Confusion About Cadaver Odour

by Swizzlestick 18.10.12 15:00

Can anybody tell me please where about in the hire car the cadaver dog sensed cadaver odour, and would he have alerted the same way if he had found blood instead?

I'm just confused after reading something about Gerry McCann's DNA being found on a car fob?

Thanks.

by LG1968 18.10.12 15:49

Swizzlestick wrote:Can anybody tell me please where about in the hire car the cadaver dog sensed cadaver odour, and would he have alerted the same way if he had found blood instead?

I'm just confused after reading something about Gerry McCann's DNA being found on a car fob?

Thanks.

Possibly the best place to start is with Gonçalo Amaral's own description of how and where Eddie reacted.

EXAMINATION OF THE VEHICLES

Not having been able to find an available garage in Lagos, we appeal to the
mayor of Portimão, Manuel da Luz. In this case as in others before, the
police have been able to count on the practical support of the mayor's
office.

Finally, on August 6th, in the unoccupied floors of an
underground car park, opposite the PJ's offices, the inspection of the
vehicles takes place. To be examined are those of Robert Murat,
Michaela, Sergey Malinka, Luiz Antonio, the McCann couple, and one that
Russell O'Brien may have used. Driven by the investigators, the cars are
parked in the reserved areas, doors closed and windows raised, with a
space of 10 metres from one to another to avoid contamination. According
to planned procedure, Eddie goes in first; Keela will be brought in if
necessary.

In the immense underground car park, Martin commands
Eddie to begin the examination. The dog then intensively sniffs each of
the first three cars, at tyre level, the side doors and the boot, then
all round. When he gets close to the fourth, the McCanns' Renault, he
becomes agitated, raises his nose while running around, as if he is
trying to locate the source of the odour he has detected. Martin tells
him to stop running around and concentrate on the search. Finally, he
starts to growl, bark and wanting to bite the bottom of the driver's
door and the boot. The odour is coming from inside. The PJ's experts
examine the vehicle for hours with the help of Keela. At dawn, traces of
human blood are found in places indicated by the female dog: the key
and the boot. The harvested samples are packed, then sent to a forensic
laboratory in Birmingham, Great Britain.

by Guest 18.10.12 15:54

Also this report from Tavares de Almeida - about half way down, Our Decision to bring in the Dogs.....................

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2146-the-report-of-tavares-de-almeida-10-sep-2007

by Springers are FAB 18.10.12 15:56

Swizzlestick wrote:Can anybody tell me please where about in the hire car the cadaver dog sensed cadaver odour, and would he have alerted the same way if he had found blood instead?

I'm just confused after reading something about Gerry McCann's DNA being found on a car fob?

Thanks.

I'v been wondering along similar lines swizzle...I seem to remember reading somewhere on here that Eddie was trained to detect cadaver AND blood...so how would Martin Grime know which he was alerting to?? The answer is probably somewhere but I'm having difficulty locating it. Will keep searching for this.

by Springers are FAB 18.10.12 16:10

OK folks
I have found what it was I was looking for about Eddie here:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

specifically:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

I find this quite confusing...so Eddie alerts to cadaver odour and blood shed by a live person??? If so, how is the difference told between Eddie finding dried blood from a living person and cadaver odour??

by LG1968 18.10.12 16:32

Springers are FAB wrote:OK folks
I have found what it was I was looking for about Eddie here:

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

specifically:

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood from a live human being or only from a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole and disintegrated material, blood, bone tissue, teeth, etc. and decomposed cross-contaminants. The dog will recognize all or parts of a human cadaver. He is not trained for 'live' human odours; no trained dog will recognize the smell of 'fresh blood'. They find, however, and give the alert for dried blood from a live human being.

I find this quite confusing...so Eddie alerts to cadaver odour and blood shed by a live person??? If so, how is the difference told between Eddie finding dried blood from a living person and cadaver odour??

I thought that the way it was worked out was if Eddie alerted and Keela didn't then it was definitely cadaver odour. But it is confusing because Keela the female dog did alert in the car according to Gonçalo Amaral and he says human blood was found in the boot and on the key fob.

by Guest 18.10.12 16:37

Eddie - detects cadaver scent

Keela - detects blood

I gave you a link in my post earlier, but here is relevant bit and this time same report from mccannfiles........

