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Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by AndyB on 27.06.13 22:04

@Kepharel wrote:
I merely suggested that it would have been possible for Payne and Murat to have known each other through the 'specialist pornography websites.  I did try to link GM DP and RM together for being interested in sex sites.  I was also implying that the McCanns would be in and out of Portugal in a week and out of the jurisdiction of the Portugues police and untroubled by the British police.  If my scenario had been trouble free the abduction would have been a fact...news for a while..like Ben Needham which gently went away. It was never envisaged that the TAPAS 7 would come under the sustained fire they did once blood had been found in the apartment.  I could not explain the McCanns almost suicidal courting of publicity in this scenario other than to say when according to me the trade didn't happen then the fund stepped in in its place.  Come on...I did say it was all rubbish, but I wanted to have a go anyway.
Sorry, I wasn't having a go, and I do like the idea of a faked abduction gone wrong, but, like I say, I find it less than credible.  The title of the thread is " Can you come up with a credible scenario ?". Had I know we were we allowed to stretch the credibility requirement I think I would have persisted with my idea, stolen from Dan Brown, of Gerry being involved in some sort of ultra secretive sect in the catholic church and Madeleine being snatched by the Prior of Scion. The crack squad of professional abductors would have used some sort of anaesthetic gas on the twins & Madeleine to keep them quite while the abduction took place and opened a window to allow the gas to escape. Kate returned, caught a whiff of the gas and, because she's  aware of the threat to Madeleine instantly knew what had happened.

I guess the main point is that its very difficult, if not impossible to come up with a scenario that allows the McCanns to be telling the truth without resorting to the highly improbable

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Rufus T on 27.06.13 22:07

Kepharel that was a fantastic piece of writing, you have made my night. Although it was obvious from the tone of the piece that it was a work of fantasy, that didn't stop me enjoying every word.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 27.06.13 23:52

Kepharel, it's fine. Just wondered what on earth I was reading for a minute, I thought you can't be serious :)

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 28.06.13 0:09

Stick to the rules, guys !
No aliens, No Levitation (Leve-tation ?)
Everything must be in the statements

We are trying to find the scenario which will prove
beyond a reasonable doubt, that MBM was, (or even 'could have been'), abducted.


If the abductor is ever found, this will be crucial to the prosecution case.
The will need to show what he did, how he did it, the evidence on which each of those assertions can be based, and on the time frame in which he did it.
So that the jury are sure; so that there it no reasonable doubt.

This is not a joke.
Madeleine Beth McCann is missing and her whereabouts are not known.  
Her mother refused to answer questions which might have led to her discovery.
The entire Tapas7 group refused to take part in an exercise which might have led to important facts' being disclosed, which might have led to further enquiries.

We must continue to tease away at the possible scenarios.

So far "hiding sea bass behind the sofa because the fridge was broken" fits every aspect of the official version.
Sadly !

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by lynsi001 on 28.06.13 0:41

Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by marconi on 28.06.13 1:19

oh, no, don't tell me that the yard will START an investigation. Over and over again?

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by aiyoyo on 28.06.13 4:17


Good try by Kepharel, but impossible to have happened!
The scenario as described took place just before alarm was raised.
But importantly investigators found not an iota of forensics presence whatsoever of Murat or a stranger for that matter having been in the apt.
In that timeline there is just no time for the clinical stye clean out, wiping it of all traces of those visitors and their activities.

Sorry Kepharel, the prize is reserved for the author who penned "seabass behind the sofa" until someone comes up with a better story.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by bobbin on 28.06.13 9:38

[quote="Kepharel"]
The Abduction of Madeleine McCann
 
Introduction
 
snipped
 Gerry approaches the subject with Kate and after due consideration they persuade themselves that it is the only way out.  Once Gerry tells Payne its game on, the latter says he may know someone who could help, someone who frequents the same ‘specialist’ websites as himself.
[color=#050000] so are you saying Robert is a paedophile, like Payne, preferring 3 year old girls?]
Payne contacts Robert Murat and tells him the problem, but it is imperative the little girl goes to a good secure family home.  Murat says he can make it happen.  Payne and McCann then get together and begin to make plans. Because Murat is resident in Portugal, a holiday is arranged by Payne at Praia Da Luz, near to where Murat lives, for a group of the regular friends during which the trade can take place.  The pair are careful to check out the consequences under Portuguese law for what they are about to do. But what about all the other doctors at Mark Warner's, is it coincidence that so many doctors were on holiday there at the same time.?
 
