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Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

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Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

Post by Kepharel on 09.07.13 1:46

This is 11,00 words so if Admin think it is too long or not fit because of any other reason then feel free to delete.  It is a readable summary, in three parts due to it's length, as best as I can do of this interview.  Did anything stand out for me, well the inconsistencies are glaring, but I was intrigued by the spare mobiles Payne obtained for the McCanns which were delivered to the Portimao Police Station as I had not read anything substantial on it before...maybe others can put me right.  The thought also passed my mind, as it must have done many times on these forums that while Yvonne Martin may have not been able to recall Payne, it is a distinct possibility that he knew her.  His interview comments have a very defensive tone in my opinion.
12th April 2008
PJ Roagtory Interview with David Payne

Summary of Praia Da Luz Activities with David Payne.

Booking the Holiday to 28th April 2007.

David Payne says he did the booking of the holiday directly with Mar Warner. He also recollects that Kate was initially uneasy about the holiday, and had mentioned the fact to Fiona, though she could not say exactly why.  Gerry though had put her at ease about the matter.  Payne couldn't say for sure why she was uneasy, but offers a possibility that Kate  wasn't enthusiastic about the logistics of organising her side of the holiday.  Asked whether this unease manifested itself during the holiday Payne could not be sure he could because of the subsequent events.

Payne recounts his discussions with Mark Warner concerning keeping the group together geographically at the resort. He recounted how Mark Warner had initially given assurances there would be no problem, but they then retreated from that to say they could not guarantee it but would try their best.  This was because of the commercial relationship they had with the Ocean Club who appeared also to have rights on where guests might stay.
Payne also raises another issue that cropped up, which he believed was discussed in email correspondence, which was one of child care. Payne says they (presumably Mark Warner/Ocean Club) had a listening service of the kind they offered at all their other resorts. Additionally Payne also raised the topic of meals, and whether the holiday was half board.  He was told that half board was not an option for the holiday booking he was making. Another point he brought up with the interviewer was a ten percent discount Mark Warner had made, subsequent to his booking being made.  Upon complaining Payne was offered a discount on the holiday.
Continuing the interview Payne recounts how other Mark Warner holidays they had been on had been trouble free to book, he had no choice this time because the Portugal option was the only one due to other Mark Warner sites being closed and anyway, the timing was convenient for the group.

On being asked what he understood the nature of the listening service Mark Warner were offering, Payne offered the following.
·         You have to ask for the service.
·         You will need to supply details of your accommodation.
·         They will listen outside the room to check if a baby is crying.
·         The cycle of listening by mark Warner staff had been 30 minutes in other of their resorts he had used.
·         The Portugal resort also had a 'drop in crèche facility' for the evenings. Though he did not know the time schedule for this particular facility.
He then told the interviewer he recollected the group had decided they could do just as well as the listening service offered by the resort.

Answering questions about the flight arrangements Payne said they had flown out from East Midlands Airport with Dianne Webster, Gerry and Kate at about 9:00 - 9:30 a.m.  the flight was uneventful and the children were well behaved. Lily and Madeleine had met before and were enjoying each others company.  he states he has video footage of Madeleine slipping and banging her leg.  During this time, they had exchanged texts with the rest of the group who had already arrived, having flown out of Heathrow or Gatwick, he couldn't be sure which.

On being asked if Kate was still expressing doubts about the holiday, Payne said she was not, and looked like she was warming to the holiday.  Once at Faro, they made use of a taxi that Gerry had priorly booked.  The journey to Praia Da Luz took about 40 minutes.  At the resort there was a short delay due to difficulty in the Payne party finding their way around until they had found the Ocean Club reception. During their tour they also received texts from Matthew Oldfield and Russell O'brien telling them what they were up to.
On being asked to describe their room, Payne provided a sketch, but his oral testimony is useless due to his not specifying which rooms were to the left, right or ahead of each other, merely pointing out to the interviewer, presumably, the details of the sketch.  It is explained during the conversation that Dianne Webster is to sleep on a sofa bed in the living room.

The next topic of conversation concerned how secure was the door to Payne's apartment. Payne replied that once the door was shut, entry could only be gained into the apartment with keys. They left their key under the mat during the day. Getting to the first floor and their apartment could be achieved either by stairs or lift.  A walkway serviced other apartments on the first floor. To the side of the apartment was a balcony that overlooked a car park. Payne then produced another sketch showing their apartment and the stair and lift access and its relative position with regard to the other apartments.

