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Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 29.06.13 13:36

Strictly speaking it is the prosecution authorities who will / may one day have to prove that an abduction took place, rather than the McCanns.  But the point is not lost.
Their duty was to give the evidence on which they based their first suspicion, and "I knew" is not quite enough.

Even if the physical evidence was sparse, as it often is, deliberately lying to the first set of police officers, and to their own friends and relatives back in the UK, was not a good start.
We recall that it took GM a whole week to come clean about using the patio door rather than the "front door, using his key".

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 29.06.13 13:53

Cherry Blossom wrote:

 Agree with your comments PeterMack, IMO GM and KM should have to prove the abduction of their daughter, JT's sighting is not credible, this was all part of their planning to back up the abduction. Without her supposed sighting where would they stand?

CherryBlossom, Without JT's sighting, they would actually be in a lot better situation, in that instance MM could have gone missing any time from 9.10 pm until 10 pm.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Praiaaa on 29.06.13 13:59

Yes, this is the complete  irony - without her 'sighting' they could have been home and dry.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 14:00

@suzyjohnson wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:

 Agree with your comments PeterMack, IMO GM and KM should have to prove the abduction of their daughter, JT's sighting is not credible, this was all part of their planning to back up the abduction. Without her supposed sighting where would they stand?

CherryBlossom, Without JT's sighting, they would actually be in a lot better situation, in that instance MM could have gone missing any time from 9.10 pm until 10 pm.
***
Correct. But then, initially, much more credibility would have been given to the Smith sighting ...
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 14:11

Châtelaine wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:

 Agree with your comments PeterMack, IMO GM and KM should have to prove the abduction of their daughter, JT's sighting is not credible, this was all part of their planning to back up the abduction. Without her supposed sighting where would they stand?

CherryBlossom, Without JT's sighting, they would actually be in a lot better situation, in that instance MM could have gone missing any time from 9.10 pm until 10 pm.
***
Correct. But then, initially, much more credibility would have been given to the Smith sighting ...

 But then again we only have GM and KM's word that she went missing that evening, what if something happened to Madeleine the day before? and the plan for moving Madeliene fit in with JT's sighting, they weren't expecting the Smith sighting.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 29.06.13 14:28

@Kepharel wrote:For the sake of argument, let us suppose that the Scotland Yard review now has complete knowledge of all known facts of the case, and for reasons not known to us suggest leads and sightings of white cleaning vans and all the rest of it are being considered. We are in no position to laugh it all off as utterly ridiculous because we would be doing so in a position of ignorance.  If they come to a conclusion that an abduction had taken place, as I have said previously, it might possibly be because it is true.

I think it's easy to think like that when you read so much of the spin that's been carefully concocted. But at the beginning the police were heavily involved with the PJ's and well informed on the avenues of investigation. I doubt there's much in the files they didn't have access to/knowledge of especially when a lot of the material was supplied by the police in the first place. An abducted child is an urgent matter. I sincerely doubt the police would have spent the last 6 years sitting on their hands if they thought there was any chance Madeleine was alive. So where are the reports of premises being stormed, international help sought, leads chased? They wouldn't have needed to have the case handed over to pursue that kind of investigation and the PJ's didn't have a problem with cooperation.

Where are the pros, why aren't they here vehemently defending the abduction, why are they passing on this golden opportunity? In my experience they act on misplaced emotion trying to defend the people they see as victims but in many cases they aren't very well clued in on the facts.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by ShuBob on 29.06.13 14:38

@Kepharel wrote:I have been a long time lurker on this forum, and that’s fine, there are lots of us, both members and guests.  It was only being stung by a suggestion in the Blacksmith post that I had somehow forfeited my right to an opinion because I had never made a contribution to any discussions that triggered a suggestion by me that I should play ‘devil’s advocate’ on any aspect of the case.  PeterMac suggested the forum come up with a working proposal of the abduction theory.
 
The inference is that this can be done within the material that is currently available in the public domain, and if we are unable to put together such a proposal it means that it can’t be done, and the easily ‘provable’ proposition supporting the death of Madeleine is the only viable alternative. I expressed my doubts that, given the ethos of the Forum, anyone would accept an abduction proposition as credible however well put together on the basis of imperfect and incomplete knowledge of the facts.
 
For the sake of argument, let us suppose that the Scotland Yard review now has complete knowledge of all known facts of the case, and for reasons not known to us suggest leads and sightings of white cleaning vans and all the rest of it are being considered. We are in no position to laugh it all off as utterly ridiculous because we would be doing so in a position of ignorance.  If they come to a conclusion that an abduction had taken place, as I have said previously, it might possibly be because it is true.
 