Come the 3rd of May the deal has been finalised, with Murat the middleman for the trade. So why did Murat 'rush' back to Portugal, booking and taking a flight at last minute, if it was all arranged to take place in an orderly fashion?
(Here I would remind you of the only 4 reliable markers on the timeline, the rest of it is pure fabrication that can be diregarded). The McCanns sedate their children with a large dose of Calpol before going to the Tapas.  They are told to leave the door open so that the abduction can take place with the minimum of fuss.  At
9.00pm Murat gets a call from the abductor to say it has all gone horribly wrong.  The girl woke up as he picked her up and struggled free.  She had run to the door and onto the balcony before tripping on the steps and falling.  The abductor tells Murat she is dead, and he has taken her back into the apartment and left her behind the sofa on the floor.  After which the abductor legs it. 
The pattern of the blood spats shown on the wall are not consistent with a fall outside and the body being brought inside. What about the cadavour odour, how did that develop between 8.30 p.m when the McCs left for dinner and the death occurring around 9.30 max, Gerry and Payne had had to have time to make quick plans, and Kate had to over-ride any natural reactions at the death of her child and then pretend at 10 p.m. that an 'abduction' had taken place, instead of a botched job where her child had died? When was there time to wash and rehang the curtains, when and who cleaned the apartment so meticulously that there was no forensic evidence of Madeleine (save the blood which had been damaged by a thorough cleaning of bleach) or any much sign of children having lived in the apartment for a week? Why was no forensic evidence found of the 'abductor'? was he wearing a forensic suit and paper socks?
Murat calls around to the Tapas and gets Paynes attention while everyone is drinking and dining.  He tells him of the tragedy.  Payne tells him to wait near the apartment until he and Gerry can slip away and see the scene for themselves. 

 
While Payne and Murat are in the apartment Gerry bumps into Jeremy Wilkins for THAT conversation.  Once rid of Wilkins Gerry enters the apartment and they decide to temporarily store the body in the parent’s bedroom.  Murat says he will wait for Payne to call at the villa while they decide what they want to do.  Payne tells Gerry to make the whole scene look like there has been an abduction so Gerry plays around with the windows, Only Kate's finger print is found on the window, not Gerry's, not on window nor blind.
pushes the sofa against the wall and all the other suspicious stuff that was noticed in the apartment before returning to the Tapas, giving Kate the bad news and asking Payne to get in touch with Murat to see, as he is a local, if there may be somewhere to hide the body, to which he agrees.

 
While Kate acts out the dramatic ‘We’ve let her down’ show, Payne has called on Murat and persuaded him that it would be in his interests, being involved himself, if he could find somewhere safe to hide the body.  Murat says he has access to a refrigeration Unit in the locale and picks up the body from the apartment and makes his way down to the Town where he is seen by the Smiths at
The Smiths say it 'was not' Murat, that they knew him and know it was NOT him.
10.00pm before storing the body. Sometime between 10.00pm and 10.50pm when the GNR arrive, despite all the searching and tiswas, the entire Tapas gather together, at least for a while, to build the timeline they will hold onto at all costs: Their motivation for doing this?  Gerry tells the assembled inebriates that it isn’t just him, who has lost a child, in trouble; they are all in trouble to some degree for leaving their children unattended.  Jane is apparently at her apartment for her own visits and to take over from Russell who was there already. So why would Jane and Russell feel part of the 'neglect risk' since one or both of them were in situ and why would Jane then perjure herself for Gerry or Robert?
He gently tells them there is a law in
Portugal that addresses such goings on as child abandonment that carries a maximum term of 8 years jail. Being inebriated no-one thinks to ask how he happens to know this.
 