The interview then returned to the listening arrangements of the group for their children.  Payne explained their reliance on a digital monitor they had brought with them.  they relied on the fact their children could not get out of their cots, so their only concern would be hearing them crying.  he explained his confidence in the reliability of the monitor and when asked where they placed the intercom in their apartment.  This was pointed out on the sketch together with their assurance the rooms in the apartment were left open.

returning to the matter of security, Payne was asked about the sliding patio doors.  He explained that it was difficult to lock, and was temperamental regards both opening and locking.  he also informed the interviewer there was only one lockable room inside the apartment, the bathroom. On being asked what the number of his apartment Payne expressed difficulty in recalling it other than the number 4.

The conversation again centred around the arrival of the group to the resort.  On being asked what time they arrived, Payne was vague saying only between 3:00 - 4:00 p.m. in the afternoon. Payne also commented on difficulties in getting the cot situation in the group sorted out, commenting that Gerry and Kate being short of one.  Neither can he remember, on first recollection, whether it was the Saturday or Sunday night they first went to the Millennium. On being asked when the group left the apartments on the first night after settling in, he said he could not remember.  On being encouraged to consider more carefully Payne replied it would have been several hours.

On being asked if the whole party left as a group he said he couldn't remember, but decided that the Millennium visit, on reflection was the Saturday, and the whole group did, indeed, go. When asked if the group left as one at the end of the meal Payne said he could not recall.  neither could he recall if they went anywhere else before settling for the night, but certainly not the Tapas Bar.  Payne now volunteers that he felt their apartment was the best in the group, maybe because he had done all the initial complaining. On the suggestion others in the group may have resented his apartment being better, Payne replied that nothing was said directly.

Returning to the listening service issue, Payne was asked whether anyone had commented on it the first night.  he replied that because the group was divided by High Chairs he could not  be sure if it was never mentioned by anyone.  He then makes a point that appears to suggest, without proof, that other members of the group would have felt the same as him, that the resort was inherently safe. Payne next raises the issue that the Millennium restaurant was unsuitable for the group due to its distance from the apartments, at least from the childrens perspective, and the proximity of a main road.

Asked whether, after the Millennium Restaurant, anyone visited anyone else's apartment, he said he could not recall.  On being asked if he could see the Tapas Bar from his balcony Payne replied he could partially see it, but was hindred by Screening, and he could see the pool. he tells the interviewer that he thinks the Tapas is about 30 metres as the crow flies, and a couple of minutes to walk to.  there were two ways to get there.
·         Down the stairs, through the car park, turn right, down the main road to the main entrance.
·         Another way was to be able to go 'slightly to the side'
There was not much difference between the two.

29th April 2007 - 2nd May 2007.

On being asked how they sorted out their activities on the first day Payne replied that he and Fiona were keen on the Watersports.  He was also keen to put the kids into the crèche in the morning because they slept in the afternoon.  He says only that 'perhaps' they would have gone down to the water sports area to sign up for activities, maybe windsurfing or the dinghies: He can't recall if they actually did. Payne remarks other members of the group were more interested in the Tennis side of things.
When asked about breakfast Payne says he can't remember if they had gone to the supermarket for supplies or to the Millenium restaurant.  When questioned about what time the kids were taken to the creches Payne replied they went to different parts of the Resort. Scarlet down by the Ocean Club, and Lily by the Tapas bar.  Fiona would Take Scarlet after breakfast.  Because they stayed on for four weeks Payne says he can't recall  the children's arrangements for each day after the apartment breakfast that morning.
Concerning Breakfast Payne now suggests that for most of the time they ate breakfast at the Millennium, usually finishing at 9:00 a.m.   Once the kids were in their crèches he says the morning was spent on various sporting activities or shopping at the supermarket with the group in mind.

Payne agrees that their apartment became the unofficial meeting place for the group.  He suggests it may have been because Dianne Webster was a 'free pair of hands'.  there were often lunchtime meals with Russell O'brien and Jane Tanner, and occasionally with Matthew and Rachael Oldfield.  Kate and Gerry would usually make their own arrangements during the day.  To the suggestion that the group didn't stay together by prior agreement, Payne said that was not the case, juts the way it worked out;  that they didn't see much of Kate and Gerry was due to their children's different daytime sleep cycles.

On the suggestion that the interviewer was not going to go through every day, Payne makes a rambling statement which basically says their own sport activities, and their time with the children cannot be seperated in his mind.  he does recall however that it is Rachael who organises a block booking for the Tapas Bar.

Payne agrees that from the 29th April they ate at the Tapas Bar every night.  On being asked about the groups child listening arrangements Payne states that because it was a large group he cannot recall whether any individual was awa y from the table at any specific time.  he also mentions his child monitor which absolved him from physically leaving the table.  He does suggest that the timings were probably no longer than thirty minutes.  Payne also comments that he can remember if members were not there for an entire evening, and gives Matthew Oldfield being sick as an example.