6. McCann family's clothes and belongings:

6.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* two pieces of clothing belonging to Kate McCann
* one piece of clothing belonging to Madeleine

* Madeleine’s soft toy
* the cadaver odour was detected when the toy was still inside the residence (the McCanns’, at that date)
* it was confirmed under out of the house conditions

7. The vehicle that was used by the McCann family:

7.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

7.2. Blood dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id315.html

Notice they differentiate between the two dogs, one blood, one cadaver.

by LG1968 18.10.12 16:44

But this is what Martin Grime said about Eddie.

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood
from a live human being or only from
a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole
and disintegrated material, blood,
bone tissue, teeth, etc. and
decomposed cross-contaminants. The
dog will recognize all or parts of a
human cadaver. He is not trained for
'live' human odours; no trained dog
will recognize the smell of 'fresh
blood'. They find, however, and give
the alert for dried blood from a
live human being.

He says that Eddie does alert to dried blood from a live human being. So how can anyone know whether he was alerting to the blood on the fob and in the boot that Amaral says was found by the PJ experts or to the cadaver odour? It is very confusing. Because both the dogs alerted to the same places it seems. The report didn't really differentiate between the dogs. It just said that both dogs alerted to the same places where we know from Amaral that blood was found.

by Swizzlestick 18.10.12 16:47

LG1968 wrote:
Swizzlestick wrote:Can anybody tell me please where about in the hire car the cadaver dog sensed cadaver odour, and would he have alerted the same way if he had found blood instead?

I'm just confused after reading something about Gerry McCann's DNA being found on a car fob?

Thanks.

Possibly the best place to start is with Gonçalo Amaral's own description of how and where Eddie reacted.

EXAMINATION OF THE VEHICLES

Not having been able to find an available garage in Lagos, we appeal to the
mayor of Portimão, Manuel da Luz. In this case as in others before, the
police have been able to count on the practical support of the mayor's
office.

Finally, on August 6th, in the unoccupied floors of an
underground car park, opposite the PJ's offices, the inspection of the
vehicles takes place. To be examined are those of Robert Murat,
Michaela, Sergey Malinka, Luiz Antonio, the McCann couple, and one that
Russell O'Brien may have used. Driven by the investigators, the cars are
parked in the reserved areas, doors closed and windows raised, with a
space of 10 metres from one to another to avoid contamination. According
to planned procedure, Eddie goes in first; Keela will be brought in if
necessary.

In the immense underground car park, Martin commands
Eddie to begin the examination. The dog then intensively sniffs each of
the first three cars, at tyre level, the side doors and the boot, then
all round. When he gets close to the fourth, the McCanns' Renault, he
becomes agitated, raises his nose while running around, as if he is
trying to locate the source of the odour he has detected. Martin tells
him to stop running around and concentrate on the search. Finally, he
starts to growl, bark and wanting to bite the bottom of the driver's
door and the boot. The odour is coming from inside. The PJ's experts
examine the vehicle for hours with the help of Keela. At dawn, traces of
human blood are found in places indicated by the female dog: the key
and the boot. The harvested samples are packed, then sent to a forensic
laboratory in Birmingham, Great Britain.

Thanks for that article LG.

by Swizzlestick 18.10.12 16:48

candyfloss wrote:Also this report from Tavares de Almeida - about half way down, Our Decision to bring in the Dogs.....................

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t2146-the-report-of-tavares-de-almeida-10-sep-2007

Thanks for that Candyfloss, I'll go and look at it now.

by Springers are FAB 18.10.12 16:55

candyfloss wrote:Eddie - detects cadaver scent

Keela - detects blood

I gave you a link in my post earlier, but here is relevant bit and this time same report from mccannfiles........

6. McCann family's clothes and belongings:

6.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* two pieces of clothing belonging to Kate McCann
* one piece of clothing belonging to Madeleine

* Madeleine’s soft toy
* the cadaver odour was detected when the toy was still inside the residence (the McCanns’, at that date)
* it was confirmed under out of the house conditions

7. The vehicle that was used by the McCann family:

7.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

7.2. Blood dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id315.html

Notice they differentiate between the two dogs, one blood, one cadaver.

Hi Candyfloss

I realise all the above but I'm interested in the fact that Eddie was trained to locate both cadaver AND blood as again said here by Martin Grime :

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_PERSONAL.htm

specifically:

'Eddie' The Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog (E.V.RD.) will search for and locate

human remains and body fluids including blood to very small samples in any

environment or terrain.