From the Maddiefiles is a Q&A from an interview given by Amaral at the Kazlux meeting in Amsterdam.
 
Q: Do you think the body was refrigerated?
A: Yes. The bodily fluid in the car show that. If the body had been buried there would have been mummification. The fact that there were fluids points to refrigeration.
 
McCanns hire a Renault Scenic.  One quiet night Murat ‘borrows’ it, picks up the refrigerated body and disposes of it once and for all.
 
So there you have it, abduction, BUT abduction is not the same as removal of dead body, and whilst focussing on Murat, what about Gerahty and why did he garage the McCs car and help with the 'apparent' forensic testing which found no evidence. For my part, I wonder if the car handed back to the McCs was in fact a different car, but same make, with maybe the registration plates changed over, whilst the police kept the original...... who knows !! If I were the police, that's what I would do.
but only in the technical sense, and anyway it is all a load of rubbish.


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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by bobbin on 28.06.13 10:05

Following last post about police possibly handing a different car back to the McCs, I also have wondered if the 'new' or even 'old' apartment, or their new car, was bugged. In the case of the couple who burned their children, the hotel room where the couple and their mate were put up, was bugged by UK police.spin

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Kepharel on 28.06.13 10:21

@aiyoyo wrote:
Good try by Kepharel, but impossible to have happened!
The scenario as described took place just before alarm was raised.
But importantly investigators found not an iota of forensics presence whatsoever of Murat or a stranger for that matter having been in the apt.
 In that timeline there is just no time for the clinical stye clean out, wiping it of all traces of those visitors and their activities.

Sorry Kepharel, the prize is reserved for the author who penned "seabass behind the sofa" until someone comes up with a better story.

Hi Alyoyo, and Bobbin too
 
For those who express whether they like or hate the my idea, no problem, glad you liked it, sorry you hated it J J.
 
For a short while I will try to defend my scenario against criticisms of the facts. I have already had to hold my hands up regarding the Smith sighting, and I am quite willing to do that.  All in the spirit of honest debate…no hurt feelings on either side J
 
Regarding the fact no trace of an abductor was ever found…
 
From Kates book….
 
“People had been in and out of the apartment for the last 3 hours, and until one of the PJ officers stuck a piece of police tape across the doorway of the children’s room, it was Gerry who tried to make sure everyone kept clear of it….(one of the PJ men)….with a brush and a pair of latex gloves…he also tried to take fingerprints from Gerry and me.  Unsuccessfully as it turned out: we had to provide them again at the police station the next day”
 
and from Amaral’s book
 
A forensic expert assigned to security of the premises will join him. All precautions are taken to preserve possible clues and elements of evidence. I demand to be informed very regularly and, before going home, I call on the police on duty to check that all urgent measures are underway. The head of the Guard has already alerted the police authorities at Faro airport and the control post set up on the Guadiana* bridge.
(*The river on the frontier between Portugal and Spain.)
THE REPORTS LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED
 
The examination of the premises by the investigator and the representative of the forensic police just after the announcement of the disappearance turns out to be quite unproductive.
 
This doesn’t inspire confidence in the assertion that an abductor/Murat can exclusively be ruled out of the investigation.  After all, the abductor, in my scenario would probably not been in the apartment for more than 30 seconds total.  Deep cleaning could have been undertaken most any time after the 3rd.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 28.06.13 22:28

@lynsi001 wrote:Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

 Yes, that is a possibility lynsi001. Yet, if that were the case, how bad would that make the Tapas group, to be lying about timings and about the checks made if a child's life were really in danger?

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 28.06.13 22:37

@PeterMac wrote:
We are trying to find the scenario which will prove
beyond a reasonable doubt, that MBM was, (or even 'could have been'), abducted.


