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Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

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Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by aquila on 07.08.13 8:07

Attorney General set to examine case of paedophile who was spared jail after prosecutor said 13-year-old victim was ‘predatory’
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"

Post by russiandoll on 07.08.13 8:35

I have signed, this is a disgrace to the criminal justice system in the UK. A man admits to a sexual act with a child who by law cannot consent and that child is labelled a predator? Unbelievable that both a prosecuting barrister and the judge used this word to describe the behaviour of a child.
 They must have forgotten that if this girl was a little Lolita " goading " an adult male ,  she was probably sexually aware and experienced due to abuse by an adult male during her childhood. And that at 13 she is still a child.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by aquila on 07.08.13 8:54

@russiandoll wrote:I have signed, this is a disgrace to the criminal justice system in the UK. A man admits to a sexual act with a child who by law cannot consent and that child is labelled a predator? Unbelievable that both a prosecuting barrister and the judge used this word to describe the behaviour of a child.
 They must have forgotten that if this girl was a little Lolita " goading " an adult male ,  she was probably sexually aware and experienced due to abuse by an adult male during her childhood. And that at 13 she is still a child.

 bravo

They didn't forget though, their treatment of this young girl in a court of law was allowed. It was acceptable by a judge for a barrister to label a 13 year old girl a predator and for a judge to endorse it with a suspended sentence.
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 07.08.13 9:59

She was a 13 yr old girl the victim of sexual abuse, her abuser was 41 yrs old he knew it was wrong, this cihld looked to the law for help and justice, what did she get instead, being made to feel it was all her fault and a judge who in my opinion is mysogynistic.

If this judge isn't sacked or removed from his position, then he should never be allowed anywhere near sexual abuse cases.
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 07.08.13 10:05

7 August 2013 Last updated at 03:32


Complex sex abuse cases to be heard by select judges

Lord Judge said specialist courts would slow down the progress of trials



A select pool of judges with specialist training is to be created for complex child abuse cases, the head of the judiciary in England and Wales says.

They will be appointed to hear lengthy cases, trials with multiple defendants or ones when a witness is thought to be "significantly" vulnerable.
It comes amid concern over the way some victims have been treated in court.

But Lord Chief Justice Lord Judge has rejected a call by MPs for specialist courts to deal with such cases.
He said they would be costly and would slow down the progress of trials.

'Same outcome'
The idea had been put forward in a report by the Home Affairs Select Committee amid criticisms of the treatment of child witnesses by lawyers at the trials of numerous men accused of grooming and sexual exploitation.
Meanwhile, it has emerged that earlier this week a prosecuting barrister described a 13-year-old victim of sex abuse as "predatory" and "sexually experienced" during a sentencing hearing for her abuser. The Crown Prosecution Service has described the comments as "inappropriate".


“Start Quote

Whilst I agree that many judges handle cases sensitively, our experience tells me that others can be too slow to interject during overly aggressive cross-examination”
End Quote

Javed Khan Victim Support
Lord Judge rejected the idea of specialist courts in a letter to committee chairman Keith Vaz.
But he told the MP: "Instead, the combination of the other very sensible proposals in your report, including the training of advocates and the additional training of the core group of judges, will in my view deliver exactly the same outcome as a specialist court."
Lord Judge, who retires from his role at the end of September, said he accepted "the [court] process may have operated imperfectly" for some vulnerable victims and witnesses in cases involving multiple defendants, each with their own cross-examining barrister.
To help correct this, he said a limited number of judges would be put on the list to deal with such cases and they would receive "bespoke training" to improve their skills.

