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Past present and future

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Past present and future

Post by Kepharel on 11.08.13 9:22

Ever thought about life changing events? There seem to be two kinds to my way of thinking.  First off there’s the one that starts off with an intention, a life changing goal, say for example going to college and studying for a degree, or some qualification; to escape the grind of the 7:32 am commute into town and that desk full of routine paperwork.  You work and study and dream for several years until the final moment in the exam room when you put down your pen; keep your fingers crossed for the next few months waiting for the letter to land on your doormat and herald a new and better life.  Then there’s the other kind; if you’re fortunate it’s popping into the newsagent to buy a paper and some mints before, on the spur of the moment, buying THAT lottery ticket.  If you’re not so fortunate then I’m sure you can come up with a few lightning bolt scenarios for tragedy.
 
In the one case you can see it coming from a mile, in the other it’s an act of god.  So what kind of event is the mystery of Madeleine McCann?  Well for her a life changing event might just be a slim possibility, but sadly life ending, is her more probable fate.  It’s the authors of her fate though, who either studied hard for that event to occur, or were struck by a bolt from the blue, that tasks this and all the many other internet forums.
 
What I’m driving at is the fact that in order to eliminate any one scenario an investigation needs to go beyond the immediate events of the case, and while SY and the PJ may or may not have done so, we don’t know that.  All available evidence in the public domain suggests not. In interviews with the authorities we go from banalities such as ‘When did you guys first meet?’ to a forensic ‘At what time did you arrive at the tennis court?’ to a very perfunctory, almost non existent, ‘How’s things been since?’ I fully understand that such skewing of the interrogation to those few days around May 3rd is natural, obvious, and essential, and why it should be so. But with nothing to guide us, the tragedy appears by default to be one of the ‘bolt from the blue’ variety.  There is no evidence in the public domain that even suggests the Police have been considering the McCanns have been studying for any possible BSc. in Child Disposal and Cover Up before actually sitting the exam itself; still less those who should have been marking the McCann’s exam papers to see how well they have prepared, have actually evaluated them at all.  At this point, please don't bury me under conjecture, here-say, and provable snippets cos I'm going for the impressionist, not the pointilist approach here. winkwink 
 
If preplanning were an option then surely there would have been signs. In Abductio ad Absurdum some video footage of a McCann buying ‘How to Commit the Perfect Crime’ at W.H.Smith might provide a productive line in questioning for the Five O, but I think you will have got the point by now.  Did anyone question how GM came by those Police Manuals on child abduction etc, or sat him in a room for a chat with the Gaspars; I don’t think so. Or how about knitting together Kate’s religious peccadilloes: PP and his wife were friends of Kate, good enough friends to have heard about the tragedy on the evening of the 4th and to have flown out on the 8th. The police here in the UK summoned him to a Rogatory on May 8th 2008 , it appears as a character witness. He is a member of the South Wigston Team run out of the Corporation for Exercise and Salvation in Leicestershire with an interest in the biblical form.  One of his first offerings to Kate was a bible along with a suggestion for various Old Testament Psalms and Samuel 2:12. 

From Catholic Answers Website I offer the following:
 
"(The Old Testaments)…are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way. Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God.

And from PP’s Rogatory I offer
 
The passage which is marked in my wife’s bible I believe is Samuel 2:12. This passage is very significant for me and my wife but likely has so (no?) significance for Kate. I interpret this passage as saying that even though we cannot be with the two children that we have no lost, we will find them one day.”
 
So what does Samuel 2:12 actually say?  Here is Samuel 2:12 – 17 from BibleGateway.com.
 
12 Eli’s sons were scoundrels; they had no regard for the Lord. 13 Now it was the practice of the priests that, whenever any of the people offered a sacrifice, the priest’s servant would come with a three-pronged fork in his hand while the meat was being boiled 14 and would plunge the fork into the pan or kettle or caldron or pot. Whatever the fork brought up the priest would take for himself. This is how they treated all the Israelites who came to Shiloh. 15 But even before the fat was burned, the priest’s servant would come and say to the person who was sacrificing, “Give the priest some meat to roast; he won’t accept boiled meat from you, but only raw.”
16 If the person said to him, “Let the fat be burned first, and then take whatever you want,” the servant would answer, “No, hand it over now; if you don’t, I’ll take it by force.”
17 This sin of the young men was very great in the Lord’s sight, for they[a] were treating the Lord’s offering with contempt.