If the abductor is ever found, this will be crucial to the prosecution case.
The will need to show what he did, how he did it, the evidence on which each of those assertions can be based, and on the time frame in which he did it.
So that the jury are sure; so that there it no reasonable doubt.

This is not a joke.
Madeleine Beth McCann is missing and her whereabouts are not known.  
 
PeterMac, I'm a bit concerned about all of this. After all, someone must be responsible for MM's disappearance, couldn't we actually be giving them ideas here, to use in their own defence if they were ever charged?

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 28.06.13 23:39

@suzyjohnson wrote:
PeterMac, I'm a bit concerned about all of this. After all, someone must be responsible for MM's disappearance, couldn't we actually be giving them ideas here, to use in their own defence if they were ever charged?

Probable and possible and credible ideas so far  . . .
1   Sea bass hidden behind the sofa because the fridge was broken.

And what else ?

Remember that the scenarios HAVE to fit exactly with what the statements say. Some people have begun to propose other theories  (sorry - purport !) but that is against the rules.
If we can find the scenario, the exact way in which madeleine could have been abducted within the evidence we have been given, then it is our duty to reveal it and give it immediately to the PJ and the Met. so that it can be followed up.
So far, after 6 years we have failed.  Abjectly.
As have TM, CM, PJ, SY, Leicestershire, NCPI, CEOPS, M3, Halligen, ALPHAIG, Old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh . . .
Not ONE person has been able to come up with a scenario which is even possible, let alone credible.
So we must continue to try.
for the sake for the immortal Soul of Madeleine Beth McCann.
Whose demise was celebrated thus . . .

" />

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Kepharel on 29.06.13 6:48

@PeterMac wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
PeterMac, I'm a bit concerned about all of this. After all, someone must be responsible for MM's disappearance, couldn't we actually be giving them ideas here, to use in their own defence if they were ever charged?

Probable and possible and credible ideas so far  . . .
1   Sea bass hidden behind the sofa because the fridge was broken.

And what else ?

Remember that the scenarios HAVE to fit exactly with what the statements say. Some people have begun to propose other theories  (sorry - purport !) but that is against the rules.
If we can find the scenario, the exact way in which madeleine could have been abducted within the evidence we have been given, then it is our duty to reveal it and give it immediately to the PJ and the Met. so that it can be followed up.
So far, after 6 years we have failed.  Abjectly.
As have TM, CM, PJ, SY, Leicestershire, NCPI, CEOPS, M3, Halligen, ALPHAIG, Old Uncle Tom Cobbleigh . . .
Not ONE person has been able to come up with a scenario which is even possible, let alone credible.
So we must continue to try.
for the sake for the immortal Soul of Madeleine Beth McCann.
Whose demise was celebrated thus . . .

" />
That is never going to happen in this Forum. We don’t have the facts or inside knowledge of CEOPS, SY, Leicester Police, M3 and all the rest of them.  Without all the facts and data, including much of the PJ files not available, refusals of Freedom of Information requests etc there is no chance of coming to an informed theoretical proposition that supports abduction over death.  And that’s why the Forum has to offer up an explanation involving sea bass.
 
Because the overwhelming evidence is of her death in the apartment, which to a degree is supported by the PJ, and this from Leicester Police.
 
Assistant chief constable of Leicestershire
 
"While one or both of them may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."
 

I for one didn’t envisage this post as being a serious attempt to prove the theory of abduction, for all the reasons above. Also there is the possibility, and it’s just the possibility that any conclusion from SY that involves an abduction is arrived at because it is true and not a whitewash. This would be something this Forum, due to its ethos, will never be able to accept.  Remember, I support this ethos, its why I am here, please don't confuse observation with antagonism.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 29.06.13 7:57

@Kepharel wrote:I for one didn’t envisage this post as being a serious attempt to prove the theory of abduction, for all the reasons above. Also there is the possibility, and it’s just the possibility that any conclusion from SY that involves an abduction is arrived at because it is true and not a whitewash. This would be something this Forum, due to its ethos, will never be able to accept.  Remember, I support this ethos, its why I am here, please don't confuse observation with antagonism.