In his letter, Lord Judge also backed government proposals to allow young and vulnerable victims of crime to pre-record their evidence in order to avoid the trauma of appearing in court.
Lord Judge said he did not agree that specialist courts would "materially improve the position".
"It goes without saying that all of those involved in the process should be trained appropriately, but there are likely to be unintended adverse consequences if this proposal is taken forward," he wrote.
"Restricting the available venues to a few specialist centres is likely to lead to far greater waiting times because of the limited number of courtrooms, judges and staff.
"Additionally, these courts are likely to prove expensive to set up and run."
'Aggressive questioning'
Javed Khan, chief executive of the charity Victim Support, said the plans for additional judge training were "a considerable step in the right direction".
"Whilst I agree that many judges handle cases sensitively, our experience tells me that others can be too slow to interject during overly aggressive cross-examination," he said.
Mr Khan said his charity agreed that specialist courts were not the answer, but did want to see the young witness service - staffed by trained support workers - rolled out across every court in England and Wales.

A number of recent, high-profile grooming cases have brought the issue of victims' treatment to the fore.
Announcing plans for a review of aggressive courtroom questioning in June, Justice Minister Damian Green cited a child prostitution case in Shropshire in which one victim was cross-examined for 12 days by seven defence barristers.

Specialist courts already exist in England and Wales to deal with domestic violence.
In a report published in June, the Home Affairs Select Committee recommended that one existing courtroom in each region of England and Wales should be designated as the preferred court for the most serious child sexual exploitation cases
It should be selected on the basis that it has the most up-to-date technology and appropriate access and waiting facilities for victims and witnesses, the MPs said.
And they called for each court to be staffed by a team of specialist child sexual exploitation judges, prosecutors, police, witness support staff and ushers.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23595398
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by whmon on 07.08.13 10:08

IMO if the judge considers his verdict appropriate then perhaps his own background should be investigated. We know all about this 'back scratching' amongst interested parties.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by aquila on 07.08.13 10:34

" But Lord Chief Justice Lord Judge has rejected a call by MPs for specialist courts to deal with such cases.
He said they would be costly and would slow down the progress of trials."

That says it all really. The conveyor belt of court hearings. Why not just have everyone barcoded so no-one has to waste the court's time by even bothering to turn up with unpleasantries such as paedophilia. Lord forbid such a rapidly increasing heinous crime should have a specialist court. Even more helpful (to save wasting the court's time) victims can be informed by email as to what suspended sentence their life changing abuse was awarded.

How much money is wasted on reviewing outrageous lenient judgments given to paedophiles?

Sack any judge who does not deliver appropriate sentences to paedophiles. What the general public and all victims expect is justice. What is the point of having a police investigation, a CPS prosecution, a victim re-living a nightmare, a jury to deliver a guilty verdict only to have a judge give a slap on the wrist to a paedophile and call a 13 year old girl 'predatory'.

What is wrong with our society.
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by nomendelta on 07.08.13 14:48

I grew up in a pretty rough area and it wasn't uncommon for girls as young as 11 to be sleeping around. Sadly my observation of similar areas shows the problem is every bit as widespread as it was 30 years ago and indeed if anything it's worse. It is highly conceivable that the 13 year old in question was indeed sexually active and perhaps even predatory. There's one thing this idiot excuse for a judge is missing though. The law exists to protect people under 16 who are not considered BY LAW to have the emotional and intelligent level of maturity in order to make the decision about having sex. It doesn't matter how predatory the child (and it IS a child we are talking about) is, it is up to the ADULT in the case to make the right decision. This guy didn't and deserves appropriate punishment.

Two wrongs do not make a right - the girl being a product of whatever background she's a product of does not justify a man, especially one in his 40s, using her for sex.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by sallypelt on 07.08.13 14:54

@nomendelta wrote:I grew up in a pretty rough area and it wasn't uncommon for girls as young as 11 to be sleeping around. Sadly my observation of similar areas shows the problem is every bit as widespread as it was 30 years ago and indeed if anything it's worse. It is highly conceivable that the 13 year old in question was indeed sexually active and perhaps even predatory. There's one thing this idiot excuse for a judge is missing though. The law exists to protect people under 16 who are not considered BY LAW to have the emotional and intelligent level of maturity in order to make the decision about having sex. It doesn't matter how predatory the child (and it IS a child we are talking about) is, it is up to the ADULT in the case to make the right decision. This guy didn't and deserves appropriate punishment.