When asked if he can remember a time when Matthew Oldfield and then Jane Tanner had left the table, he ignore the question and only repeats that at one time Matthew Oldfield was absent, and other members of the group  when their children were ill. When asked if he could see his own apartment from the Tapas he says yes and he tried to sit where he could see his apartment if at all possible.
On being asked if Payne could recall any stand out moments leading up to 3rd May Payne says that apart from the days being cold on occasion, things were okay.  Questioned further about their activities coinciding with those of the group, Payne remains silent.  The matter of the Beach is then suggested to him. Payne replies that he would occasionally see his own children there in the Mark Warner Group, but they tried not to be seen by them if possible.  Also he would see Matthew Oldfield there because he was good on the Catamaran.

Returning to the Tapas evening meals Payne comments that he was usually last to arrive, although the meal was booked for 8:30 p.m. Being asked to explain how the children were seen to before bed he replied that because Scarlet was so young there was no reliable sleep pattern but on most nights they were asleep before he and Fiona left.  Pressed on whether they would definitely be asleep he replied that they would certainly leave when they were asleep, and he can't remember if they ever were left without being asleep.
Asked about what time they would be put to sleep Payne gave a rambling reply about eating at the kids club and sometimes in their room, and how fussy the kids were about their food. In between, six o'clock was mentioned, presumably about the time they would be put to bed, finally being stretched to 7:00 p.m for their bath and 7:30 p.m. for bed. Another reason for lateness was put down to three people sharing one bathroom.

Turning to how the apartment was left, Payne says the balcony doors were always shut, and the monitor positioned as previously described and the T.V. switched off.  Dianne Webster took care of the key and the door was locked upon their leaving. The shutters were always down at night, though they may have been raised occasionally during the day to let in light.  Invited to continue, Payne says he did have the key at the beginning of the holiday but lost it.  when it was found, Dianne Webster took on the responsibility.  On the way to the Tapas, up until Thursday,  Payne cannot remember meeting anyone else, or groups passing by.

Being asked about the resort, was it busy etc., Payne gave a long rambling reply that took in:
·         It seemed very quiet.
·         It was only the second bookable week.
·         Mark Warner Staff were still new.
·         The beach was beautiful.
·         The pool was only lightly used and the water was cold.
·         The Tapas was deserted during the daytime and only lightly used at night.
·         The Millennium on the first night was almost empty.
·         It was windy.

A quick question was asked about whether they had checked any of the other kids in the group was answered no, partly because he would not have felt comfortable checking them as they were'n't his kids.  Finally before the break Payne was asked about any suspicious people he may have seen, and recounted some gardeners and Kate and Gerry's apartment needing shutter and fridge repair.

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“This boy’s making more noise than a couple of skeletons throwin’ a fit on a tin roof”

Post by The Rooster on 09.07.13 8:31

Well done Kepharel, I'm glad you published. Will read this evening. I'm sure Payne has things in his cupboard he won't want known. Thanks once again.

F J Leghorn
"DOO-Dah! DOO-Dah-Day!"
The Rooster

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Re: Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

Post by Guest on 09.07.13 8:58

Thanks Kapharel,

Perseverance is the key.

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Re: Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

Post by russiandoll on 09.07.13 9:12

Am I correct in thinking it is Kepharel who decided to leave the forum because he/she was believed to be a mischief-maker? Having taken the time to do what he/she has re the Payne rogatory, I hope he/she will reconsider.


             The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate,
contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and
~John F. Kennedy


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Re: Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

Post by Guest on 09.07.13 9:30

@russiandoll wrote:Am I correct in thinking it is Kepharel who decided to leave the forum because he/she was believed to be a mischief-maker? Having taken the time to do what he/she has re the Payne rogatory, I hope he/she will reconsider.

russiandoll, he's posted on

English or Payneglish,?
 Kepharel Today at 12:32 am

Which will explain

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Re: Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

Post by Woofer on 09.07.13 9:58

@russiandoll wrote:Am I correct in thinking it is Kepharel who decided to leave the forum because he/she was believed to be a mischief-maker? Having taken the time to do what he/she has re the Payne rogatory, I hope he/she will reconsider.

 I think Kepharel is a `he` as he has referred to his wife in previous posts.

btw -  Glad you`re back with us Kepharel

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Re: Payne Rogatory Lite part 1.

Post by sheila.edwards on 09.07.13 15:57

thank you R for posting, will have a read later with co-co


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