Only by testing a theory can you work out whether it is true or false. Multiple results supporting it lead one to think that the theory may be more universally applicable; a single result proving the opposite, and that is the end of your theory and you have to "purport' a new one.   That is the scientific method.  
If SY, or indeed anyone, comes to the conclusion that there was an abduction by a stranger between 9:06 and 9:14 on 3/5/7  they have to be able to spell out in some detail how it was achieved.

All prosecution cases rest on showing to the jury how the crime was carried out.  "He did it but we don't know how" is not going to secure a conviction.
So in a burglary case the opening speech will be along the lines of   "The defendant has refused to give any answers or explanation. That is his right.  
We believe, however that he entered the house by forcing open the back window - marks of a screwdriver were found on the frame, - at around 10;30pm - the next door neighbour will give evidence of hearing a noise at this time.   We then believe he climbed in across the work surface - forensic traces of rubber scuff marks were found which match the soles of his shoes - and went to the library.  Here he opened the desk - his fingerprints were found on the polished surface - and removed the cash box. The cash box itself is Exhibit 3, and was recovered from his motor vehicle by Police officers when they arrested him.


I am sure you take the point.  SY and the PJ were / are looking for evidence to trace and then prosecute the perpetrator.  They have to be able to build up the picture of what happened.
But they failed. There was simply not enough evidence, either physical or testimony, to let them start.
Indeed the evidence there is points away from an abduction, and towards the conclusions both SIOs eventually came to.

So although this thread is slightly tongue in cheek it also has a serious side.    Is it possible to fit the facts into a credible abduction scenario ?

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 8:44

Who was it who said Madeliene had been abducted, only GM and KM so everybody has to take their word for it, then the lies, time lines and confusion start, pulling others into their web of deciet. There is too much evidence imo pointing to the fact that Madeleine died in apartment 5A.

Abduction just doesn't ring true, regardless of timelines ect, so no I can't come up with a theory that this is what happened, because it didn't.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 8:51

.......and, if by some chance she was taken by a paedo stranger as the McCanns claim, the odds of her being alive now are very remote.

Yes, we know about the older children and young adults who have resurfaced after years of abuse (not being treated like princesses) but the circumstances of their disappearances were very different.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 10:05

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:.......and, if by some chance she was taken by a paedo stranger as the McCanns claim, the odds of her being alive now are very remote.

Yes, we know about the older children and young adults who have resurfaced after years of abuse (not being treated like princesses) but the circumstances of their disappearances were very different.

 Totaly agree NFWTD, but we still only have the McCann's word that an abduction took place.

Can't resist this



And this is exactly what they have done.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Kepharel on 29.06.13 10:18

I have been a long time lurker on this forum, and that’s fine, there are lots of us, both members and guests.  It was only being stung by a suggestion in the Blacksmith post that I had somehow forfeited my right to an opinion because I had never made a contribution to any discussions that triggered a suggestion by me that I should play ‘devil’s advocate’ on any aspect of the case.  PeterMac suggested the forum come up with a working proposal of the abduction theory.
 
The inference is that this can be done within the material that is currently available in the public domain, and if we are unable to put together such a proposal it means that it can’t be done, and the easily ‘provable’ proposition supporting the death of Madeleine is the only viable alternative. I expressed my doubts that, given the ethos of the Forum, anyone would accept an abduction proposition as credible however well put together on the basis of imperfect and incomplete knowledge of the facts.
 
For the sake of argument, let us suppose that the Scotland Yard review now has complete knowledge of all known facts of the case, and for reasons not known to us suggest leads and sightings of white cleaning vans and all the rest of it are being considered. We are in no position to laugh it all off as utterly ridiculous because we would be doing so in a position of ignorance.  If they come to a conclusion that an abduction had taken place, as I have said previously, it might possibly be because it is true.
 