Two wrongs do not make a right - the girl being a product of whatever background she's a product of does not justify a man, especially one in his 40s, using her for sex.

Under British law, a person under the age of 16 years of age, can't legally give consent. To have sex with anyone under the age of consent is classed as "statutory rape".

Meaning of statutory rape:

"The criminal offense of statutory rape is committed when an adult sexually penetrates a person who, under the law, is incapable of consenting to sex. Minors and physically and mentally incapacitated persons are deemed incapable of consenting to sex under rape statutes in all states. These persons are considered deserving of special protection because they are especially vulnerable due to their youth or condition.

Most legislatures include statutory rape provisions in statutes that punish a number of different types of sexual assault. Statutory rape is different from other types of rape in that force and lack of consent are not necessary for conviction. A defendant may be convicted of statutory rape even if the complainant explicitly consented to the sexual contact and no force was used by the actor. By contrast, other rape generally occurs when a person overcomes another person by force and without the person's consent.

The actor's age is an important factor in statutory rape where the offense is based on the victim's age. Furthermore, a defendant may not argue that he was mistaken as to the minor's age or incapacity. Most rape statutes specify that a rape occurs when the complainant is under a certain age and the perpetrator is over a certain age".

One would think a JUDGE of all people, would know about this law............wouldn't one?

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by PeterMac on 07.08.13 15:59

@sallypelt wrote:
Under British law, a person under the age of 16 years of age, can't legally give consent. To have sex with anyone under the age of consent is classed as "statutory rape".
Meaning of statutory rape:
"The criminal offense of statutory rape is committed when an adult sexually penetrates a person who, under the law, is incapable of consenting to sex. Minors and physically and mentally incapacitated persons are deemed incapable of consenting to sex under rape statutes in all states. These persons are considered deserving of special protection because they are especially vulnerable due to their youth or condition.
Most legislatures include statutory rape provisions in statutes that punish a number of different types of sexual assault. Statutory rape is different from other types of rape in that force and lack of consent are not necessary for conviction. A defendant may be convicted of statutory rape even if the complainant explicitly consented to the sexual contact and no force was used by the actor. By contrast, other rape generally occurs when a person overcomes another person by force and without the person's consent.
The actor's age is an important factor in statutory rape where the offense is based on the victim's age. Furthermore, a defendant may not argue that he was mistaken as to the minor's age or incapacity. Most rape statutes specify that a rape occurs when the complainant is under a certain age and the perpetrator is over a certain age".
One would think a JUDGE of all people, would know about this law............wouldn't one?

Before this gets off track there is NO OFFENCE of Statutory Rape in English Law.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by sallypelt on 07.08.13 16:17

@PeterMac wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:
Under British law, a person under the age of 16 years of age, can't legally give consent. To have sex with anyone under the age of consent is classed as "statutory rape".
Meaning of statutory rape:
"The criminal offense of statutory rape is committed when an adult sexually penetrates a person who, under the law, is incapable of consenting to sex. Minors and physically and mentally incapacitated persons are deemed incapable of consenting to sex under rape statutes in all states. These persons are considered deserving of special protection because they are especially vulnerable due to their youth or condition.
Most legislatures include statutory rape provisions in statutes that punish a number of different types of sexual assault. Statutory rape is different from other types of rape in that force and lack of consent are not necessary for conviction. A defendant may be convicted of statutory rape even if the complainant explicitly consented to the sexual contact and no force was used by the actor. By contrast, other rape generally occurs when a person overcomes another person by force and without the person's consent.
The actor's age is an important factor in statutory rape where the offense is based on the victim's age. Furthermore, a defendant may not argue that he was mistaken as to the minor's age or incapacity. Most rape statutes specify that a rape occurs when the complainant is under a certain age and the perpetrator is over a certain age".
One would think a JUDGE of all people, would know about this law............wouldn't one?



