the year, especially in the upper school, such as field trips, Young Enterprise visits, Duke of Edinburgh Award events and a careers convention. Longer excursions include an S2 Activities Week, a whole school activity week at the end of June and visits abroad. In recent years an Activities Week has been held at the end of the summer term for all year groups and in 2006 there was an S3 excursion to Paris and senior school trips to Turkey as part of this week in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009.
So maybe it was a school trip after all. In which case, I stand corrected.

With Mr. Rickwood going along too.

And Trish & Sandy Cameron.

Which then begs the question: why were the Camerons going?  

Were they part of this school trip? Or were they indending to "just happen" to be there at the same time as Phil McCann and Tony Rickwood?

[Even if this was a school trip, under the circumstances, why didn't Philomena opt out and get another staff member to replace her?]


I'm not sure I'd be too happy if my child was going on this school trip, accompanied by Tony Rickwood.

See this thread: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8458-former-ullapool-teacher-struck-off-for-indecent-images

n.b. Rickwood is NOT the person referred to in the title of the thread. However, there is some information about him in that topic which could be of some concern.
I just can't understand why a month after Madeleine goes missing her family are still planning this trip. Also why take so many family members on a school trip?

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Daisy on 10.11.13 17:17

@BRODFB wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:This thread is mixing, with its discussion of the Turkey trip, with the one about Ullapool teacher struck off.
This was a school trip. One taken every year.
Philomena is there as a teacher. Why Rickwood was there is anyone's guess.
Why Trish was there is, likewise, anyone's guess.
It is fairly usual to get additional adult volunteers to go on school trips to provide the correct ratios.
That's true. However, I think it's more usual that the volunteers would have some connection to the school. I think it's most unusual for Three family members of a Teacher to be allowed to volunteer especially if they aren't known to the school.

I wonder what the ratio of adults to pupils is required for such a trip?

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by tigger on 10.11.13 17:23

I still think it was mainly for adults, some with their children. The two emails on page 1 indicate that I think. 

A schooltrip would be organised a long time in advance and a programme of activities would be in place.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Lance De Boils on 10.11.13 18:17

I wonder if a FOI request to the local education authority would be the way to find out more?
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Chiaroscuro on 10.11.13 18:51

This is extremely interesting and very curious.  It is very unusual to take anyone other than teachers on a school trip and everyone would have to be thoroughly CRB checked and trained in child protection/safeguarding.  Anyone who has ever been on a school trip will know that there is never any time for things like massages or water-skiing, it is full on looking after the children with no down time.  I cannot for the life of me work out why the Camerons were there, anyway didn't they have jobs?  They must have had VERY understanding employers.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by aquila on 10.11.13 18:55

Maybe the acid test to see if it was a school trip or not is to look at the school term calendar. I believe June is term time so it's unlikely a teacher could nip off for a personal holiday.
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Chiaroscuro on 10.11.13 18:58

Absolutely and a school trip usually has to have a very specific educational purpose to justify the expense.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by PeterMac on 10.11.13 19:28

If you switch to the Teacher struck off thread it is all there.
It WAS a school trip, they go every year, it is in the prospectus. Copies on that thread.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t8458-former-ullapool-teacher-struck-off-for-indecent-images

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 10.11.13 19:44

@Daisy wrote:
@BRODFB wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:This thread is mixing, with its discussion of the Turkey trip, with the one about Ullapool teacher struck off.
This was a school trip. One taken every year.
Philomena is there as a teacher. Why Rickwood was there is anyone's guess.
Why Trish was there is, likewise, anyone's guess.
It is fairly usual to get additional adult volunteers to go on school trips to provide the correct ratios.
That's true. However, I think it's more usual that the volunteers would have some connection to the school. I think it's most unusual for Three family members of a Teacher to be allowed to volunteer especially if they aren't known to the school.

I wonder what the ratio of adults to pupils is required for such a trip?
It's normally school staff and Governors (or other people with community ties to the school like churchwarden for CofE schools) who go on residential trips. At my child's school parents are not allowed to volunteer to accompany the trip, presumably because if all the other kids get homesick, one or two cannot be seen to have an advantage. Or maybe parents are too interfering!! Very odd arrangement here, but then Highland communities are small and not mainstream, so maybe they don't have the numbers of available helpers.

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by ultimaThule on 10.11.13 19:55

If Patricia (Trish) Cameron participated in this trip to Turkey at the end of June 2007, it directly contradicts the sworn testimony she gave on day 6 of the libel trial:

(02.10.2013, 10:25 am) (Patricia Cameron née McCann) Trish Cameron. Divorced and a nurse by occupation.
The Judge asks her where she was when Madeleine disappeared.
TC answers she was at home at the time, she was married and living in ......... She thinks that she was the first person Gerald McCann called after Madeleine was taken. She says she spoke to her local police and then spoke with her mother. She managed to get to Praia da Luz by the 5th May 2007 and remained there for 3 months before returning to the UK. She later returned to Praia da Luz.
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Guest on 10.11.13 20:10

@Chiaroscuro wrote:This is extremely interesting and very curious.  It is very unusual to take anyone other than teachers on a school trip and everyone would have to be thoroughly CRB checked and trained in child protection/safeguarding.  Anyone who has ever been on a school trip will know that there is never any time for things like massages or water-skiing, it is full on looking after the children with no down time.  I cannot for the life of me work out why the Camerons were there, anyway didn't they have jobs?  They must have had VERY understanding employers.
I've done school day trips as a parent before, no CRB check and never been asked for one either. I'd imagine (at least I'd hope) that residential/overseas trips would be a different kettle of fish however.

I remember when I was at secondary school in the 1980's there were overseas trips in term time that, looking back, were of dubious educational value. In fact some of the stories that came back were quite lurid - they did seem like little more than an excuse for the teachers and students to mingle in a less than usually formal manner. Even back then I suspected on some level that these trips were considered a "perk" of being a teacher.
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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Miss Trunchbull on 10.11.13 21:19

Sorry, can we back track here please? Very confused. 

The thread title is McCann Family Trip, but now we're homing in on a pre-planned school trip?

If it is a school trip, and PMcCann is a teacher, then I see nothing controversial - or am I missing something??

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Re: McCann Family group of 26 - Turkey trip June 2007

Post by Daisy on 10.11.13 21:42

@ultimaThule wrote:If Patricia (Trish) Cameron participated in this trip to Turkey at the end of June 2007, it directly contradicts the sworn testimony she gave on day 6 of the libel trial:

(02.10.2013, 10:25 am) (Patricia Cameron née McCann) Trish Cameron. Divorced and a nurse by occupation.
The Judge asks her where she was when Madeleine disappeared.
TC answers she was at home at the time, she was married and living in ......... She thinks that she was the first person Gerald McCann called after Madeleine was taken. She says she spoke to her local police and then spoke with her mother. She managed to get to Praia da Luz by the 5th May 2007 and remained there for 3 months before returning to the UK. She later returned to Praia da Luz.
According to her sworn statement she was back in PDL at the end of June.

"When we left in the middle of June we felt dreadful because we did not want to leave them, both Gerry and Sandy cried at the airport and I tried very hard to remain strong. Our only comfort was knowing that there were others travelling out to take our place and support Gerry and Kate. When we went back for the second time at the end of June..."

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PATRICIA_CAMERON.htm

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