If Keela and Eddie both alert to something, e.g behind the sofa in the living room/key fob, then how does Grime know whether Eddie is alerting to cadaver or blood if he is trained in both? The only thing I can think is that when Eddie alerts he is definitely alerting to cadaver and POSSIBLY to blood/fluids. Obviously if he alerts and Keela doesn't then its clear cut. I'm just confused on this point. Wish I could ask the man himself!!

by Guest 18.10.12 16:58

Different signals for blood and cadaver IIRC, for one the dog freezes, the other the dog barks. Will find link later if no-one finds it in meantime.

by LG1968 18.10.12 17:14

candyfloss wrote:Different signals for blood and cadaver IIRC, for one the dog freezes, the other the dog barks. Will find link later if no-one finds it in meantime.

That would make a lot more sense. I can understand that but I don't think I have ever seen where Martin Grime describes different alerts so I can't help.

by Guest 18.10.12 17:15

WITH THANKS TO INES

09 Processos Vol IX Page 2461

09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2461

Policia Judiciaria

NUIPC 201/07. GALGS

Terms of Joining

On this date I join to the case files the translations of the verbal reports made in English by the police sniffer dog trainer Martin Grime, referring to the sniffer dog inspections carried out with the cadaver odour detection dog Eddie and the human blood detection dog, Keela.

These translations were made working from the audio-visual recordings of each of the inspections.

These terms of joining were elaborated and will be signed.

Portimao 23 August 2007

Inspector Paiva

One is a CSI Dog, i.e. Blood, and one is an EVRD dog ie Cadaver, below Grimes explains the different reactions i.e. one barks, that is Eddie Cadaver, Keela CSI dog freezes. They usually are used seperately. ............................

What we should understand with this dog is that he only barks when he finds something, he won't bark at any other times. He won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or anything like that. The only times I've ever known him bark since I've got him as a small puppy a) for his dinner and that's just excitement and that's one of the training methods we use to teach to bark when we want him to and when he actually finds something, he won't bark at other dogs, he won't bark at strangers, he won't bark when somebody knocks on the door or something like that, so again I would say that's a positive indication.

The second dog that we've seen work today is the crime scene dog Keela. She will only indicate to me when she has found human blood, only human blood and it is only blood and there must be something there physically for her to be able to alert to me that's she has actually found something. At this point over here where the victim recovery dog has indicated, as you saw on the video, the crime scene dog had actually given me what we call a passive indication where she freezes in this spot here which would indicate to me that there is some human blood there. She will find blood that's historically very old and she will find anybody's blood, any human blood, which is important to make sure that everybody knows

CANINE VEHICLE SEARCHES.

Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family,
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and
barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door.

This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the
boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a
forensic laboratory in the U.K.

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further deployed.

As you see above, the dogs are used seperately and both trained to alert to different things ie blood and cadaver, and also giving different signals when they alert.......... freezing and barking.

All above taken from this page..........

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm

by LG1968 18.10.12 17:18

That report seems to indicate that the two different dogs indicate in different ways not that Eddie has two different alerts.

Also it doesn't match what Martin Grime says about his own dog Eddie alerting to both blood and odour.

by Springers are FAB 18.10.12 17:25

LG1968 wrote:That report seems to indicate that the two different dogs indicate in different ways not that Eddie has two different alerts.

Also it doesn't match what Martin Grime says about his own dog Eddie alerting to both blood and odour.

That's how I understand it as well LG. It is ambiguous in my opinion especially as in this report Grime says

" It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent'
contaminant or human blood scent."

by Swizzlestick 18.10.12 17:26

candyfloss wrote:Eddie - detects cadaver scent

Keela - detects blood

I gave you a link in my post earlier, but here is relevant bit and this time same report from mccannfiles........

6. McCann family's clothes and belongings:

6.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* two pieces of clothing belonging to Kate McCann
* one piece of clothing belonging to Madeleine

* Madeleine’s soft toy
* the cadaver odour was detected when the toy was still inside the residence (the McCanns’, at that date)
* it was confirmed under out of the house conditions

7. The vehicle that was used by the McCann family:

7.1. Cadaver odour detection dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

7.2. Blood dog:

* marked the car key
* marked the inside of the car boot

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id315.html

Notice they differentiate between the two dogs, one blood, one cadaver.

Thanks for that further info Candtfloss.

by Swizzlestick 18.10.12 17:31

LG1968 wrote:But this is what Martin Grime said about Eddie.

'The dog EVRD also alerts to blood
from a live human being or only from
a cadaver'
The dog EVRD is trained using whole
and disintegrated material, blood,
bone tissue, teeth, etc. and
decomposed cross-contaminants. The
dog will recognize all or parts of a
human cadaver. He is not trained for
'live' human odours; no trained dog
will recognize the smell of 'fresh
blood'. They find, however, and give
the alert for dried blood from a
live human being.