Before this gets off track there is NO OFFENCE of Statutory Rape in English Law.

Rape in English law
[/b]This is a statutory offence created by section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

“ (1) A person commits an offence if— (a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person with his penis, and(b) the other person is under 13. ”

Any consent of the complainant is of no relevance if he or she is under the age of thirteen

But as you say, it hasn't passed into law

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by lj on 07.08.13 16:28

@nomendelta wrote:I grew up in a pretty rough area and it wasn't uncommon for girls as young as 11 to be sleeping around. Sadly my observation of similar areas shows the problem is every bit as widespread as it was 30 years ago and indeed if anything it's worse. It is highly conceivable that the 13 year old in question was indeed sexually active and perhaps even predatory. There's one thing this idiot excuse for a judge is missing though. The law exists to protect people under 16 who are not considered BY LAW to have the emotional and intelligent level of maturity in order to make the decision about having sex. It doesn't matter how predatory the child (and it IS a child we are talking about) is, it is up to the ADULT in the case to make the right decision. This guy didn't and deserves appropriate punishment.

Two wrongs do not make a right - the girl being a product of whatever background she's a product of does not justify a man, especially one in his 40s, using her for sex.


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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by sallypelt on 07.08.13 16:35

@sallypelt wrote:
@PeterMac wrote:
@sallypelt wrote:
Under British law, a person under the age of 16 years of age, can't legally give consent. To have sex with anyone under the age of consent is classed as "statutory rape".
Meaning of statutory rape:
"The criminal offense of statutory rape is committed when an adult sexually penetrates a person who, under the law, is incapable of consenting to sex. Minors and physically and mentally incapacitated persons are deemed incapable of consenting to sex under rape statutes in all states. These persons are considered deserving of special protection because they are especially vulnerable due to their youth or condition.
Most legislatures include statutory rape provisions in statutes that punish a number of different types of sexual assault. Statutory rape is different from other types of rape in that force and lack of consent are not necessary for conviction. A defendant may be convicted of statutory rape even if the complainant explicitly consented to the sexual contact and no force was used by the actor. By contrast, other rape generally occurs when a person overcomes another person by force and without the person's consent.
The actor's age is an important factor in statutory rape where the offense is based on the victim's age. Furthermore, a defendant may not argue that he was mistaken as to the minor's age or incapacity. Most rape statutes specify that a rape occurs when the complainant is under a certain age and the perpetrator is over a certain age".
One would think a JUDGE of all people, would know about this law............wouldn't one?



Before this gets off track there is NO OFFENCE of Statutory Rape in English Law.

Rape in English law
[/b]This is a statutory offence created by section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

“ (1) A person commits an offence if— (a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person with his penis, and(b) the other person is under 13. ”

Any consent of the complainant is of no relevance if he or she is under the age of thirteen

But as you say, it hasn't passed into law
However, "the law is clear that anyone who has sex (or other sexual activity) with someone aged 12 or under will automatically be committing rape, sexual assault or causing sexual activity without consent. This is sometimes known as 'statutory rape', although this term does not exist in the UK legal system".

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 08.08.13 12:33

Barrister who called 13-year-old sex abuse victim 'predatory' is barred from similar cases

Meanwhile he will not be used in similar cases - and complaints against judge being considered

Snipped 

Separately, the Office for Judicial Complaints said it would be considering complaints against the judge in the case, who appeared to accept the prosecutor’s comments when sparing the girl’s 41-year-old abuser jail.