Now if we were in full knowledge of all known facts then, just perhaps, PeterMac’s challenge would be doable and some of the more knowledgeable members of this Forum could put forward much more easily a scenario of abduction that would fit all the facts and challenge the death in the apartment theory.
 
There, I’ve had my last say on the matter and I will now retreat back to my lurker status, it’s a much quieter life J J  I will certainly think twice about posting an opinion next time……but I do love you all…you’re real sweeties all of you J J

I think the point is that whatever happened, it did not happen the way the McCanns claim it did.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Grande Finale on 30.06.13 3:09

Cherry Blossom wrote:"But then again we only have GM and KM's word that she went missing that evening, what if something happened to Madeleine the day before?"


funny you should say that !Ooooh! makes me think of Scandinavian man Wednesday 2nd May in the evening, lurking in the stairwell near the laundry pile.Swapping incriminating sheets for a set less dirty maybe?Reported to PJ for suspicious behaviour by the OC laundry man and even then there is (*at least a 2 hour discrepency*)Remember this is at least a full 24 hours before the MAIN game kicked off ?

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Grande Finale on 30.06.13 3:52

@ShuBob wrote:"I think the point is that whatever happened, it did not happen the way the McCanns claim it did."

The Mccaa's have spent six years selling the idea that they weren't there when IT happened.

It is therefore unbelievable that they have spent six years (minus 30mins) telling the world what IT was.


How would they know? when they weren't bl**dy there !!




















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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by lynsi001 on 03.07.13 2:22

@suzyjohnson wrote:
@lynsi001 wrote:Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

 Yes, that is a possibility lynsi001. Yet, if that were the case, how bad would that make the Tapas group, to be lying about timings and about the checks made if a child's life were really in danger?

I dont think there lying about the checks i just dont think the times are accurate because what are the odds everytime someone goes to do a check someone notes the time? and what might seem like regularly prob isnt esp when your drinking/chatting.
I cant really think of anything as bad as being falsely accused for the last 6 years of covering up your own daughters death tbh.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by AskTheDogsSandra on 03.07.13 6:44

@lynsi001 wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@lynsi001 wrote:Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

 Yes, that is a possibility lynsi001. Yet, if that were the case, how bad would that make the Tapas group, to be lying about timings and about the checks made if a child's life were really in danger?

I dont think there lying about the checks i just dont think the times are accurate because what are the odds everytime someone goes to do a check someone notes the time? and what might seem like regularly prob isnt esp when your drinking/chatting.
I cant really think of anything as bad as being falsely accused for the last 6 years of covering up your own daughters death tbh.

 Nor could I. And if I'd been falsely accused I would do everything possible to put that right...like taking part in a reconstruction, answering questions, begging for the investigation to remain open so the police could find out whose blood and death scent was found behind the sofa and in hire car and in various other places including Mrs McCann's clothes. Shocked 
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 03.07.13 7:40

@AskTheDogsSandra wrote:

I cant really think of anything as bad as being falsely accused for the last 6 years of covering up your own daughters death tbh.

 Nor could I. And if I'd been falsely accused I would do everything possible to put that right...like taking part in a reconstruction, answering questions, begging for the investigation to remain open so the police could find out whose blood and death scent was found behind the sofa and in hire car and in various other places including Mrs McCann's clothes. Shocked 
And explaining why they lied so often and about so many different things to so many people and for so long

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 03.07.13 9:12

Nobody wants to believe that apparently caring parents were involved in the disappearance of their child. 

However, it is simply not possible to believe that it could have happened as they claim and the way that they have behaved ever since - setting up a money-making enterprise within days, hardly able to contain their mirth at times in interviews, their rage and spite towards people trying to establish what happened, etc - only adds to the disbelief.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by marconi on 03.07.13 9:15

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Nobody wants to believe that apparently caring parents were involved in the disappearance of their child. 

However, it is simply not possible to believe that it could have happened as they claim and the way that they have behaved ever since - setting up a money-making enterprise within days, hardly able to contain their mirth at times in interviews, their rage and spite towards people trying to establish what happened, etc - only adds to the disbelief.

 You are right, No Fate Worse...

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 03.07.13 10:06

The thing is that if the McCanns and Tapas group do not know Madeleine's whereabouts / what happened to her then refusing to take part in a reconstruction or telling lies about anything to cover up say neglect on May 3rd could potentially leave Madeleine in terrible danger. How can the police hope to find her if they don't get a truthful account of events?

GM witness statement 4/5/2007 (McCann Files) ' ......... As usual, every half hour and considering that the restaurant was close to the apartment, the deponent or his wife went to check if the children were ok. Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked .........' 