Very comforting read, but for what kind of person, would it help you should you lose a child in tragic circumstances, be they natural (disease etc) or not!!  Clearly PP has a handle on how to calm personal grief that I don’t.  he signs off in his Rogatory as follows:


“After meeting with Kate, I returned to Lagos and caught a taxi to Portimao where I had previously (May 2003) visited a Christian bookstore. I went with the purpose to acquire a new bible to help me through the rest of the week. Unfortunately, I did not find the bookstore.
 
Kate asked me to pray at the Marina, which I did, a number of times during the week. I returned home on Sunday, 13th of May, 2007, leaving from Faro at 9:30.”
 
Nice of him to visit!
 
I know I have dwelled somewhat, and maybe been over specific in using PP to make  my point, and I don’t believe he has anything whatsoever to contribute to the mystery, but he (PP) could well be a personification of Kate’s character and state of mind that the authorities should be looking at a little more closely; a valid reason to delve into her distant past and more near future.  Just to find out more about what she is truly capable of. Something we in the Forums have all too much anecdotal ( and other) evidence of already
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Re: Past present and future

Post by tigger on 11.08.13 9:43

From the above:
Did anyone question how GM came by those Police Manuals on child abduction?
Unquote


Yes. Quite a few. Amongst others the PJ.


It seems that whoever PP is, he may have given his bible to Kate and being without one sought to buy another post haste. 


As for the recurrent 'boat, harbour and wine- dark sea' theme - perhaps someone told Kate she'd been taken away by ship. Confusion is good and Kate evidently leaks like a basket.

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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 9:50

I'm confused ... Samuel 2:12 is a completely different text ...

" And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Samuel-Chapter-12/
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Kepharel on 11.08.13 9:55

Châtelaine wrote:I'm confused ... Samuel 2:12 is a completely different text ...

" And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die."

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Samuel-Chapter-12/
 Hi Chatelaine,

I'm not a religious person and took my google as follows 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+2%3A12-26&version=NIV

thinking it was Chapter 2 verse 12.  This would account for the discrepancy, and if you're right, my fallacious assumptions about the integrity of PP.  He, however, does quote the loss (though not physical) of 2 children rather than a child, which gave me the confidence for the quote. Samuel should really have stuck to writing one book. smilie
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Kepharel on 11.08.13 10:05

tigger wrote:From the above:
Did anyone question how GM came by those Police Manuals on child abduction?
Unquote


Yes. Quite a few. Amongst others the PJ.


It seems that whoever PP is, he may have given his bible to Kate and being without one sought to buy another post haste. 


As for the recurrent 'boat, harbour and wine- dark sea' theme - perhaps someone told Kate she'd been taken away by ship. Confusion is good and Kate evidently leaks like a basket.
 Hi Tigger,

You're right that Amaral questioned it in his book and recorded the shock of the UK police guy.  I've never come across it in the PJfiles formal interviews of witnesses, arguidos, or even informal direct questioning but could be mistaken.  It wasn't so much he handed Kate a bible, more that he saw it as a way of comforting a like minded soul. That he should feel the need to buy another straight away "to help him through the week" is not something many, even religious people, would feel IMO.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 11:19

tigger wrote:

It seems that whoever PP is, he may have given his bible to Kate and being without one sought to buy another post haste. 

 Personally. I would not give the mother of a missing child a bible where references to a dead child have been underlined and bookmarked but then again, I'm not a good christian.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 11:53

quote
"And from PP’s Rogatory I offer

“The passage which is marked in my wife’s bible I believe is Samuel 2:12. This passage is very significant for me and my wife but likely has so (no?) significance for Kate. I interpret this passage as saying that even though we cannot be with the two children that we have no lost, we will find them one day.”

Which second child?
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Kepharel on 11.08.13 12:15

Châtelaine wrote:quote
"And from PP’s Rogatory I offer

“The passage which is marked in my wife’s bible I believe is Samuel 2:12. This passage is very significant for me and my wife but likely has so (no?) significance for Kate. I interpret this passage as saying that even though we cannot be with the two children that we have no lost, we will find them one day.”