Now if we were in full knowledge of all known facts then, just perhaps, PeterMac’s challenge would be doable and some of the more knowledgeable members of this Forum could put forward much more easily a scenario of abduction that would fit all the facts and challenge the death in the apartment theory.
 
There, I’ve had my last say on the matter and I will now retreat back to my lurker status, it’s a much quieter life J J  I will certainly think twice about posting an opinion next time……but I do love you all…you’re real sweeties all of you J J
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 10:50

I do respect all what you have said Kepharel, and it certainly gave food for thought, I have found it difficut to put together the theory of abduction, and I'm certainly not laughing off what SY may or may not find, the truth is whatever happened to Madeleine is still a mystery

Everybody has their own opinion, thats what debates are about, so don't be shy about posting yours
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White van?

Post by Seek truth on 29.06.13 11:14

"For the sake of argument, let us suppose that the Scotland Yard review now has complete knowledge of all known facts of the case, and for reasons not known to us suggest leads and sightings of white cleaning vans and all the rest of it are being considered. We are in no position to laugh it all off as utterly ridiculous because we would be doing so in a position of ignorance.  If they come to a conclusion that an abduction had taken place, as I have said previously, it might possibly be because it is true".


Are you talking about the white van that was ruled out?


Did you read Truth of the lie? Doesn't Amaral mention a white van? Looks like of no importance!

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 29.06.13 11:18

Cherry Blossom wrote:Who was it who said Madeliene had been abducted, only GM and KM so everybody has to take their word for it, . . . .
Quite so.
And the evidence that Kate gives is "I knew"  and then in italic - thus  "I knew"
And that is it.
Every other scrap of evidence relates to a report of a  missing person. It requires an intellectual leap to move from Missing to Abducted, and that leap needs some evidence.  Just something.

Then, as you say, when you start looking at the evidence, even for the report of a missing child, nothing fits together, timings are wrong, indentations on the bed are inconsistent with a child having slept there and then being removed, statements from the main players are shown to be less than frank, and the whole thing starts to disintegrate.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 12:40

@PeterMac wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:Who was it who said Madeliene had been abducted, only GM and KM so everybody has to take their word for it, . . . .
Quite so.
And the evidence that Kate gives is "I knew"  and then in italic - thus  "I knew"
And that is it.
Every other scrap of evidence relates to a report of a  missing person. It requires an intellectual leap to move from Missing to Abducted, and that leap needs some evidence.  Just something.

Then, as you say, when you start looking at the evidence, even for the report of a missing child, nothing fits together, timings are wrong, indentations on the bed are inconsistent with a child having slept there and then being removed, statements from the main players are shown to be less than frank, and the whole thing starts to disintegrate.

 Agree with your comments PeterMack,

IMO GM and KM should have to prove the abduction of their daughter, JT's sighting is not credible, this was all part of their planning to back up the abduction. Without her supposed sighting where would they stand?
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by plebgate on 29.06.13 13:12

If Mr. & Mrs. have not, in six years, even through their solicitor in a court of law been able to prove an abduction took place, then how is anybody else expected to be able to show it did.

They were all there on the night(s) and so to simply state that Maddie was abducted because they know she was - is not going to make many believe that it was so.

They need to come up with hard evidence that it happened, but so far (with the "facts" available) it is impossible imo to give a credible account of abduction within the timeline stated by the parents and their friends.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 13:26

@plebgate wrote:If Mr. & Mrs. have not, in six years, even through their solicitor in a court of law been able to prove an abduction took place, then how is anybody else expected to be able to show it did.

They were all there on the night(s) and so to simply state that Maddie was abducted because they know she was - is not going to make many believe that it was so.

They need to come up with hard evidence that it happened, but so far (with the "facts" available) it is impossible imo to give a credible account of abduction within the timeline stated by the parents and their friends.

Spot on thumbsup
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