 In a statement, the Crown Prosecution Service said that Robert Colover, QC, the prosecutor in the case at Snaresbrook Crown Court should not have used the word “predatory” and confirmed that he would be investigated by Director of Public Prosecution Keir Starmer. The statement added that the use of the word is “of real concern to the CPS”. It said: “It is not consistent with the work that we have undertaken alongside the judiciary and others in the past year to improve attitudes towards victims of abuse. We expect all of our prosecutors, including self-employed barristers who act on our behalf, to follow our guidance in these very difficult cases.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/barrister-who-called-13yearold-sex-abuse-victim-predatory-is-barred-from-similar-cases-8750521.html


Considering complaints against the judge! it should be a given.
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 12.08.13 13:33

Paedophile Term Increased In 'Predatory' Case
The man involved in a case where his victim was labelled as "predatory" has his sentence increased over a technicality


A man whose conviction over serious sexual offences prompted outrage has had his sentence increased.
Neil Wilson, 41, was handed an eight-month suspended sentence last week in a case which saw his 13-year-old victim described in court as "predatory".
Appearing via video link at Snaresbrook Crown Court in east London, Wilson was handed a 12-month suspended sentence - an increase of four months.
The judge amended the sentence due to a sentencing technicality rather than the reaction to the language used in court last week.
Wilson's original sentence for sexual activity with a child remained unchanged. Further counts over indecent photographs prompted the increased punishment

More

http://news.sky.com/story/1127533/paedophile-term-increased-in-predatory-case

Increase of 4 months suspended.  what And they call this justice, he should have been jailed
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Tony Bennett on 12.08.13 23:09

I will add, without comment, this story from personal experience.

During the 1980s, I was Principal Welfare Rights Adviser at Harlow Council. Amongst other things I used to visit disabled people and help them claim all the benefits they were enttiled to.

One disabled man I was asked to visit lived in a ground floor maisonette, on one of the larger, poorer estates in Harlow. He was not quite immobile, but sat in a chair most of the day. He was probably about 60.

He had recently been to court and successfully prosecuted for USI.

The circumstances were as follows.

There was a group of teenage girls, about 4 or 5 IIRC, who were more or less out of parental control, and roaming around the estate, smoking, flirting, wearing short skirts, probably having the odd spliff etc.

They tracked down this man and offered him sex for money.

He agreed and, over a period of time, he entertained himself with them in his house and he paid them.

Somehow the story got out to the police and he was prosecuted.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Woofer on 12.08.13 23:25

The Judge doesn`t seem to realise that often the more vulnerable an under-age girl is, the more needy they are and will exhibit their neediness.  There`s nothing to debate - whether an under-age girl is exhibiting `sexually predatory behaviour` or not, its up to the male adult to have some flippin` control. End of.
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by whmon on 12.08.13 23:47

@Woofer wrote:The Judge doesn`t seem to realise that often the more vulnerable an under-age girl is, the more needy they are and will exhibit their neediness.  There`s nothing to debate - whether an under-age girl is exhibiting `sexually predatory behaviour` or not, its up to the male adult to have some flippin` control. End of.
 
Well said!

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 12.08.13 23:51

Yes I agree but some parental responsibility certainly wouldn't go amiss either.
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by PeterMac on 13.08.13 7:25

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Yes I agree but some parental responsibility certainly wouldn't go amiss either.
And again we come up against the difference in the legal age of consent, even through Europe.
A 14 year old in Spain - normal
A 14 year old in England - serious offence.
The law believes it has to set an age, but the decision is entirely artificial, and can only be loosely based on "average" behaviour.
You then need Police and social workers to filter out those cases which need greater 'understanding'.

Almost my first case on CID was a USI - pregnant girl, referred to us by Social Services.
My recommendation was a caution - young lad, and it turned out the only reason he had gone out with this girl was that he knew he would get his oats.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by aquila on 13.08.13 8:05

It's not really the point in this case though Peter. An adult male had sexual intercourse with a girl knowing she was below the age of consent. The law is the law. If he wanted to act within the law he could live in a country that allows him to do this. He lives in UK. The age of consent is 16 here and I hope it remains at this age limit.