GM witness statement 10/5/2007 (McCann files) '........ At 21H05 ....... the deponent left the table to go check on his children. He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide .........'

However, on the other hand, if they do all know for a fact that Madeleine is beyond help then (in that respect at least) not telling the truth wouldn't matter.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by marconi on 03.07.13 10:56

@suzyjohnson wrote:The thing is that if the McCanns and Tapas group do not know Madeleine's whereabouts / what happened to her then refusing to take part in a reconstruction or telling lies about anything to cover up say neglect on May 3rd could potentially leave Madeleine in terrible danger. How can the police hope to find her if they don't get a truthful account of events?

GM witness statement 4/5/2007 (McCann Files) ' ......... As usual, every half hour and considering that the restaurant was close to the apartment, the deponent or his wife went to check if the children were ok. Thus, at 9.05 pm, the deponent entered the club, using his key, the door being locked .........' 

GM witness statement 10/5/2007 (McCann files) '........ At 21H05 ....... the deponent left the table to go check on his children. He walked the normal route up to the back door, which being open he only had to slide .........'

However, on the other hand, if they do all know for a fact that Madeleine is beyond help then (in that respect at least) not telling the truth wouldn't matter.

 Suzjohnson, don't worry. There must be several people beyond Tapas Team that know about the whereabouts of the body. Once Amaral said that Kate was back in Luz "to be near the body/grave."
Besides  every police is used to manage confessions out of suspects. There must be Tapas who desperately want to clean up their names, they will prefer to tell they protected the McCanns than to be seen as paedophiles. It seems that Tanner and O'Brian wanted to change their statemens in September 2007, according to an English lawyer to a Spanish newspaper(see The Maddy case files).They felt under pressure of the McCanns and they feared the political lobby around the parents. Much later, in 2011, we heard that it had to do with the News of the World that blackmailed Blair and the Brown administration.
I still wonder why Mrs. Hubbard came to PdL, to meet Kate.
At least there is that English lawyer who must have heard the truth. I don't know if he is obliged to tell it to the police. If he is, he told it already.
And I am shocked that Justin McGuiness said that she believes that there was no  abduction and that Madeleine died victim of paedophilia.  She is corageous.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Newintown on 03.07.13 12:33

@Grande Finale wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:"But then again we only have GM and KM's word that she went missing that evening, what if something happened to Madeleine the day before?"


funny you should say that !Ooooh! makes me think of Scandinavian man Wednesday 2nd May in the evening, lurking in the stairwell near the laundry pile.Swapping incriminating sheets for a set less dirty maybe?Reported to PJ for suspicious behaviour by the OC laundry man and even then there is (*at least a 2 hour discrepency*)Remember this is at least a full 24 hours before the MAIN game kicked off ?

I believe I remember reading somewhere that the OC said that they didn't have a request for clean linen that evening, so the fact that a man was seen hanging around the stairwell (may be to swap linen) would make sense.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Newintown on 03.07.13 13:03

Cherry Blossom wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
Cherry Blossom wrote:

 Agree with your comments PeterMack, IMO GM and KM should have to prove the abduction of their daughter, JT's sighting is not credible, this was all part of their planning to back up the abduction. Without her supposed sighting where would they stand?

CherryBlossom, Without JT's sighting, they would actually be in a lot better situation, in that instance MM could have gone missing any time from 9.10 pm until 10 pm.
***
Correct. But then, initially, much more credibility would have been given to the Smith sighting ...

 But then again we only have GM and KM's word that she went missing that evening, what if something happened to Madeleine the day before? and the plan for moving Madeliene fit in with JT's sighting, they weren't expecting the Smith sighting.[/quote]

Exactly, that's why the McCanns or CM never mentioned it for a long time after it became known about and avoided it like the plague.  The Smith family were even interviewed by Brian Kennedy, if I recall.  He wasn't part of the police investigation or was it to glean information out of Mr Smith as to what he had actually seen to put the McCanns one step in front of the pollice when they were going to be asked about the sighting.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Seek truth on 04.07.13 8:38

@lynsi001 wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@lynsi001 wrote:Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

 Yes, that is a possibility lynsi001. Yet, if that were the case, how bad would that make the Tapas group, to be lying about timings and about the checks made if a child's life were really in danger?

I dont think there lying about the checks i just dont think the times are accurate because what are the odds everytime someone goes to do a check someone notes the time? and what might seem like regularly prob isnt esp when your drinking/chatting.
I cant really think of anything as bad as being falsely accused for the last 6 years of covering up your own daughters death tbh.
Lynsi, believes it gave the abductor more time.

The times couldn't be accurate obviously but let's not just decide only on this.