He says that Eddie does alert to dried blood from a live human being. So how can anyone know whether he was alerting to the blood on the fob and in the boot that Amaral says was found by the PJ experts or to the cadaver odour? It is very confusing. Because both the dogs alerted to the same places it seems. The report didn't really differentiate between the dogs. It just said that both dogs alerted to the same places where we know from Amaral that blood was found.

Yes LG, it is confusing.

by LG1968 18.10.12 17:47

It says that his victim recovery dog Eddie alerted to blood.

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2006/August2006/News250806/brit.htm

British dog helps Irish Police and FBI

A SNIFFER dog that
helped detectives jail evil killer Trevor Hamilton has just returned
from assisting the FBI with a murder probe in America.

Six-year-old English Springer spaniel Eddie's career
took off internationally shortly after he returned to Northern Ireland
for a third time to help in the hunt for missing Arlene Arkinson.

Eddie helped police nail Hamilton after the
victim-recovery dog found blood from Attracta Harron (63) on a mat from
Hamilton's burnt-out Hyundai car. Hamilton burned the car the same day
that he murdered the retired librarian.

by Guest 18.10.12 17:59

I agree about the confusen , but the answer is probably that if he found and barked for blood, the other dog would have marked there as well, and also blood be found. If im not wrong, they both marked a finding behind the sofa also the only place they did find spots of blood., but only Eddie, trained for cadaver and blood marked on the clothes, cuddle cat, closeth, car etc? Seems logical, and probably why they used a pure blood dog in addition to Eddie?

by saltnpepper 18.10.12 18:01

If a cvrd dog reacted to human blood,how often would it be barking...it must be in every home,a dog handler would only bring in a csi dog if the cvrd dog has alerted & then only in the region of the cvrd dogs alert,the csi dogs alert always have a proof test in that the forensics will lift for evidence to be tested, if they alert in the same spot as the cvrd dog that in itself is an indication,just think...if eddie alerted to blood then why bother with keela?

Is there a difference between blood from a living or dead person?...scientifically of course

by Guest 18.10.12 18:08

Yes, that's right saltnpepper, they would alert in every house in the land. It's total nonsense. EVRD (Enhanced Victim Recovery Dog) i.e. Cadaver dog, that is what it alerts to Human death scent, which includes human decomposed /old blood, body fluids etc,

Keela finds the smallest traces of blood. Used in conjunction, they are almost without a doubt, definitve proof of a death in that area.

by saltnpepper 18.10.12 18:17

Sorry EVRD,have seen so much work by certain posters on another site to discredit these dogs for the simple reason in that it points a very big finger in a certain direction Confusion About Cadaver Odour 302873

by Nina 18.10.12 18:18

Moa wrote:I agree about the confusen , but the answer is probably that if he found and barked for blood, the other dog would have marked there as well, and also blood be found. If im not wrong, they both marked a finding behind the sofa also the only place they did find spots of blood., but only Eddie, trained for cadaver and blood marked on the clothes, cuddle cat, closeth, car etc? Seems logical, and probably why they used a pure blood dog in addition to Eddie?

Exactly Moa, blood behind the sofa, and Eddie barked and Keela froze, apart from her sweet little tail smilie

Keela also alerted with her freeze inside the car and the key fob, but not at the clothing or cuddle cat that Eddie alerted to, so no blood on those items, just cadaverine. Incidently watched long video today, over an hour about the alerts in 5A and the search by the dogs in the final place the McCs stayed in and I am sure there was a second cuddle cat on the floor of the living room, besides the precious on that belonged to Madeleine that was shoved in a cupboard awaiting it's next public airing winkwink

The video is on the Martin Grime thread and is at 1 minute 54. eddie knocks over a waste basket and out spills a pink cuddle cat, he then finds one in the cupboard that he alerts to for Cadaverine. So two cuddle cats Mrs

Must say i found the search very interesting as it showed inside 5A in greater detail.

by Guest 18.10.12 18:31

saltnpepper wrote:Sorry EVRD,have seen so much work by certain posters on another site to discredit these dogs for the simple reason in that it points a very big finger in a certain direction

Certain people from another site, can't think who you mean saltnpepper Confusion About Cadaver Odour 302873

The very same people that spend all day on twitter tweeting exactly the same stuff that is on this thread, no, surely not. Confusion About Cadaver Odour 110921