I'm with nomendelta and Woofer on this (please see their posts on page 2). It's up to the adult to exercise control or face the consequences (which in this case were nothing much).
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 13.08.13 9:01

However sassy, sophisticated and mature a young teenage girl may appear she simply isn't old enough or mature enough to understand the ramifications of her actions and may look back on her experiences years later and bitterly regret them.
Even if a young teenager is practically throwing themselves at an adult, it's on the adult to say 'NO' and to be the mature one and realise that the teenager is vulnerable, however confident they may appear.

If the child had been a boy would he have been called predatory for being a victim of abuse?

Will the Judge and Barrister apologise to the girl or will they find it below themselves to do that?
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by aquila on 13.08.13 9:19

Cherry Blossom wrote:However sassy, sophisticated and mature a young teenage girl may appear she simply isn't old enough or mature enough to understand the ramifications of her actions and may look back on her experiences years later and bitterly regret them.
Even if a young teenager is practically throwing themselves at an adult, it's on the adult to say 'NO' and to be the mature one and realise that the teenager is vulnerable, however confident they may appear.

If the child had been a boy would he have been called predatory for being a victim of abuse?

Will the Judge and Barrister apologise to the girl or will they find it below themselves to do that?
Good post. clapping
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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by lj on 13.08.13 18:21

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Yes I agree but some parental responsibility certainly wouldn't go amiss either.
I am sure they can find one idiot to say that it was well within responsible parenting.

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Re: Another classic piece of justice from a UK judge

Post by Guest on 08.10.13 15:31

Paedophile Neil Wilson Gets Two Year Jail Term

Neil Wilson, who walked free from court after his 13-year-old victim was branded "predatory", gets a two-year jail term

 A paedophile who walked free from court after his 13-year-old victim was branded "predatory" has been ordered to serve a two-year jail term.

Neil Wilson escaped with a 12-month suspended sentence despite pleading guilty to engaging in sexual activity with a child, making indecent images of a child and possession of an extreme pornographic image.

The Attorney General ordered a review of the case after outcry following comments from prosecuting barrister Robert Colover, who said that Wilson's victim was "predatory" and "sexually experienced".

Judge Nigel Peters QC also came in for criticism after he said he had taken account of the girl looking older than 13 when he sentenced 41-year-old Wilson.

The Court of Appeal ruled that the non-custodial punishment was "unduly lenient" and imposed an immediate two-year jail sentence.

Lord Chief Justice Lord Thomas and two other judges ordered Wilson, who was not present in court, to surrender to police in York, where he lives, by 6pm tonight.

Speaking after the hearing, Attorney General Dominic Grieve said: "Neil Wilson exploited a young and vulnerable girl. He pleaded guilty to sexual activity with a child, making indecent photographs of a child and possessing extreme pornography.

"I asked the Court of Appeal to examine whether the sentence was appropriate, given the seriousness of the offences, and I am pleased that they have found that this sentence was unduly lenient and have imposed an immediate sentence of imprisonment."

Wilson admitted abusing the girl at his home in Romford, Essex, where police also found images of child sex abuse on a computer.

Police were alerted to his actions after his victim told a friend.

Mr Colover, who was representing the CPS at the sentencing hearing at London's Snaresbrook Crown Court, said: "The girl is predatory in all her actions and she is sexually experienced."

Prime Minister David Cameron hit out at the barrister's choice of words and said: "We need a criminal justice system that stands up properly for victims. The victims of crime should always be at the centre of our thinking."

After a CPS review of the case, Director of Public Prosecutions Keir Starmer said the language used to describe the teenager was "grossly inappropriate".

Mr Colover agreed to resign from the Crown Prosecution Service's rape panel of advocates, admitting his description of the girl was "inappropriate".

Complaints about Judge Nigel Peters' sentencing remarks are being "considered" by the Judicial Conduct and Investigations Office

http://news.sky.com/story/1151713/paedophile-neil-wilson-gets-two-year-jail-term

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