Which second child?
  Hi Chatelaine,

What I was trying to get out of this interview of PP wasn't the content of the passage itself, but the nature of it. A text that he and his wife personally gained comfort from, though not Kate (my typo correction being itself correct that is), and though we don't know why it should be significant, it goes some way to illuminating the kind of good friends who have Kate's ear. My inference being she may have a magnitude of faith beyond that she felt willing to divulge in her book and elsewhere.  I just have a feeling there is a 'crankiness' to PP's testimony that betrays a perspective on religion that isn't mainstream.  Take for example his leadership of the 'South Wigston team run out of the Corporation for Exercise and Salvation, Leicestershire.'  Not something most mainstream churchgoers aspire to.

It wasn't lost on me that, IMO he turned a character reference for Kate into a Sunday School lesson on his beliefs for the cops.  In short, he is an odd kind of guy with influence over Kate.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 13:22

Susan Healy said somewhere that her daughter wasn't religious and yet she called for a priest in the early hours of 4th, obtained church keys shortly after and extracted a bible from PP. Actions suggesting the need for closure. So while the whole of PDL was searching for Madeleine was Kate getting her comfort from 2 Samuel 12.23?

"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." 


To me it doesn't matter much which passage was highlighted - she demanded a bible not google maps and they brought in experts on media and behaviour and not trackers and investigators. 

Re pre-planned my jury's out - despite many booking issues it seems it had to be Portugal and very convenient that DW could join them. And the posters printed on 3rd and the year old pictures. I doubt there'd be a visible trail as the only info from UK pre 3rd was selected and vetted by the couple themselves. 

All of course IMO
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 13:41

I think the quote was not "particularly" religious; I have heard it said a lot that "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" and, in times of stress, people will return to what for them is a source of comfort.

In the case of the McCanns though I feel that they were simply trying to convince us that, as good Christians, they couldn't possibly be guilty of any offence...........

That certainly doesn't work for me as an atheist and I'm sure it doesn't for many believers either.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 13:59

Kapheral, you said

If preplanning were an option then surely there would have been signs. In Abductio ad Absurdum some video footage of a McCann buying ‘How to Commit the Perfect Crime’

Just a thought, maybe they had watched this film together, that gave them the idea of abduction even down to a soft toy, for them to say Madeleine had been abducted

"Murder On The Orient Express" Openig titles 2.10 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiFmYXox4p8
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Kepharel on 11.08.13 14:01

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:I think the quote was not "particularly" religious; I have heard it said a lot that "once a Catholic, always a Catholic" and, in times of stress, people will return to what for them is a source of comfort.

In the case of the McCanns though I feel that they were simply trying to convince us that, as good Christians, they couldn't possibly be guilty of any offence...........

That certainly doesn't work for me as an atheist and I'm sure it doesn't for many believers either.
 Hi NFWTD,

The thing is, have the police looked at the pre holiday state of mind, comings and goings, friendships with oddballs religious and otherwise, over and above CATS files and possible 'farming out to family' scenarios already discussed extensively in Forums that could flag up a warning of impending calamity for the child.  I'm just offering the suggestion that it is a field of investigation ripe for the tilling that could yield facts or perspectives largely overlooked by the police up to now, well as far as we know anyhow.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 14:08

CherryB, if this yarn had been written by Agatha Christie as a mystery story, people would have thought she'd lost the plot - excuse the pun!

The kidnap story in the book and film "Murder on the Orient Express" was of course heavily influenced by the real-life Lindbergh baby kidnapping and murder.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Kepharel on 11.08.13 14:11

Cherry Blossom wrote:Kapheral, you said

If preplanning were an option then surely there would have been signs. In Abductio ad Absurdum some video footage of a McCann buying ‘How to Commit the Perfect Crime’

Just a thought, maybe they had watched this film together, that gave them the idea of abduction even down to a soft toy, for them to say Madeleine had been abducted

"Murder On The Orient Express" Openig titles 2.10 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiFmYXox4p8
 Hi Cherry Blossom,

Never seen the film, but watched that clip. That is a freaky watch I have to admit Shocked and you can certainly never rule anything out with those two.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by tigger on 11.08.13 15:15

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:CherryB, if this yarn had been written by Agatha Christie as a mystery story, people would have thought she'd lost the plot - excuse the pun!