If you can't think of anything as bad as being falsely accused, I can.
Isn't loosing your child worse than being a victim who has been wrongly accused?

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by lj on 04.07.13 14:16

@Seek truth wrote:
@lynsi001 wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@lynsi001 wrote:Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

 Yes, that is a possibility lynsi001. Yet, if that were the case, how bad would that make the Tapas group, to be lying about timings and about the checks made if a child's life were really in danger?

I dont think there lying about the checks i just dont think the times are accurate because what are the odds everytime someone goes to do a check someone notes the time? and what might seem like regularly prob isnt esp when your drinking/chatting.
I cant really think of anything as bad as being falsely accused for the last 6 years of covering up your own daughters death tbh.
Lynsi, believes it gave the abductor more time.

The times couldn't be accurate obviously but let's not just decide only on this.

If you can't think of anything as bad as being falsely accused, I can.
Isn't loosing your child worse than being a victim who has been wrongly accused?


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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Woofer on 11.07.13 15:16

Talking of credible scenarios, as I`m not very good at taking everything into account, can anyone come up with one where an already dead child was abducted?  This would explain how TM can believe what they`re saying about abduction, but not admitting she was already dead.
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by Guest on 11.07.13 19:51

@Woofer wrote:Talking of credible scenarios, as I`m not very good at taking everything into account, can anyone come up with one where an already dead child was abducted?  This would explain how TM can believe what they`re saying about abduction, but not admitting she was already dead.
***
Gerry, and he must know ... , is convinced that she was ALIVE when she was abducted.
Go figure [pardon my French]!
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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 11.07.13 22:03

@lynsi001 wrote:
@suzyjohnson wrote:
@lynsi001 wrote:Mrs Fenn said she said she heard a child crying for ages on the 1st so perhaps the children weren’t being checked as regularly as they say? that would account for their need to make a timeline and would also give an abductor more time.

 Yes, that is a possibility lynsi001. Yet, if that were the case, how bad would that make the Tapas group, to be lying about timings and about the checks made if a child's life were really in danger?

I dont think there lying about the checks i just dont think the times are accurate because what are the odds everytime someone goes to do a check someone notes the time? and what might seem like regularly prob isnt esp when your drinking/chatting.
I cant really think of anything as bad as being falsely accused for the last 6 years of covering up your own daughters death tbh
 
I can see what you mean lynsi001, however, in the event that a child has been abducted, it is vital for everyone in the group to remember everything to the best of their ability, a child's life may depend on it. Yet, for a start, there is proof, that GM told a lie about going in by the front door of 5A, which he later admits was actually the open patio doors.

Then, Mrs Fenn heard crying for well over an hour on the 1st. If on the 3rd the Tapas group had given an abductor this much of an opportunity, they needed to own up to this immediately.

If, on the other hand, there was fairly regular checking, I can understand that for each individual it might be difficult to give the exact time of events, but these same people (who are telling us that they have no idea what happened to MM after 9.15pm on 3rd May) refuse to take part in a reconstruction of events which makes me very suspicious, because to my mind anyone who was concerned about the welfare of a little girl would do so.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by PeterMac on 13.07.13 18:13

@suzyjohnson wrote: Yet, for a start, there is proof, that GM told a lie about going in by the front door of 5A, which he later admits was actually the open patio doors..

Look on the other thread.
But what if what he said first was correct, and the change of statement, which was a week later (10th) was the attempt to retro fit.
We can then discount KM's entry point, as she too will have gone round to the front door, and we know the other alleged visit is just stupid as it does not place M in the room.
Its only purpose therefore is to show the patio doors being open.
And if they weren't then a whole different scenario come into play.

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Re: Can you come up with a credible scenario ? Competition opens today.

Post by suzyjohnson on 13.07.13 22:05

@Woofer wrote:Talking of credible scenarios, as I`m not very good at taking everything into account, can anyone come up with one where an already dead child was abducted?  This would explain how TM can believe what they`re saying about abduction, but not admitting she was already dead.

 Woofer, such a scenario would be impossible. GM states that he saw Madeleine at 9.05pm. KM found that she was missing by 10pm. Even if MM was abducted later than the JT sighting, therefore a maximum of 55 mins, there still wouldn't be enough time necessary for the cadaver dog to alert to. 

PeterMac. for the purposes of what I was saying it wouldn't make a difference whether the lie was that GM went in the front door or the back door (unless of course GM made a genuine mistake in this regard). Police searching for an abducted child, need to hear the exact truth from everyone involved to be in with a chance of finding them, hopefully to be able to save a child's life. For the parents, or those involved, to lie would be reckless behaviour, unless of course they knew differently, that there was no possibility of recovering that child alive.

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