The kidnap story in the book and film "Murder on the Orient Express" was of course heavily influenced by the real-life Lindbergh baby kidnapping and murder.
 Isn't there a documentary about the kidnap which seems to prove that it was a stunt gone wrong?

That  Lindbergh had set it up for more publicity?

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Re: Past present and future

Post by mydadsanastronaut on 11.08.13 15:16

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:CherryB, if this yarn had been written by Agatha Christie as a mystery story, people would have thought she'd lost the plot - excuse the pun!

The kidnap story in the book and film "Murder on the Orient Express" was of course heavily influenced by the real-life Lindbergh baby kidnapping and murder.
Interesting that this story should be mentioned. The denouement of the novel was that the crime on the train was a conspiracy by twelve connected people, who made a pact of silence to cover up their part in it and also concocted false alibis and denied that they had known each other before the fateful journey.It had initially been suggested that a 'strange man' had entered the Orient Express and committed the crime. Poirot proved otherwise.

 Sorry, on reflection, I think thirteen conspired, but twelve people actually committed the crime. If memory serves me well.

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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 15:19

If only Poirot was here to round up the Tapas mob!

I won't go off topic with the Lindbergh baby case but will just post a link to the Wikipedia entry.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindbergh_kidnapping
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 15:56

Kepharel wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:Kapheral, you said

If preplanning were an option then surely there would have been signs. In Abductio ad Absurdum some video footage of a McCann buying ‘How to Commit the Perfect Crime’

Just a thought, maybe they had watched this film together, that gave them the idea of abduction even down to a soft toy, for them to say Madeleine had been abducted

"Murder On The Orient Express" Openig titles 2.10 in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiFmYXox4p8
 Hi Cherry Blossom,

Never seen the film, but watched that clip. That is a freaky watch I have to admit Shocked and you can certainly never rule anything out with those two.
In any pre planning they would have been able to watch lots of  mtstery/murder films especialy the CSI series how they collect evidence and disect it bit by bit,to find the cause of death and the killer/killers, imo if did, they will have been at an advantage trampling all over the crime scene, cleaning and most important of all no body.

I did read somewhere that the CSI story's are based on true crimes.

NFWTD, yes I remember reading abouit rhe Lindbergh baby. That film version of the Agatha Christie mystery is one of the best I've seen.

Ha yes Poirot or Grissom.
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 11.08.13 20:34

Cherry Blossom wrote:[...]
NFWTD, yes I remember reading abouit rhe Lindbergh baby. That film version of the Agatha Christie mystery is one of the best I've seen. [...]
***
With due respect, I know that tastes differ. In fact, in my opinion it has been the worse I've ever seen, not just on this case, but especially in terms of cinematography sad
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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 12.08.13 7:52

Châtelaine wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:[...]
NFWTD, yes I remember reading abouit rhe Lindbergh baby. That film version of the Agatha Christie mystery is one of the best I've seen. [...]
***
With due respect, I know that tastes differ. In fact, in my opinion it has been the worse I've ever seen, not just on this case, but especially in terms of cinematography sad
 There's been quite a few film versions made, do you have one that you thought was one of  the best?
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Re: Past present and future

Post by jeanmonroe on 12.08.13 15:56

Cherry Blossom wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:[...]
NFWTD, yes I remember reading abouit rhe Lindbergh baby. That film version of the Agatha Christie mystery is one of the best I've seen. [...]
***
With due respect, I know that tastes differ. In fact, in my opinion it has been the worse I've ever seen, not just on this case, but especially in terms of cinematography sad
 There's been quite a few film versions made, do you have one that you thought was one of  the best?
FBI case files.
BABY GRACE.

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Re: Past present and future

Post by Guest on 12.08.13 16:10

jeanmonroe wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:[...]
NFWTD, yes I remember reading abouit rhe Lindbergh baby. That film version of the Agatha Christie mystery is one of the best I've seen. [...]
***
With due respect, I know that tastes differ. In fact, in my opinion it has been the worse I've ever seen, not just on this case, but especially in terms of cinematography sad
 There's been quite a few film versions made, do you have one that you thought was one of  the best?
FBI case files.
BABY GRACE.
 Thanks jeanmonroe, I've only vagualy heard of Baby Grace, never read about her, but will do now.
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